The Decree of Pope Pius IX. on the Immaculate…
[This document, though issued by the sole authority of Pope Pius IX., Dec. 8,1864, must be regarded now as infallible and irreformable, even without the formal sanction of the Vatican Council. It is purely negative, but indirectly it teaches and enjoins the very opposite of what it condemns as error. See Vol. I. § 20, pp. 128–134.] Here is a link for you to view.. Took me some time but I did find the link..
http://www.ccel.org/ccel/schaff/creeds2.v.i.iv.html
Was the post quoted above, inregards to our conversation? If so, I am not following you...what does it have to do with the post, below...and my responses.
This doctrine of Mary being sinless originated in the 5th century.. It was also rejected by the Fathers and Popes of the early church.. It was decreed a dogma of the faith necessary to be believed for salvation by Pius IX in 1854 in the papal decree Ineffailis Deus.
You stated that the concept of Mary being sinless originated in the 5th century, and that it was rejected by the Fathers and Popes of the Early Church. I noticed the way you worded your post, by say "rejected by the Fathers and Popes of the early church", that you were implying that most, if not all of the Early Church Fathers and Popes reject the ideal that Mary was sinless. Cuz, you didn't say "some" or "a few of Early Church Fathers, and Popes". That is why I asked you the following, in the quote below.
What Early Church Fathers and Popes of the early Church, rejected that Mary was without sin?
I ask this, because I want to know what is the sources on which you have drawn your conclusions. I figured you either have read several writings of Early Church Fathers and Popes, that wrote against Mary being sinless, or you read someone elses opinion on the subject. Judging by your response, it appears to be the latter....but still, Walter Burghart and Juniper Carol, should have footnotes for the source of their quotes, that they presented in their arguements.
The Roman Catholic patristic scholar Walter Burghart Writes of this. Augustine, Pope Leo I Pope Gregory the Great, Anselm, Bede, Bernard of Clairveaux and Tomas Aquinas. For centuries it was a matter of violent dispute within the Church between the Dominicans and the Franciscans.
No sources provided in this quote, although I did look up Augustine...which I later posted.
Does he list in his writings the sources from which he draws his conclusion. Mainly what I am looking for is the sources from the Early Church Father's writings....he should have listed them in footnotes...thanks
Below, I posted from one of the ECFs, that was listed in Walter Burghart's comments...and it shows that Augustine did indeed, believe in Mary being sinless. In fact, he makes a point...to draw attention, so he won't be misunderstood...that he believes Mary was sinless.
"We must except the holy Virgin Mary, concerning whom I wish to raise no question when it touches the subject of sins, out of honor to the Lord; for from Him we know what abundance of grace for overcoming sin in every particular was conferred upon ber who had the merit to concieve and bear Him who undoubtedly had no sin. Well, then, if, with this exception of the Virgin, we could only assemble together all the forementioned holy men and women, and ask them whether they lived without sin while they were in this life, what can we suppose would be their answer? Would it be in the language of our author(Pelagius) or in the words of the Apostle John? I put it to you, whether, on having such a question submitted to them, however excellent might have been their sanctity in this body, they would not have exclaimed with one voice: 'If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us' ?(1 John 1:8)
I went and dug out one of my quotes from Early Church Father's book...and dusted it off, and type out the quote above from Augustine....it does look like he wrote in support of Mary being without sin.
There is a negative,unfavorable trend rooted in Augustine's anti Pelagianism: It accentuates the universaltiy of orignal sin and articulates the connections between inherited sin and any conception consequent upon sinful concupiscence. Th root Idea is summed up by Leo the Great. "Alone therefore among the sons of men The Lord Jesus was born innocent because alone conceived without pollution of carnal concupiscence." The same concept is discoerable in St. Fulgentius, Bishop of Ruspe in Africa (d.533) The most significant theologian of his time. In Pope Gregory the Great. (d.604) at the end of the sixth century and a century later in Venerable Bede, (Juniper Carol.Ed. Mariology Milwaukee Bruce ,1955 Volume 1 Page 146.
Okay, but this is still more of the same...quotes from another source than the original writings. Can you list in Juniper Carol's footnotes...the sources of her quotes..meaning the title of the writings that they are drawn from....that way, if I can find them on the web, the quotes can be viewed in full context.
Peace be with you....Pam
So can you please provide, the sources for the ECFs and Popes that rejected...Mary being sinless? Thanks.
Peace be with you...Pam
