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Featured Was it fair to put Adam and Eve to the test?

Discussion in 'Controversial Christian Theology' started by derpytia, May 9, 2018.

  1. PaulCyp1

    PaulCyp1 Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Fair? No, it wasn't "fair" because "fair" means giving someone what they deserve. Adam and Eve didn't deserve the freedom to choose eternal happiness. It was a freely given gift, far beyond anything they could have deserved. Without that choice being given them, they would simply have been smart animals.
     
  2. Ron Gurley

    Ron Gurley What U See is What U Get!

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    OP: Was it fair for Adam and Eve to be put to the test?

    A: False premise. God has never spiritually tested anyone although to Man's limited wisdom it APPEARS that He did.

    God gave the spiritual gift of "free will" to all Mankind beginning with A&E. God offers. Man has the CHOICE to accept or reject...obey or disobey...trust or deny.
     
  3. Apologetic_Warrior

    Apologetic_Warrior Pilgrim

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    Years ago when debating with Atheists, one non-believer put the same objection in these terms. Placing Adam and Eve in the garden with the serpent, was like placing your children in a room and placing a loaded gun on a table, and telling the children not to touch the gun and trusting the children not to touch it. What kind of parent would do that? I cannot remember how or if I responded, but it gave me pause and stuck with me as a kind of illustration or comparison. I think it is helpful to consider the Creator/creation distinction here and Scriptures such as:

    Job 7:17 “What is man, that You should exalt him, That You should set Your heart on him,

    Job 9:12 If He takes away, who can hinder Him? Who can say to Him, ‘What are You doing?’

    Romans 9:19 You will say to me then, “Why does He still find fault? For who has resisted His will?” 20 But indeed, O man, who are you to reply against God? Will the thing formed say to him who formed it, “Why have you made me like this?” 21 Does not the potter have power over the clay, from the same lump to make one vessel for honor and another for dishonor?

    We have the tendency to view fairness, justice, and justification through a creaturely human perspective, but God is not a man, and God had a plan and purpose for allowing man to fall from the goodness He created, His Covenant of Redemption from all eternity. So God had a greater good planned out from the start, a Holy plan that the serpent of old, could never thwart or overthrow or overcome.

    Why did they not die? They did die in the most important and fundamental way, they died spiritually. Though their flesh remained, inside of their innermost being they died to God, their good desires to please God, died.
     
    Last edited: May 10, 2018
  4. Apologetic_Warrior

    Apologetic_Warrior Pilgrim

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    Yes He did, and we see where that led, what mankind chose to do, and because of those choices, the bondage of the will to the same form of slavery to sin. Praise God for freeing us from that bondage in Christ we are free again! However by the grace and mercy of God, the Spirit leading, we should submit to the Lordship of Jesus Christ, we should be servants of the most High, slaves to Christ.

    :wave: free will, bye bye
     
  5. Hawkins

    Hawkins Member Supporter

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    It's never a simple story. It's many-fold.

    First, it is an explanation on why God has to build planet earth. Why not God just create humans and put them directly to Heaven? By the nature of free will, not all of us can go to Heaven to live with God forever. At some point, if it's not Adam, someone will have to be disqualified from entering Heaven, not all of us can eventually go to Heaven.

    God showed through Adam that humans may choose to sin (disobey His commands), especially under the influence of the more intelligent angels (it's Satan in this case).

    Second, God's intention was to keep Adam and Eve as innocent as possible, as it's the best way for them to live with the sin-incompatible God. God won't teach them what raping is, what murdering is for the sake of their own safety. That's the point of not knowing good and evil.

    Third, it shows prophetically that it is a human weakness in terms of making a judgment based on human knowledge (i.e., eating the fruits from the Tree of Knowledge to think that his eyes are opened to make judgments on good and evil as God does). Satan on the other hand makes use of this weakness all the times especially now in our modern world. All atheism can rely on is the "science" for them to attack God and Christianity.

    Fourth, our knowledge however can never bring us to the truth of what could possibly happen in the future. God hid the Tree of Life such that no humans can see through if life will continue after our physical death. The day humans make use of their knowledge to say that "no scientific evidence shows that life will continue after our physical death", the same day they shall surely die. It's more like a prophecy of the ending of humanity.

    There are actually more to be dug up, however it may go off-topic soon.
     
    Last edited: May 10, 2018
  6. EternallyKeptByJesus

    EternallyKeptByJesus Member

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    God does reveal himself to us, he did so in Jesus.

    Prior to the cross God did show up and spoke with man. Moses asked to see God's glory. In the old testament you can read where God did not show up in His glorified state, like angels. There are times that they show up appearing as humans. God was saying you can't see my full glory and live. Not that you will die if I show up in your presence.

    As to Adam and Eve and was it a fair test. First I don't know where it says that the tree of good and evil was a test, God did not say I am going to test you, God just said don't eat of it. Adam and Eve had no problem with that command until Satan shows up.

    Now, I heard this from some preacher that I can't remember who or the scriptures he used. I like this concept and at the time I listened to it, scriptural it all made sense. But like I said I can't remember the details so believe or don't. Accept it or chuck it out the window.

    So here it goes. Satan when he was Lucifer was the chief angel that was suppose to serve Adam and Eve. He was to go to God's presence and bring things to Adam and Eve. What exactly, I don't remember, if the preacher said. Furthermore, Lucifer was in charge of doing things in the garden prior to the creation of Adam and Eve. When Adam and Eve was created Lucifer became angry because he thought this Earth was created for him to be in charge of. And it was a shock when God created man, because Lucifer thought this was his world.

    Because God is about free will and does not take back what he has given, Lucifer had a right to be in the garden because it was part of his duties.

    Lucifer concocted an idea to get man to sin so that he could get back what he thought should have been his to begin with. So it was not a test that Adam and Eve failed, but it was first a betrayal by Lucifer to steal the Earth that was never to be his to begin with. Then there was a second betrayal by Adam, because of what Adam did, handed the earth over to the devil. Adam handed the right and the authority to exersize rule on the Earth to the devil.

    So it was not that God allowed an evil devil to be in the garden. What parent would create a garden for a child and put a rattle snake in it? So at first the devil had not fallen yet. It was when the devil acted on his evil plan that the devil fell. So the devil came to Adam and Evil at first as Lucifer. Lucifer became Satan and was changed when God cursed him for his evil.

    The only problem with this idea is the gap theory. Search google if you don't know what that is.

    But I don't see this as a test but a betrayal that was done against God. Why did God allow it, it all has to do with free will and how God says when he gives you something He does not take it back. So I think the answer is complicated. And for me still a work in process.

    But what ever the answer is, God does not test us to sin, and God is perfect in all his ways. So what ever the answer is, it is fair.
     
  7. HypnoToad

    HypnoToad *croak* Supporter

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    I would say no, that isn't a fair assumption. The human mind is quite capable of imagining scenarios that the person hasn't experienced themselves. And that's the post-fall, corrupted mind. Adam & Eve had minds that were not yet corrupted by sin. To assume that they couldn't understand what disobedience was is not a fair assumption. You could argue that they perhaps didn't fully grasp the extent of the consequences that they would incur, but that's quite different from grasping that disobedience was wrong.

    I see no reason to assume that it was impossible for them to eventually disobey all on their own.

    No, it's not a bit like that. There's no reason to assume Adam & Eve had the intellectual capabilities of a toddler. That's not a fair comparison.

    While the text says God was there, it never says He was there in His natural, full-glory state.
     
  8. bling

    bling Regular Member Supporter

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    There is always an excellent reason why God does stuff.

    We learn a lot from the Garden story about sin, God, human nature, what we consider blessings, where God would Love for us to all be, man’s objective and what we might consider to be the ideal situation.

    We can all truly thank Adam and Eve for going through the Garden situation and showing us and themselves: why the garden situation is a lousy (impossible) place for humans to fulfill their earthly objective.

    Answer me this: Would you prefer to be in a place where your eternal close relationship with God was dependent on your personal ability to obey God (the Garden) or in a place where your eternal close relationship with God is dependent on your just accepting His Charity (where you are now)?

    Adam and Eve did not know good and evil before sinning but would know right and wrong.

    The “test” Adam & Eve were given was a learning experience for both of them and not a test for God to find out something.

    Sin has purpose in helping humans fulfill their earthly objective.

    Spiritual death did occur immediately and they started to physically die immediately also.
     
  9. GUANO

    GUANO Well-Known Member

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    People don't like to do this, but I prefer to look at this story from the mythological and prophetic standpoint.

    First, if Adam and Eve are the first 2 humans then "Evil" could not have existed yet and therefore it's correct to assume that neither of these humans had a concept of evil...

    The "Tree" and the "Act of eating" seem to be the same thing, it's paradoxical, one cannot "obtain the 'knowledge' of good and evil" without experiencing it, the 'knowledge' of good and evil is shame, guilt and others...

    In the myth, the "sin" itself is simply the act of disobedience, to learn the knowledge of good and evil one must commit evil... According to Jesus Christ himself, NOTHING CAN ENTER THE BODY AND DEFILE IT, there is no magic fruit. So, they disobey the 'rule' and learn the difference between good and evil, or innocence and guilt. Guilt and shame are the spirits that separate one's 'soul' from the Godhead---thus they 'hid themselves' and 'saw that they were naked'....

    Anyways, "food for thought"??
     
  10. AbcdeG

    AbcdeG New Member Supporter

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    Scripture please that they "died spiritually".
     
  11. salt-n-light

    salt-n-light Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Well was is the concept behind evil? That it is against good. That means anything against God, who is good, is evil. As long as there is free will, there will always be a test of some sort. Whether to choose God, or to choose the other. They may not understand the ramifications and thus the complexities of evil, but they understood enough that there is a good choice and a bad choice. There are choices that God favors and not favor. There was a command established, and it was either to follow it, or rebel against it.

    Mind you, the Bible didn't say that they were babes in thinking. Adam was able to name animals, to cultivate food, etc. Eve was able to make reason of her decision (food please the eyes and desire to be wise) For God to give them a command, they must have had the ability to reason. That means they had an awareness of what was good and bad to do. They knew after their eyes were open, to hide. That means they are also aware of what punishment is.
     
  12. Danielwright2311

    Danielwright2311 Well-Known Member Supporter

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    God know all things, he even knew we would fall into sin, There is nothing he does not know,

    He planed all of it knowing his creation would sin he planed Jesus to die for our sins, he even created this plan before we where created.
     
  13. SolomonVII

    SolomonVII Well-Known Member

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    The world was a dangerous place even before sin entered the world. The serpent simply did not have the best interests of Adam and Eve at heart, and he operated according to his own agenda even before the Fall.

    If this was fair to Adam and Eve, then it would not be a true depiction of the world as it is, a world where what is unknown is always greater than what is known, a world where making the wrong choice inevitably has harsh consequences, a world where danger must be discerned by us in spite of all the unknowns and trickery, lest we die.
    Fair or not, this is how the world was created, and this is the world that we must deal with now. We are ignorant of many essential elements, and that is the environment that we make our choices, just as was the case for Adam and Eve all those years ago.

    So given this reality, a reality that existed before the Fall, is God someone we can believe in? Is God as goodness, and justice and wisdom and compassion and perfection someone we can believe in, given the nature of a world where man is forever tested by malevolent forces, even before sin entered our hearts, even before the Fall?
    Precisely because the world is as it is, therefore God must be believed in. To make goodness, and justice and wisdom our goal is to believe in God.

    Without God, the world remains unfair and there is no hope outside of him.

    If the world is unfair, then God is our hope. If God is unfair, there is no hope. Those are the options.
    Hope is the better choice.
     
  14. HypnoToad

    HypnoToad *croak* Supporter

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    That's what sin does.

    Ephesians 2:5 - "even though we were dead in offenses, made us alive together with Christ". It wouldn't make any sense to be speaking of physical death in that passage.
     
  15. Strong in Him

    Strong in Him I can do all things through Christ Supporter

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    I'm not sure it was a test exactly.
    God told them they could eat fruit from any tree except one. They had lots to choose from.

    They died spiritually.
    When God said to Adam "on the day you eat this you will die", he was correct. Spiritual death = separation from God. When Adam and Eve disobeyed, the relationship between them and God was broken and sin came into the world.
     
  16. Sal Robinson

    Sal Robinson Member Supporter

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    to answer your last point, the proccess of the world being separated from God had just begun. darkness had just started to enter the earth. So the presence of God didn't kill them because the process of darkness enering the world had only started.


    but as the world descended further into darkness, the death of abel by his murderous brother. the evil thatcaused the flood, and furthermore, the world descended further and further into darkness, making God's presence too overwhelming for man, so much so that man would die.


    So that why they didn't die intially.
    darkness had only started to enter the world, so the presence of God was that overwhelming for them as of yet.



    and to answer your first point, they knew better, disobedience means you knew better...so they were not todlers, they knew what they were doing

    God Bless Friend :)
     
  17. Colter

    Colter Member

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    The many questions that arise from the Genesis narrative indicate that there is a much bigger story. The story of Adam and Eve was written long after the incarnate pair arrived on a populated, previously fallen earth. They were the 2nd fall.
     
  18. pescador

    pescador Newbie Supporter

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    Populated and previously fallen?
     
  19. Colter

    Colter Member

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    Yes, the “crafty beast” or devil had already fallen, already evil. Cain feared people out away from his tribe, God even agreed, put a mark on him.
     
  20. Deadietrickwood

    Deadietrickwood New Member

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    Great questions!
    To reply to the beginning of your question "was it fair," God is more than fair. "He does not treat us as our sins deserve or repay us according to our iniquities" (Psalm 103:10).

    Also, He is the one who reigns over the earth "The Mighty One, God the Lord, speaks and summons the earth from the rising of the sun to its setting" (Psalm 50:1)

    Perhaps a question that could be asked is "why?" did He put them to the test. I believe that God, because of His infinite love, gives man a free will to choose, yet He also commands obedience.

    For me, on a personal note, not that I'm proud to say I've sinned through my disobedience, but without failing when tempted I doubt I've would have experienced His forgiveness.

    Not to be critical, but I don't believe it's a matter of fairness that God put the tree of knowledge of good and evil in the middle of the garden and allowed the serpent to tempt Eve.

    You're correct in saying "Adam and Eve didn't yet know what evil was," but God had given them freedom to choose to be obedient or disobedient, just the same as you and I have. And to respond to your question "If Adam and Eve didn't yet know what evil was, would they have even considered disobeying God on their own had the serpent not come to them?" It could be that although Adam and Eve were not born in sin as we are, it is apparent they lusted in their hearts because James 1:12-15 says "When tempted, no one should say, “God is tempting me.” For God cannot be tempted by evil, nor does he tempt anyone; but each person is tempted when they are dragged away by their own lust. Then, after desire has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and sin, when it is full-grown, gives birth to death.

    To respond to your last question "why did they not die then when God came looking for them? God hides Himself from us and never reveals Himself entirely (He showed only the back of Himself to Moses) because if He did we would surely die due to our sinful nature. After that test, Adam and Eve were sinful in the eyes of the Lord. Why."

    The text does not read they saw the Lord, it reads they heard the Lord. Nor does it say Adam ever saw God because "the Lord God caused the man to fall into a deep sleep; and while he was sleeping, he took one of the man’s ribs and then closed up the place with flesh."

    I hope this perspective might shine a different light.


    Was it fair for Adam and Eve to be put to the test?

    Before consuming fruit from the tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil, isn't it fair to say that Adam and Eve didn't have a concept of what Evil was? Was it fair of God to allow the serpent to come to Eve and put ideas into her head that would have otherwise never been there?

    If Adam and Eve didn't yet know what evil was, would they have even considered disobeying God on their own had the serpent not come to them? Isn't that a bit like putting a toddler in charge of a nation and saying "Okay you know nothing of ruling or the complexities of right vs wrong or good decisions vs. bad decisions but you have to be in charge and make all the decisions around here now."?

    Another question that comes to mind is why did they not die then when God came looking for them? God hides Himself from us and never reveals Himself entirely (He showed only the back of Himself to Moses) because if He did we would surely die due to our sinful nature. After that test, Adam and Eve were sinful in the eyes of the Lord. Why did they not die?[/QUOTE]
     
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