Water Baptism is not a command in scripture

[OrthodoxyUSA]

And where are we told how? On your church website? Where is that information resident?

Within the living Church.

 

[OrthodoxyUSA]

Read your Bible, Kayla. Jesus did not even come here to form a church. He came to His own and they unfortunately did not receive Him. He left followers all of whom are imperfect but committed. If the church is so perfect how they did not know that Aristotle and Ptolemy were wrong? I now how wonderful it would be to believe that the church is perfect. That would relieve you of the obligation of doing what the Bible recommends, that you should test every spirit. You would much prefer to have all your food cut and digested for you. Sorry, that won't work. Only babies are allowed to have their food in liquid form. The mature ones must digest it first.

There is one perfect Church...

 

[statrei]

There is one perfect Church...

Correct. Unfortunately, no one except God knows who the members are.

 

[Schroeder]

The verses were given. You will only twist it to mean the water symbolizes Christ only, but i shall give it anyways.

John 3:3-5: Truly, truly, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God." When Jesus said "water and the Spirit," He was referring to baptism which requires the use of water, and the work of the Spirit.

Water here is meaning natural birth, born of the Flesh as stated in verse 6 Flesh gives birth to Flesh. Nothing to do with water baptism

Acts 22:16

: Ananias tells Saul, "Arise and be baptized, and wash away your sins.” The “washing away” refers to water baptism.

No baptized means water baptism, the wash away is figurative.

Titus 3:5-6

– 3 For we ourselves also were some time unwise, incredulous, erring, slaves to divers desires and pleasures, living in malice and envy, hateful, and hating one another. 4 But when the goodness and kindness of God our Saviour appeared: 5 Not by the works of justice, which we have done, but according to his mercy, he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renovation of the Holy Ghost; 6 Whom he hath poured forth upon us abundantly, through Jesus Christ our Saviour:

Again its rebirth and renewal by the Holy Spirit, two things that happen when you are saved. You are reborn and renewed. it is purly spiritual which water has no power to do. only the Spirit of Christ can do this to you. verse 6 proves that when it says it is given throough Christ. What do you think is his Baptism of the Holy Spirit spoke abpout by John the baptist.

Paul writes about the “washing of regeneration,” which is “poured out on us” in reference to water baptism. “Washing” (loutron) generally refers to a ritual washing with water.

Heb 10:22 Let us draw near with a true heart in fulness of faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience, and our bodies washed with clean water. (speaking about water Baptism again)

In referance to the Holy Spirit. Read Rom 8. Read 1 Cor 15 42-44. we are literly cleanses not figurativly, and that is only by the Spirit because it is not dirt of the flesh but of the heart that needs cleaned. The flesh is referred to as adam origanal sin. When we are in the flesh we are in sin. What about Heb. 9:10 they are only a matter of food and drink and various ceremonial washings- EXTERNAL REGULATIONS applying UNTILL the time of the new order. Those did not clear the conscience or cleans them then and it doesnt know. verses 8-9. Paul even said he did not come to water baptize but to preach the gospel, if it was part of the gospel he would not have said such a thing. He also said he He knew nothing except Jesus Christ and him Crucified. 1 Cor 1:17-2:16

Ezek 36:25-27

25 And I will pour upon you clean water, and you shall be cleansed from all your filthiness, and I will cleanse you from all your idols.
26 And I will give you a new heart, and put a new spirit within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and will give you a heart of flesh. 27 And I will put my spirit in the midst of you: and I will cause you to walk in my commandments, and to keep my judgments, and do them.

Here the Lord promises us He will sprinkle us with water to cleanse us from sin and give us a new heart and spirit. The teaching of Ezekiel foreshadows the salvific nature of Christian Baptism instituted by Christ

Thats so wrong its funny. John the Baptist who forshadowed Christ to reveal him and his ministry says that he baptized with water but the one after him will baptize with the HOLY SPIRIT. Water doesnt cleanse you. It is the Holy Spirit that does. The Flesh is sin no matter how many times you are water baptized, thats the new order or gospel is given because all the external regulations didnt truelly cleanse

Acts 8:36

:And as they went on their way, they came to a certain water; and the eunuch said: See, here is water: what doth hinder me from being baptized? 37 And Philip said: If thou believest with all thy heart, thou mayest. And he answering, said: I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God. 38 And he commanded the chariot to stand still; and they went down into the water, both Philip and the eunuch: and he baptized him.

The eunuch recognizes the necessity of water for his baptism. Water and baptism are never separated in the Scriptures.

There are only a few examples of conversion in scripture, so its hard to say it proves anything. It was a very very common thing to be water baptized at that time so it wouldnt take much to think it was a need. Why did not Phillip an Apostle make that point to the eunuch instead of the other way around. They did travel a bit before they came to water. Phillip never brought it up to the eunuch that he needed to be water baptized, he only told him he could if he truely believed in his heart.

What are you talking about? What do you think they mean when they say "And he went into the water and was Baptised"?

That was his ministry with water i said after this point it is not part of the message of Christ. Christ was baptized to fullfill prophecy to reveal himself to the nation not to show how we must do it. He nevber said so i do you do also for this. John 1:29-34

Scripture please.

Incorrect. John the Baptist was symbolizing of what the importance of water will become through Christ. His was regular water. The water of Baptism after the Crusifixion is sacred water.

Nonsense. made up foolishness. No such thing as sacred water. Its the Sanctifying work of the Holy SPirit. 1 Thess 2:13

Of course they existed. If your going to say this then you can likewise say theat the ones who passed along the Scripture for the first few hundred years were also not real.

You just contradicted yourself there.

You go by your own understanding of Scripture. Scripture doesn't speak to you. You interpret.

To deny the Church perspective is to deny a historical account of how the early Church behaved. Show me where any christians thought as you did about Baptism.

That is what you all say.

You have no authority to tell me exactly what Scripture is telling me. You interpretate your way and i will follow the Church Guided by the Holy Spirit to interpretate my way.

I am part of the Church, and the Holy Spirit resides in every one seperatly not just over the Church. The Church is not a organization or a system or such it is mearly all those saved through Christ. No one is over it, no one oversees it, Christ is the Father of the Church and it is not a intity but it is Christ bride, his chosen ones. So no i have no authority to tell anyone what to believe i can only speak the truth. You are following a denom church theology.

 

[Schroeder]

Orthodoxy,

Traditionally Quakers don't believe that The Church(or any church for that matter) and the Bible are finial authorities. Which is why his quote I highlighted in my last post confused me, on his stance. Rather they rely on the Light Within, to guide them to truth.

Peace be with you...Pam

Yes true. The light within is the Holy Spirit which resides in us. We rely on the Spirit to guide us into truth, we use the bible to make sure it is the truth. there are two spirits among us so we must have a guide so to speak to insure it is the truth. I personal do not say that the Spirit is above the scriptures because it was written by the Spirit, they are egual, YET you can not have one without the other. You can not be guided by the Spirit without the scriptures and you cant read scripture without the Spirit

 

[OrthodoxyUSA]

Correct. Unfortunately, no one except God knows who the members are.

The Orthodox understand that the Church has a presence here on earth called the Church militant (those among the living) of which all members may not be saved. (We don't believe in OSAS)

The Orthodox also understands that the Church has a presence in Heaven called the Church triumphant ( those who have gone before us) and contains a host of peoples whom have obeyed God and now enjoy his Holy Light. This group of peoples contains ones who have come from the Church militant and ones who have been saved by Christs graces outside the Church militant as well.

Christ saves whom he will.

Run the good race... and hope for salvation.

Forgive me....

 

[Schroeder]

You don't include the Gospel of John in your scripture?

Im sopposing im am talking about water baptism. And yes Escpecially John, one of my favorite books of the bible. He hardly even mentions communion or water baptism. Its amazing how many see the word baptize and emmediatly thinks it about water, when John the baptist clearly says Christ baptises with the Holy Spirit. Jesus never even water baptized anyone. He never ever spoke about it.

 

[OrthodoxyUSA]

Yes true. The light within is the Holy Spirit which resides in us. We rely on the Spirit to guide us into truth, we use the bible to make sure it is the truth. there are two spirits among us so we must have a guide so to speak to insure it is the truth. I personal do not say that the Spirit is above the scriptures because it was written by the Spirit, they are egual, YET you can not have one without the other. You can not be guided by the Spirit without the scriptures and you cant read scripture without the Spirit

Schroeder,

I ask for your comments on post #100


Forgive me...

 

[statrei]

Within the living Church.

That's like telling me to draw a picture of the air. It can't be done. If you want to provide useful information provide useful information not vague statements that lead nowhere.

 

[OrthodoxyUSA]

That's like telling me to draw a picture of the air. It can't be done. If you want to provide useful information provide useful information not vague statements that lead nowhere.

O.K. Let me qualify the statement...

The "Living" Orthodox Church holds the complete unchanged deposit of the Christian Faith.

Forgive me....

 

[Schroeder]

Schroeder, whoever taught you about Christianity, really did not know what they were talking about! Do you want to tell me the Church has been doing something WRONG for nearly 2000 years, and suddenly YOU discovered the RIGHT way? Come on!
Jesus told Nicodemus straight that unless he was Reborn of WATER and the Spirit, he could not enter the Kingdom of Heaven.
And St Paul says that Batism replaces circumcision. Does circumcision change anyone? No!
What is the Great Commission - Preach the Gospel and Baptise everyone in the name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit. And there is only ONE meaning of baptism - immersion, usually it is WATER. Only in exceptional cases was sand used, as in the Desert Fathers.
Go learn your Church History properly before you come and make a fool of yourself.

Yes they have been teaching it wrong for many years, not completly wrong just adding unneeded things. You should read verse 6 and you will see your misunderstanding. its so clear it sad so many learned get it so wrong. Verse 4 it says enter into his MOTHERS WOMB, natural birth, which is from water. Verse 6 Flesh gives birth to flesh, Nicodmus s thinking of natural fleshly birth. And the second birth is of the Spirit. verse 3 Jesus says one birth, verse 4 nicodemus thinks it is the Flesh, verse 5 Jesus says two births. verse 6 First one is of Flesh(natural water) the second, which is what he is talking about is Spiritual, since we have already been born once. Other wise we would be born three times and he wopuld have said born again twice more. verse 8 again one rebirth of the Spirit. Notice verse 10, how could a teacher of Isreal get this wrong, same way they do know. They are too earthly. John 6:63 " the Spirit GIVES LIFE; the FLESH counts for NOTHING. The words i have spoken to you are Spirit and they are LIFE. Church history is not TRUTH nor important in your walk with Christ. You my Freind need to question your teaching of the Word. Show me where what i just wrote is wrong. you or anyone reading who disagrees.

 

[Schroeder]

Thereby qualifing it as the Holy Spirit?

What if, another spirit came to you and showed you a different meaning of the scripture that you are reading... and you in turn agree that it "could be" read that way.

How do you, by yourself, qualify this Spirit as being the Holy Spirit?

Do you not look to the advise of others? Mother, Father, Brother and ask what does this mean?

The Holy Spirit works "through" the Church.. these are your Mother Father and Brothers in Christ.

How will we know that they are among us in the Church? Through the proper sacrament of Baptsim and the seal of the Holy Spirit placed there by the Church.

The Church is what Christ left us, whole and perfect... without need of changes. It is to be maintained as complete.

The members of the Church worte the scriptures of the NT to help maintain the Church not to define it.

If Christ had wished for us to have a book as the final authority on Christian Life then he would have written it himself with his own two hands.

Forgive me....

You have proved me right. How do you know your fathers were lead to the right interpretation. that is why Christ left a very simple uncomplicated message. TO simply love one another and to love God with all your heart and soul. Dont you see how all this other stuff is such a burdone. Read 1 John 5:10-20 That is the gospel message. that is all that needs to be taught. the other Spirit speaks against all of that in every way. if what you teach coinsides with 1 John 5:10-20 then it is Truth. Christianity is a relationship, a personal one with God Through Christ, nothing more nothing less. The Church is merly all those togethor that believe in his son. What is the Work of God John 6:29 To believe in the one he has sent. Why complicat it so much.

 

[OrthodoxyUSA]

People can believe all kinds of things...

You can lead a horse to water but you cant make him drink. (No pun intended)

Either way I'm not going to argue with the horse... he is either thirsty or he is not.

This is interesting:

"This one will not hear of Baptism, and that one denies the sacrament, another puts a world between this and the last day: some teach that Christ is not God, some say this, some say that: there are as many sects and creeds as there are heads. No yokel is so rude but when he has dreams and fancies, he thinks himself inspired by the Holy Ghost and must be a prophet"

Martin Luther

Forgive me....

 

[OrthodoxyUSA]

You have proved me right. How do you know your fathers were lead to the right interpretation. that is why Christ left a very simple uncomplicated message. TO simply love one another and to love God with all your heart and soul. Dont you see how all this other stuff is such a burdone. Read 1 John 5:10-20 That is the gospel message. that is all that needs to be taught. the other Spirit speaks against all of that in every way. if what you teach coinsides with 1 John 5:10-20 then it is Truth. Christianity is a relationship, a personal one with God Through Christ, nothing more nothing less. The Church is merly all those togethor that believe in his son. What is the Work of God John 6:29 To believe in the one he has sent. Why complicat it so much.

You are taking my use of the word Church out of context and placing on it a value that the Orthodox Church disagrees with...

The only way my statements would prove you right is if you ignore the context of the word "Chruch".

Forgive me....

 

[Schroeder]

Schroeder,

I ask for your comments on post #100


Forgive me...

I like your statement that he cheks our heart, but not the pray to the saints which is not scriptual at all. It is almost pagan, We are told NOT to any put one above another. Besides christ says to speak to him pray to him or pray to god through him. not throught he saints, they were mere men just like you or I, Or women. He just happened to use them for the purpose at that time, you or I could be used for just as important a purpose as they were. remember, the angels rejoice over just one saved soul, they dont what for us to convert many before they are happy. if your or I saved just one it is a great thing.

 

[Schroeder]

You are taking my use of the word Church out of context and placing on it a value that the Orthodox Church disagrees with...

The only way my statements would prove you right is if you ignore the context of the word "Chruch".

Forgive me....

Yes i should remember that your orthodoxy Church is the same as the Catholic Church. or Church universal. The problem is you have a high archy which is unscriptual. you have priest and such. overseers of a small meeting of believers is fine but not overseers of the Church. that is not possible only Christ can do that through the holy Spirit.

 

[PassthePeace1]

Friends believe that the Holy Spirit is the final authority, BUT It must NEVER contradict scripture.

Friend Schroeder,

I do know something of what Friends believe, I am descended from the earliest Quakers. My family were some of the first to get swept up in the movement, they also came over with William Penn(literaly on the same ship) to be part of the Holy Experiment, and they started some of the first Meeting Houses in this country. Someone in the family took a turn in the 1800s and my branch became Methodist on my dad's side, but I spent most of my adult life as a Quaker myself.

Well from a Quaker understanding the Holy Spirit and the Inward Light are the same thing, it is also called The Divine Presence, Risen Christ, The Christ Within, That of God, Seed Within, and a couple of other terms that slip my mind at the moment. However, I think that understanding would be viewed differently by Protestants and Catholics.

Inward Light No. 57—Inward Light in Quakerism


Peace be with you...Pam

 

[OrthodoxyUSA]

Yes i should remember that your orthodoxy Church is the same as the Catholic Church. or Church universal. The problem is you have a high archy which is unscriptual. you have priest and such. overseers of a small meeting of believers is fine but not overseers of the Church. that is not possible only Christ can do that through the holy Spirit.

Now your just becoming offensive.

This proves to me that you have no idea of what Orthodoxy is....

We are NOT the same as the Catholic Church. That would only be true in someones imagination. You see the B/W picture in the lower right?

The Orthodox Church and the Vatican Catholic Church are as different as these two men appear.

Christ is the only head of The Church and we are led by the Holy Spirit and run by council.

Forgive me...

 

[ImSoBlessed]

Now your just becoming offensive.

This proves to me that you have no idea of what Orthodoxy is....

We are NOT the same as the Catholic Church. That would only be true in someones imagination. You see the B/W picture in the lower right?

The Orthodox Church and the Vatican Catholic Church are as different as these two men appear.

Christ is the only head of The Church and we are led by the Holy Spirit and run by council.

Forgive me...

the picture in the corner is suppose to show the difference between vatican catholics and orthydoxy? how? by their clothes?

 

[PassthePeace1]

Yes i should remember that your orthodoxy Church is the same as the Catholic Church. or Church universal. The problem is you have a high archy which is unscriptual. you have priest and such. overseers of a small meeting of believers is fine but not overseers of the Church. that is not possible only Christ can do that through the holy Spirit.

Here again, you are not presenting your agruement in the manor of a Quaker!

Peace be with you...Pam