Was Mary without sin?

[Iollain]

I have not seen your words here in the Holy Scriptures.

Could this be your own interpretation?

Are you infallible?

Such could infer that God has not the omniscience nor the omnipotence to command his own Children.

Sorry i don't understand what it is your asking. You don't believe Mary was human, then how is the prophecy fulfilled about a Saviour coming from David?

If you think it is the Law that saves, then why did people die and not rise up to Heaven before Jesus died and rose again?



2:21 And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved.

2:22 Ye men of Israel, hear these words; Jesus of Nazareth, a man approved of God among you by miracles and wonders and signs, which God did by him in the midst of you, as ye yourselves also know:

2:23 Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain:

2:24 Whom God hath raised up, having loosed the pains of death: because it was not possible that he should be holden of it.

2:25 For David speaketh concerning him, I foresaw the Lord always before my face, for he is on my right hand, that I should not be moved:

2:26 Therefore did my heart rejoice, and my tongue was glad; moreover also my flesh shall rest in hope:

2:27 Because thou wilt not leave my soul in hell, neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.

2:28 Thou hast made known to me the ways of life; thou shalt make me full of joy with thy countenance.

2:29 Men and brethren, let me freely speak unto you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his sepulchre is with us unto this day.

2:30 Therefore being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him, that of the fruit of his loins, according to the flesh, he would raise up Christ to sit on his throne;

2:31 He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption.

2:32 This Jesus hath God raised up, whereof we all are witnesses.

2:33 Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear.

2:34 For David is not ascended into the heavens: but he saith himself, The Lord said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand,

2:35 Until I make thy foes thy footstool.

2:36 Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made the same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ.





3:13 And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.







Rom 8:1 ¶ [There is] therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.


Rom 8:2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.


Rom 8:3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:


Rom 8:4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.








1Cr 15:12 ¶ Now if Christ be preached that he rose from the dead, how say some among you that there is no resurrection of the dead?


1Cr 15:13 But if there be no resurrection of the dead, then is Christ not risen:


1Cr 15:14 And if Christ be not risen, then [is] our preaching vain, and your faith [is] also vain.


1Cr 15:15 Yea, and we are found false witnesses of God; because we have testified of God that he raised up Christ: whom he raised not up, if so be that the dead rise not.


1Cr 15:16 For if the dead rise not, then is not Christ raised:


1Cr 15:17 And if Christ be not raised, your faith [is] vain; ye are yet in your sins.


1Cr 15:18 Then they also which are fallen asleep in Christ are perished.


1Cr 15:19 If in this life only we have hope in Christ, we are of all men most miserable.


1Cr 15:20 ¶ But now is Christ risen from the dead, [and] become the firstfruits of them that slept.


1Cr 15:21 For since by man [came] death, by man [came] also the resurrection of the dead.


1Cr 15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.


1Cr 15:23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.


1Cr 15:24 Then [cometh] the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.


1Cr 15:25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.


1Cr 15:26 The last enemy [that] shall be destroyed [is] death.


1Cr 15:27 For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith all things are put under [him, it is] manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him.


1Cr 15:28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.

 

[IamAdopted]

my point is that there are exceptions to the norm of life and death.

So are you saying then that Mary will be coming back so her body will die? There is only one. Just one that scripture talks about having No Sin..This is Jesus.. Not Mary. This was rejected by the early church fathers.. This was brought into play in the 5 centrury Then there was division over this... It also contradicts scripture of original sin. For Mary to be sinless she would have to be a diety. And we all know that she was not.. For Christ is. For there are not four in the Godhead but three..

 

[AngCath]

So are you saying then that Mary will be coming back so her body will die?

No. As has been said, her Assumption/Dormition includes her dying first. Not all who believe in this doctrine think she went into heaven without dying.

 

[Latreia]

Sorry i don't understand what it is your asking. You don't believe Mary was human, then how is the prophecy fulfilled about a Saviour coming from David?

If you think it is the Law that saves, then why did people die and not rise up to Heaven before Jesus died and rose again?


ACTS:
2:21 And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved.

2:22 Ye men of Israel, hear these words; Jesus of Nazareth, a man approved of God among you by miracles and wonders and signs, which God did by him in the midst of you, as ye yourselves also know:

2:23 Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain:

2:24 Whom God hath raised up, having loosed the pains of death: because it was not possible that he should be holden of it.

2:25 For David speaketh concerning him, I foresaw the Lord always before my face, for he is on my right hand, that I should not be moved:

2:26 Therefore did my heart rejoice, and my tongue was glad; moreover also my flesh shall rest in hope:

2:27 Because thou wilt not leave my soul in hell, neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.

2:28 Thou hast made known to me the ways of life; thou shalt make me full of joy with thy countenance.

2:29 Men and brethren, let me freely speak unto you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his sepulchre is with us unto this day.

2:30 Therefore being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him, that of the fruit of his loins, according to the flesh, he would raise up Christ to sit on his throne;

2:31 He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption.

2:32 This Jesus hath God raised up, whereof we all are witnesses.

2:33 Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear.

2:34 For David is not ascended into the heavens: but he saith himself, The Lord said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand,

2:35 Until I make thy foes thy footstool.

2:36 Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made the same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ.


JOHN
3:13 And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.


Rom 8:1 ¶ [There is] therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

Rom 8:2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.

Rom 8:3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:

Rom 8:4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

CORINTHIANS
1Cr 15:12 ¶ Now if Christ be preached that he rose from the dead, how say some among you that there is no resurrection of the dead?

1Cr 15:13 But if there be no resurrection of the dead, then is Christ not risen:

1Cr 15:14 And if Christ be not risen, then [is] our preaching vain, and your faith [is] also vain.

1Cr 15:15 Yea, and we are found false witnesses of God; because we have testified of God that he raised up Christ: whom he raised not up, if so be that the dead rise not.

1Cr 15:16 For if the dead rise not, then is not Christ raised:

1Cr 15:17 And if Christ be not raised, your faith [is] vain; ye are yet in your sins.

1Cr 15:18 Then they also which are fallen asleep in Christ are perished.

1Cr 15:19 If in this life only we have hope in Christ, we are of all men most miserable.

1Cr 15:20 ¶ But now is Christ risen from the dead, [and] become the firstfruits of them that slept.

1Cr 15:21 For since by man [came] death, by man [came] also the resurrection of the dead.

1Cr 15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.

1Cr 15:23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.

1Cr 15:24 Then [cometh] the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.

1Cr 15:25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.

1Cr 15:26 The last enemy [that] shall be destroyed [is] death.

1Cr 15:27 For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith all things are put under [him, it is] manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him.

1Cr 15:28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.

Yes, it is sad to see how poor communication is and how confusing I must seem to you.

But, please refrain from misquoting or revsing what I say to enforce your issues. I never posted anything at all like:

"You don't believe Mary was human, then how is the prophecy fulfilled about a Saviour coming from David?"

Nor:

"If you think it is the Law that saves, then why did people die and not rise up to Heaven before Jesus died and rose again?"

Thank you for all the scripture quotes. I hope you do not infer that I have neither read them, or if I have I do not believe them.

All I am saying is that I think as Christians, we should show far more charity and grace and tolerance to our fellow Christians, Catholic or Protestant.

And all this negativity about the Virgin Mary is without merit and without kindness or love. Those instructions are also in the New Testament, as you must know.

 

[Rhamiel]

what many people do not understand is that all the great things we say about Mary come from grace, not her own merit, also Elijah did not die , he was also assumed into heaven. All things are possible with God
Pax Christi

 

[Iollain]

Yes, it is sad to see how poor communication is and how confusing I must seem to you.

But, please refrain from misquoting or revsing what I say to enforce your issues. I never posted anything at all like:

"You don't believe Mary was human, then how is the prophecy fulfilled about a Saviour coming from David?"

Nor:

"If you think it is the Law that saves, then why did people die and not rise up to Heaven before Jesus died and rose again?"

Thank you for all the scripture quotes. I hope you do not infer that I have neither read them, or if I have I do not believe them.

All I am saying is that I think as Christians, we should show far more charity and grace and tolerance to our fellow Christians, Catholic or Protestant.

And all this negativity about the Virgin Mary is without merit and without kindness or love. Those instructions are also in the New Testament, as you must know.

Originally Posted by Latreia
I have not seen your words here in the Holy Scriptures.

Could this be your own interpretation?

Are you infallible?

Such could infer that God has not the omniscience nor the omnipotence to command his own Children.



Actually yes you were asking me for scripture, and not 10 minutes after you were saying that you "would not dream of throwing down such a uncharitable and unkind challenge to you." to another poster.

 

[Uphill Battle]

what many people do not understand is that all the great things we say about Mary come from grace, not her own merit, also Elijah did not die , he was also assumed into heaven. All things are possible with God
Pax Christi

Hi Rhamiel, good to see you again.

I wouldn't argue that it's believed that Mary caused any of the dogmas attributed to her.

There is just simply no biblical record that it is true.

We have a biblical RECORD that Elijah was caught up to heaven.

We do not have any such record of Mary.

 

[Rhamiel]

I am just pointing out it is not impossible for Mary to be assumed into Heaven.
The Catholic Church is not Sola scripture but rather sola ecclesiasti , God uses Tradition (the unwritten teachings of the Apostles handed down) and Scripture to guide His Church so that not even the gates of Hell will prevail against her.

 

[Uphill Battle]

I am just pointing out it is not impossible for Mary to be assumed into Heaven.
The Catholic Church is not Sola scripture but rather sola ecclesiasti , God uses Tradition (the unwritten teachings of the Apostles handed down) and Scripture to guide His Church so that not even the gates of Hell will prevail against her.

funny you should say that. Check out this thread.

http://www.christianforums.com/t4876986-jesus-didnt-institute-a-church.html

besides that, it's not "impossible" that Mary led a band of ragtag soliders to conquer mongolia. If we use the same "bible doesn't have to say it" argumentation, that is.

 

[elmdietz]

The messenger of God told us that Mary was full of grace. God prepared a way for His son, the One that conquered death, that obeyed the law. If Jesus could resurrect people on earth while in human form, before having assended into heaven, do you think he would leave His mother in a grave? He promised his disiples mansions in heaven, would he have done less for his mother? Revelations shows her in the heavens. We can argue all day about details, that doesn't change where she is now.
I believe that she was born without sin according to God's plan. Not that what I believe will change His plan.

 

[CrusaderKing]

This teaching did not even come into being until the 5th century. It originated with the heretics Pelagius and Celestius and was universally rejected by the Fathers and Popes of the early church.

Sources please. And just because it isn't said in Scripture doesn't mean it didn't happen. I can safely assume that Moses digested his food even though that isn't written. Being a human simply implies that one can digest food unless the person has a disorder.

This applies to what is said to the Blessed Virgin Mary by St. Gabriel in Luke 1:28. When Mary is said to be "full of grace," it is implied that she is without sin. Being full of grace is an impossibility for someone stained by sin. St. Thomas Aquinas elaborated on this better than I could.

The Blessed Virgin was superior to any of the Angels in the fullness of grace, and as an indication of this the Angel showed reverence to her by saying: "Full of grace." This is as if he said: "I show thee reverence because thou dost excel me in the fullness of grace."

The Blessed Virgin is said to be full of grace in three ways. First, as
regards her soul she was full of grace. The grace of God is given for two chief purposes, namely, to do good and to avoid evil. The Blessed Virgin, then, received grace in the most perfect degree, because she had avoided every sin more than any other Saint after Christ. Thus it is said: "Thou art fair, My beloved, and there is not a spot in thee." St. Augustine says: "If we could bring together all the Saints and ask them if they were entirely without sin, all of them, with the exception of the Blessed Virgin, would say with one voice: 'If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us.' I except, however, this holy Virgin of whom, because of the honor of God, I wish to omit all mention of sin." For we know that to her was granted grace to overcome every kind of sin by Him whom she merited to conceive and bring forth, and He certainly was wholly without sin.

Sure, you might just label this as the interpretation of one man and reject it. But what does "full of grace" imply? What an angel says should not be taken lightly and since angels are messengers of God, I'd say St. Gabriel's announcement to the Blessed Virgin Mary in Luke 1:28 should close the discussion. Of course, there are different translations of that passage.

 

[Uphill Battle]

Sources please. And just because it isn't said in Scripture doesn't mean it didn't happen. I can safely assume that Moses digested his food even though that isn't written. Being a human simply implies that one can digest food unless the person has a disorder.

Right... we don't need an explicit record to show that a human has human properties/traits.... therefore, using the bible, we see all have sinned. We all share the stain of original sin. This is a human trait, and by your argument, we need no biblical record to show that we HAVE these traits, it's there. We find no biblical record exempting Mary from this shared human trait.

This applies to what is said to the Blessed Virgin Mary by St. Gabriel in Luke 1:28. When Mary is said to be "full of grace," it is implied that she is without sin. Being full of grace is an impossibility for someone stained by sin. St. Thomas Aquinas elaborated on this better than I could.

please show how someone full of grace is sinless.

grace /greɪs/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[greys] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation noun, verb, graced, grac·ing.
–noun

2.a pleasing or attractive quality or endowment.
3.favor or good will.
4.a manifestation of favor, esp. by a superior: It was only through the dean's grace that I wasn't expelled from school.
5.mercy; clemency; pardon: an act of grace.
6.favor shown in granting a delay or temporary immunity.
8.Theology. a.the freely given, unmerited favor and love of God. b.the influence or spirit of God operating in humans to regenerate or strengthen them. c.a virtue or excellence of divine origin: the Christian graces. d.Also called state of grace. the condition of being in God's favor or one of the elect.

definition, even theologically of Grace is NOT sinlessness.

It is the unmerited favour of God.
for instance, it could be said that YOU and I are "full of Grace" for the highlighted passages above.
Christ resides within, his unmerited favour towards us, his boundless grace, and we are full of it!

Sure, you might just label this as the interpretation of one man and reject it. But what does "full of grace" imply? What an angel says should not be taken lightly and since angels are messengers of God, I'd say St. Gabriel's announcement to the Blessed Virgin Mary in Luke 1:28 should close the discussion. Of course, there are different translations of that passage.

and quite apparently, different translations of what GRACE really means.

 

[CrusaderKing]

Right... we don't need an explicit record to show that a human has human properties/traits.... therefore, using the bible, we see all have sinned. We all share the stain of original sin. This is a human trait, and by your argument, we need no biblical record to show that we HAVE these traits, it's there. We find no biblical record exempting Mary from this shared human trait.

Again, look to Luke 1:28.

please show how someone full of grace is sinless.

grace /greɪs/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[greys] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation noun, verb, graced, grac·ing.
–noun

2.a pleasing or attractive quality or endowment.
3.favor or good will.
4.a manifestation of favor, esp. by a superior: It was only through the dean's grace that I wasn't expelled from school.
5.mercy; clemency; pardon: an act of grace.
6.favor shown in granting a delay or temporary immunity.
8.Theology. a.the freely given, unmerited favor and love of God. b.the influence or spirit of God operating in humans to regenerate or strengthen them. c.a virtue or excellence of divine origin: the Christian graces. d.Also called state of grace. the condition of being in God's favor or one of the elect.

definition, even theologically of Grace is NOT sinlessness.

Of course it's not and you only gave me the definition of what grace is. I never once claimed to have any grace from God is to imply sinlessness. But since you mentioned original sin, I'll have to remind you that even though we had original sin washed away at baptism, we still have the inclination towards sin. This counterattacks the method at which grace works through us.

To say one is "full of grace" is for one to be completely filled with virtue and no inclination towards sin. Therefore, to be full of grace is to be without sin, but being in a state of grace is being without sin at that moment. There's a difference. I walk out of the confessional with my sins absolved and enter a state of grace once those sins are absolved, but I still sin later.

It is the unmerited favour of God.
for instance, it could be said that YOU and I are "full of Grace" for the highlighted passages above.
Christ resides within, his unmerited favour towards us, his boundless grace, and we are full of it!

 

[Uphill Battle]

Again, look to Luke 1:28.



Of course it's not and you only gave me the definition of what grace is. I never once claimed to have any grace from God is to imply sinlessness. But since you mentioned original sin, I'll have to remind you that even though we had original sin washed away at baptism, we still have the inclination towards sin. This counterattacks the method at which grace works through us.

To say one is "full of grace" is for one to be completely filled with virtue and no inclination towards sin. Therefore, to be full of grace is to be without sin, but being in a state of grace is being without sin at that moment. There's a difference. I walk out of the confessional with my sins absolved and enter a state of grace once those sins are absolved, but I still sin later.

luke 1:28 shows Mary has highly favoured of God.

This fits with the definition of Grace.

There is no reason to believe being full of Grace means sinlesness.

 

[IamAdopted]

Sources please. And just because it isn't said in Scripture doesn't mean it didn't happen. I can safely assume that Moses digested his food even though that isn't written. Being a human simply implies that one can digest food unless the person has a disorder.

This applies to what is said to the Blessed Virgin Mary by St. Gabriel in Luke 1:28. When Mary is said to be "full of grace," it is implied that she is without sin. Being full of grace is an impossibility for someone stained by sin. St. Thomas Aquinas elaborated on this better than I could.



Sure, you might just label this as the interpretation of one man and reject it. But what does "full of grace" imply? What an angel says should not be taken lightly and since angels are messengers of God, I'd say St. Gabriel's announcement to the Blessed Virgin Mary in Luke 1:28 should close the discussion. Of course, there are different translations of that passage.

this was taken from the Creeds of Christensdom 1877 Vol. 11,page 212 Discussing what Pope Pius 1X stated..
Also you can look at the Nicene and Post-Nicene Fathers Volume X1 Vincent of Lerins 24.62 pages 149-150

 

[OrthodoxyUSA]

If a vesel is full of "something", can anything else be in it?

Forgive me...

 

[IamAdopted]

If a vesel is full of "something", can anything else be in it?

Forgive me...

It sure can.. Look at what Paul said..

 

[OrthodoxyUSA]

It sure can.. Look at what Paul said..

Verse please.

Forgive me...

 

[Latreia]

Originally Posted by Latreia


"I have not seen your words here in the Holy Scriptures.

Could this be your own interpretation?

Are you infallible?

Such could infer that God has not the omniscience nor the omnipotence to command his own Children."


Actually yes you were asking me for scripture, and not 10 minutes after you were saying that you "would not dream of throwing down such a uncharitable and unkind challenge to you." to another poster.

Again, you incorrectly read meaning into my words that simply are not there.

What I meant was that I have not seen your interpretations posted here actually verbatim in the Holy Bible. I realize that you think that what you say here is exactly the same thing as in the verses of the Bible.

I was not challenging you to quote scriptures, I was asking you directly to consider whether you, as a person, might misinterpret the scriptures or if you could be infallible.

I was also asking whether your inclination to preach to others what they may and may not be allowed to follow in their faiths could be usurping faith in the infallible God of Creation by suggesting you must intercede because you feel God cannot be as effective as your posts.

Hopefully, this will make it clearer to you.

Let us pray about this. Fervently.

 

[Latreia]

Verse please.

Forgive me...

Please, a little insight into why you conclude each post with "Forgive me..."

It touches me because you seem to wish to gentle your words or to give your Lord God a bow, signalling your ever present devotion to Him.

If you have explained this before, I regret to say I have missed it.

Thank you for you patience, I mean that.