Was the choice of Mathias as Apostle 12 Kosher?

[timothyu]

The coming of the Spirit can be interpreted many ways when the Gospel of the Kingdom is left out of the equation.

 

[prodromos]

Ok so everyone is comfortable with casting lots as a way of determining God's will ???

Maybe they should have put a fleece out overnight and used condensation as a test.

 

[Carl Emerson]

OK so divination is OK as long as you pray first ???

 

[ViaCrucis]

Ok so everyone is comfortable with casting lots as a way of determining God's will ???

There's nothing in the text to suggest this was a problem, it was fully accepted by the Apostles and the Church at large.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[ViaCrucis]

Can we then comment on the appropriateness or otherwise of casting lots.

Is this something we should be doing today if you think it is appropriate.

If you think it is inappropriate - is this because it is akin to divination ???

Divination would be something very different. They didn't engage in divination. And this was also a very unique case: Jesus had ascended, but Pentecost had not yet occurred.

It doesn't sound very spiritual to draw lots to choose who would replace Judas among the Twelve, but it's what they did, and there is literally nothing to suggest this was wrong. At no point are they rebuked for this, corrected, at no point was Matthias' apostleship called into question. The Church has always spoken about St. Matthias the Apostle.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[ViaCrucis]

Was the Spirit not given in John 20:22 ??

For the binding and loosing of sins, which is why pastors today still carry on the apostolic ministry of Word and Sacrament. It's why every Sunday around the world there is Confession and Absolution in millions of churches.

The falling of the Spirit on Pentecost was for the whole Church in fulfillment of John the Baptist's prophecy and Christ's words.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[Carl Emerson]

For the binding and loosing of sins, which is why pastors today still carry on the apostolic ministry of Word and Sacrament. It's why every Sunday around the world there is Confession and Absolution in millions of churches.

The falling of the Spirit on Pentecost was for the whole Church in fulfillment of John the Baptist's prophecy and Christ's words.

-CryptoLutheran

So when do you think the Apostles were born again - there is no record of them being baptised.

 

[Carl Emerson]

So the question that remains is how do we determine what activities are acceptable - if drawing straws or throwing sticks is OK after prayer - what about pendulums, i Ching, astrology, tea cups, palms, divining rods?

Please define divination.

 

[Hammster]

So the question that remains is how do we determine what activities are acceptable - if drawing straws or throwing sticks is OK after prayer - what about pendulums, i Ching, astrology, tea cups, palms, divining rods?

Please define divination.

Fortunately, we know how to learn the will of God.


Therefore I urge you, brethren, by the mercies of God, to present your bodies a living and holy sacrifice, acceptable to God, which is your spiritual service of worship. And do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind, so that you may prove what the will of God is, that which is good and acceptable and perfect.
— Romans 12:1-2

 

[Carl Emerson]

With all due respect I think folks are dancing around the topic...

We have young believers on this forum looking for such answers right now.

 

[Hammster]

With all due respect I think folks are dancing around the topic...

We have young believers on this forum looking for such answers right now.

And I gave them an answer.

 

[public hermit]

Was Mathias God's choice given that casting lots is a doubtful way to ascertain God's will ?

That's a great question; I have wondered the same. I think 1) it was a common practice of making a random choice at that time, e.g., like flipping a coin and 2) it was intended to represent their faith that God would make the right choice. They had two choices of those who fit the qualification of disciple. They essentially flipped a coin; either one was legitimate. They just had to fill the spot

 

[martymonster]

Was Mathias God's choice given that casting lots is a doubtful way to ascertain God's will ?

Was No. 12 actually Paul ???

It is impossible to be outside of God's will anyway, so the results of casting lots, is exactly what he wants anyway.

Eph 1:11 In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:

 

[Carl Emerson]

And I gave them an answer.

So what advice do you give a believer that prays first and consults tarot cards?

 

[ViaCrucis]

So when do you think the Apostles were born again - there is no record of them being baptised.

There's no record of it. In Lutheran theology regeneration happens when faith is received, which can concur with Baptism but can occur before. That's why we constantly talk about "Word and Sacrament" together. It's abundantly clear that Christ's apostles had faith in Him, exactly when they received that saving faith would be a matter of pure speculation on our part. Both ancient and medieval fathers and theologians speculated and talked about the lack of their being baptized in the New Testament texts, with several diverse views. For example, when Jesus washes His disciples' feet and Peter says he would wish to be washed completely, Jesus says that Peter is already washed; suggesting to some commentators that Jesus therefore is, in effect, saying, "You are already baptized" even if Peter did not undergo the full baptismal rite as would come down through the apostolic ministry post-Pentecost (as Christian Baptism was not instituted until after the Lord's resurrection). Others have suggested that in the case of Jesus' apostles John's baptism was somehow sufficient for them, though not for others (e.g. Apollos, the Ephesian disciples) since the apostles had their baptism "completed" in Christ through their lived experiences with Him. And I've also heard still others speculate that while Jesus did not personally baptize anyone during His earthly ministry, after the resurrection He may (and again, it's purely speculation) have baptized His apostles and that the event is simply not recorded.

I don't hold to any view on the matter as I don't know there can be a fully satisfying answer.

But I am confident that the Apostles had what Baptism confers: new birth. Whether they themselves received Holy Baptism, we know that the command to go and baptize was given to them, and the word of God concerning that Baptism is clearly spelled out for us throughout the pages of Holy Scripture and in the clear and unambiguous confession of the Church from the beginning. And for me, that is satisfactory enough.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[ViaCrucis]

So what advice do you give a believer that prays first and consults tarot cards?

There's a world of difference between drawing lots and tarot cards. If the apostles were casting lots for divination, that would be sin. That's not what they were doing, however. They were casting lots to decide who would replace Judas. Both candidates were well respected already, and it appears that they decided to basically let the odds fall where they will. It's not like they were casting stones or studying entrails to see who should be the next apostle by divining anything--there were two candidates, and so they simply let RNG* do the rest.

*Random Number Generator/Generation. Often used in the context of games where a random number needs to be decided, such as through a dice roll, or in the case of video games, pieces of code which also randomly generate numbers.

Drawing lots, choosing the longest/shortest straw, rolling dice, all are historic methods of reaching an outcome through an un-predetermined manner by the use of randomness.

Again, it's not the most "spiritual" or "religious" thing for the Eleven to leave whether Joseph Bar Sabba (aka Justus) or Matthias would replace Judas--but it's what they did. They had two excellent people, Joseph and Matthias, and they left it up to chance, to a random number generator, and Matthias got the higher roll, and so he replaced Judas.

The assumption that this is divination is an unsubstantiated charge--and, once again, a huge charge. That's a serious charge to be accusing Christ's Apostles of effectively witchcraft.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[Clare73]

Yes, Mathias' appointment was legitimate. Paul didn't replace anyone, Paul identifies himself apart from the Twelve, and goes so far as to call himself "the least of the apostles". There were more than just the Twelve and Paul, the New Testament alone mentions Barnabas, Apollos, Silas, Andronicus, and Junia. Tradition records many more as apostles.

-CryptoLutheran

The NT uses the word apostle of more than the ones selected by Christ, which is the common understanding of the word.

 

[ViaCrucis]

The NT uses the word apostle of more than the ones selected by Christ, which is the common understanding of the word.

Right, we see other apostles in the New Testament. I understand the significance of Jesus having selected the Twelve; but strictly speaking the New Testament doesn't restrict "apostle" to like this.

The only real metric for who was an apostle was that the apostles were recognized and acknowledged by such by the other apostles themselves (Paul's apostleship was affirmed by the others, even in spite of the hostilities he sometimes faced, such as those so called "super-apostles" who were trying to undermine his ministry in Corinth, or the Judaizers who came from Jerusalem). And by the Church at large.

The reason why there are no apostles after the first century is because there's simply no real evidence of any other apostles. While I can recall a single time when Ignatius of Antioch was called "apostle" by a 2nd century writer (I would have to look it up again to find the exact source); Ignatius himself does not seem to be of this opinion. And indeed with these later sub-apostolic writers we see them refusing to even so much as compare themselves to their apostolic predecessors. For example, Clement in his epistle clearly, though bishop of Rome and successor of Peter's ministry there, insists on being humble saying that he cannot speak with the authority of Peter or Paul, as they were apostles, and he was not.

So it's clear that second and third generation church leaders understood their position in the Church as distinct from those of the apostles. The season of the Apostles came and went, and it was necessary for the founding and establishment of the Christian Church. So Paul says that the Church is "built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, with Christ Jesus Himself the Chief Cornerstone" (Ephesians 2:20).

I'm not saying the "selected directly by Jesus" metric is inherently bad, it's just not universally applicable. I think the reason why we don't have later generations of apostles is simply because there were no more apostles. The apostolic work now fell to the churches, and to those who had been placed in the position of continuing the apostles' work: bishops and presbyters, aka, pastors. The historic record and witness of the ancient Church suggests as much.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[Clare73]

Ok so everyone is comfortable with casting lots as a way of determining God's will ???

Scripture seems to be so in Proverbs 16:33; Numbers 26:55, Numbers 33:54, 34:13; Joshua 14:2, 18:6; Judges 20:9; Nehemiah 10:34.

 

[Clare73]

So if the broad definition of divination is...
Determining a way forward or future event based on the pattern or position of physical objects...

This would include lots, tarots, i Ching, astrology, tea cups, palms, divining rods, pendulums and the like.
And if this is forbidden according to Deut 18
And the disciples were not yet blessed with the empowering of the Holy Spirit at Pentecost and were told to wait for it...
And if they simply fell back on Jewish tradition meantime rather than trusting in His holy Word - what then ???

That "tradition" was God's instruction to them, therefore, he determined the outcome.