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Was Mary without sin?

Was Mary without sin?

  • Yes

  • No


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DiscipleDave

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very true.

I just don't think a 50/50 is good Christology... doesn't change the matter, of course.

confused what it has to do with admonishing the status of woman though?
very true.

I just don't think a 50/50 is good Christology... doesn't change the matter, of course.

confused what it has to do with admonishing the status of woman though?

What am i to do with this generation that is before my eyes. The message had nothing to do with the numbers, only used the numbers to make a point, that only Jesus was part divine, and that Mary was not. Are you yet without understanding ? Mary was 100% human. for those who will debate about numbers, you cannot have more then 100%, it is complete. A person is gives 100% has gave all that they could possibly have given. Anything more then 100% is just illogical. Funny how satan will cause people to veer away from the topic, only to criticize others because of formalities, altogether not getting the message. Mary was 100% human, this is fact and is undebatable, there is not arguement here. She had a human mother and a human father, making her 100% human. Children can understand this. and they shall judge us. Jesus was not 100% human, because He had a divine Father, He did not have a human father, Therefore, now follow me on this. He is only 50% human, that is HALF for those who need clarifying, 50% of something, being in fact 1/2 of something. Therefore Jesus is in fact 50% Human, and 50% divine. If you are yet without understanding concerning the numbers, email me, and i will be more then happy to explain to you what percentages mean. Anyway the main point of the message, wasn't not the percentages, but was that Jesus was not fully human, and Mary was. Mary sinned just as well as all fully humans have.

^i^
 
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DiscipleDave

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I am so sorry. I have a time making myself clear, a flaw, and I know it.

Sometimes when reading a post, an uneasy feeling comes over me about the expressions used. I know that if I were in the physical presence of that person, I would have to get away quickly and as far as I can.

Jesus Christ was infinitely gentle and patient with women; any who speak of women as lower somehow or less value or more to be suspected of sin does not impress me as one who wishes to walk with Our Teacher.

Not you, not at all do I feel that way in your words.

Just an old lady's intuitions working feebly.


:sigh:
i hope you are not referring to me, and my post, for in none of them, have i belittled women in the slightest, and saying that Mary was 100 % human is a Truth, and saying the Jesus was 50% human and 50% Divine is also Truth, this does not in any way put down women, For in the eyes of God there is neither male nor female, but all He sees is the heart of each. In Heaven there is neither male nor female. So if you think i have some how put down women or belittled them in any way whatsoever, then please inform me what i said that you think did this. Matters of fact if anyone who reads this, thinks that i have in some way belittled women, or put them down in any way, please scroll up and read everything that i have said, and then tell me, at which point did i do such an evil thing in the sight of my Master and Lord, Jesus Christ. Thank you for pointing this error out to me, if in fact i have did this evil thing.

^i^
 
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Uphill Battle

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What am i to do with this generation that is before my eyes. The message had nothing to do with the numbers, only used the numbers to make a point, that only Jesus was part divine, and that Mary was not. Are you yet without understanding ? Mary was 100% human. for those who will debate about numbers, you cannot have more then 100%, it is complete. A person is gives 100% has gave all that they could possibly have given. Anything more then 100% is just illogical. Funny how satan will cause people to veer away from the topic, only to criticize others because of formalities, altogether not getting the message. Mary was 100% human, this is fact and is undebatable, there is not arguement here. She had a human mother and a human father, making her 100% human. Children can understand this. and they shall judge us. Jesus was not 100% human, because He had a divine Father, He did not have a human father, Therefore, now follow me on this. He is only 50% human, that is HALF for those who need clarifying, 50% of something, being in fact 1/2 of something. Therefore Jesus is in fact 50% Human, and 50% divine. If you are yet without understanding concerning the numbers, email me, and i will be more then happy to explain to you what percentages mean. Anyway the main point of the message, wasn't not the percentages, but was that Jesus was not fully human, and Mary was. Mary sinned just as well as all fully humans have.

^i^
there is no need to be condescending.

How does God become 50% of a God?

and applying your line of thinking, God the father is 33.33% God, Jesus is 33.33% God, and the Holy Spirit is 33.33% God. (don't know whom should get the 0.01 percent extra.)

Fully, God, Fully Man.
 
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PassthePeace1

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What am i to do with this generation that is before my eyes. The message had nothing to do with the numbers, only used the numbers to make a point, that only Jesus was part divine, and that Mary was not. Are you yet without understanding ? Mary was 100% human. for those who will debate about numbers, you cannot have more then 100%, it is complete. A person is gives 100% has gave all that they could possibly have given. Anything more then 100% is just illogical. Funny how satan will cause people to veer away from the topic, only to criticize others because of formalities, altogether not getting the message. Mary was 100% human, this is fact and is undebatable, there is not arguement here. She had a human mother and a human father, making her 100% human. Children can understand this. and they shall judge us. Jesus was not 100% human, because He had a divine Father, He did not have a human father, Therefore, now follow me on this. He is only 50% human, that is HALF for those who need clarifying, 50% of something, being in fact 1/2 of something. Therefore Jesus is in fact 50% Human, and 50% divine. If you are yet without understanding concerning the numbers, email me, and i will be more then happy to explain to you what percentages mean. Anyway the main point of the message, wasn't not the percentages, but was that Jesus was not fully human, and Mary was. Mary sinned just as well as all fully humans have.

^i^

Oh mercy, Jesus was both fully human and fully divine.:swoon:
 
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Angeldove97

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Jesus can't just be 50% human and 50% God. He is fully human and fully God. I look at it this way... physically He had a human body (which means He was 100% human PHYSICALLY). Spiritually He was 100% God, in full essence of the Spirit. Not half and half.
 
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Latreia

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Mary was human, therefore she was born into sin, being human.
Jesus was not only human, but was divine. So then Mary was 100% human, just like you, just like me, born of a human Father and a human Mother. Jesus was born of a human Mother, and His Father was not human, but was divine. Jesus never committed any sins because He was 50% divine, but was tempted by satan to commit sin, because He was 50% human. Mary way 100% human, 0 % divine, but out of all the 100% humans on the Earth, she was chosen to give birth to the 1/2 human 1/2 god child, called Jesus. The only thing that makes her any different then any other female on this planet, it that she, being a mere human female, gave birth to the Son of god, she was chosen. But she like any human before her, or after her, had committed many sins, as a child, in adolescence, and the such. However at the time a female needed to be chosen to have the the Son of God, one had to be in the lineage of David, and had to be pure, which at that time Mary WAS PURE ( not saying she was always pure, only that she was pure when she was chosen ) Therefore she was chosen to give birth to the Son of God.
Humans, have put her on a pedastal to worship her. But Scriptures teach:

Lk:1:28: And the angel came in unto her, and said, Hail, thou that art highly favoured, the Lord is with thee: blessed art thou among women. ( notice it does not say among all people, only she is blessed above all women, because she was chosen among all the women )

Was Mary born of a woman ? Yes she was. Did you know Scriptures teach that John the Baptist was greater then even Mary, Yet Mary is put on a pedastol and worshiped, yet John the Baptist is not.

Mt:11:11: Verily I say unto you, Among them that are born of women there hath not risen a greater than John the Baptist: notwithstanding he that is least in the kingdom of heaven is greater than he.

THERE IS NONE GREATER THEN JOHN THE BAPTIST, this includes Mary, and yes she was born of a woman. Now of coarse if you hold Mary to be somthing more then she is, you will disagree with this, but that still doesn't change the fact that she's not. She is blessed above all women, because she was chose to give birth to the Son of God. This is what makes her special, but she is no different then any female on this planet, she has a human Father, and a human Mother, and she is in fact 100% HUMAN, no different then you or i. to put her on a pedastal to worship her, is just plain wrong.

^i^

Disciple Dave, glad to hear how convinced you are about your beliefs.

Another path, yet one of so many, only God knows.

None of us actually KNOW, otherwise how should we worship God?

You and Disciple Dave seem to be missing the mark, so to speak..



Oh, dear, numbers used to demean the hopes of others are not relevent here, Jesus makes no use of them to admonish the status of women, let alone accusing them personally of being rank sinners from birth.

These are mathematical percentiles, useless in matters of faith, I fear.

Originally Posted by Latreia
I am so sorry. I have a time making myself clear, a flaw, and I know it.

Sometimes when reading a post, an uneasy feeling comes over me about the expressions used. I know that if I were in the physical presence of that person, I would have to get away quickly and as far as I can.

Jesus Christ was infinitely gentle and patient with women; any who speak of women as lower somehow or less value or more to be suspected of sin does not impress me as one who wishes to walk with Our Teacher.

Not you, not at all do I feel that way in your words.

Just an old lady's intuitions working feebly.


:sigh:

i hope you are not referring to me, and my post, for in none of them, have i belittled women in the slightest, and saying that Mary was 100 % human is a Truth, and saying the Jesus was 50% human and 50% Divine is also Truth, this does not in any way put down women, For in the eyes of God there is neither male nor female, but all He sees is the heart of each. In Heaven there is neither male nor female. So if you think i have some how put down women or belittled them in any way whatsoever, then please inform me what i said that you think did this. Matters of fact if anyone who reads this, thinks that i have in some way belittled women, or put them down in any way, please scroll up and read everything that i have said, and then tell me, at which point did i do such an evil thing in the sight of my Master and Lord, Jesus Christ. Thank you for pointing this error out to me, if in fact i have did this evil thing.
^i^

If the Lord has omitted in my heart the dogma that babies and children are born sinners, that we must look at young girls as sinners first, that even though victims, they are still sinners, I hope that I may be forgiven.


"The only thing that makes her any different then any other female on this planet, it that she, being a mere human female, gave birth to the Son of god, she was chosen. But she like any human before her, or after her, had committed many sins, as a child, in adolescence, and the such."

You were not there. Is there no more truth in the world of our Lord God than only in scriptures? Not everything that ever was got written down. You wouldnt even have scriptures to read today, were it not for the Roman Catholic monasteries where the written word of the gospels, and much much more, were protected by monks who believed in the purity of the Blessed Virgin.

"THERE IS NONE GREATER THEN JOHN THE BAPTIST, this includes Mary, and yes she was born of a woman. Now of coarse if you hold Mary to be somthing more then she is, you will disagree with this, but that still doesn't change the fact that she's not."

As I have posted, you seem so convinced about your beliefs that I do not understand why you cannot allow the members of the Roman Catholic Church, which have numbered in the millions for centuries any right to theirs.

"This is what makes her special, but she is no different then any female on this planet, she has a human Father, and a human Mother, and she is in fact 100% HUMAN, no different then you or I. to put her on a pedastal to worship her, is just plain wrong."

Again, from your own personal conviction you demand that so many others abandon all of theirs.

Yet, in the end, you cannot abide any kind of dissent or an alternate perspective of your posts.

Consider that.

icon2.gif
 
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OrthodoxyUSA

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If the Lord has omitted in my heart the dogma that babies and children are born sinners, that we must look at young girls as sinners first, that even though victims, they are still sinners, I hope that I may be forgiven.




You were not there. Is there no more truth in the world of our Lord God than only in scriptures? Not everything that ever was got written down. You wouldnt even have scriptures to read today, were it not for the Roman Catholic monasteries where the written word of the gospels, and much much more, were protected by monks who believed in the purity of the Blessed Virgin.



As I have posted, you seem so convinced about your beliefs that I do not understand why you cannot allow the members of the Roman Catholic Church, which have numbered in the millions for centuries any right to theirs.

"This is what makes her special, but she is no different then any female on this planet, she has a human Father, and a human Mother, and she is in fact 100% HUMAN, no different then you or I. to put her on a pedastal to worship her, is just plain wrong."

Again, from your own personal conviction you demand that so many others abandon all of theirs.

Yet, in the end, you cannot abide any kind of dissent or an alternate perspective of your posts.

Consider that.

icon2.gif


That's an even hand you seem to work with.

Hard to come by these days.

Forgive me...
 
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Latreia

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If the Lord has omitted in my heart the dogma that babies and children are born sinners, that we must look at young girls as sinners first, that even though victims, they are still sinners, I hope that I may be forgiven.




You were not there. Is there no more truth in the world of our Lord God than only in scriptures? Not everything that ever was got written down. You wouldnt even have scriptures to read today, were it not for the Roman Catholic monasteries where the written word of the gospels, and much much more, were protected by monks who believed in the purity of the Blessed Virgin.



As I have posted, you seem so convinced about your beliefs that I do not understand why you cannot allow the members of the Roman Catholic Church, which have numbered in the millions for centuries any right to theirs.




That's an even hand you seem to work with.

Hard to come by these days.

Forgive me...

Was this last directed to...? This is from me, not DD:

Latreia= "Again, from your own personal conviction you demand that so many others abandon all of theirs.

Yet, in the end, you cannot abide any kind of dissent or an alternate perspective of your posts.

Consider that."

I guess I just need a little support.


icon2.gif
 
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Catherineanne

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what does this have to do with proving Mary didn't die? We are talking physical death, which we all experience. The argument "they are alive" doesn't mean they did not experience physical death.

JESUS experienced physical death, and he was arguably more alive than any human can claim.


You might have been talking physical death. I was merely pointing out that the phrase 'dead Christian' is a contradiction in terms, because there is no such thing.

Ergo, whatever might have happened to Mary or any other Christian, none of them are dead, nor can be said to be dead now. They are in eternity, with God.

The point is often made that there is no point praying to dead people. This is quite right. But there are no dead Christians from God's point of view, and nor should there be from ours, if we share his view of the world, rather than sharing the world's view of the world.

And speaking of God's point of view, imho, any comment which is disrespectful of Our Lady is also disrespectful of God, who chose her from among all women to bear his son. This unique event in history was accepted with total submission to God's will by a young girl who in our day would probably still be in High School, and who bore God himself in her womb, brought him into the world, and fed him at her breast.

We seek God's grace every day of our lives. Gabriel greets Mary as 'full of grace'. I wish the posts on this thread could be called the same.

Even without tradition, Scripture alone ought to be enough to keep anyone silent who cannot speak respectfully of Mary. If it is not, then I cannot see how on earth or in heaven God will be happy. God chose her, and yet we deride, denounce and denigrate her.

Same as happened to Christ, and all the prophets. Read the Gospels, and you will see that Mary demonstrates every single one of the fruits of the spirit from the annunciation onwards, as well as the gift of prophecy. This is not often remarked, but it is there, clear as day if you take the blinkers of modern denominational tradition away and see what is there. She can truly be called the first Christian, and the most faithful during Christ's life, imo.

In the Bible Mary says, 'from henceforth all generations will call me blessed'. I would suggest that anyone who cannot say more than that, at least refrain from anything else at all. Not one of us will tolerate anyone disrespecting our mothers, and I suspect that this will go for Christ as well.

As for the 50% thing, that is simple. I am 100% the daughter of my father, not 50%. And I am also 100% the daughter of my mother, not 50%. DNA is something else, but in terms of relationship and who I am, the relationship is 100%. Same with Christ. Fully man, and fully God, because he is fully the son of Mary, and fully the son of God. Which does not end up with a 200% human, but with a full human being like any other.

In such human terms, even the most profound theology is simple to understand. Who we are is about relationship, not about DNA. And the same goes for Christ.

:wave:
 
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Catherineanne

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Is it too much to ask to simply believe, peacefully, in the beauty of the Blessed Mary as Mother of God in Jesus Christ? Her spiritual beauty and merciful smile has comforted so very many who had nowhere else to turn. There are many ways to reach Christ, this is one of the most gracious.

Jesus waits for us to come to Him.

:amen:
 
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OrthodoxyUSA

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Was this last directed to...? This is from me, not DD:

Latreia= "Again, from your own personal conviction you demand that so many others abandon all of theirs.

Yet, in the end, you cannot abide any kind of dissent or an alternate perspective of your posts.

Consider that."

I guess I just need a little support.


icon2.gif

It was to you.

Forgive me...
 
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Uphill Battle

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You might have been talking physical death. I was merely pointing out that the phrase 'dead Christian' is a contradiction in terms, because there is no such thing.

Ergo, whatever might have happened to Mary or any other Christian, none of them are dead, nor can be said to be dead now. They are in eternity, with God.

The point is often made that there is no point praying to dead people. This is quite right. But there are no dead Christians from God's point of view, and nor should there be from ours, if we share his view of the world, rather than sharing the world's view of the world.

And speaking of God's point of view, imho, any comment which is disrespectful of Our Lady is also disrespectful of God, who chose her from among all women to bear his son. This unique event in history was accepted with total submission to God's will by a young girl who in our day would probably still be in High School, and who bore God himself in her womb, brought him into the world, and fed him at her breast.

We seek God's grace every day of our lives. Gabriel greets Mary as 'full of grace'. I wish the posts on this thread could be called the same.

Even without tradition, Scripture alone ought to be enough to keep anyone silent who cannot speak respectfully of Mary. If it is not, then I cannot see how on earth or in heaven God will be happy. God chose her, and yet we deride, denounce and denigrate her.

Same as happened to Christ, and all the prophets.

In the Bible Mary says, 'from henceforth all generations will call me blessed'. I would suggest that anyone who cannot say more than that, at least refrain from anything else at all. Not one of us will tolerate anyone disrespecting our mothers, and I suspect that this will go for Christ as well.

:wave:
whom denied that Mary is the most Blessed woman of all time?

The real issue here, is that you (corporate you, not you individual) see any challange to the doctines regarding Mary as disrespect.

How far from the truth that really is!

flip the coin. assume for a minute that they are NOT true. assume for a moment that she WAS not a perpetual virgin.

Do you think it would be disrespectful to argue that she WAS? do you think it would be dishonouring to believe that she might have had other children?
 
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Latreia

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That's an even hand you seem to work with.

Hard to come by these days.

Forgive me...

Too bad I don't have a green thumb on that hand, I have zero luck with flowers or plants. :cry:

Since CF has not a "Heinz 57" denomination icon, I can't let everyone know that I fully delight in every religion and faith that looks for God in their lives.

I like to think God chuckles a bit over that.

icon2.gif



BTW, I forgot to caution you about Peter Pan PB. :sigh:
 
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Catherineanne

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You were not there. Is there no more truth in the world of our Lord God than only in scriptures? Not everything that ever was got written down. You wouldnt even have scriptures to read today, were it not for the Roman Catholic monasteries where the written word of the gospels, and much much more, were protected by monks who believed in the purity of the Blessed Virgin.

This is indeed true.

Those who deride Tradition, and claim to only follow the Bible, forget that the Bible is a product of tradition, and that you cannot have Scripture without the tradition which created it.

Nor can you have Christianity without tradition, like it or not. Anyone who worships the Lord on a Sunday, anyone who does not routinely include footwashing in their worship ceremonies, anyone who even regards the Bible as we have it today as canonical, is following traditions passed down from the fathers and mothers of our church.

There is no difference in this respect between Apostolic and fundamentalist churches. The only difference is that the Apostolic ones admit the traditions, while the fundamentalist ones try to pretend they are not there.

But in every single Christian church tradition plays a substantial, one might even say essential, role.
 
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Catherineanne

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flip the coin. assume for a minute that they are NOT true. assume for a moment that she WAS not a perpetual virgin.

That is not a doctrine I have ever personally commented on. The nearest I would come to it is to say that Mary is perpetually pure and chaste, and without sin because she carried the Christ child.

Where Christ enters, sin cannot exist at the same time, and from the moment of conception, Mary became sanctified and pure for all eternity. This is consistent with God's holiness.

I suspect she was without personal sin before that time because she was young, and had a loving and protective mother. The rest of the immaculate conception issue I do not understand enough to comment on, except to say that anyone who holds it has every right to do so, because it is impossible to venerate too much the mother of Our Lord, given that such veneration honours the son through the mother, just as any dishonour also dishonours him.

Ergo, I do not have that assumption underlying my posts. Anglicans do not hold the doctrine of perpetual virginity. They, as far as I am aware, hold beliefs of perpetual grace and sanctity for Our Lady.

Do you think it would be disrespectful to argue that she WAS? do you think it would be dishonouring to believe that she might have had other children?

I personally think it most likely that Mary and Joseph had other children after Jesus, and that James the brother of Jesus mentioned in Scripture was one of them. But I also think that Orthodox and RCC views on this matter are of equal validity to mine, and deserve equal respect and honour.

I do not think that marital relations with her husband would have dishonoured Mary in any way, any more than any other married woman is dishonoured by joining with her husband. I also think that first century Judaism did not have a tradition of celibacy within marriage, as later came into medieval Christian thinking, and that for her to have had a full marriage, as today, it would have naturally included marital relations. In Jewish tradition there is no defilement in marital relations, but on the contrary there is great honour in being the mother of a Jewish home.

That is the same as I would say for any married couple. Joseph was told by God to take Mary for his wife, and to a Jewish man I personally do not see that this entails taking Mary into his house and treating her as a daughter.

However, and this is a great big however, this does not in any way justify denigrating Our Lady, and speculating about her sinfulness or not, or making scurrilous comparisons. If any one of us wouldn't want to hear such nonsense about our own mothers, why should we think that Christ will be happy to hear it of his.
 
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IamAdopted

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This doctrine of Mary being sinless originated in the 5th century.. It was also rejected by the Fathers and Popes of the early church.. It was decreed a dogma of the faith necessary to be believed for salvation by Pius IX in 1854 in the papal decree Ineffailis Deus.
 
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Latreia

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This doctrine of Mary being sinless originated in the 5th century.. It was also rejected by the Fathers and Popes of the early church.. It was decreed a dogma of the faith necessary to be believed for salvation by Pius IX in 1854 in the papal decree Ineffailis Deus.


Is this all there is, anything left out, anything else to complete the entire history?

His-story, her-story, your-story?

Where is your source, where are the links, we require iron-clad evidence around here.

:sorry:
 
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IamAdopted

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Is this all there is, anything left out, anything else to complete the entire history?

His-story, her-story, your-story?

Where is your source, where are the links, we require iron-clad evidence around here.

:sorry:
Links? I do alot of reading.. :) To look this up you will need to read The Creeds of Christensom Vol 11 Page 212. You can probably look up the Bull Ineffablilis Dues on the internet and look under the Decree of Pope Pius LX on the Immaculate Conceptions of the blessed Virgin Mary.. I am not too sure though..
 
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Latreia

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Links? I do alot of reading.. :) To look this up you will need to read The Creeds of Christensom Vol 11 Page 212. You can probably look up the Bull Ineffablilis Dues on the internet and look under the Decree of Pope Pius LX on the Immaculate Conceptions of the blessed Virgin Mary.. I am not too sure though..

Excuse me, I am not responsible for running around looking for the evidence for your statements and contentions.

When you quote from authority, you are responsible for the links to them.

I think that is fair.

:amen:
 
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