Water Baptism is not a command in scripture

[Schroeder]

No, it failed because it did not accomplish what it set out to do....to revive the NT Church.

I will be happy to layout in detail about baptism, but will have to do it later...I got to start getting things layout, and prepare supper.


Peace be with you...Pam

No it did not start out to revive the Church only to speak the truth of what christianity is about. Yes we also added and subtracted what was at the beggining just as all denom have. but the Church is not a physical intity it is Spiritual. It is not a religion which we keep trying to make it. George Fox never entended it to become a denom or such, he spoke the Truth, that was his goal, it became more, so he had to and others try to organize it without trying to make it into a denom. Dont know if it worked, maybe for a little while but no more. I dont preach for Quakerism, just Truth in the word. I no all there is to know about water baptism, i am in a formal debate on it know if you wish to read it on the formal debate page. My name is w jay Schoeder and other, because of computer problems and lack of internet access at home. Most detail of water baptism is based on bad interpretation of passages and vague conversion stories. Best you can say is that it is full emersion and is done after salvation. The rest is tradition of denom. and speculation. AND I BY NO means put people done for doing it, I my self was water baptized last year. It was to rededicate my life to Christ. Of course reading scripture is all i need to really do. That and discipline of the mind. What quakers call centering down, not good at that.

 

[quadding101]

The bible was written like a giant puzzle and to understand the bible we must take ALL the bible says about a subject and put it together. To take part and leave some out or pick and choose what we will believe our puzzle will be wrong and incomplete (false doctrine). When we put scriptures together it makes some scriptures not mean exactly what they say or we will contradictions also we get a picture that makes some scriptures not mean exactly what they say. Take prayer for example, one place says (whatever I ask), another place says (according to God's will), another place says (I can ask amiss). If I find ALL the bible says about prayer I get a picture that says that God answers in 1 of 3 ways, YES, NO, and YES BUT WAiT. The question seems to be , what does baptism do for salvation? The shed blood of Christ washes away our sin. We recieve Jesus when we believe (faith). Our sins r forgiven when we repent and confess our sins. So what does baptism do for salvation other than it is like a testimony.

 

[enoch son]

Jesus (the creation hello!) was baptize the whole creation was baptize. "In order that all righteousness be fullfill". Thats why there is only one baptism that counts HIS.

 

[Schroeder]

Schroeder, whoever taught you about Christianity, really did not know what they were talking about! Do you want to tell me the Church has been doing something WRONG for nearly 2000 years, and suddenly YOU discovered the RIGHT way? Come on!
Jesus told Nicodemus straight that unless he was Reborn of WATER and the Spirit, he could not enter the Kingdom of Heaven.
And St Paul says that Batism replaces circumcision. Does circumcision change anyone? No!
What is the Great Commission - Preach the Gospel and Baptise everyone in the name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit. And there is only ONE meaning of baptism - immersion, usually it is WATER. Only in exceptional cases was sand used, as in the Desert Fathers.
Go learn your Church History properly before you come and make a fool of yourself.

You need to teach yourself through the spirit. your so mislead. Church history is NOT the Gospel message. If you can not get John 3:3 correct then i can see how you are mislead so easily. Paul said no such thing which is why you dont give scripture to show where he did.

 

[Schroeder]

Baptism is not just a symbol. It also washes away our sins.

not scriptual in the least bit. show me the verse that states this. enstead of just throwing it out. you are regurgitating what your told.

 

[.Mikha'el.]

Exaclty why scripture is not the final authority. The Chruch is.

Forgive me...

No. the Church is not the final authority. Christ is.

 

[Egghead]

this passage has nothing whatsoever to do with water. It is of the Spirit Baptism which Christ preforms in us when we believe. Notice it says we are united into him in this manner, water has no changing effect on us period. If you say it is sympolic then this should be very clear. How is a sympolic act transforming, it is not the Holy Spirit does, Titus 3:5.

by whom also He went and preached to the spirits in prison, who formerly disobeyed, when the longsuffering of God was waiting in the days of Noah, when the ark was being prepared, in which a few, that is, eight souls, were saved through water; which as an antitype, baptism now also saves us--(not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God), through the resurrection of Jesus Christ,
(1Pe 3:19-21 EMTV)

.

 

[Egghead]

No were in scripture is this idea commanded, it was used, but only for a time, just as John the baptist said it would be, and Christ baptism would increase and his decrease. It is very misinterpreted by most all denominations and is a burdone, not because of its use but in how it is interpreted to be used and why and or how or when, none of which is ever mentioned in scripture, why because it is not a part of the Gospel message, Which is solely about Christ and his Spirit.

Paul says he wasnt sent to baptize here.

Now I say this, that each of you says, "I am of Paul," and "I of Apollos," and "I of Cephas," and "I of Christ." Has Christ been divided? Was Paul crucified for you? Or were you baptized in the name of Paul?
I thank God that I baptized none of you except Crispus and Gaius, lest anyone should say that I had baptized in my own name. Yes, I also baptized the household of Stephanas. Besides, I do not know whether I baptized any other.
For Christ did not send me to baptize, but to preach the gospel, not in eloquent wisdom, lest the cross of Christ should be deprived of its power. For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God.
(1Co 1:12-18 EMTV)

If this isnt water baptism, then what is it? Spiritual?

So Jesus didnt send Paul out to baptise men in His spirit then, I assume, IF we take things as you present them.
And we know Paul did just that.

And when Paul laid his hands on them, the Holy Spirit came upon them, and they spoke in tongues and prophesied.
(Act 19:6 EMTV)

so WHAT baptism was it the Jesus DIDNT send Paul to do?

It surely wasnt spiritual baptism as we just presented Paul doing just that.

It was WATER baptism.

and the whole Corinthian church was doing it and obviously Paul HAD baptized some of them.....showing absolutely that water baptism WAS being practiced in the church.




Men WERE being baptized in water, just as Jesus had done.

This one is interesting..

And taking them along in that same hour of the night and washed their wounds, and immediately he and all his family were baptized.
(Act 16:33 EMTV)

Here they are washing.....in water Id hope....and ''baptized'' immediately.
pretty stong implication if nothing else.

Last but definetly NOT least from Acts is this one that no one can argue against.

And he ordered the chariot to stop, and they both went down into the water, both Phillip and the eunuch, and he baptized him.
(Act 8:38 EMTV)

 

[Schroeder]

Paul says he wasnt sent to baptize here.

If this isnt water baptism, then what is it? Spiritual?

So Jesus didnt send Paul out to baptise men in His spirit then, I assume, IF we take things as you present them.
And we know Paul did just that.


so WHAT baptism was it the Jesus DIDNT send Paul to do?

It surely wasnt spiritual baptism as we just presented Paul doing just that.

It was WATER baptism.

and the whole Corinthian church was doing it and obviously Paul HAD baptized some of them.....showing absolutely that water baptism WAS being practiced in the church.




Men WERE being baptized in water, just as Jesus had done.

This one is interesting..

Here they are washing.....in water Id hope....and ''baptized'' immediately.
pretty stong implication if nothing else.

Last but definetly NOT least from Acts is this one that no one can argue against.

Are these commands or statements of what was done. John the baptist said his (water) would decrease and Christ baptism(spirit) would increase. there is no time it suddenly stopped. Paul was not sent to baptize bcause John the baptist was all ready sent. Paul was to speak of the Gospel so the Cross would not lose its power, Presenting water baptism as a command for salvation is destroying the power of the cross because its saying it was not enough to just give his son but we must dosome of the saving grace which grace is not anything to do with us. how can it be a part of the Gospel(salvation message) when he to me clearly differentiates the two, or makes them apart from each other. He does do that right. not to baptize but present the gospel if they were together then he could not say that could? I am not saying it did not happen I am saying it was never commanded, for if it was it would mean you would have to do it to be saved, which scripture clearly says otherwise.

 

[Schroeder]

.

yet Hebrews says by Faith Noah built an ARK to save his family, SO which is right. maybe you misunderstood 1 peter 3:20. Why would he say antitype to water if as you say it is water that saves you. Is through and by the same meaning. it would be by his faith in Gods word he built the ark which saved them Through the water. That would be more correct. The water destroyed the sin of the earth. know the Spirit destroys sin in you. before God dealt with men through isreal and the Law. know it is through christ and the Spirit. Same thing different method. God deals with man(individually) before man(together). Did Jesus water baptize those that were dead when he went to preach to them at his death, when he went to hades. 1 John 3:18, 4:6 .

 

[sojourner]

Petrarch,

No. the Church is not the final authority. Christ is.

They are one and the same.
The Church is the pillar and ground of Truth. I Tim 3:15

 

[Egghead]

Are these commands or statements of what was done.

Look, if you dont want to be baptised, dont.
But dont try to change what the bible shows us by instruction and example to suit YOUR needs/desires.

John the baptist said his (water) would decrease and Christ baptism(spirit) would increase. /quote]
Now friend, IS the what he said. or is that what YOU are saying he said?
lets LOOK at what John ACTUALLY said, shall we?

He must increase, but I must decrease.
(Joh 3:30 EMTV)

there is no time it suddenly stopped. Paul was not sent to baptize bcause John the baptist was all ready sent.

And yet those in corinth WERE baptised by someone OTHER than John and even by Paul himself.

Presenting water baptism as a command for salvation is destroying the power of the cross because its saying it was not enough to just give his son but we must dosome of the saving grace which grace is not anything to do with us.

Nice try, it does nothing of the sort.
If for some reason, as the thief, you cannot be baptised, but you repent of sins, you will still be saved.
But we are to be baptised if we have no reason not to.

how can it be a part of the Gospel(salvation message) when he to me clearly differentiates the two, or makes them apart from each other. He does do that right.

The scripture makes them one, YOU are the one differentiating them here.

not to baptize but present the gospel if they were together then he could not say that could? I am not saying it did not happen I am saying it was never commanded, for if it was it would mean you would have to do it to be saved, which scripture clearly says otherwise.

You seem to have been saying that it was not water baptism that was being practiced.
In that you have been shown clearly to be in error.
The church WAS practicing water baptism, commanded or not.

If you dont want to be baptised, then dont.....but dont teach men that its ok to just not do it.

Let me show you something here......

My brothers, let not many become teachers, knowing that we shall receive greater judgment.
(Jam 3:1 EMTV)

YOU WILL be held accountable for what you teach.

 

[Egghead]

yet Hebrews says by Faith Noah built an ARK to save his family, SO which is right. maybe you misunderstood 1 peter 3:20. Why would he say antitype to water if as you say it is water that saves you. Is through and by the same meaning. it would be by his faith in Gods word he built the ark which saved them Through the water. That would be more correct. The water destroyed the sin of the earth. know the Spirit destroys sin in you. before God dealt with men through isreal and the Law. know it is through christ and the Spirit. Same thing different method. God deals with man(individually) before man(together). Did Jesus water baptize those that were dead when he went to preach to them at his death, when he went to hades. 1 John 3:18, 4:6 .

You have been shown that men WERE being baptized with WATER by Paul and others AFTER John was dead and Jesus had ascended.
That is enough evidence.

If you dont want to believe it, then dont.
again I will remind you tho....

My brothers, let not many become teachers, knowing that we shall receive greater judgment.
(Jam 3:1 EMTV)

 

[Schroeder]

Petrarch,

They are one and the same.[/font]
The Church is the pillar and ground of Truth. I Tim 3:15

you are making the Church a physical entity when it is not it is spirtual. The Church is all that believe on christ period, it is bond by Truth in his name. That verse is speaking of how we should live in truth and to do so to represent God in truth so as not to bring shame to God through the Church. If we as individuals live wordly it would weaken the purpose of god and his work. It would also destroy the Church or the body of Christ and know one would believe what we speak. We are all one but yet still individuals just working together.

 

[statrei]

you are making the Church a physical entity when it is not it is spirtual. The Church is all that believe on christ period, it is bond by Truth in his name. That verse is speaking of how we should live in truth and to do so to represent God in truth so as not to bring shame to God through the Church. If we as individuals live wordly it would weaken the purpose of god and his work. It would also destroy the Church or the body of Christ and know one would believe what we speak. We are all one but yet still individuals just working together.

How can we speak of a spiritual church and base its destiny on the actions of physical beings? Could it be true that we have developed a doctrine out of thin air?

 

[Schroeder]

Look, if you dont want to be baptised, dont.
But dont try to change what the bible shows us by instruction and example to suit YOUR needs/desires.(/QUOTE) i have been, but not because it was commanded. It does neither so there is nothing to change.

John the baptist said his (water) would decrease and Christ baptism(spirit) would increase.
Now friend, IS the what he said. or is that what YOU are saying he said?
lets LOOK at what John ACTUALLY said, shall we?(/QUOTE) What was the purpose of John to water baptize to reveal christ. it was done so water baptism played its part and was to decrease in its purpose. There is no scripture that states that purpose was done it itrs new pupose is this and should be done.





(QUOTE)And yet those in corinth WERE baptised by someone OTHER than John and even by Paul himself.

Nice try, it does nothing of the sort.
If for some reason, as the thief, you cannot be baptised, but you repent of sins, you will still be saved.
But we are to be baptised if we have no reason not to.(/QUOTE) No scripture to back this up i see. There is no cammand to be saved through water baptism in scripture at all.


(QUOTE)The scripture makes them one, YOU are the one differentiating them here.



You seem to have been saying that it was not water baptism that was being practiced.
In that you have been shown clearly to be in error.
The church WAS practicing water baptism, commanded or not.

If you dont want to be baptised, then dont.....but dont teach men that its ok to just not do it.

Let me show you something here......


YOU WILL be held accountable for what you teach.

reread i said water baptism did happen but it was not for salvation purposes and not commanded by christ or anyone else. Show me were it says that if you do not head this ordances you will be condemmed. no it says if you do not Believe you will be condemed. The Church did foot washing alot to but it is no longer in use much, it was no more incourged to be done by Christ as communion as well as mentioned by other to water baptism so why is it not a command. Not once anywhere does Christ ever even speak of water baptism or what itmeans or represents or will do after his death. If it was so important why would he have not considering it often usage in his time of minstry. I do not fear speaking the Truth of Gods word.

 

[Schroeder]

You have been shown that men WERE being baptized with WATER by Paul and others AFTER John was dead and Jesus had ascended.
That is enough evidence.

If you dont want to believe it, then dont.
again I will remind you tho....

Evidence that it ocuured not that it was done because Christ commanded it. I showed that your interpretation was flawed ignore it if you want. that is what you just did. Please use scripture to further your point or it is just your opinion with know proof.

 

[Schroeder]

How can we speak of a spiritual church and base its destiny on the actions of physical beings? Could it be true that we have developed a doctrine out of thin air?

maybe i could reword it differently. it is of physical people but it is held together by the Spirit of christ or God. which is Love and Truth. You to me are making it a organization which it is not. Or a religion which it is n ot. it is a personal relationship between you and God through christ, NOT a relationship through the Church. Which is what i think you are saying.

 

[Schroeder]

You have been shown that men WERE being baptized with WATER by Paul and others AFTER John was dead and Jesus had ascended.
That is enough evidence.

If you dont want to believe it, then dont.
again I will remind you tho....

You will be sad to know then that i am going to go into the minstry to hopefully become a pastor. So Pray i am struck done if i am wrong. because yes you are right i will be judged more severly then others if i teach the word of God, more people should realize that before spewing nonsense behind the pulpit. But i am sure in what i believe. Its not like Im on a mission to rid the Church of water baptism. I do not care that it is done but that it is sorely misinterpreted and or misused. Congregations insist on it for membership yet god does not, that to me is sad.

 

[Egghead]

You will be sad to know then that i am going to go into the minstry to hopefully become a pastor. So Pray i am struck done if i am wrong. because yes you are right i will be judged more severly then others if i teach the word of God, more people should realize that before spewing nonsense behind the pulpit. But i am sure in what i believe. Its not like Im on a mission to rid the Church of water baptism. I do not care that it is done but that it is sorely misinterpreted and or misused. Congregations insist on it for membership yet god does not, that to me is sad.

I honestly dont understand HOW you could see that Jesus said to baptise men, being baptised Himself, then see that clearly Paul was baptising, as well as the rest of the apostles and then make this claim "But i am sure in what i believe"

I dont see how anyone could look at all that evidence and refuse to see that water baptism has been a part of our hertitage as christians since day one.
Hopefully you will see the truth BEFORE the minds and souls of others are put into your hands brother.

I think youre taking that some churches put too much emphasis on what baptism does, and going in the opposite direction your giving the impression that its no big deal.
It is.

Im not telling you to teach that salvation is thru baptism.....but is is part of the christian experience, no matter what that part is exactly.

I cannot fathom the mind of the christian who doesnt want to be baptized