Was the choice of Mathias as Apostle 12 Kosher?

Maria Billingsley

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Was Mathias God's choice given that casting lots is a doubtful way to ascertain God's will ?

Was No. 12 actually Paul ???
We are outsiders looking in and probably have a better vantage point. So I would say that he is the 12th. IMHO. Afterall, I am guessing he witnessed Jesus Christ of Nazareth at some point in Jerusalem before he was appointed by Jesus to preach on the road to Damascus. Blessings.
 
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CallofChrist

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I've always thought that Paul was the "replacement" apostle, not Mathias. The apostles didn't have the holy spirit fallen upon them when they decided on a replacement via lots. Also, you never hear of Mathias ever again in scripture, which seems a bit odd. The other apostles are always said to have done something, even if it was just to accompany Jesus, but there is not one deed whatsoever of Mathias mentioned.

I could be wrong, but those are my brief thoughts on it. I am interested in what others say!

Rev 21:14 And the wall of the city had twelve foundations, and on them were the twelve names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb.

Ephesians 1: 1 From Paul, chosen by God to be an apostle of Christ Jesus.
 
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Guojing

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Those who think Paul is a perfect substitute to the other 11, as in he is preaching the exact same gospel as Peter, John et al, tend to regard Matthias as the wrong choice.

Those who think Paul has a unique calling and preached a unique gospel that is different from the other 11 (Galatians 1:11-12), will regard Matthias as the correct choice.
 
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ViaCrucis

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Was Mathias God's choice given that casting lots is a doubtful way to ascertain God's will ?

Was No. 12 actually Paul ???

Yes, Mathias' appointment was legitimate. Paul didn't replace anyone, Paul identifies himself apart from the Twelve, and goes so far as to call himself "the least of the apostles". There were more than just the Twelve and Paul, the New Testament alone mentions Barnabas, Apollos, Silas, Andronicus, and Junia. Tradition records many more as apostles.

-CryptoLutheran
 
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ByTheSpirit

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I've never liked how the church identifies what an "Apostle" is. I don't believe an Apostle is strictly someone who has seen Jesus. Because others are listed in scripture as Apostles, like Barnabus who almost certainly never met Jesus.

Now to the question, I would say Matthias is a legitimate Apostle. Just because he isn't mentioned elsewhere doesn't mean anything. Most of the Apostles are not mentioned after the first couple of chapters of Acts, so that's a rather weak stance to have.

Paul had a unique calling that set him apart from the others in a sense but his position didn't mean he was God's choice to replace Judas.
 
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Mr. M

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Was Mathias God's choice given that casting lots is a doubtful way to ascertain God's will ?
First, Peter was led by the Spirit to act as the necessity
of their actions was established to fulfill scripture. v. 20.
Secondly, they did not simply "cast lots" but addressed
the Lord directly in prayer, which is the reason for casting
lots (as Joshua did to establish land inheritances), leaving
the choice with the Lord.
Hopefully prayer is still valued as such.
Lastly, the Spirit gave very specific requirements for
consideration, which only two met. PAUL DID NOT!
"of these men who have accompanied
us all the time that the Lord Jesus went in and out
among us, beginning from the baptism of John
to that day when He was taken up from us."


Acts 1:
20
For it is written in the Book of Psalms:
Let his dwelling place be desolate,
And let no one live in it;
and,
Let another take his office.
21
Therefore, of these men who have accompanied
us all the time that the Lord Jesus went in and out
among us,
22 beginning from the baptism of John to that day
when He was taken up from us
, one of these must
become a witness with us of His resurrection.
23 And they proposed two: Joseph called Barsabas,
who was surnamed Justus, and Matthias.
24 And they prayed and said, You, O Lord,
who know the hearts of all, show which of these two
You have chosen
25 to take part in this ministry and apostleship from which
Judas by transgression fell, that he might go to his own place.
26 And they cast their lots, and the lot fell on Matthias.
And he was numbered with the eleven apostles.
 
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ViaCrucis

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I've never liked how the church identifies what an "Apostle" is. I don't believe an Apostle is strictly someone who has seen Jesus. Because others are listed in scripture as Apostles, like Barnabus who almost certainly never met Jesus.

Now to the question, I would say Matthias is a legitimate Apostle. Just because he isn't mentioned elsewhere doesn't mean anything. Most of the Apostles are not mentioned after the first couple of chapters of Acts, so that's a rather weak stance to have.

Paul had a unique calling that set him apart from the others in a sense but his position didn't mean he was God's choice.

Most of those, like Barnabas, are said to have been among the seventy that Jesus sent out among the towns and villages. Though in cases like Apollos, he was a convert who had previously been following the teachings of John the Baptist.

I don't know that there is a one size fits all definition of an apostle except that they were recognized as such by the Church. Which is why as the first century comes to a close and the generation of the apostles closes with it, we just don't see any new apostles in the Church. Had there been, someone would have written about it. Rather the witness of the Church suggests that rather than appoint new apostles, the apostles were putting the legwork in for the long haul, by having established communities of Christians with pastors to continue the apostolic work in their stead. Which is why the Church understood bishops and presbyters (pastors) as being successors of the apostles, sitting in the seat of the apostles. The historical record on this is fairly straight forward. The sole exception is how certain individuals have received honorifics that include "the apostolic" or "equal-to-the-apostles" or "apostle to the <group>". So, for example, Patrick is remembered as "apostle to the Irish" and Cyril and Methodius are remembered as "apostles to the Slavs".

-CryptoLutheran
 
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ByTheSpirit

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Most of those, like Barnabas, are said to have been among the seventy that Jesus sent out among the towns and villages. Though in cases like Apollos, he was a convert who had previously been following the teachings of John the Baptist.

I don't know that there is a one size fits all definition of an apostle except that they were recognized as such by the Church. Which is why as the first century comes to a close and the generation of the apostles closes with it, we just don't see any new apostles in the Church. Had there been, someone would have written about it. Rather the witness of the Church suggests that rather than appoint new apostles, the apostles were putting the legwork in for the long haul, by having established communities of Christians with pastors to continue the apostolic work in their stead. Which is why the Church understood bishops and presbyters (pastors) as being successors of the apostles, sitting in the seat of the apostles. The historical record on this is fairly straight forward. The sole exception is how certain individuals have received honorifics that include "the apostolic" or "equal-to-the-apostles" or "apostle to the <group>". So, for example, Patrick is remembered as "apostle to the Irish" and Cyril and Methodius are remembered as "apostles to the Slavs".

-CryptoLutheran
Perhaps Barnabus was one of those 70, that's possible, but if we stick to just scripture it's impossible to ascertain. I can see how church tradition may fit in there but from a strictly scripture standpoint Barnabus never met Jesus.

I could see how it'd be difficult to anoint Apostles with the church being so fractured in its current state.

One thing I'm very confident in is most of those who parade around now with the title of Apostle are decidedly not so.
 
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timothyu

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To them, casting lots was doing God's will, Rather than use their will to choose as God frowns on that, they opened an avenue for God to show His decision between the two. Maybe nations should take a hint from that and save the people a lot of election angst.
 
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Was Mathias God's choice given that casting lots is a doubtful way to ascertain God's will ?

Was No. 12 actually Paul ???
Peter certainly thought it was.


“For it is written in the book of Psalms,
‘Let his homestead be made desolate,
And let no one dwell in it’;
and,
‘Let another man take his office.’
— Acts 1:20

There’s never any correction for that choice.
 
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CallofChrist

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Looking over the choices of readings for the Day of Pentecost in the Revised Common Lectionary, I ran across this from the reading from the book of Acts. I think this reading possibly makes me change my mind about Mathias:

Acts 2:14a But Peter, standing with the eleven, raised his voice and addressed them,

Now I am a bit confused.
 
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Carl Emerson

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So if the broad definition of divination is...

Determining a way forward or future event based on the pattern or position of physical objects...

This would include lots, tarots, i Ching, astrology, tea cups, palms, divining rods, pendulums and the like.

And if this is forbidden according to Deut 18

And the disciples were not yet blessed with the empowering of the Holy Spirit at Pentecost and were told to wait for it...

And if they simply fell back on Jewish tradition meantime rather than trusting in His holy Word - what then ???
 
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Carl Emerson

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Peter certainly thought it was.


“For it is written in the book of Psalms,
‘Let his homestead be made desolate,
And let no one dwell in it’;
and,
‘Let another man take his office.’
— Acts 1:20

There’s never any correction for that choice.

Peter also thought it was a great idea to build three tabernacles on the mount of transfiguration...

Peter also thought it was a great idea to attack the high priest with a sword.

He was an 'ideas man' and didn't always get it right.
 
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