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Yet they apparently did not go to Heaven ... that is one difference.
Isn't that what it's all about - afterlife?
Of course.This is true. However, there are at least 3 "compartments" in Sheol.
We know from Jesus' story (not parable) of Lazarus and the rich man that Lazarus went to "Abraham's bosom", or paradise, while the rich man went to "torments". Interestingly, they could converse back and forth, but could not pass over to the other side. Luke 16:19-31.
There is also a compartment for chained angels, from their sin related to Gen 6. This is mentioned in Jude 6 - And angels who did not keep their own domain, but abandoned their proper abode, He has kept in eternal bonds under darkness for the judgment of the great day.
Peter makes the same point in 2 Pet 2:4 - For if God did not spare angels when they sinned, but cast them into hell and committed them to pits of darkness, reserved for judgment.
1 Kings 3:28 cannot be denied. I think there are 2 different issues. Until Solomon's heart was turned away by his wives, I believe his wisdom came from the Lord. But after his heart was turned away, I don't think he had any wisdom at all.But here is the distinction between the wisdoms ...
JAS 3:13 Who is wise and understanding among you? Let him show it by his good life, by deeds done in the humility that comes from wisdom. 14 But if you harbor bitter envy and selfish ambition in your hearts, do not boast about it or deny the truth. 15 Such "wisdom" does not come down from heaven but is earthly, unspiritual, of the devil. 16 For where you have envy and selfish ambition, there you find disorder and every evil practice.
JAS 3:17 But the wisdom that comes from heaven is first of all pure; then peace-loving, considerate, submissive, full of mercy and good fruit, impartial and sincere. 18 Peacemakers who sow in peace raise a harvest of righteousness.
I do not see how Solomon's wisdom was from Heaven.
I certainly don't agree with universalism. But wasn't Israel chosen to be a nation of evangelists for the masses? Of course they failed, but through their many dispersions, I believe the faithful did evangelize. Jonah is one example. Though he wasn't part of any dispersion.Of course.
The Heaven in OT nonetheless was closed to the masses.
I don't see any appreciable difference between grace and faith at any time.Christ opened it for us.
Salvation in the OT might be the same, grace and faith, but the elements are way too different.
Yes, these clearly are different. For example, the indelling of the Holy Spirit wasn't for all believers in the OT. Very few were indwelt. David prayed that God would not take the Spirit from him. But Jesus promised that the Holy Spirit would be given to all believers permanently.Now we are adopted children, sealed by Spirit ...
If we overlook these things, we are gravitating to OT.
Yes. But remember, heaven is temporary. Rev 21 speaks of this present heaven and earth passing away and God creating a new heaven and earth post-Millennium, and heaven will come down to earth.And OT is rather harsh.
It presents the HOPE to salvation.
NT gives us the VERY Heaven.
Isn't this why we believe?
Of course.
The Heaven in OT nonetheless was closed to the masses.
Christ opened it for us.
Salvation in the OT might be the same, grace and faith, but the elements are way too different.
Now we are adopted children, sealed by Spirit ...
If we overlook these things, we are gravitating to OT.
And OT is rather harsh.
It presents the HOPE to salvation.
NT gives us the VERY Heaven.
Isn't this why we believe?
Heaven in the OT was just as accessible as it is today. Unrepentant sinners are excluded. The elements of grace and faith (whatever that means) are the same today as in the OT. I'm not sure why you are making these distinctions.
12 For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek, for the same Lord over all is rich to all who call upon Him. 13 For “whoever calls on the name of the Lord shall be saved.”[g]
32
And it shall come to pass
That whoever calls on the name of the Lord Shall be saved.
For in Mount Zion and in Jerusalem there shall be deliverance,
As the Lord has said,
Among the remnant whom the Lord calls.
25 And Adam knew his wife again, and she bore a son and named him Seth, “For God has appointed another seed for me instead of Abel, whom Cain killed.” 26 And as for Seth, to him also a son was born; and he named him Enosh.[c] Then men began to call on the name of the Lord.
Ok, let's assume that.1 Kings 3:28 cannot be denied. I think there are 2 different issues. Until Solomon's heart was turned away by his wives, I believe his wisdom came from the Lord. But after his heart was turned away, I don't think he had any wisdom at all.
I think James 3 would describe Solomon before his heart was turned away.
But weren't people of faith go to Abraham' Bosom?Heaven in the OT was just as accessible as it is today. Unrepentant sinners are excluded. The elements of grace and faith (whatever that means) are the same today as in the OT. I'm not sure why you are making these distinctions.
Of course they evangelize ... but what exactly DID they evangelize?I certainly don't agree with universalism. But wasn't Israel chosen to be a nation of evangelists for the masses? Of course they failed, but through their many dispersions, I believe the faithful did evangelize. Jonah is one example. Though he wasn't part of any dispersion.
Same formula different application.I don't see any appreciable difference between grace and faith at any time.
Of course.Yes, these clearly are different. For example, the indelling of the Holy Spirit wasn't for all believers in the OT. Very few were indwelt. David prayed that God would not take the Spirit from him. But Jesus promised that the Holy Spirit would be given to all believers permanently.
True.Yes. But remember, heaven is temporary. Rev 21 speaks of this present heaven and earth passing away and God creating a new heaven and earth post-Millennium, and heaven will come down to earth.
True.Salvation is by grace through faith.
Grace and faith never changed.Yes it is the same salvation by grace through faith back then and today.
Paul uses an OT passage in Romans 10 to demonstrate this.
Or, Gen 4:26 could mean a more simpler interpretation.Going way back to Gen 4, an interesting verse.
25 And Adam knew his wife again, and she bore a son and named him Seth, For God has appointed another seed for me instead of Abel, whom Cain killed. 26 And as for Seth, to him also a son was born; and he named him Enosh.[c] Then men began to call on the name of the Lord.
To call on the name of the LORD means salvation for all those who call on Him are among the remnant who he calls. As He has said in Joel 2.
I tend to agree with you.I am going to agree that Solomon was saved.
He certainly did much evil though.
I am saved. And I do much evil.I am going to agree that Solomon was saved.
He certainly did much evil though.
Yes, I agree. The wisdom of this world clearly is totally inferior to God's wisdom. In fact, that was Paul's point in 1 Cor 2:6-16.Ok, let's assume that.
But what about Proverbs and Ecclesiastes?
Everything in-there is in the context of "under the sun" - the world.
It appears to me that the wisdom in these Books was how to live in the world and how useless that wisdom is, since God is sovereign over it.
I believe (better say "I think") that Solomon understood that the Wisdom of the World "does not work" in the context of God's wisdom.
What do you think?
I have a diferent take on it. From Jesus' story of Lazarus and the rich man, we know that the rich man wanted to spare his brothers of coming to torments, and requested that Abraham send Lazarus back to warn them. And Abraham's reply: 29 But Abraham said, They have Moses and the Prophets; let them hear them. 30 But he said, No, father Abraham, but if someone goes to them from the dead, they will repent! 31 But he said to him, If they do not listen to Moses and the Prophets, they will not be persuaded even if someone rises from the dead.Of course they evangelize ... but what exactly DID they evangelize?
Grace and faith are the backbone, but what did they teach exactly?
Here is the way I understand their teaching ... step-by-step throughout the OT.
1. There is One God, the Almighty.
2. Unlike the demons and other gods (same thing), God is good.
3. We are sinners.
4. We want Heaven yet cannot reach it on our own.
5. Our situation is hopeless. Sheol awaits us and the best corner of Sheol is the environment of sadness.
6. YET, because God is NOT like demons, and because God is GOOD and God is LOVE, He HIMSELF will save us ...
That is the Gospel preached to nations, the way I understand the OT.
From Rev 21, it would appear that God actually comes down from heaven to dwell with mankind permanently.True.
But there is also Heaven where God dwells.
A place WITH God.
And Christ promised us "rooms" (actually rather large rooms) where we will be WITH Christ.
Christ is in Heaven and we will be with Him.
And new Heavens.
Sure, but we would then live in the New Jerusalem during this major construction and renovation.
Hm. Interesting.Some say New Jerusalem is a cube, but it is not a cube.
It is of the shape of pyramid.
The only shape of New Jerusalem as described in the Bible could be either a cube or a pyramid.
Since Christ is the Cornerstone and Capstone - pyramid.
Very much so!Of course, Satan is trying to use his own pyramids, Egypt and all, but that's another topic.
Fascinating topic, however.
When, oh when, will it stop?I am saved. And I do much evil.
On that we can agree.When, oh when, will it stop?
On a more sober note, we're all in the same boat. Thank God for His matchless grace!
Grace and faith never changed.
Or, Gen 4:26 could mean a more simpler interpretation.
People started actually calling on God as many do today without the context of salvation. Apparently Enosh influenced the people around him in some manner that after him people began calling on the name of the Lord. Don't know.
Thanks,
Ed
Of course they did.I have a diferent take on it. From Jesus' story of Lazarus and the rich man, we know that the rich man wanted to spare his brothers of coming to torments, and requested that Abraham send Lazarus back to warn them. And Abraham's reply: 29 But Abraham said, They have Moses and the Prophets; let them hear them. 30 But he said, No, father Abraham, but if someone goes to them from the dead, they will repent! 31 But he said to him, If they do not listen to Moses and the Prophets, they will not be persuaded even if someone rises from the dead.
I believe that "Moses and the prophets contained the same gospel message we believe today: place your faith in the Messiah for salvation.
It is not that God is coming to man, it is that the Kingdom of God is breaching the world.From Rev 21, it would appear that God actually comes down from heaven to dwell with mankind permanently.
v.1-3 - 1 Then I saw a new heaven and a new earth; for the first heaven and the first earth passed away, and there is no longer any sea. 2 And I saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, made ready as a bride adorned for her husband. 3 And I heard a loud voice from the throne, saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is among men, and He will dwell among them, and they shall be His people, and God Himself will be among them,
The shape is pyramid since Christ is both Cornerstone and Capstone (capstone is the tip).Hm. Interesting.
Rev 21:16-17 - 16 The city is laid out as a square, and its length is as great as the width; and he measured the city with the rod, fifteen hundred miles; its length and width and height are equal. 17 And he measured its wall, seventy-two yards, according to human measurements, which are also angelic measurements.
Kinda sounds oblongish. But I guess it could be sorta pyramidish.
Very much so!
But the entire message of the OT is the record of disobedience, not of obedience.Yes, but is that really men calling on the name of the Lord?
I think it has a deeper meaning, one that comes from the change of a new heart, not a temporary state of distress which when passed, a man goes back to his former way of living.
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