Water baptism

[Edial]

People tell me the thief on the cross wasn't baptized and yet reached heaven so that proves that we don't need baptism really ever to be saved.

Let me point a couple things that I think are wrong with that view.

1) The Bible says that all Jerusalem, Judea, and the surrounding areas were going to John to be baptized (Matthew 3:5-6). This thief could well have been among the multitudes that were baptized by John and then for whatever reason fell away for a time. We know the purpose of the baptism of John was to prepare people to receive the Messiah who was coming. So while this is an assumption, it really is an assumption either way. Yes the Bible doesn't mention his baptism, but it also doesn't say he wasn't baptism either. Kinda like saying, "Well the Bible doesn't mention dinosaurs so the dinosaurs never existed." Its a fallacy argument.

Assuming he was baptized by John, John's baptism was not in the name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit.
It was a sign of repentance.
He was never baptized into Christ.
Some were baptized into Moses ...
1Cor 10:2 They were all baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea.

Many in the OT were baptized into demons and other gods. Jews were baptized into their teachers.

Baptism IN CHRIST is the only baptism that matters.

All the rest have another purpose.

2) What is the gospel message? Jesus died, was buried, and crucified (1 Corinthians 15:3-4). So how could this thief have believed according to the gospel if Jesus hadn't even died yet when he asked for "remembrance"? He couldn't. We know from several accounts in the gospels that Jesus had authority to forgive sins while on Earth. That is merely what Jesus was doing on the cross, as he had done several times before. This thief on the cross was redeemed under the Old Covenant as were those who came before. Actually, in all likelihood, this thief on the cross was the last person to ever receive redemption in such a way. Sure Jesus died before this thief did in all likelihood, but no way was Jesus buried before or resurrected before. So the thief could not be a "born again" believer in that sense of the word, like you and me.

So using the thief on the cross as proof that baptism isn't necessary ever is really a misplaced position.

Of course he believed, because he asked to be with Jesus in His Kingdom.
What do you think belief is? Belief in the Gospel message or Jesus who IS the Gospel message?

 

[Frogster]

Good stuff Ed! Thanks for contributing.

I did a study on Romans 6-7 with this particular subject in mind; baptism of course. I found that Paul placed A LOT of importance on baptism as the point of crucifying the flesh. When he says reckon yourselves dead to sin and alive to God, that is a reference to baptism as in "You've been baptized with Christ, now as he died to sin and lived for God, you should too" type thing, culminating with Romans 7:4-6.

Just my thoughts on that particular area. Its the way I read it anyway

Well, Paul also said he did not come to baptize in 1 Cor, couldn't remember who he did baptize, other than a few, and also water (OP title) is not needed to be in the Romans 6 conversion experience. Romans 6, is in fact, the born again description detailed for us.

 

[ByTheSpirit]

Assuming he was baptized by John, John's baptism was not in the name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit.
It was a sign of repentance.
He was never baptized into Christ.
Some were baptized into Moses ...
1Cor 10:2 They were all baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea.

Many in the OT were baptized into demons and other gods. Jews were baptized into their teachers.

Baptism IN CHRIST is the only baptism that matters.

All the rest have another purpose.


Of course he believed, because he asked to be with Jesus in His Kingdom.
What do you think belief is? Belief in the Gospel message or Jesus who IS the Gospel message?

Good points and well taken. I don't think I said he didn't believe, just merely he couldn't believe in a "full gospel" context of 1 Cor 15:3-4. Therefore he couldn't be a "believer" as we know the term, born again or whatever. He obviously believed. I may have just worded that post poorly.

 

[Frogster]

It sounds like you are in a cult wanting all of us to submit to you views.

No, this is a discussion thread, that has strong feelings, and our bro should not be identified as a cult person.

This issue is an old one, debated for centuries.

 

[ByTheSpirit]

Well, Paul also said he did not come to baptize in 1 Cor, couldn't remember who he did baptize, other than a few, and also water (OP title) is not needed to be in the Romans 6 conversion experience. Romans 6, is in fact, the born again description detailed for us.

Wow, haven't seen you around in a while. Good to see you

To our post, I will really only hit on the Corinthians part. He did say that he wasn't sent to baptize, but we also know that Paul travelled with other people in his group. It's very possible he had them baptize converts in the same way Jesus had the disciples baptize (John 4:1-3)

 

[FoundInGrace]

Actually they were only closed because it was determined I was speaking out of the rules of the forum. I was told I could reopen a thread if it conformed to the new rules, which it does

Out of the rules because you basically told someone they were going to hell because they werent baptised in a very cold and harsh way aswell. It was awful.

 

[ByTheSpirit]

Out of the rules because you basically told someone they were going to hell because they werent baptised in a very cold and harsh way aswell. It was awful.

I said nothing of the sort.

I said if a person willingly refuses to be baptized at any point in their life they are being disobedient. What the reprocussions for that are I didn't say, nor did I imply anything. I simply said there would be reprocussions for disobedience. There are reprocussions for disobedience. God didn't miraculously change from the Old Covenant to the New. Yes we who believe are saved, but if you are disobedient there will be penalties for that.

A whole lot was read into that, and is still being so apparently, that was never implied.

Now do you care to make a postivie contribution to the topic or do you continue to insist on trying (I do mean trying) to tear me down?

 

[FoundInGrace]

I said nothing of the sort.

I said if a person willingly refuses to be baptized at any point in their life they are being disobedient. What the reprocussions for that are I didn't say, nor did I imply anything. I simply said there would be reprocussions for disobedience. There are reprocussions for disobedience. God didn't miraculously change from the Old Covenant to the New. Yes we who believe are saved, but if you are disobedient there will be penalties for that.

A whole lot was read into that, and is still being so apparently, that was never implied.

Now do you care to make a postivie contribution to the topic or do you continue to insist on trying (I do mean trying) to tear me down?

That was not the implication you gave to that person, you implied they were going to hell if they werent baptised. I wonder what the spiritual repercussions in that persons walk with the Lord are now because of your disobedience to the Holy Spirit in how you handled that person daring to be honest. It could have been a growing time but instead you shut them down and treated them cold. It was awful.

 

[ByTheSpirit]

That was not the implication you gave to that person, you implied they were going to hell if they werent baptised. I wonder what the spiritual repercussions in that persons walk with the Lord are now because of your disobedience to the Holy Spirit in how you handled that person daring to be honest.

Perhaps you can start a new thread on how evil I am. This thread is not for that. I will have to report you if you persist because it's getting old really. Let's chat about baptism. I am willing to discuss it if you were willing.

 

[Frogster]

Wow, haven't seen you around in a while. Good to see you

To our post, I will really only hit on the Corinthians part. He did say that he wasn't sent to baptize, but we also know that Paul travelled with other people in his group. It's very possible he had them baptize converts in the same way Jesus had the disciples baptize (John 4:1-3)

Greetings amigo..

But do ya see that rom 6, did not need water? If it did, then that would have to mean, that everyone born again, only had this, the Rom 6 teaching experience, only at water baptism.

Now baptized into the Spirit is important, and again, takes no water.


1 Cor 12:13 For in one Spirit we were all baptized into one body—Jews or Greeks, slaves or free—and all were made to drink of one Spirit.

 

[FoundInGrace]

Perhaps you can start a new thread on how evil I am. This thread is not for that. I will have to report you if you persist because it's getting old really. Let's chat about baptism. I am willing to discuss it if you were willing.

The thing is your perspective/belief that baptism is necessary to be saved is what led you to treat that person so coldly. That is what I am bringing to the discussion about baptism. The outworking of your belief system is a lack of compassion to those who are not baptised. If you really thought baptism was necessary for salvation you would have bent over backwards to encourage that person to baptosm but you did the opposite.
To me it seems you are more interested in enforcing the 'laws' of your belief system than encouraging others in their walks with the Lord.

 

[ByTheSpirit]

I post this video for perspective on the topic from the late Derek Prince:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bo7vUF3uR4g

 

[ByTheSpirit]

This one also from Francis Chan:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GNwPEVAWYig

 

[ByTheSpirit]

Greetings amigo..

But do ya see that rom 6, did not need water? If it did, then that would have to mean, that everyone born again, only had this, the Rom 6 teaching experience, only at water baptism.

Now baptized into the Spirit is important, and again, takes no water.


1 Cor 12:13 For in one Spirit we were all baptized into one body—Jews or Greeks, slaves or free—and all were made to drink of one Spirit.

Good points, I can see where you are coming from. But allow me to ask a question. The text doesn't say it's not water baptism either. Typically in the NT when "baptism" is mentioned, it's by and large in the context of water baptism. So I tend to lean towards Romans 6 is referencing water.

 

[Edial]

Well, Paul also said he did not come to baptize in 1 Cor, couldn't remember who he did baptize, other than a few, and also water (OP title) is not needed to be in the Romans 6 conversion experience. Romans 6, is in fact, the born again description detailed for us.

Now this is an excellent point Frog.
He did minimize the impact of water baptism by that statement.

 

[Frogster]

Good points, I can see where you are coming from. But allow me to ask a question. The text doesn't say it's not water baptism either. Typically in the NT when "baptism" is mentioned, it's by and large in the context of water baptism. So I tend to lean towards Romans 6 is referencing water.

How can it be water in Rom 6? That would mean people are being baptized, as unsaved unbelievers.

In other words, if they were not raised up with Christ until they came out of the body of water, it would mean they were dead right before they were submerged. It wouldn't make sense. One had to first believe, before he is baptized.


Also, to be baptized into his death was literal in a spiritual sense, or else the life we are now in is not literal. So Paul was talking about our actual dying and rising spiritually, there is no room for water in Rom 6.

This isn't water either, into Christ is literal, not symbolic.


Gal 3:27 For as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ.

 

[Frogster]

In other words, there is not one example of an unbeliever going into water, then coming out born again. Why do we need water for rom 6 to work?

 

[Frogster]

Now this is an excellent point Frog.
He did minimize the impact of water baptism by that statement.

I agree.

 

[Edial]

In other words, there is not one example of an unbeliever going into water, then coming out born again. Why do we need water for rom 6 to work?

You want me to get Lutheran on you?

 

[Frogster]

You want me to get Lutheran on you?

There was that guy cryptolutheran in the Gt section, but he changed his name.