A conversation about unity.

[Xeno.of.athens]

I believe and confess the Apostles and Nicene Creeds. Don't you? That's quite a lot upon which we agree, don't you think?

it is a foundation for some of The things we share in common as beliefs. it is very far from exhaustive and it would not justify the existence of any Protestant denomination since both Catholics and Orthodox accept The Nicene creed - with the slight hiccup about the filioque - but clearly that wasn't sufficient for unity between Catholic and Orthodox churches and the Oriental Orthodox Churches do not accept the Chalcedonian creed.

 

[Xeno.of.athens]

Sorry, your denomination is not the only one from Jesus on the streets. I know you want to think differently, but we are not listening to you, we are listening to Jesus.

Unity with Jesus is a requirement, not with other denominations.

I am quite confident that The denomination formed in 1914 was not established by Jesus Christ.

 

[ARBITER01]

I am quite confident that The denomination formed in 1914 was not established by Jesus Christ.

Lol,..... Jesus established an assembly in Acts 2. He has many assemblies, one of them is called The Assemblies of GOD which I just happen to be associated with as a member.

It seems you don't like that, but then again, this thread just validates the Reformation.

 

[Xeno.of.athens]

Paul was adamant that central to Truth was the Gospel - maybe we should start there for some sense of unified agreement.

there are four gospels, each with a slightly different perspective on the story of Jesus' public ministry.

now, it is Catholic practise to read from one of the four gospels at every Mass, and to make the content of that reading, the centre of The homily. it was not my experience that such was The case in The Presbyterian Church that I went to for a dozen years. nor was it The case in The Baptist Church that I attended for two years. Nor was it the case in The Assemblies of God church that I attended for one and one half years. that is just an aside. ​

it's interesting. when St Paul spoke about the truth of the gospel his focus was on the message that he was preaching. and St Paul's message, was chiefly about Jesus Christ, his resurrection from the dead, his return to judge the living and the dead, and The general resurrection. there was of course a great deal of additional detail in St Paul's preaching. what I am interested to know is what features in The gospel do you think would help to bring about unity among Christians now?

 

[Xeno.of.athens]

Lol,..... Jesus established an assembly in Acts 2. He has many assemblies, one of them is called The Assemblies of GOD which I just happen to be associated with as a member.

It seems you don't like that, but then again, this thread just validates the Reformation.

your post is incorrect in so many ways. Christ established a church not an assembly. The church that Jesus Christ established indoors to today. it was not established in 1914. You ask, or at least you assert, that you think I don't like you being a member of The Assemblies of God, The truth is it doesn't really matter to me, I am not a member of that denomination, you are, good for you. I am a catholic, you are not, I do not expect you to be gleeful or something about me being a catholic, again The truth is, it doesn't really matter to me whether you like or do not like me being a Catholic, in fact, it never occurred to me to ask if you liked it or not.

if you truly believe that this thread validates the reformation please explain exactly how it validates the reformation and exactly what aspects of the reformation are validated by it. it should be interesting for me to read your reply, that is to say if there is actual substantial content in your reply.

 

[Hentenza]

The first thing I want to say is that this thread is not my defence of Catholic Teaching. read my posts I cite The references I've used. cheque out The original post once again you will see that it is not a defence of my view of anything. and what does it matter if you grew up a Catholic and rejected Catholic teaching that seems an irrelevance to me, why didn't you tell me what you believe now, then we could compare and contrast it with what I've been writing, you seem a lot. To play against what I am or what you perceive me to be. you don't want to deal with The topic that much is clear, I don't know why you're participating in The thread if you think it's about who I am, it's never been about that.

Let’s test that theory. Here is your OP.

The son of one of my friends - The son would be about 40 years old now - has been having a conversation with me about the meaning of unity, in the Church. He is a Calvinist christian doing studies in a Baptist-like theological school. As a part of his studies, he's been looking into the question of church unity, and disunity. And since he knows me, he's been asking me questions about the Catholic perspective on the issues he's studying. We have had several rounds of discussion already and it would be unfair of me to reproduce those discussions, without first consulting with him about whether he wants anything that he's written, to appear in this forum. So, I will reproduce only my most recent reply to him regarding The question of unity. It is shown below the line.

---

Thank you for your considered reflections. You rightly note that various ecclesial communities articulate differing conceptions of the Church’s nature and unity. However, from a Catholic perspective, the Church founded by Christ “subsists in the Catholic Church, which is governed by the successor of Peter and by the Bishops in communion with him” (Lumen Gentium, §8). This formulation affirms that while elements of sanctification and truth exist outside her visible structure, the fullness of Christ’s Church remains uniquely and enduringly present in the Catholic communion.

This is strictly RCC teaching basically denigrating any other church but yours. The fullness of Christ church remains uniquely and enduringly present in all churches that profess Jesus as their Lord and Savior. Your church doesn’t have the monopoly in Christ. Every other church with orthodox teachings is equal to your church. This is arrogance at its best.

The Catholic critique of Protestant ecclesiology is not a dismissal of sincere faith or doctrinal convergence, but a theological response to the revealed structure of the Church. As Dominus Iesus (§16) clarifies, “the ecclesial communities which have not preserved the valid Episcopate and the genuine and integral substance of the Eucharistic mystery are not Churches in the proper sense.” This is not a polemical assertion but a doctrinal distinction rooted in sacramental and apostolic continuity. Unity, in Catholic understanding, is not merely mutual recognition but visible communion in faith, sacraments, and governance.

This is rich. So you are saying here that no other church other than yours has a valid episcopate or integral Eucharist mystery and those are not churches in the integral sense. This one really takes the cake. You guys have the only church that believes in transubstantiation which has devolved in Eucharist adoration and you have the nerve to say that it makes you special? Your doctrinal assertion is yet another arrogant pronouncement. Nothing here but Catholic doctrine. No chance for unity since you stated that everyone is beneath the RCC, Yet another none sense talk that precludes any kind of unity.

Your concern for ecumenical charity is well placed. The Church teaches that “many elements of sanctification and of truth are found outside of her visible structure” (Lumen Gentium, §8), and she earnestly seeks unity through dialogue and mutual understanding. Yet, fidelity to Christ’s intention for His Church requires clarity: unity must be more than doctrinal harmony—it must be sacramental and hierarchical, as instituted by Christ and perpetuated through apostolic succession.

In other words, your church is in the unique position through apostolic succession to be the only church that has the only valid sacramental and hierarchical position to really have the only elements of sanctification and truth even as God is the ONLY agency in charge of our sanctification. If it wasnt against the site rules I would be using some harsher words here but I am of God and can refrain.

Your thread is nothing but a farce. Unity was never in your mind. I’m going to continue fellowshiping with my Catholic brethren near my church simply because they are not arrogant as the Catholics that I have interacted in this thread. The arrogance and lack of respect for other Christians is one of the reasons why I left the RCC and I know that I’m not alone.

 

[caffeinated.hermit]

Oh my, here we go. I have an idea, let's fight a theological war that ended over 500 years ago. Let's not go forward, that's foolish. Let's just retrace our steps and become even more irrelevant.

There's a book I need to read called "Beyond The Salvation Wars : Why Both Protestant And Catholics Must Reimagine How We Are Saved". It looks awesome, and if / when I get the chance to buy and read it, I'll report back with thoughts. Matthew W. Bates seems to be really, really trying to build some bridges here, without holding back from criticizing both sides.

I think this is the kind of talk and thinking that can help people move forwards, not back.

You might like Richard Beck, too. He's a Protestant who seems to love the heck out of Catholics and the Orthodox. Neat guy.

 

[ARBITER01]

Christ established a church not an assembly.

Incorrect,....

Mat 16:18 And I also say to you, that you are Peter, and upon this rock I will build My assembly, and the gates of Hades shall not prevail against it.

Original: ἐκκλησία
- Transliteration: Ekklesia
- Phonetic: ek-klay-see'-ah
- Definition:
1. a gathering of citizens called out from their homes into some public place, an assembly
a. an assembly of the people convened at the public place of the council for the purpose of deliberating
b. the assembly of the Israelites
c. any gathering or throng of men assembled by chance, tumultuously
d. in a Christian sense
1. an assembly of Christians gathered for worship in a religious meeting
2. a company of Christian, or of those who, hoping for eternal salvation through Jesus christ, observe their own religious rites, hold their own religious meetings, and manage their own affairs, according to regulations prescribed for the body for order's sake
3. those who anywhere, in a city, village, constitute such a company and are united into one body
4. the whole body of Christians scattered throughout the earth
5. the assembly of faithful Christians already dead and received into heaven


As Christians, we are an assembly of Believers in Christ. The body of Christ, hence why there are so many denominations. Unity in Christ is important, not unity in denomination.

I think this topic only comes up on here from you catholic types, not us protestants.

 

[Hentenza]

I am quite confident that The denomination formed in 1914 was not established by Jesus Christ.

You diminish Jesus involvement in the world when you, erroneously, think that He only worked in the 1st century. God sits next to the Father now and rules the world. They maintain all of creation. You shortsightedness amazes me.

 

[Carl Emerson]

there are four gospels, slightly different perspective on The story of Jesus, public ministry. now, it is Catholic practise to read from one of the four gospels at every Mass, and to make the content of that reading, the centre of The homily. it was not my experience that such was The case in The Presbyterian Church that I went to for a dozen years. nor was it The case in The Baptist Church that I attended for two years. The case in The Assemblies of God church that I attended for one and one half years. that is just an aside. it's interesting. when St Paul spoke about the truth of the gospel his focus was on the message that he was preaching. and St Paul's message, was chiefly about Jesus Christ, his resurrection from the dead, his return to judge the living and the dead, and The general resurrection. there was of course a great deal of additional detail in St Paul's preaching. what I am interested to know is what features in The gospel do you think would help to bring about unity among Christians now?

Were you not a believer before joining your present church ?

 

[public hermit]

There's a book I need to read called "Beyond The Salvation Wars : Why Both Protestant And Catholics Must Reimagine How We Are Saved". It looks awesome, and if / when I get the chance to buy and read it, I'll report back with thoughts. Matthew W. Bates seems to be really, really trying to build some bridges here, without holding back from criticizing both sides.

I think this is the kind of talk and thinking that can help people move forwards, not back.

You might like Richard Beck, too. He's a Protestant who seems to love the heck out of Catholics and the Orthodox. Neat guy.

Thank you for the heads up. If you read it, I'd be interested in hearing your thoughts. Is Richard Beck the Experimental Theology/Shape of Joy one? I haven't read him but will check it out. I like his attitude, at any rate.

 

[caffeinated.hermit]

Thank you for the heads up. If you read it, I'd be interested in hearing your thoughts. Is Richard Beck the Experimental Theology/Shape of Joy one? I haven't read him but will check it out. I like his attitude, at any rate.

Yes, he's the one! I subscribe to his blog, and there's been a lot of good stuff.

 

[Xeno.of.athens]

Let’s test that theory. Here is your OP.

This is strictly RCC teaching basically denigrating any other church but yours.

that claim is completely untrue.

The fullness of Christ church remains uniquely and enduringly present in all churches that profess Jesus as their Lord and Savior.

that claim is untrue for many reasons, not least of which is that Jesus established one Church not a plethora of denominations.

Your church doesn’t have the monopoly in Christ.

that claim is just absurd, Catholics never claim a monopoly on God. and since Jesus is God we have never claimed The monopoly on Jesus Christ. it would be helpful if you would try to be more accurate in your statements about what you think Catholics teach or believe, so far. You have done a poor job of telling me what Catholics believe, I know that because I am a Catholic and I don't believe what you've said, what you said is just an absurd parody of Catholic views.

Every other church with orthodox teachings is equal to your church.

that claim is untrue, for one thing. Protestant churches have a varying degree of orthodoxy, and they define Orthodoxy differently from one another, as well as from The Catholic Church, and from The Orthodox Church. I believe that one would be very hard pressed to formulate a single statement of faith that every Protestant denomination would accept, unless the statement of belief were so minimal that it contained almost nothing of any real substance. as I've gathered from The posts in this thread The only elements that every Protestant would accept is faith in Jesus Christ and faith that he has risen from The dead. in Christian forums we can add The content of The Nicene creed, but I fear that some Protestant denominations would reject that. in any case, the Various Protestant denominations are not the equal of the Catholic Church they are different.

This is arrogance at its best.

what it is at best is the truth. you are, of course, free to call it arrogance if that pleases you.

This is rich. So you are saying here that no other church other than yours has a valid episcopate or integral Eucharist mystery and those are not churches in the integral sense.

does your church accept and teach The Real presence do you believe that in The Holy Eucharist you receive The actual Body and Blood of Christ or do you present it as a spiritual exercise in which some kind of spiritual body and blood of Christ is consumed. and is The denomination that you seem to be talking about episcopal, do you have bishops, or are you an independent church? Or a church that relies on a single pastor and a number of elders, as would be The case in a Presbyterian Church, regardless of what kind of church you are actually in, maintaining valid Holy Orders from A Catholic perspective means maintaining Genuine apostolic succession, and The denomination that started in 1500 and something or some later time, it is unlikely to have done that. so yes, a valid episcopate and a valid Eucharistic Sacrament it would be missing, but your baptism can be valid, if it is said in The name of The Father and of The Son and of The Holy Spirit and water is used and The intention is to receive The person into The church of God that is, in Jesus Christ.

This one really takes the cake. You guys have the only church that believes in transubstantiation which has devolved in Eucharist adoration and you have the nerve to say that it makes you special?

yes we have the "nerve" to adore the body and blood of Christ. And yes it is special and yes, it is a presence of Christ that is quite unique, and since you reject it entirely you shouldn't object to me saying that you do not have it.

Your doctrinal assertion is yet another arrogant pronouncement. Nothing here but Catholic doctrine.

Honestly do you really expect me to present Protestant doctrine as if it were my belief when I am in fact a catholic. of course my presentation is Catholic doctrine what do you expect that it would be? away with this kind of complaint you should not expect a Catholic to present something that is not Catholic belief as if it were Catholic belief.

No chance for unity since you stated that everyone is beneath the RCC, Yet another none sense talk that precludes any kind of unity.

you seem determined to place yourself beneath the Catholic Church, well, have at it, it doesn't matter to me what position you think you ought to be in - Catholic views on Protestants are not what you claim them to be so why are you wasting my time and your own with complaints about something that just is not true and is very far from the truth.

In other words, your church is in the unique position through apostolic succession to be the only church that has the only valid sacramental and hierarchical position

yes that is Right. by having valid apostolic succession by maintaining The sacraments as they were given to The church by Jesus Christ and by maintaining hierarchical church governance as Christ and The apostles gave it to us, we do in fact maintain The church that Jesus Christ established.

to really have the only elements of sanctification and truth even as God is the ONLY agency in charge of our sanctification. If it wasnt against the site rules I would be using some harsher words here but I am of God and can refrain.

I am very glad you refrained from using harsher words, I am not glad that they occurred to you.

Your thread is nothing but a farce.

I think The farce is The way you're replying to The things that I have written you haven't made much of an effort to deal with The substance of any of my posts, you've been making emotive appeals to some alleged evil that lies behind The words that I've used, you appear to pretend that referring to Catholic teaching as truth is a bad thing. obviously I am going to say that what The Catholic Church teaches is true. I would be stupid to say that it was false, but that I believe it.

Unity was never in your mind.

that claim is false. you have neither The power to read my mind, nor evidently to read what is written in my posts.

I’m going to continue fellowshiping with my Catholic brethren near my church simply because they are not arrogant as the Catholics that I have interacted in this thread.

very good. You need not suffer my alleged arrogance any longer, my posts nevertheless will continue to present Catholic teaching as Truth. that is of course, because I believe that they are true.

The arrogance and lack of respect for other Christians is one of the reasons why I left the RCC and I know that I’m not alone.

you left The Catholic Church fine. it seems a very poor reason for leaving any church, but that is just my comment on what you've said.

 

[Xeno.of.athens]

There's a book I need to read called "Beyond The Salvation Wars : Why Both Protestant And Catholics Must Reimagine How We Are Saved". It looks awesome, and if / when I get the chance to buy and read it, I'll report back with thoughts. Matthew W. Bates seems to be really, really trying to build some bridges here, without holding back from criticizing both sides.

I think this is the kind of talk and thinking that can help people move forwards, not back.

You might like Richard Beck, too. He's a Protestant who seems to love the heck out of Catholics and the Orthodox. Neat guy.

I'm not so sure that criticising both sides is a virtue. it seems to smack of having a personal view that the author would regard as superior to either view that he is critiquing. of course many people think that their personal views are superior to the views of others, that's not such a terrible thing but there's no reason why I should accept that their view is superior.

 

[caffeinated.hermit]

I’m going to continue fellowshiping with my Catholic brethren near my church simply because they are not arrogant as the Catholics that I have interacted in this thread.

Few things can kill one's faith in the future of ecumenism than internet theology debates. Happily, I have the feeling once this life is over, we'll be kind of pleasantly surprised how many of us made it. Hoping I'm one of them.

 

[Xeno.of.athens]

Few things can kill one's faith in the future of ecumenism than internet theology debates. Happily, I have the feeling once this life is over, we'll be kind of pleasantly surprised how many of us made it. Hoping I'm one of them.

I hope you are too. God be praised for those who try to make peace. God be praised again for those who do not fear to speak the truth. truth is, after all, what God wants in the inward parts of a human being.

 

[Hentenza]

that claim is completely untrue.

I quoted you post. I pointed to why I said that. You really have no clue do you?

that claim is untrue for many reasons, not least of which is that Jesus established one Church not a plethora of denominations.

Jesus established the universal church and it is composed of all denominations including yours. Yours is only one of many.

that claim is just absurd, Catholics never claim a monopoly on God. and since Jesus is God we have never claimed The monopoly on Jesus Christ. it would be helpful if you would try to be more accurate in your statements about what you think Catholics teach or believe, so far. You have done a poor job of telling me what Catholics believe, I know that because I am a Catholic and I don't believe what you've said, what you said is just an absurd parody of Catholic views.

Let me repeat it back to you. “I know that because I’m not Catholic and I dont believe what you’ve said, what you said is just an absurd parody of anyone that does not hold your Catholic views.“

that claim is untrue, for one thing. Protestant churches have a varying degree of orthodoxy, and they define Orthodoxy differently from one another, as well as from The Catholic Church, and from The Orthodox Church. I believe that one would be very hard pressed to formulate a single statement of faith that every Protestant denomination would accept, unless the statement of belief were so minimal that it contained almost nothing of any real substance. as I've gathered from The posts in this thread The only elements that every Protestant would accept is faith in Jesus Christ and faith that he has risen from The dead. in Christian forums we can add The content of The Nicene creed, but I fear that some Protestant denominations would reject that. in any case, the Various Protestant denominations are not the equal of the Catholic Church they are different.

This is rich. Most Protestant churches are quite orthodox in their beliefs. Your comments are ignorant of what churches actually believe. Your statement here is denigrating and hurtful to other Christians. Secondly, your church and the Orthodox Church have been in schism since the 12th century particularly because of the intoxication of power vomited by your church then. There is a reason why most Protestant churches only recognize the first 7 councils and not the rest. You need to read some unbiased history of your church during the middle to upper Middle Ages to understand the apostacy that permeated in your church then.

what it is at best is the truth. you are, of course, free to call it arrogance if that pleases you.

I will.

does your church accept and teach The Real presence do you believe that in The Holy Eucharist you receive The actual Body and Blood of Christ or do you present it as a spiritual exercise in which some kind of spiritual body and blood of Christ is consumed. and is The denomination that you seem to be talking about episcopal, do you have bishops, or are you an independent church? Or a church that relies on a single pasture and a number of elders, as would be The case in a Presbyterian Church, regardless of what kind of church you are actually in, maintaining valid Holy Orders from A Catholic perspective means maintaining Genuine apostolic succession, and The denomination that started in 1500 and something or some later time, it is unlikely to have done that. so yes, a valid episcopate and a valid Eucharistic Sacrament it would be missing, but your baptism can be valid, if it is said in The name of The Father and of The Son and of The Holy Spirit and water is used and The intention is to receive The person into The church of God that is, in Jesus Christ.

Dude, your church does not have the monopoly in communion. Personally I don’t believe in real presence but that does not make me a lower Christian from your high horse position. Secondly, the scriptures does not describe your ecclesiastical hierarchy nor do I believe that your apostolic succession is accurate. Pope Linus, really?

yes we have the "nerve" to adore the body and blood of Christ. And yes it is special and yes, it is a presence of Christ that is quite unique, and since you reject it entirely you shouldn't object to me saying that you do not have it.

It’s absurd to worship a cracker. This doctrine has no basis in scripture or a historical basis. I don’t want it nor does any other church including other ancient, apostolical churches. You guys are on your own here.

Honestly do you really expect me to present Protestant doctrine as if it were my belief when I am in fact a catholic. of course my presentation is Catholic doctrine what do you expect that it would be? away with this kind of complaint you should not expect a Catholic to present something that is not Catholic belief as if it were Catholic belief.

But your thread was about unity……….

you seem determined to place yourself beneath the Catholic Church, well, have at it, it doesn't matter to me what position you think you ought to be in - Catholic views on Protestants are not what you claim them to be so why are you wasting my time and your own with complaints about something that just is not true and is very far from the truth.

Once again, I am merely critiquing your OP. I’m not complaining but merely critiquing your OP and intentions.

yes that is Right. by having valid apostolic succession by maintaining The sacraments as they were given to The church by Jesus Christ and by maintaining hierarchical church governance as Christ and The apostles gave it to us, we do in fact maintain The church that Jesus Christ established.

I’ll contest that. Your church is not the one establish in Pentecost nor the one that Jesus established. Your church is one of them, not the only one. Read Acts 2. Only “our friends” from Rome were there. Let me remind you that Pentecost happened in Jerusalem not Rome.

I am very glad you refrained from using harsher words, I am not glad that they occurred to you.

Yep Me too. But it is true that the arrogance of some here tests one’s patience.

I think The farce is The way you're replying to The things that I have written you haven't made much of an effort to deal with The substance of any of my posts, you've been making emotive appeals to some alleged evil that lies behind The words that I've used, you appear to pretend that referring to Catholic teaching as truth is a bad thing. obviously I am going to say that what The Catholic Church teaches is true. I would be stupid to say that it was false, but that I believe it.

I quoted and analyzed your OP with the hopes that you would realize your error. Instead you respond as if I am to blame. It really should not surprise me given your total disregard for other Christians as equals to you and your church. I don’t do emotive arguments so either learn from what I posted or just be on your way.

that claim is false. you have neither The power to read my mind, nor evidently to read what is written in my posts.

I have the power of observation and discernment. Your thread was never about unity Since unity to you is full acceptance of what your church teaches. Nothing else will do.

very good. You need not suffer my alleged arrogance any longer, my posts nevertheless will continue to present Catholic teaching as Truth. that is of course, because I believe that they are true.

And mine will continue to expose the real purpose of this thread.

you left The Catholic Church fine. it seems a very poor reason for leaving any church, but that is just my comment on what you've said.

I said it was ONE of the reasons. There are plenty of other reasons.

 

[Xeno.of.athens]

I quoted you post. I pointed to why I said that. You really have no clue do you?

Jesus established the universal church and it is composed of all denominations including yours. Yours is only one of many.

Let me repeat it back to you. “I know that because I’m not Catholic and I dont believe what you’ve said, what you said is just an absurd parody of anyone that does not hold your Catholic views.“

This is rich. Most Protestant churches are quite orthodox in their beliefs. Your comments are ignorant of what churches actually believe. Your statement here is denigrating and hurtful to other Christians. Secondly, your church and the Orthodox Church have been in schism since the 12th century particularly because of the intoxication of power vomited by your church then. There is a reason why most Protestant churches only recognize the first 7 councils and not the rest. You need to read some unbiased history of your church during the middle to upper Middle Ages to understand the apostacy that permeated in your church then.

I will.

Dude, your church does not have the monopoly in communion. Personally I don’t believe in real presence but that does not make me a lower Christian from your high horse position. Secondly, the scriptures does not describe your ecclesiastical hierarchy nor do I believe that your apostolic succession is accurate. Pope Linus, really?

It’s absurd to worship a cracker. This doctrine has no basis in scripture or a historical basis. I don’t want it nor does any other church including other ancient, apostolical churches. You guys are on your own here.

But your thread was about unity……….

Once again, I am merely critiquing your OP. I’m not complaining but merely critiquing your OP and intentions.

I’ll contest that. Your church is not the one establish in Pentecost nor the one that Jesus established. Your church is one of them, not the only one. Read Acts 2. Only “our friends” from Rome were there. Let me remind you that Pentecost happened in Jerusalem not Rome.

Yep Me too. But it is true that the arrogance of some here tests one’s patience.

I quoted and analyzed your OP with the hopes that you would realize your error. Instead you respond as if I am to blame. It really should not surprise me given your total disregard for other Christians as equals to you and your church. I don’t do emotive arguments so either learn from what I posted or just be on your way.

I have the power of observation and discernment. Your thread was never about unity Since unity to you is full acceptance of what your church teaches. Nothing else will do.

And mine will continue to expose the real purpose of this thread.

I said it was ONE of the reasons. There are plenty of other reasons.

really, the above post is just wasting time. There's nothing it in. Nothing at all. Just a complaint.

 

[Hentenza]

really, the above post is just wasting time. There's nothing it in. Nothing at all. Just a complaint.

 

[Xeno.of.athens]

View attachment 369292

well, thank you for your cartoon.