Water baptism

[ByTheSpirit]

How can it be water in Rom 6? That would mean people are being baptized, as unsaved unbelievers.

In other words, if they were not raised up with Christ until they came out of the body of water, it would mean they were dead right before they were submerged. It wouldn't make sense. One had to first believe, before he is baptized.


Also, to be baptized into his death was literal in a spiritual sense, or else the life we are now in is not literal. So Paul was talking about our actual dying and rising spiritually, there is no room for water in Rom 6.

This isn't water either, into Christ is literal, not symbolic.


Gal 3:27 For as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ.

I agree with you in a sense. I do. Allow me to point you to Colossians 2:11-13. It says that we were dead in our trespasses and uncircumcision of flesh (referring to the old nature; v13). The obvious implication is as long as we are uncircumcised, we are dead. Well thats where vv11-12 come in. They say that we are given the circumcision of Christ, which is the removal of the body of flesh, when we are baptized.

Now again, that could be open to debate as to which baptism is referred to, but clearly Paul had the two linked. I happen to view it as water baptism. That when a person has faith, they go down into the water and come up ready to walk in new life. But that's just my understanding of it.

Without faith, the water does no good.

 

[Frogster]

if we take water out of rom 6, it makes sense. Yes, at conversion in an instant, we took on Christs' death burial, and resurrection. We were baptized into him literally.

If 6 was about water, that would totally mean, that this can only happen near a basin of water, or a tub, or a river, and again, that would mean the person is only a believer upon coming out of the body of water, not before, it would totally bind water to the salvation moment, not good.

6 can't be about water.


It is all about being in union literally with Christ.

 

[Frogster]

I agree with you in a sense. I do. Allow me to point you to Colossians 2:11-13. It says that we were dead in our trespasses and uncircumcision of flesh (referring to the old nature; v13). The obvious implication is as long as we are uncircumcised, we are dead. Well thats where vv11-12 come in. They say that we are given the circumcision of Christ, which is the removal of the body of flesh, when we are baptized.

Now again, that could be open to debate as to which baptism is referred to, but clearly Paul had the two linked. I happen to view it as water baptism. That when a person has faith, they go down into the water and come up ready to walk in new life. But that's just my understanding of it.

Without faith, the water does no good.

But the removal of the flesh, came by the Spirit it says, who does not need water.

It also says in Rom 6:4, and Col 2, about being rasied by the father, again, why does water have to fit in there?

If we take this verse as water, then one can't be raised by the Father until he is in water.


Col 2:12 having been buried with him in baptism, in which you were also raised with him through faith in the powerful working of God, who raised him from the dead.

You're tying water into this too much...

 

[Frogster]

I agree with you in a sense. I do. Allow me to point you to Colossians 2:11-13. It says that we were dead in our trespasses and uncircumcision of flesh (referring to the old nature; v13). The obvious implication is as long as we are uncircumcised, we are dead. Well thats where vv11-12 come in. They say that we are given the circumcision of Christ, which is the removal of the body of flesh, when we are baptized.

Now again, that could be open to debate as to which baptism is referred to, but clearly Paul had the two linked. I happen to view it as water baptism. That when a person has faith, they go down into the water and come up ready to walk in new life. But that's just my understanding of it.

Without faith, the water does no good.

But you are tying water into this to the point where it seems salvific, no water, no sin removal?

Paul said the cross was where the body of sin was destroyed in Rom 6:6.

 

[Frogster]

In other words, a born again guy, who got saved, isn't really raised up yet, because he did not get raised after a water submersion? He is not really in new life yet, this new convert?


Rom 6:4 We were buried therefore with him by baptism into death, in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, we too might walk in newness of life.

 

[ByTheSpirit]

In other words, a born again guy, who got saved, isn't really raised up yet, because he did not get raised after a water submersion? He is not really in new life yet, this new convert?


Rom 6:4 We were buried therefore with him by baptism into death, in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, we too might walk in newness of life.

as I said, it really depends on what "baptism" is being referred to there... I know of 4 spoken of in the New Testament.

Baptism of:
Water
Spirit
Death
Fire

I just choose to view it as water baptism since that was the main one spoken of in Acts, the only Holy Spirit inspired church history book in existance. It does make for an interesting discussion.

 

[geetrue]

Good points, I can see where you are coming from. But allow me to ask a question. The text doesn't say it's not water baptism either. Typically in the NT when "baptism" is mentioned, it's by and large in the context of water baptism. So I tend to lean towards Romans 6 is referencing water.

I disagree that the word "baptism" is about water.

Here's a suggestion as a CF SF/C forum we should put aside our petty difference and concentrate on what makes us Spirit Filled.

Close this controversial thread and start one about the baptism of fire that Jesus speaks of: Baptism of fire - What does the Bible say?

Everyone who becomes saved through the Baptism of the Holy Spirit (Titus 3:5) will also be baptized by fire as Matthew 3:11 says.

"Fire" in the Bible is often used to refer to trouble or trials that a believer may experience.

1 Peter 1:7 That the trial of your faith, being much more precious than of gold that perisheth, though it be tried with fire, might be found unto praise and honour and glory at the appearing of Jesus Christ:

1 Peter 4:12 Beloved, think it not strange concerning the fiery trial which is to try you, as though some strange thing happened unto you: 13 But rejoice, inasmuch as ye are partakers of Christ's sufferings; that, when his glory shall be revealed, ye may be glad also with exceeding joy.


In this life, those who become saved are called not only to believe, but also to suffer for Christ's sake. Philippians 1:29 For unto you it is given in the behalf of Christ, not only to believe on him, but also to suffer for his sake;


In Mark 10:38,39 Jesus refers to His crucifixion and calls it His "baptism" and says that the disciples will be baptized with the same "baptism".

Mark 10:38 But Jesus said unto them, Ye know not what ye ask: can ye drink of the cup that I drink of? and be baptized with the baptism that I am baptized with? 39 And they said unto him, We can. And Jesus said unto them, Ye shall indeed drink of the cup that I drink of; and with the baptism that I am baptized withal shall ye be baptized:

 

[ByTheSpirit]

Sorry but no I'm not closing this "controversial" thread.

You aren't "saved" through the Baptism of the Holy Spirit either, so if that is what the forum rules say that needs to be fixed. That has Oneness written all over it, especially since a large portion here believe if you are BitHS you will speak in tongues.

So that is just as controversial as what you claim I am.

So sorry, I'm not closing this thread

 

[Biblicist]

Sorry but no I'm not closing this "controversial" thread.

Good, don't even think about closing it!

This thread needs to keep going for a while as many of the views that I have been reading over the past few weeks seem to be based more on "hope" than substance.

You aren't "saved" through the Baptism of the Holy Spirit either, so if that is what the forum rules say that needs to be fixed. That has Oneness written all over it, especially since a large portion here believe if you are BitHS you will speak in tongues.

So that is just as controversial as what you claim I am.

Well, we are at least saved by Grace where every new initiate then receives the Holy Spirit and then goes forward for water baptism.

 

[Biblicist]

Oh well, as it will be next year in about five minutes for those of us who are on the East Coast of Australia, then I think that I might sign off until next year.

Of course, for our New Zealand friends it was next year about three hours ago, but of course, it might take our Kiwi brothers and sisters a few days before they actually realise this.

Happy New Year!

 

[Frogster]

No water mentioned with these conversions.


Acts 5:14 And more than ever believers were added to the Lord, multitudes of both men and women,

Acts 11:21 And the hand of the Lord was with them, and a great number who believed turned to the Lord.

Acts 11:24 for he was a good man, full of the Holy Spirit and of faith. And a great many people were added to the Lord.

Acts 13:12 Then the proconsul believed, when he saw what had occurred, for he was astonished at the teaching of the Lord.Acts

13:48 And when the Gentiles heard this, they began rejoicing and glorifying the word of the Lord, and as many as were appointed to eternal life believed.

Acts 14:1 Now at Iconium they entered together into the Jewish synagogue and spoke in such a way that a great number of both Jews and Greeks believed.

They went back, and still no water baptism..

14:22 strengthening the souls of the disciples, encouraging them to continue in the faith, and saying that through many tribulations we must enter the kingdom of God.

Acts 16:5 So the churches were strengthened in the faith, and they increased in numbers daily.

Acts 17:4 And some of them were persuaded and joined Paul and Silas, as did a great many of the devout Greeks and not a few of the leading women.

Acts 17:12 Many of them therefore believed, with not a few Greek women of high standing as well as men

Acts 17:34 But some men joined him and believed, among whom also were Dionysius the Areopagite and a woman named Damaris and others with them.

Acts 19:18 Also many of those who were now believers came, confessing and divulging their practices.

 

[Always in His Presence]

Has anyone ever noted that there is no record of the Disiples ever being baptized.

Why is it mentioned no place in scripture?

 

[Always in His Presence]

The great Apostle Paul, who penned 2/3rds of the NT, planted churches on three continents, spread and preached the Gospel to the vast majority of the known world, argued the cause of the Divinity of Christ and Salvation to every known major religion and the Gentiles, who developed church leadership baptized exactly how many people?

14 I thank God that I baptized none of you except Crispus and Gaius, 15 lest anyone should say that I had baptized in my own name. 16 Yes, I also baptized the household of Stephanas. Besides, I do not know whether I baptized any other.

Did you catch that? "I thank God that I baptized none of you"

WHAT!!!!!!!

If you have to be baptized to be saved, Paul is saying he thanks God that none got saved from his ministry.

 

[Edial]

Has anyone ever noted that there is no record of the Disiples ever being baptized.

Why is it mentioned no place in scripture?

... in all the years of creating Bible studies I have never noticed that!
Ha! Very interesting point.

However, it was pointed very strongly that although Jesus stopped baptizing people due to Pharisees "keeping track" he had the disciples continue baptizing others.
So the water baptism is very important.

Thanks,
Ed

 

[Edial]

No water mentioned with these conversions.


Acts 5:14 And more than ever believers were added to the Lord, multitudes of both men and women,

Acts 11:21 And the hand of the Lord was with them, and a great number who believed turned to the Lord.

Acts 11:24 for he was a good man, full of the Holy Spirit and of faith. And a great many people were added to the Lord.

Acts 13:12 Then the proconsul believed, when he saw what had occurred, for he was astonished at the teaching of the Lord.Acts

13:48 And when the Gentiles heard this, they began rejoicing and glorifying the word of the Lord, and as many as were appointed to eternal life believed.

Acts 14:1 Now at Iconium they entered together into the Jewish synagogue and spoke in such a way that a great number of both Jews and Greeks believed.

They went back, and still no water baptism..

14:22 strengthening the souls of the disciples, encouraging them to continue in the faith, and saying that through many tribulations we must enter the kingdom of God.

Acts 16:5 So the churches were strengthened in the faith, and they increased in numbers daily.

Acts 17:4 And some of them were persuaded and joined Paul and Silas, as did a great many of the devout Greeks and not a few of the leading women.

Acts 17:12 Many of them therefore believed, with not a few Greek women of high standing as well as men

Acts 17:34 But some men joined him and believed, among whom also were Dionysius the Areopagite and a woman named Damaris and others with them.

Acts 19:18 Also many of those who were now believers came, confessing and divulging their practices.

True.
But water baptism is mentioned all over the NT as well as post resurrection of Christ.
And Peter actually made it a point to say it is a water.
And Paul made it a point to say there in only ONE Baptism.

The Lutheran views is the best view on this.

Water Baptism and Baptism of the Holy Spirit MAY happen at the same time, but not necessarily at the same time.

To remove or completely symbolize away water baptism into something so symbolic that it is no different than a celebration of a sort, is as foreign to the Bible as theory of evolution.

We should not be de-evolving water baptism in something it is not.

Thanks,
In Christ,
Ed

 

[ByTheSpirit]

Has anyone ever noted that there is no record of the Disiples ever being baptized.

Why is it mentioned no place in scripture?

That might be true but it gives clear indications a couple were baptized and if 2 were then you can safely assume the others were at one point as well.

In John 1 it records John the Baptist speaking to "two of his disciples" about Jesus. NO WAY were those 2 disciples of John that became disciples of Jesus not baptized.

Why must the scripture mention all things before people accept them?

The scriptures do not say Paul spoke in tongues when he received the Holy Spirit yet most in this forum accept that as fact, why? The scriptures only state the scales came off his eyes and he could see. Nothing about Paul speaking in tongues until he admits it in his letter to the Corinthians.

 

[ByTheSpirit]

True.
But water baptism is mentioned all over the NT as well as post resurrection of Christ.
And Peter actually made it a point to say it is a water.
And Paul made it a point to say there in only ONE Baptism.

The Lutheran views is the best view on this.

Water Baptism and Baptism of the Holy Spirit MAY happen at the same time, but not necessarily at the same time.

To remove or completely symbolize away water baptism into something so symbolic that it is no different than a celebration of a sort, is as foreign to the Bible as theory of evolution.

We should not be de-evolving water baptism in something it is not.

Thanks,
In Christ,
Ed

 

[ByTheSpirit]

The great Apostle Paul, who penned 2/3rds of the NT, planted churches on three continents, spread and preached the Gospel to the vast majority of the known world, argued the cause of the Divinity of Christ and Salvation to every known major religion and the Gentiles, who developed church leadership baptized exactly how many people?

14 I thank God that I baptized none of you except Crispus and Gaius, 15 lest anyone should say that I had baptized in my own name. 16 Yes, I also baptized the household of Stephanas. Besides, I do not know whether I baptized any other.

Did you catch that? "I thank God that I baptized none of you"

WHAT!!!!!!!

If you have to be baptized to be saved, Paul is saying he thanks God that none got saved from his ministry.

except he admits he did baptize some...

and we know that he ALWAYS had some companions with him on his travels, whether Barnabbas, or Timothy, or Silas, etc.

Because he didnt baptize doesn't mean those others didn't...

Also if you read a little of the book of Acts you'll notice Paul baptized many people in his travels...

 

[Biblicist]

The great Apostle Paul, who penned 2/3rds of the NT, planted churches on three continents, spread and preached the Gospel to the vast majority of the known world, argued the cause of the Divinity of Christ and Salvation to every known major religion and the Gentiles, who developed church leadership baptized exactly how many people?

14 I thank God that I baptized none of you except Crispus and Gaius, 15 lest anyone should say that I had baptized in my own name. 16 Yes, I also baptized the household of Stephanas. Besides, I do not know whether I baptized any other.

Did you catch that? "I thank God that I baptized none of you"

WHAT!!!!!!!

If you have to be baptized to be saved, Paul is saying he thanks God that none got saved from his ministry.

(1Co 1:11-16 NASB)

11 For I have been informed concerning you, my brethren, by Chloe's people, that there are quarrels among you. 12 Now I mean this, that each one of you is saying, "I am of Paul," and "I of Apollos," and "I of Cephas," and "I of Christ." 13 Has Christ been divided? Paul was not crucified for you, was he? Or were you baptized in the name of Paul?
14 I thank God that I baptized none of you except Crispus and Gaius, 15 so that no one would say you were baptized in my name. 16 Now I did baptize also the household of Stephanas; beyond that, I do not know whether I baptized any other.​

I would be more inclined to say that this particular passage tells us that Paul certainly sees water baptism as a fundamental obligation for the Believer which is why he has used it as an example. Paul has chosen water baptism as it is the primary indicator of an individual’s obedience and commitment and the last thing that he ever wanted to do was to have anyone focus themselves on the person of Paul and not Christ. Paul could not have picked a better example and it is a reminder to us all of the obligation for every believer to show their commitment through water baptism.

 

[Biblicist]

No water mentioned with these conversions.


Acts 5:14 And more than ever believers were added to the Lord, multitudes of both men and women,

Acts 11:21 And the hand of the Lord was with them, and a great number who believed turned to the Lord.

Acts 11:24 for he was a good man, full of the Holy Spirit and of faith. And a great many people were added to the Lord.

Acts 13:12 Then the proconsul believed, when he saw what had occurred, for he was astonished at the teaching of the Lord.Acts

13:48 And when the Gentiles heard this, they began rejoicing and glorifying the word of the Lord, and as many as were appointed to eternal life believed.

Acts 14:1 Now at Iconium they entered together into the Jewish synagogue and spoke in such a way that a great number of both Jews and Greeks believed.

They went back, and still no water baptism..

14:22 strengthening the souls of the disciples, encouraging them to continue in the faith, and saying that through many tribulations we must enter the kingdom of God.

Acts 16:5 So the churches were strengthened in the faith, and they increased in numbers daily.

Acts 17:4 And some of them were persuaded and joined Paul and Silas, as did a great many of the devout Greeks and not a few of the leading women.

Acts 17:12 Many of them therefore believed, with not a few Greek women of high standing as well as men

Acts 17:34 But some men joined him and believed, among whom also were Dionysius the Areopagite and a woman named Damaris and others with them.

Acts 19:18 Also many of those who were now believers came, confessing and divulging their practices.

I don't see any confessions of guilt or with any acknowledgement that Jesus is Lord; does this mean that we only need to 'believe" and not confess Jesus as Lord or for that matter, could it be that we don't really need to bother with the Baptism in the Holy Spirit and as for speaking in tongues...