Was God's Kingdom already established in 70 AD ? - Preterism views

[yeshuasavedme]

Well -actually, no, we aren't saying the same thing.
I haven't received the regenerated body nor have you.
No one receives the regenerated body until the first 'harvest", which is the first resurrection, which is guaranteed to come by the Firstfruits that have already been gathered and received in the heavenly temple, above, which were offered there on the First of firstfruits which was the first, first day of the week after Passover, in the Feasts of the LORD; which Feasts are types and shadows of the heavenly truths.

When Jesus Christ rose from the dead in His body of "New Creation Man" flesh, on the eve of First of Firstfruits, He raised many bodies of the dead Saints, along with His own, whose bodies slept in the dust; and they rose from the dead in their own regenerated bodies and came out of their graves, on that First of Firstfruits, and were seen of many and walked about the city.
When He ascended to the Father, mid-morning on that certain 'First of Firstfruits', "He led captivity captive", taking with Him those whose bodies He had raised from the dust of this earth, regenerated, to offer as that offering in the heavenly temple as those First of firstfruits offering, along with Himself; and that Firstfruits harvest gaurantees the full harvest to come at the first resurrection, which is typed by Pentecost.

Only those who are born from above by the Spirit of adoption will be regenerated in body at that first resurrection, and those who are regenerated in body will never, ever die, in spirit or in body again, and will have no part in the second resurrection or the second death.

The final harvest is typed by Tabernacles, and that harvest comes after the thousand year reign and is the second resurrection.

That's why Pentecost has no celebration mentioned in Ezekiel in the millennium and is why Tabernacles is celebrated in the millennium, for Tabernacles will not be fullfilled until the final harvest of earth's souls -some to everlasting life and some to everlasting death -in the lake of fire.

And that is why we who are born again from above do not dwell on this earth after we are regenerated in body, but serve in the heavenlies for the thousand years, before we return to this earth after it is regenerated in the end.

Absolutely nothing the LORD has plannnd to do and will do is outside the teaching that is given in the oracles. The Feasts of God are His times and seasons, and He will restore them when Israel is restored -until all are fullfilled.
The Atonement is done, but the harvest is not gathered in -yet; only the "First of Firstfruits" has been gathered, Jesus being the Firstfruits, Himself, from the dead, who raises the many sons that He came to bring to glory -to gather in the harvest, as sons, from this earth, and bring back to the Father.

On that eve of first of firstfruits after Passover:
Matthew 27;52,53; And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose,
And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.

Exd 34:26 The first of the firstfruits of thy land thou shalt bring unto the house of the LORD thy God.


Leviticus 23:5; In the fourteenth [day] of the first month at even [is] the LORD'S passover
10; Speak unto the children of Israel, and say unto them, When ye be come into the land which I give unto you, and shall reap the harvest thereof, then ye shall bring a sheaf of the firstfruits of your harvest unto the priest:
11; And he shall wave the sheaf before the LORD, to be accepted for you: on the morrow after the sabbath the priest shall wave it.

Jhn 20:17 Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and [to] my God, and your God.

Psa 68:18 Thou hast ascended on high, thou hast led captivity captive: thou hast received gifts for men; yea, [for] the rebellious also, that the LORD God might dwell [among them].

Eph 4:8 Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men.

Job 19:25,26,28;
For I know [that] my redeemer liveth, and [that] he shall stand at the "last" [day] upon the earth:

And [though] after my skin [worms] destroy this [body], yet in my flesh shall I see God:
Whom I shall see for myself, and mine eyes shall behold, and not another; [though] my reins be consumed within me.

Isa 26:19 Thy dead [men] shall live, [together with] my dead body shall they arise. Awake and sing, ye that dwell in dust: for thy dew [is as] the dew of herbs, and the earth shall cast out the dead.

There is much said, already, in the Scriptures about those who teach that the resurrection is past, aready, and it is most definitely false doctrine, and those who fall into that error are said to have had their faith overthrown, for the resurrection is about the body coming from the dust of this present creation, for us to dwell in, forver, in its regenerated form.

http://www.biblicalstudies.com/bstudy/eschatology/preter.htm
"Preterist denials of the bodily resurrection are as old as the Corinthian error, but they are no more valid today than then. To affirm that we are living in the resurrection today is, again, to take a mere part for the whole. In the resurrection there is no marriage (Luk.20:35). Family relationships as we know them will be then past a detail difficult indeed to reconcile with preterism's idea of present resurrection. To render Paul's hope of the resurrection purely spiritual renders his words and much of his persecutions (e.g., Acts 4:1-2; 23:6) meaningless. Worse, it makes him a liar (1Cor.15:15).

"But shun profane and vain babblings, for they will increase to more ungodliness. And their message will spread like a cancer. Hymenaeus and Philetus are of this sort, who have strayed concerning the truth, saying that the resurrection is already past; and they overthrow the faith of some" (2Tim.2:16-18). In Paul's opinion, this preterist doctrine is a particularly dangerous one."
...
One more. In Mat.24:21 Jesus cites Dan.12:1, and Dan.12:2 explicitly establishes the time frame as that of physical resurrection "from the dust of the earth." To say this refers to this day of spiritual resurrection just will not do."

 

[Hidden Manna]

Well -actually, no, we aren't saying the same thing.
I haven't received the regenerated body nor have you.

Okay so we are not saying the same thing then. I agree with that you are trying to say but not the nature of which the body is. You say it is the regenerated body of human flesh which I strongly disagree with you on.

I believe it is a spiritual body which we have already.

What Paul Calls Death.

In Genesis 2:15-17 God told man concerning the fruit of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil “in the day you eat thereof you will surely die.” Man and woman ate of the fruit. Did they die that day? Amazingly, most people will say “No!” because Adam and Eve did not die physically after they ate the forbidden fruit. But this is not the whole story.

Death means separation from God. And Adam and Eve were cast out of the Garden the day they ate the fruit. Thus, Adam and Eve died spiritually because they were cast out of the presence of God. If Adam and Eve did not die the day they ate then Satan told the truth and God lied! God said you will die in the day you eat, Satan said you will not surely die, Who told the truth to Adam and Eve? Unless one can find Adam and Eve physically dead in Genesis 2-3, then the death they died was spiritual and not physical.

The New Testament writers likened life under the Old Covenant to death, because all those under the Law were under the curse, Gal. 3:10f. Paul called the Old Testament the “ministration of death” because all it did was condemn; it could not justify, Romans 8:1-3.

In Romans 5:20 Paul said the law was added “that sin might abound.” This does not mean that God gave the Old Law to make men sin more — man had no problem doing that. But God gave the Old Law to make sin appear exceedingly sinful, to make man acutely aware of his sinfulness.

In chapter 7 of the same book Paul said:
“I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died. And the commandment, which was ordained to life, I found to be unto death. For sin taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it slew me” vs. 9-11.

What death is Paul describing here? Is it biological death of his physical body? Parently not. Yet he said he had died. What law was Paul describing so graphically in terms of sin and death? What law gave sin such a hold on Paul? It was the law that said “thou shalt not covet” vs. 7 — the Old Covenant of Israel.

This is the law that Paul labored under and that created the “body of this death” Rom. 7:24 and from which Paul longed for full deliverance, cf. Phil. 3:1-15.

In direct contrast to the “law of the Spirit of life in Christ,” the Old Law could not deliver from the “law of sin and death,” Rom. 8:1-3. As just seen in chapters 5-7 of Romans the Law actually exacerbated the cognizance of the “law of sin and death.” As Paul expressed in Galatians 3:10 “For as many as are of the works of the Law are under the curse; for it is written, Cursed is everyone who does not continue in all things which are written in the book of the Law to do them.” Thus, the Old Law is seen to be the strength of sin.

Now if the Old Law was a ministration of death what would deliverance from that death be? Would it be life from the dead? Would it be resurrection?


Romans 6 identifies the kind of death and resurrection experienced by Jesus that is to be emulated by believers. Now notice verse 8-10:

“Now if we died with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with Him, knowing that Christ, having been raised from the dead, dies no more. Death no longer has dominion over Him. For the death that He died, He died to sin once for all: but the life that He lives He lives unto God.”

Please note that Paul speaks of the Christian’s past death in verse 8. What kind of death had they already experienced? It cannot be physical. But there was a future life consistent with the nature of that death. If the past death was spiritual the future life was spiritual! And this future life was to emulate Jesus’ resurrection. But what is the apostle’s focus when he speaks of Jesus’ death and life? Notice carefully: “The death that he died he died to sin once for all; but the life that he lives he lives unto God.”

The Gospel is God’s power to save, Rom. 1:16. The problem is “the law of sin and death” Rom. 8:1-3. The Old Law could never deliver man from that Law. But the Gospel does! It is not the resurrection that delivers one from the Gospel; but the Gospel that delivers from the Law of Sin and Death. Since then the Gospel cannot be the strength of sin, what law was?

In Romans 6:1-11 the apostle demonstrates how in baptism the Romans had died with Christ, vs. 3, and had been raised with him, vs. 4. This patently cannot refer to a physical death and resurrection. But notice verse 5: “If we have been planted with him in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection.”
Is the likeness of his death a physical likeness? If so, they had died physically. But if it be admitted that this refers to a spiritual likeness how does this impact verse 5? Are we to see that in baptism there is a spiritual likeness to the death of Jesus but in resurrection there will be a physical imitation of his resurrection?

Who changed the hermeneutic here? Modern interpreters, not Paul, change the nature of the discussion.

How is it possible to so radically change Paul’s discussion from a spiritual death to a physical life? For Paul, the futuristic element was of the same nature in “likeness.” In verse 8 the apostle says “if we died with Christ, we believe we shall also live with him.”

The coming life was of the same nature as the death; but the death was not physical, therefore the coming life was not physical.

This passage very plainly reveals that, for Paul, the resurrection was a then present, yet not yet perfected, reality. Philippians 3:1-16

Deliverance from the Old Law, the Ministration of Death, would come therefore when it was fulfilled by full deliverance to the New Covenant Law of Life in Christ Jesus. If the New Covenant of Christ has been fully delivered and the Old Law has been fully taken away, then the strength of sin has been destroyed and resurrection life is a reality in Christ. To put it another way, since the Old Law was the Ministration of Death and the New Law of Christ is the Law of Life, resurrection became a reality with the full establishment of Christ’s New Covenant.

Those who already have eternal life in Christ Jesus have no need of resurrection. According to Jesus those who believe in him already have “life” — everlasting” And whoever lives and believes in Me shall never die. Do you believe this?” (John 11:26) Those who never die have no need of resurrection unto life because they don’t die.

Now with all that said, than does not mean we will not have a body made for heaven. I just would like to make that point very, very clear.
And like I say it is a spiritual body that we have right now, it just carries on living after the physical body dies.

 

[yeshuasavedme]

There is much said, already, in the Scriptures about those who teach that the resurrection is past, aready, and it is most definitely false doctrine, and those who fall into that error are said to have had their faith overthrown, for the resurrection is about the body coming from the dust of this present creation, for us to dwell in, forver, in its regenerated form.

http://www.biblicalstudies.com/bstudy/eschatology/preter.htm
"Preterist denials of the bodily resurrection are as old as the Corinthian error, but they are no more valid today than then. To affirm that we are living in the resurrection today is, again, to take a mere part for the whole. In the resurrection there is no marriage (Luk.20:35). Family relationships as we know them will be then past a detail difficult indeed to reconcile with preterism's idea of present resurrection. To render Paul's hope of the resurrection purely spiritual renders his words and much of his persecutions (e.g., Acts 4:1-2; 23:6) meaningless. Worse, it makes him a liar (1Cor.15:15).

"But shun profane and vain babblings, for they will increase to more ungodliness. And their message will spread like a cancer. Hymenaeus and Philetus are of this sort, who have strayed concerning the truth, saying that the resurrection is already past; and they overthrow the faith of some" (2Tim.2:16-18). In Paul's opinion, this preterist doctrine is a particularly dangerous one."
...
One more. In Mat.24:21 Jesus cites Dan.12:1, and Dan.12:2 explicitly establishes the time frame as that of physical resurrection "from the dust of the earth." To say this refers to this day of spiritual resurrection just will not do."

I did a google search for preterism, and find much to be concerned about this modern denial of the return of the LORD as He has promised, to reign on this earth as Firstborn, in Person, as King of Kings, and High Priest, as the 'Last Adam', for the last Day of a thousand years Sabbath rest for this present creation.


http://72.14.203.104/search?q=cache:45Utw1YJv4YJ:www.according2prophecy.org/
Preterism.html+preterism+false+teaching&hl=en&client=firefox-a

"Preterism rests on a faulty hermeneutic and raises serious concerns for sincere students of Scripture. Consider the following; Preterism:

1. Destroys the Literal Meaning of the Bible. Once you start arguing that the language of prophecy cannot be taken literally, you are not that far removed from not taking the rest of the Bible literally either. Preterists are following the dangerous path of liberalism which began denying predictive prophecy and soon rejected the literal interpretation of creation, the flood, the virgin birth of Christ, His vicarious death and bodily resurrection.

2. Distorts the Promise of the Second Coming. Placing the return of Christ in the past robs the Church of a confident expectation about the future. We are left on earth trying to “make the best of it” without any real hope of divine intervention. It leaves the Church trying to “bring in the Kingdom” without the King.

3. Diminishes the Hope of the Believer. Preterism negates the biblical commands to “watch” and “be ready” for the coming of Christ. It limits those injunctions to the first century believers prior to AD 70. In fact, it limits every biblical command related to the return of Christ. The phrase “until He comes” would have to be limited to AD 70. How can we “build the church” (Matthew 16:18) or “occupy until he comes.” In fact, how do we celebrate the communion service to “show forth the Lord’s death until he comes” (I Corinthians 11:26)? Should we stop celebrating the Lord’s Supper because He already came in AD 70?

4. Deprives Israel of Her Future. Preterists insist that God is finished with Israel. Many of them teach that it is actually Jesus who breaks the covenant with Israel in Daniel 9:26-27. In essence, Preterism pits Jesus against Israel and therefore smacks of anti-Semitism. Preterists actually teach that the “Babylon” of Revelation 17-18 is Jerusalem! Therefore, the fall of Jerusalem in AD 70 represents Christ’s ultimate triumph over unbelief.

5. Denies the Power of Christ. While most preterists would insist they are defending the power of Christ, they are actually denying it. They are trying to “bring in the Kingdom” without the King. And might I add, they are fighting a losing battle! Christianity is under attack like never before. We are not winning the battle for world dominion and we never will. Yes, the church will continue to grow (Matthew 16:18), but so will the resistance of Satan (1 Timothy 4:1). God will continue to do marvelous things in this world. But the Church will never bring the Kingdom of Heaven to earth until the King of Heaven returns in person. Dr. Ed Hindson, article appeared in the May 2005 issue of Jerry Falwells's The National Liberty Journal. The Conservative Christian's Newspaper, and also on their website www.nljonline.com."

 

[yeshuasavedme]

Okay so we are not saying the same thing then. I agree with that you are trying to say but not the nature of which the body is. You say it is the regenerated body of human flesh which I strongly disagree with you on.

I believe it is a spiritual body which we have already.

No, the spiritual body is the New Man in flesh versus the old man in flesh.
The body that the Holy Spirit prepared in the womb of the virgin that was not of the seed of Adam, but a New Creation human being, which prepared body the YHWH of hosts, second Person, is come in flesh to inhabit forever, is the spiritual body.
Adam was made a living soul, the Last Adam was made a Life giving Spirit -at His incarnation in that body of flesh.

Adam was made a 'living soul inhabiting a body of human flesh; the Last Adam was made a "Life Giving Spirit" inhabiting a body of New Man human flesh.
To be in Christ is to be in the One Spirit of the New Man, but we are yet in Adam, though born again in Spirit, versus being born in Adam dead and dying.

Adam was made male and female, one spirit, a living soul, and told to multiply the seed -which would have been godly seed =sons of God, before the fall; Malachi 2:15; Genesis 1:26-28; Genesis 5:2 ['man' in the English versions is 'Adam' in most verses in the Old Testament] Genesis 6;1,2 [Adam multiplied]; The being is spirit [Malachi 2:15], and we are all -who are descended from the first Adam- 'one spirit in Adam', but adopted into the New Man, the LORD from heaven, who 'is come' in the New Creation human flesh, as the Israel of God, brother to Adam [not a seed of Adam, but the only brother and the legal heir through the womb of the virgin]; and that adoption makes us the living son of God 'spiritual man' versus the dead, separated from the Presence of the Living Spirit, 'Adam spirit', the carnal, fallen, man.
But both the Adam and the Israel are men, in bodies of flesh with bone; and if we are adopted into the Living Spirit we will be regenerated in our own bodies in flesh with bone and glorified at that time, with the full measure of the glory that shall come, then, which is the crown of life that the gold crown of the Ark represents.

The river flowing from the throne represents the Spirit of Christ [the New Man Being] in which we are adopted, but the crown of gold that the Ark of the Covenant is crowned with represents our Life that we get when the body is regenerated [with the gold -the immortality] that the Ark of the gold plated wood box, the Ark of Covenant, represents.

Preterism completely ignores the oracles and the heavenly truths taught in the living oracles and makes up false things to say that have no basis in the Word of God and no relation to the teaching of the Word, really.

Adam and Christ are the only "two men" ="races of humans", both were made sons of God; The first man is dead as son of God though he will exist forever -and we are born in Adam and will die in Adam, physically (unless we are quickened at the time of His coming with the dead in Christ if we are living then). The Last Adam is the Living Spirit, versus the living soul of the first Adam, and the Living Spirit is the LORd from above, come in flesh and we who are adopted in His Life Giving Spirit will be regenerated in our own bodies of humanity, and glorified in the resurrection.


Both the old man and the New Man have bodies of flesh -the New Man has a New creation human body and we who are born from above will receive the regenerated bodies with our own DNA code, minus mutations, changed into the New Creation bodies (elements dissolved and regenerated), and renamed 'Israel' in the regeneration -Israel is the New Man, Jesus Christ in flesh -and that is why He is particular to tell us that He will save His namesake, the natural seed of Jacob, for His own names's sake, He says.
We are spiritual Israel only, until we are given our adoption bodies -then we will be renamed -no longer Adam (Genesis 5:2) but 'Israel';

Rev 3:12 Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, [which is] new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and [I will write upon him] my new name.

Then we will be no longer named 'Adam', when we receive our regenerated bodies -that is, if we belong to Him and have not denied His name; but until that regeneration of the body is received we are still in our 'Adam' bodies -though adopted in Spirit, we still are not adopted in body -and shall be.

Gen 5:2 Male and female created he them; and blessed them, and called their name Adam, in the day when they were created.

Adam died immediately, in his being, as a son of God, the very moment he ate that evil fruit. The redemption is about the New Man coming to redeem us back to the lost glory by cleansing our 'one being', the 'Adam being', and adopting us one by one [as persons] into His New Man Spirit, as we respond to His call to come to Him and repent and believe.


Adam could have lived forever in the physical body from that time, but forever dead as son of God, vain in his creation, and lost for his purpose, forever, and fit only to be a cast away -and we are the seed of Adam and in him we are what he is.

The casting from the Garden so that he could not eat of the tree of life in that body of separation because of the uncleanness of his being was a mercy from the Creator, so that Adam could be cleansed and redeemed.
Adam will never live as son of God again -but Adam will exist forever. as a cast away in the evrlasting fire. Every person in Adam who is not born from above -adopted in the New Man- will be resurrected in their own 'Adam person body' at the end of earth's week, of thousands of 'days' and will be judged for the deeds done by them in their body, and then will be cast aways forever in the lake of fire and thier place there will be determined by their own sins -for the first Adam's transgression is covered at the cross, by the blood of atonement, and no seed of Adam will be cast aways because of the first father's transgression; but only for their own unrepentent deeds and unbelief.
But they will be cast aways in their body -resurrected; which was the state of eternal separation that the Creator desired to save all in Adam from, by casting the first father out of the Garden and access to the tree of life. The atonement is paid, and no man will go to hell in their eternal body of separation for the transgression of the first father -his uncleanness of being is put away forever by that one offering of the sprinkled blood., but because all in Adam were covered by that blood of sprinkling, all in Adam will be resurrected in body.
The body is forever, in the resurrection, but in Adam it will be a cast away [by each person's own refusal of the Salvation offered in Christ] in the lake of fire: in Christ, the New Man's image, it will be regenerated and forever glorified as a habitation for the Presence of the Father's glory.

The human body of the human being is very important to the Creator; Adam was made as if struck from an exact image of the YHWH, second Person, and the being of the human was created to be a house for the Father to indwell.
He came to ransom us back for that -by cleansing us and adopting us, whosoever will: He will have the sons of God that He sought in the beginning of creation
-the rest will be cast aways.

Hbr 2:10 For it became him, for whom [are] all things, and by whom [are] all things, in bringing many sons unto glory, to make the captain of their salvation perfect through sufferings.


.

 

[yeshuasavedme]

That which is perfect has come, And that which was in part " was done away.

And now abide faith, hope, love, these three; but the greatest of these is love.

That is totally mis interpreting the Word of God.

Charity never faileth: but whether [there be] prophecies, they shall fail; whether [there be] tongues, they shall cease; whether [there be] knowledge, it shall vanish away.
For we know in part, and we prophesy in part.
But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away.
When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things.
For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known.
For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known.

knowledge has not vanished away; prophecies have not failed; tongues have not ceased; that which is perfect [the new man regenerated glorfiied body] has not come; we do not know as we are known; we do not see face to face.

 

[Hidden Manna]

Quote Originally Posted by: yeshuasavedme

There is much said, already, in the Scriptures about those who teach that the resurrection is past, aready, and it is most definitely false doctrine, and those who fall into that error are said to have had their faith overthrown, for the resurrection is about the body coming from the dust of this present creation, for us to dwell in, forver, in its regenerated form.

http://www.biblicalstudies.com/bstu...logy/preter.htm
"Preterist denials of the bodily resurrection are as old as the Corinthian error, but they are no more valid today than then. To affirm that we are living in the resurrection today is, again, to take a mere part for the whole. In the resurrection there is no marriage (Luk.20:35). Family relationships as we know them will be then past a detail difficult indeed to reconcile with preterism's idea of present resurrection. To render Paul's hope of the resurrection purely spiritual renders his words and much of his persecutions (e.g., Acts 4:1-2; 23:6) meaningless. Worse, it makes him a liar (1Cor.15:15).

"But shun profane and vain babblings, for they will increase to more ungodliness. And their message will spread like a cancer. Hymenaeus and Philetus are of this sort, who have strayed concerning the truth, saying that the resurrection is already past; and they overthrow the faith of some" (2Tim.2:16-18). In Paul's opinion, this preterist doctrine is a particularly dangerous one."
...
One more. In Mat.24:21 Jesus cites Dan.12:1, and Dan.12:2 explicitly establishes the time frame as that of physical resurrection "from the dust of the earth." To say this refers to this day of spiritual resurrection just will not do."

End Quote





"Now we request you, brethren, with regard to the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and our gathering together to Him, that you may not be quickly shaken from your composure or be disturbed either by a spirit or a message or a letter as if from us, to the effect that the day of the Lord has come." (II Thessalonians 2:1-2. New American Standard)

A similar passage is found in II Timothy 2:16-18. What is so challenging about these verses to the futurist view? Please ask yourself the following question: If the day of the Lord is, as you and I have always been traditionally taught, a time ending, universe destroying event, with people literally coming out of their graves how in the world could the Thessalonians ever have been convinced, as they obviously were, that the day of the Lord had already come?

All they had to do when any one would suggest such an idea was say "Look around! Time marches on. Obviously, the day of the Lord has not come!" The same could be said of the passage in II Timothy. If the resurrection is when all the physical graves are opened, when Jesus bodily, visibly descends on a cloud with the audible sound of a trumpet: how could any one convince those at Ephesus that it had already happened? The point is, Paul did not challenge the teaching concerning the nature of the day. He only challenged the chronology.)

The following is a comparison of how various translations render II Thessalonians 2:2.

1. KJV — is at hand.
2. ASV — is just at hand.
3. New KJV — as though ...had come.
4. RSV — has come
5. NASB — has come
6. New English Bible — is already here
7. NIV — has already come
8. Amplified — has (already) arrived and is here
9. Living New Testament — has already begun
10. McCord's New Testament Translation — has come
11. Williams — is already here
12. Beck — has already come
13. Good News For Modern Man — has come
14. Lamsa — at hand
15. Jerusalem — has already arrived
16. Berkeley — had arrived
17. Today's English Version — has come
18. Twentieth Century NT — is come
19. Emphasized NT, Rotherham — hath set in
20. Godspeed — had already come

Now here are my questions to you.

1) Please show me just one scripture by Paul to these saints were he says their understanding of the nature of the day of the Lord was wrong. Obviously, they did not have the same traditional literal physical concepts of a grave opening time ending when Jesus bodily, visibly descends on a cloud like many today. Please show me just one scripture were Paul tells them their spiritual nature of that day is wrong.

2) Please show me just one scripture by Paul to these saints that says the day of the Lord was not to happen in the same generation. Obviously, they did not have the same traditional ideas that Christ's would return thousands of years away.

Scripture please just scripture.

Please show me just one scripture by Paul to these saints were he says their understanding of the nature of the day of the Lord was wrong.

Please show me just one scripture by Paul to these saints that says the day of the Lord was not to happen in the same generation.

As we have seen here these saints never had the concept of a second coming 2.000 years away from the first. I will be looking forward to seeing your scripture.


(1) If God is in the practice of saying something is imminent when in reality it may not transpire for centuries, why is there not one single Old Covenant prophecy of the kingdom that said it was "at hand?"

(2) Please show me from history were anyone says those who made these early church preterist statements are wrong.

(3) Please show me from history were anyone about the decisive turning point in the second half of the second century towards a futuristic view is not the truth.

(4) Please show me from the new testament were anyone held the view of a second coming over 2.000 years away from the first.
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1.)Matthew 10:23 — Jesus said he would return in the lifetime of his disciples.

2.) Matthew 16:27-28 — Jesus said he would return with his angels to judge all men before every one standing there died. Please read it!

3.) Matthew 24:29-34 — Jesus said he would return in the clouds with his angels — in that generation.

4.) Acts 3:19ff — Peter said Jesus would return when all the Old Covenant prophets were fulfilled. If the Old Prophets have not been fulfilled the Old Covenant is still in effect, Matthew 5:17-18.

5.) Romans 13:12 — Paul said "the day is at hand."

6.) Romans 16:20 — Paul said God "will bruise Satan under your feet shortly."

7.) I Corinthians 1:4-8 — Paul said the Corinthians would have the miraculous gifts until "the end," the Day of the Lord.

8.) I Corinthians 7:28-31 — Paul said "the fashion of this world is passing away," and "the time is short."

9.) I Corinthians 15:51f — Paul said not all of them then living would die before the resurrection.

10.) Philippians 3:20-4:5 — Paul spoke of the resurrection at Christ's coming and said "The Lord is at hand."

11.) I Timothy 6:14 — Paul told Timothy to live faithfully "until the appearing of our Lord."

12.) Hebrews 9:28; 10:37 — The writer said Christ would appear a second time for salvation and then asserted "in a very, very little while he that will come will come, and will not tarry." Isn't it sad that man says Christ has delayed, in spite of what this verse says? what does inspiration mean? Did the writer lie? Was he mistaken?

13.) James 5:7-9 — James urged his readers to be faithful "until the coming of the Lord;" he says "The coming of the Lord is at hand:" and "The judge is standing right at the door."

14.) I Peter 4:5,7,17 — Peter said Jesus was then "ready to judge the living and the dead;" "the end of all things is at hand;" and "the time is come for the judgment to begin at the house of God."

15.) I John 2:15-18 — John said the world was passing away and "it is the last hour."

16.) Revelation — this book says no less than ten times that its predictions "must shortly come to pass," were "at hand," were to happen "quickly," there would be "no more delay," etc, etc.

 

[yeshuasavedme]

Three thousand years ago, the Psalmist prophesied that the wicked would "soon" be totally removed from the earth -and found no more by diligent search, and that the meek would inherit the earth and delight themselves in the abundance of peace..
Two thousand years years ago, Jesus Christ reinforced the promise that, soon, He is returning to set up His earthly kingdom from restored Israel in Jerusalem.

God's timing is not your timing. His day is as a thousand years and a thousand years is as a day to Him.
C.S. Lewis understood the biblical truth of time differences in earth versus in heaven, and wrote a fairy tale that folks love, about 'Narnian time' versus 'earth' time, that gives a glimpse of what it is like with God versus us.
in God's heaven, earth time is a small, small, small, ratio to eternity -to come.

In our small minded limited vision existence, it is folly to think that the total of our experience is a long time in relation to our Creator and His promises that 'soon" He is returning to set up His earthly kingdom and destroy all the wicked from the earth.

Eternity to earth ratios makes our earthly time as nothing; just seven total days in all are allowed, from God's point of view, for this earth, and they are each a thousand years long, to our point of view; and because our measure begins with ourselves, and not with God's point of view, we then err in doctrine to measure His promises with our puny time on earth!

He did not hide the times that He will fullfill, but gave them as oracles to the nation of Israel to live as His signs. This new doctrine called Preterism is totally false, though it seems that many who have confessed Jesus Christ as their Savior have fallen into the error that overthrows the faith of some, teaching that the resurrection is already past!.

He is coming soon -and that without remedy.
The preaching of the Gospel is the preaching of the Kingdom of God to soon be coming to this earth, and the wicked being removed and cast into the outer darkness -forever.

He is coming.
He is coming soon.
He is coming suddenly, without remedy of change for the condition one is found in at His coming.
"Today" is the Day of Salvation -tomorrow will be too late; the Gospel is "repent and believe while there is hope, or one will be cut off from the inheritance in the kingdom forever" at His return.

 

[Hidden Manna]

Three thousand years ago, the Psalmist prophesied that the wicked would "soon" be totally removed from the earth -and found no more by diligent search, and that the meek would inherit the earth and delight themselves in the abundance of peace..
Two thousand years years ago, Jesus Christ reinforced the promise that, soon, He is returning to set up His earthly kingdom from restored Israel in Jerusalem.

God's timing is not your timing. His day is as a thousand years and a thousand years is as a day to Him.
C.S. Lewis understood the biblical truth of time differences in earth versus in heaven, and wrote a fairy tale that folks love, about 'Narnian time' versus 'earth' time, that gives a glimpse of what it is like with God versus us.
in God's heaven, earth time is a small, small, small, ratio to eternity -to come.

In our small minded limited vision existence, it is folly to think that the total of our experience is a long time in relation to our Creator and His promises that 'soon" He is returning to set up His earthly kingdom and destroy all the wicked from the earth.

Eternity to earth ratios makes our earthly time as nothing; just seven total days in all are allowed, from God's point of view, for this earth, and they are each a thousand years long, to our point of view; and because our measure begins with ourselves, and not with God's point of view, we then err in doctrine to measure His promises with our puny time on earth!

He did not hide the times that He will fullfill, but gave them as oracles to the nation of Israel to live as His signs. This new doctrine called Preterism is totally false, though it seems that many who have confessed Jesus Christ as their Savior have fallen into the error that overthrows the faith of some, teaching that the resurrection is already past!.

He is coming soon -and that without remedy.
The preaching of the Gospel is the preaching of the Kingdom of God to soon be coming to this earth, and the wicked being removed and cast into the outer darkness -forever.

He is coming.
He is coming soon.
He is coming suddenly, without remedy of change for the condition one is found in at His coming.
"Today" is the Day of Salvation -tomorrow will be too late; the Gospel is "repent and believe while there is hope, or one will be cut off from the inheritance in the kingdom forever" at His return.

In the Psalms David often speaks with the voice of Christ. Look at Psalms 22.
Jesus called the Pharisees and Sadducees "wicked" because of their trying to hold on to the Old Covenant and rejecting Him as Messiah.

Mat 16:4 Awicked and adulterous generation seeketh after a sign; and there shall no sign be given unto it, but the sign of the prophet Jonas. And he left them, and departed.

From Jesus’ ministry the wicked was only for "a little while which ended in AD 70 for that old covenant age. In this new covenant age which was the age to come to the transitional saints of the first century the wicked now dwell outside of the gates to the spiritual city called the new Jerusalem.

My question to you is: are you waiting for this to happen outside of the gates as a futurist or are you a partaker of the Kingdom of God now in the new heaven and earth living with Jesus Christ as He is glorified in you for right now, not as a hope for the future but as a reality for today ?

I am not speaking as a futurist Kingdom now person who thinks they have to prepare the kingdom now before Christ comes, I speaking as a full preterist who is saying that the Kingdom of Jesus Christ has been increasing since AD70.

Where is your faith, where do you stand, inside the new Jerusalem or outside of the gates ?

Now here are my questions to you.

1) Please show me just one scripture by Paul to these saints were he says their understanding of the nature of the day of the Lord was wrong. Obviously, they did not have the same traditional literal physical concepts of a grave opening time ending when Jesus bodily, visibly descends on a cloud like many today. Please show me just one scripture were Paul tells them their spiritual nature of that day is wrong.

2) Please show me just one scripture by Paul to these saints that says the day of the Lord was not to happen in the same generation. Obviously, they did not have the same traditional ideas that Christ's would return thousands of years away.

Scripture please just scripture.

Please show me just one scripture by Paul to these saints were he says their understanding of the nature of the day of the Lord was wrong.

Please show me just one scripture by Paul to these saints that says the day of the Lord was not to happen in the same generation.

As we have seen here these saints never had the concept of a second coming 2.000 years away from the first. I will be looking forward to seeing your scripture.


(1) If God is in the practice of saying something is imminent when in reality it may not transpire for centuries, why is there not one single Old Covenant prophecy of the kingdom that said it was "at hand?"

(2) Please show me from history were anyone says those who made these early church preterist statements are wrong.

(3) Please show me from history were anyone about the decisive turning point in the second half of the second century towards a futuristic view is not the truth.

(4) Please show me from the new testament were anyone held the view of a second coming over 2.000 years away from the first.


Answer these questions and have a Merry Christmas

 

[yeshuasavedme]

Three thousand years ago, the Psalmist prophesied that the wicked would "soon" be totally removed from the earth -and found no more by diligent search, and that the meek would inherit the earth and delight themselves in the abundance of peace..
Two thousand years years ago, Jesus Christ reinforced the promise that, soon, He is returning to set up His earthly kingdom from restored Israel in Jerusalem.

God's timing is not your timing. His day is as a thousand years and a thousand years is as a day to Him.
C.S. Lewis understood the biblical truth of time differences in earth versus in heaven, and wrote a fairy tale that folks love, about 'Narnian time' versus 'earth' time, that gives a glimpse of what it is like with God versus us.
in God's heaven, earth time is a small, small, small, ratio to eternity -to come.

In our small minded limited vision existence, it is folly to think that the total of our experience is a long time in relation to our Creator and His promises that 'soon" He is returning to set up His earthly kingdom and destroy all the wicked from the earth.

Eternity to earth ratios makes our earthly time as nothing; just seven total days in all are allowed, from God's point of view, for this earth, and they are each a thousand years long, to our point of view; and because our measure begins with ourselves, and not with God's point of view, we then err in doctrine to measure His promises with our puny time on earth!

He did not hide the times that He will fullfill, but gave them as oracles to the nation of Israel to live as His signs. This new doctrine called Preterism is totally false, though it seems that many who have confessed Jesus Christ as their Savior have fallen into the error that overthrows the faith of some, teaching that the resurrection is already past!.

He is coming soon -and that without remedy.
The preaching of the Gospel is the preaching of the Kingdom of God to soon be coming to this earth, and the wicked being removed and cast into the outer darkness -forever.

He is coming.
He is coming soon.
He is coming suddenly, without remedy of change for the condition one is found in at His coming.
"Today" is the Day of Salvation -tomorrow will be too late; the Gospel is "repent and believe while there is hope, or one will be cut off from the inheritance in the kingdom forever" at His return.

Isaiah 62:6,7; "I have set watchmen upon thy walls, O Jerusalem, [which] shall never hold their peace day nor night: ye that make mention of the LORD, keep not silence And give him no rest, till he establish, and till he make Jerusalem a praise in the earth."

Matthew 6:9,10; "After this manner therefore pray ye: Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name.
Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done in earth, as [it is] in heaven..."
When they therefore were come together, they asked of him, saying, Lord, wilt thou at this time restore again the kingdom to Israel? And he said unto them, It is not for you to know the times or the seasons, which the Father hath put in his own power. But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth."

Soon!

 

[yeshuasavedme]

The sign given to the wicked and adultrous generation is the sign of the finished atonement for the salvation for all in Adam -whosoever will.

That one sign is all that one generation gets -and whoever resists the Holy Spirit will be cut off from the Salvation offered to all in Adam by the blood of sprinkling of the New Man and His death and resurrection after three days in his own body of the New Creation.

 

[Hidden Manna]

Three thousand years ago, the Psalmist prophesied that the wicked would "soon" be totally removed from the earth -and found no more by diligent search, and that the meek would inherit the earth and delight themselves in the abundance of peace..
Two thousand years years ago, Jesus Christ reinforced the promise that, soon, He is returning to set up His earthly kingdom from restored Israel in Jerusalem.

God's timing is not your timing. His day is as a thousand years and a thousand years is as a day to Him.
C.S. Lewis understood the biblical truth of time differences in earth versus in heaven, and wrote a fairy tale that folks love, about 'Narnian time' versus 'earth' time, that gives a glimpse of what it is like with God versus us.
in God's heaven, earth time is a small, small, small, ratio to eternity -to come.

In our small minded limited vision existence, it is folly to think that the total of our experience is a long time in relation to our Creator and His promises that 'soon" He is returning to set up His earthly kingdom and destroy all the wicked from the earth.

Eternity to earth ratios makes our earthly time as nothing; just seven total days in all are allowed, from God's point of view, for this earth, and they are each a thousand years long, to our point of view; and because our measure begins with ourselves, and not with God's point of view, we then err in doctrine to measure His promises with our puny time on earth!

He did not hide the times that He will fullfill, but gave them as oracles to the nation of Israel to live as His signs. This new doctrine called Preterism is totally false, though it seems that many who have confessed Jesus Christ as their Savior have fallen into the error that overthrows the faith of some, teaching that the resurrection is already past!.

He is coming soon -and that without remedy.
The preaching of the Gospel is the preaching of the Kingdom of God to soon be coming to this earth, and the wicked being removed and cast into the outer darkness -forever.

He is coming.
He is coming soon.
He is coming suddenly, without remedy of change for the condition one is found in at His coming.
"Today" is the Day of Salvation -tomorrow will be too late; the Gospel is "repent and believe while there is hope, or one will be cut off from the inheritance in the kingdom forever" at His return.

yeshuasavedme, if you want to convince us preterist that we do not know what we are talking about you will need to answer the questions below in order to show us and the rest of the people who read these post that Jesus and the apostles did not mean what they said and were not telling the truth.

And you will need to show us that the gospel was not everlasting after He returned in AD70. We say the gospel is everlasting and people may only be cut off after physical death if they do not repent and believe.

Please address what is below, if you cannot then we must believe what Jesus and the apostles said and not what you think they meant.




In the Psalms David often speaks with the voice of Christ. Look at Psalms 22.
Jesus called the Pharisees and Sadducees "wicked" because of their trying to hold on to the Old Covenant and rejecting Him as Messiah.

Mat 16:4 Awicked and adulterous generation seeketh after a sign; and there shall no sign be given unto it, but the sign of the prophet Jonas. And he left them, and departed.

From Jesus’ ministry the wicked was only for "a little while which ended in AD 70 for that old covenant age. In this new covenant age which was the age to come to the transitional saints of the first century the wicked now dwell outside of the gates to the spiritual city called the new Jerusalem.

My question to you is: are you waiting for this to happen outside of the gates as a futurist or are you a partaker of the Kingdom of God now in the new heaven and earth living with Jesus Christ as He is glorified in you for right now, not as a hope for the future but as a reality for today ?

I am not speaking as a futurist Kingdom now person who thinks they have to prepare the kingdom now before Christ comes, I speaking as a full preterist who is saying that the Kingdom of Jesus Christ has been increasing since AD70.

Where is your faith, where do you stand, inside the new Jerusalem or outside of the gates ?

Now here are my questions to you.

1) Please show me just one scripture by Paul to these saints were he says their understanding of the nature of the day of the Lord was wrong. Obviously, they did not have the same traditional literal physical concepts of a grave opening time ending when Jesus bodily, visibly descends on a cloud like many today. Please show me just one scripture were Paul tells them their spiritual nature of that day is wrong.

2) Please show me just one scripture by Paul to these saints that says the day of the Lord was not to happen in the same generation. Obviously, they did not have the same traditional ideas that Christ's would return thousands of years away.

Scripture please just scripture.

Please show me just one scripture by Paul to these saints were he says their understanding of the nature of the day of the Lord was wrong.

Please show me just one scripture by Paul to these saints that says the day of the Lord was not to happen in the same generation.

As we have seen here these saints never had the concept of a second coming 2.000 years away from the first. I will be looking forward to seeing your scripture.


(1) If God is in the practice of saying something is imminent when in reality it may not transpire for centuries, why is there not one single Old Covenant prophecy of the kingdom that said it was "at hand?"

(2) Please show me from history were anyone says those who made these early church preterist statements are wrong.

(3) Please show me from history were anyone about the decisive turning point in the second half of the second century towards a futuristic view is not the truth.

(4) Please show me from the new testament were anyone held the view of a second coming over 2.000 years away from the first.

 

[yeshuasavedme]

Hello HiddenManna, -and any preterists,
I have a grandson whose parents built a house on property that they bought that took four fifths of his life, as he had experienced it, to complete, from the purchase of the property to the preparing of it to the building of the house.

He was an infant when they began the process, and though his parents prepared the property and built the house in a small amount of time, in ratios to their experience of years, yet, to my grandson, it was more than three fourths of his life and took forever. But His parents told him all along it was the house they were building to occupy and was theirs, and it would be finished 'soon'.

No one with a bit of understanding would have tried to tell him that he was really living in the house until they moved in.
He was able to enter it daily, as they lived 'next' door, and see it by lifting up his eyes (it was on a hill above them), and take part in the process of preparing it (his daddy let him hammer pegs in the bannister and 'nails' in other places -that daddy started, first, though he was a little bitty thing); and if one would have tried to convince him that his mommy and daddy were really living in it and he had it as his own 'occupied' home before the house was finished (though it was thiers, and he had a place in it) and he could see it and take part in it and visit it daily, then he would have believed them to be living in a fairy tale world [but grown ups call it insanity -or false doctrine).

How does God measure time? -C.S. Lewis understood it from the biblical perspective. Narnia time is ages and ages while it is the same moment on earth!

God has a measure that He has shown us in Ezekiel 47, and in that measure, He calls each day just one cubit, since the beginning of creation; and in the beginning of the fifth thousand cubits, the fifth millennium, the river of Life is abundantly available to all 'in Adam' by the atonement of the New Man in the beginning of the fifth millennium.

Ezekiel 47:5,6;
"Afterward he measured a thousand; [and it was] a river that I could not pass over: for the waters were risen, waters to swim in, a river that could not be passed over."

And he said unto me, Son of man, hast thou seen [diligently considered] [this]? ..."

John 14:1-3;
Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me.
In my Father's house are many dwelling places: if [it were] not [so], I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.
And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, [there] ye may be also.

Now, He's promised us that He is coming soon! -like lightning!
He's coming without remedy for change -we must watch and pray and live godly sober, holy, lives and be ready to meet the bridegroom when He comes!

 

[Hidden Manna]

Hello HiddenManna, -and any preterists,
I have a grandson whose parents built a house on property that they bought that took four fifths of his life, as he had experienced it, to complete, from the purchase of the property to the preparing of it to the building of the house.

He was an infant when they began the process, and though his parents prepared the property and built the house in a small amount of time, in ratios to their experience of years, yet, to my grandson, it was more than three fourths of his life and took forever. But His parents told him all along it was the house they were building to occupy and was theirs, and it would be finished 'soon'.

No one with a bit of understanding would have tried to tell him that he was really living in the house until they moved in.
He was able to enter it daily, as they lived 'next' door, and see it by lifting up his eyes (it was on a hill above them), and take part in the process of preparing it (his daddy let him hammer pegs in the bannister and 'nails' in other places -that daddy started, first, though he was a little bitty thing); and if one would have tried to convince him that his mommy and daddy were really living in it and he had it as his own 'occupied' home before the house was finished (though it was thiers, and he had a place in it) and he could see it and take part in it and visit it daily, then he would have believed them to be living in a fairy tale world [but grown ups call it insanity -or false doctrine).

How does God measure time? -C.S. Lewis understood it from the biblical perspective. Narnia time is ages and ages while it is the same moment on earth!

God has a measure that He has shown us in Ezekiel 47, and in that measure, He calls each day just one cubit, since the beginning of creation; and in the beginning of the fifth thousand cubits, the fifth millennium, the river of Life is abundantly available to all 'in Adam' by the atonement of the New Man in the beginning of the fifth millennium.

Ezekiel 47:5,6;
"Afterward he measured a thousand; [and it was] a river that I could not pass over: for the waters were risen, waters to swim in, a river that could not be passed over."

And he said unto me, Son of man, hast thou seen [diligently considered] [this]? ..."

John 14:1-3;
Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me.
In my Father's house are many dwelling places: if [it were] not [so], I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.
And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, [there] ye may be also.

Now, He's promised us that He is coming soon! -like lightning!
He's coming without remedy for change -we must watch and pray and live godly sober, holy, lives and be ready to meet the bridegroom when He comes!

Sorry but you have not answered my questions to you enough to convince me or any other Preterist that your view is right based on what you wrote.

1) Please show me just one scripture by Paul to these saints were he says their understanding of the nature of the day of the Lord was wrong. Obviously, they did not have the same traditional literal physical concepts of a grave opening time ending when Jesus bodily, visibly descends on a cloud like many today. Please show me just one scripture were Paul tells them their spiritual nature of that day is wrong.

2) Please show me just one scripture by Paul to these saints that says the day of the Lord was not to happen in the same generation. Obviously, they did not have the same traditional ideas that Christ's would return thousands of years away.

Scripture please just scripture.

Please show me just one scripture by Paul to these saints were he says their understanding of the nature of the day of the Lord was wrong.

Please show me just one scripture by Paul to these saints that says the day of the Lord was not to happen in the same generation.

As we have seen here these saints never had the concept of a second coming 2.000 years away from the first. I will be looking forward to seeing your scripture.


(1) If God is in the practice of saying something is imminent when in reality it may not transpire for centuries, why is there not one single Old Covenant prophecy of the kingdom that said it was "at hand?"

(2) Please show me from history were anyone says those who made these early church preterist statements are wrong.

(3) Please show me from history were anyone about the decisive turning point in the second half of the second century towards a futuristic view is not the truth.

(4) Please show me from the new testament were anyone held the view of a second coming over 2.000 years away from the first.



Seeing that you can not answer my questions read this artical by clicking in to the link below and let me know what you think of it.

http://www.newjerusalemcommunity.net/?c=51&a=1312

 

[notswift]

i have been hiphopping about in this discussion series in hopes of sorting through an uncomfortable concept recently presented to me... were i not so fond of the person who presented the concept, i mite have just labled the teachings as heretical as Mormonism or any of the other 'ism's buzzing bout the world. .. oh.. that which i am speaking of is called the Presence movement.
seems the teaching is that Christ has come in AD70, satan is bound, we are now living in the 'new earth', i am not going to get a new spiritual body, and there is now no more sin, sorrow or tears to those who believe in Jesus.
this discussion series has been interesting. i wonder had i happened upon this thread of dissagreements or Presence before accepting Jesus as my Lord and Savior that i would have even considered Christ and Him crucified.
honestly... i am now beginning to wonder if it is all a farce.. all of it... if Jesus has fulfilled all prophecy.. especially those which promise no more sorrow, no more tears i have but two options to consider - Jesus was not the Christ or .. i am not His.
interesting concept. kinda scarey.. but, maybe of little concequence if this present day is as good as it gets .... of course, i know it's not all about me - if He has rejected me from before i was in my mother's womb, than, of course how could i argue with His wisdom in such matters. .. .. how should any of us expect to enter His kingdom unless we are willing to enter as 'these little ones', for the kingdom is made up of such as these. ... and, certainly, bad stuff for those that lead such little ones astray.. the millstone thing and all that.
Paul said there was one thing he knew.. Jesus and Him crucified... once, i thought that that was enough to know... now i am a bit fuzzy bout all of what i did know and what i thought God had promised.
echh... what a mess.
i wonder what the angels think of all this ballywho?... hmmm... i wonder why i havent even seen one of them if the kingdom of God has completely arrived... hmm.. oh.. that's right.. i might not be one of the 'lucky' ones to have been chosen to enter.
there was once a time when i thought that even a fool such as me wouldnt stumble on the way of holiness.. if confusion is a measure of disbelief, mine is sorely increasing with the teachings of some who claim to be His.
God Speed! jef

 

[Hidden Manna]

i have been hiphopping about in this discussion series in hopes of sorting through an uncomfortable concept recently presented to me... were i not so fond of the person who presented the concept, i mite have just labled the teachings as heretical as Mormonism or any of the other 'ism's buzzing bout the world. .. oh.. that which i am speaking of is called the Presence movement.
seems the teaching is that Christ has come in AD70, satan is bound, we are now living in the 'new earth', i am not going to get a new spiritual body, and there is now no more sin, sorrow or tears to those who believe in Jesus.
this discussion series has been interesting. i wonder had i happened upon this thread of dissagreements or Presence before accepting Jesus as my Lord and Savior that i would have even considered Christ and Him crucified.
honestly... i am now beginning to wonder if it is all a farce.. all of it... if Jesus has fulfilled all prophecy.. especially those which promise no more sorrow, no more tears i have but two options to consider - Jesus was not the Christ or .. i am not His.
interesting concept. kinda scarey.. but, maybe of little concequence if this present day is as good as it gets .... of course, i know it's not all about me - if He has rejected me from before i was in my mother's womb, than, of course how could i argue with His wisdom in such matters. .. .. how should any of us expect to enter His kingdom unless we are willing to enter as 'these little ones', for the kingdom is made up of such as these. ... and, certainly, bad stuff for those that lead such little ones astray.. the millstone thing and all that.
Paul said there was one thing he knew.. Jesus and Him crucified... once, i thought that that was enough to know... now i am a bit fuzzy bout all of what i did know and what i thought God had promised.
echh... what a mess.
i wonder what the angels think of all this ballywho?... hmmm... i wonder why i havent even seen one of them if the kingdom of God has completely arrived... hmm.. oh.. that's right.. i might not be one of the 'lucky' ones to have been chosen to enter.
there was once a time when i thought that even a fool such as me wouldnt stumble on the way of holiness.. if confusion is a measure of disbelief, mine is sorely increasing with the teachings of some who claim to be His.
God Speed! jef

The presence movement is not what most Preterist believe because that movement believe in universalism. We call them universal preterist or UP which I am not. Another name for this is comprehendsive grace or CG. I would not go as far as to call them hereitics though, we agree to disagree and IMO there are many of them who really love God and the other people. To me that is where it is at anyway, it's not that you have all the right doctrine that will justify you in the end.



However I believe your confusion is from the modern day traditional teachings from man who teach futurism fantasies like what you concieve the hope of the future to be. I am truely sorry for you because of the false hopes that surround your physical fulfillment expectations and this just convinces me all the more how dangerous the futurist fantasy is. The true is all believers now have a spiritual glofied body and it is that body that never dies even after they die physically. Just like Jesus said to Marth and Mary in John 11.

You are now not sure that you are saved not to mention your doubt about anything concerning God's word. You are not alone in this because most Preterist I know felt this way to some degree before they understood more about the Preterist view and how everthing ties in. In every case we all had to lay aside all, of our preconcieved ideas and start from the begining all over again.

My doubts now are not in what I believe now, but all the 30 + years I wasted as a futurist. I was at that time though a true seeker and the traditional teaching did not bind me as it does to so many. I was willing to lay aside all of my preconceived ideas even after spending 3 years writing a book on end-times which I gladly trashed after I found out about the full preterist view.

John 3:3Jesus answered and said to him, "Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.

John 3:6
"That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

Luke 17:20
. Now when He was asked by the Pharisees when the kingdom of God would come, He answered them and said, "The kingdom of God does not come with observation ;

Complete salvation.

Sometimes Christians seem to forget, that when it comes to the Bible we are reading someone else’s mail. The Epistles, are just that, letters. ... The letters of the New Testament were not written to us. Consider what the letters say, such as; (To all who are in Rome, beloved of God, called to be saints. Romans 1:7), (To the church of God which is at Corinth, to those who are sanctified in Christ Jesus. 1 Corinthians 1:2), (To the church of God which is at Corinth, with all the saints who are in all Achaia. 2 Corinthians 1:2 (To the church of Galatia. Galatians 1:2), (To the saints who are in Ephesus, and faithful in Christ Jesus. Ephesians 1:1), (To all the saints in Christ Jesus who are in Philippi, with the bishops and deacons. Philippians 1:1), (To the saints and faithful brethren in Christ who are in Colosse. Colossians 1:2), ( To the church of the Thessalonians in God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ. 1 Thessalonians 1:1)

(To Timothy, a true son in the faith Timothy. 1:2) (To Titus, a true son in our common faith. Titus 1:4) (To Philemon our beloved and fellow laborer Philemon 1:1), (To the twelve tribes which are scattered abroad James 1:1) (To the seven churches of Asia. 1 Peter 1:1) and the list goes on. These were letters written to first century people and first century churches about first century situations and events. God has preserved these letters for us today for our learning, instruction, and comfort but they were not written to us. They were written to first century people.
End quote;

How true a statement.
We are in effect reading someone else’s mail. When we read these letters we must understand them as they were written. When the writer told the readers that these events would happen ‘soon’, he was talking about events that were about to happen at that time in the first century. We have absolutely no problem understanding this principle when reading the Old Testament, why so much problem understanding it in the New Testament?

Secondly, and just as important, we must remember that the New Testament was written during what has been called the “transition period,” or as I have come to call it, the “new exodus” (See I Corinthians 10: 1-11 ). During this new exodus, the people of God did not have His Word written on stone tablets like Old Covenant Israel. Therefore, God gave the maturing “man” a group of men (the Apostles) to guide them to the promised rest, i.e., the completed New Covenant Age of Christ.

This is what scholarship calls “the already but not yet” of the New Testament, meaning that there were parts of salvation already being “tasted,” but the consummation was yet to come (cf Ephesians 2:8 with Romans 13:11). That salvation was predicted, foreshadowed, and proclaimed in the Old Testament. It was a salvation that would be fulfilled and realized fully consummated at His Presence in the end of the old-covenant age in A.D. 70. The cross was the beginning of salvation not the full consummation of salvation.

(Hebrews 9:28)
Salvation didn’t come at the cross. It didn’t come at Pentecost. It didn’t come at the ascension. According to the pattern of the Old Testament, forgiveness of sins came when the high priest came out from the Presence behind the veil. Jesus, representing us, was in the Presence of God at the time of the writing of Hebrews. All of that generation knew it would take the return of Jesus to complete the work of atonement. Thus they spoke of this redemptive work as a hope. Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time. (1 Peter 1:5) Receiving the end of your faith, even the salvation of your souls.(1Peter 1:9) Of which salvation the prophets have enquired and searched diligently, who prophesied of the grace [that should come] unto you: (1Peter 1:10)

Salvation i.e., “deliverance” was inaugurated in the ministry of Jesus. It was ratified or confirmed through His Cross [not at the Cross], and consummated in His Parousia. Think about it - if salvation was all in all secured at or on the Cross, then what need was there further - do you follow? And that, knowing the time, that now it is high time to awake out of sleep: for now is our salvation is nearer than when we believed . (Roman 13:11)

The Cross was the linch-pin, the central part in securing our salvation, however, Christ’s Coming in AD70 completed it. Again, salvation came through or via the Cross of Calvary, the Victory of the Cross had an out working to completion in that generation. This is NOT saying that there was some inherent deficiency in the Cross, NO, it is saying the process of salvation started and finished with the parousia of God in Christ - His First and the parousia being the book-ends of Salvation - both encapsulating the Cross.

The disciples know salvation started at the cross but was NOT completed at the cross. Their Christian hope rested on the oath and promise of God. They also knew there High Priest would return before that generation passed away. Jesus emphasized this in His teaching. So they waited in eager anticipation for the finished work of salvation, or atonement. Peter wrote of these things: “. . . who are kept by the power of God through faith for salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.” (1 Peter 1:5)

When did our High Priest come out from the Holy of Holies to present Himself to the people? This question seems to be ignored by many Christians today. It is of vital importance, however, because unless our High Priest appears who can be saved? The Bible explains and interprets itself.

The example is set in the Old Testament. Every year on the Day of Atonement the high priest would enter in to the Presence behind the veil in the Holiest of all. “Also the tenth day of this seventh month shall be the Day of Atonement. It shall be a holy convocation for you; you shall afflict your souls, and offer an offering made by fire to the LORD. And you shall do no work on that same day, for it is the Day of Atonement, to make atonement for you before the LORD your God.” (Leviticus 23:27,28)

The High Priest must come out from the Holy of Holies to present Himself to the people so they know the blood of the sacrifice atoned for their sins. If the High Priest does not appear the people have no assurance of salvation. No appearance, no forgiveness.
Jesus Christ is our High Priest. “This hope we have as an anchor of the soul, both sure and steadfast, and which enters the Presence behind the veil, where the forerunner has entered for us, even Jesus, having become High Priest forever according to the order of Melchizedek.” (Hebrews 6:19, 20) It is obvious by these verses that He did enter the Presence behind the veil. And the Christians of that generation waited!
(Hebrews 9:28)
Jesus, representing us, was in the Presence of God at the time of the writing of Hebrews. All of that generation knew it would take the return of Jesus to complete the work of atonement. Thus they spoke of this redemptive work as a hope.

If Christ didn’t return, as some Christians would have us believe, then no one can truly say he has complete salvation. If Christ hasn’t come out from the Presence behind the veil, then the work of atonement is an unfinished work. Here is but another folly of Futurism.

The good news is Jesus did return! (The good news, or Gospel, is not preached correctly unless the Second Coming of Christ is included.) So if he has not returned then no Christian can say they are saved they can only say that they have a hope of salvation. If the New Covenant believer has been waiting for yet another stage of Christ’s work then what makes the New Covenant any better than the Old?

Question
(1)Were did any of disciples/Jewish writer of the New Testament say their salvation was completed at the cross without the High Priest coming out from behind the veil, or out of the Holy of Holies to present Himself to the people so they know the blood of the sacrifice atoned for their sins?

(2) Were does any of disciples / Jewish writers of the New Testament say complete salvation that came with the parousia was 2.000 years away.

(3) Were in the Old Testament does it teach the High Priest come out from the Holy of Holies thousands of years away from the first?

(4) If salvation was completed at the cross why did Paul say their salvation is nearer than when they believed years after the cross? . (Romans 13:11) These questions are but other follys of Futurism.

 

[yeshuasavedme]

i have been hiphopping about in this discussion series in hopes of sorting through an uncomfortable concept recently presented to me... were i not so fond of the person who presented the concept, i mite have just labled the teachings as heretical as Mormonism or any of the other 'ism's buzzing bout the world. .. oh.. that which i am speaking of is called the Presence movement.
seems the teaching is that Christ has come in AD70, satan is bound, we are now living in the 'new earth', i am not going to get a new spiritual body, and there is now no more sin, sorrow or tears to those who believe in Jesus.
this discussion series has been interesting. i wonder had i happened upon this thread of dissagreements or Presence before accepting Jesus as my Lord and Savior that i would have even considered Christ and Him crucified.
honestly... i am now beginning to wonder if it is all a farce.. all of it... if Jesus has fulfilled all prophecy.. especially those which promise no more sorrow, no more tears i have but two options to consider - Jesus was not the Christ or .. i am not His.
interesting concept. kinda scarey.. but, maybe of little concequence if this present day is as good as it gets .... of course, i know it's not all about me - if He has rejected me from before i was in my mother's womb, than, of course how could i argue with His wisdom in such matters. .. .. how should any of us expect to enter His kingdom unless we are willing to enter as 'these little ones', for the kingdom is made up of such as these. ... and, certainly, bad stuff for those that lead such little ones astray.. the millstone thing and all that.
Paul said there was one thing he knew.. Jesus and Him crucified... once, i thought that that was enough to know... now i am a bit fuzzy bout all of what i did know and what i thought God had promised.
echh... what a mess.
i wonder what the angels think of all this ballywho?... hmmm... i wonder why i havent even seen one of them if the kingdom of God has completely arrived... hmm.. oh.. that's right.. i might not be one of the 'lucky' ones to have been chosen to enter.
there was once a time when i thought that even a fool such as me wouldnt stumble on the way of holiness.. if confusion is a measure of disbelief, mine is sorely increasing with the teachings of some who claim to be His.
God Speed! jef

Fear not.
The Scripture is true.
If you have been born from above then you will be resurrected and or raptured and regenerated in body and be a priest forever, to our God -and rule and reign with Him in His coming kingdom.

The Word of God is about the creation, the fall, and the restoration of all things, and we're only part way through the story, there's lots to come, but to be a part of it we must be born from above.

We don't have to understand it all, but if we search the Scriptures -not the false doctrines of those who are claiming that all Scriptures have been fullfilled, then it is more and more clear as we do search with prayerful hearts, as good Bereans, proving all things and holding fast to those things which are true.

Jesus is the Way, the Truth, and the Life -if you are in Him, you have the Way, the Truth and the Life, and He will come to receive you to Himself along with -that is at the same moment in time as- all born from above Believers who have made the covenant with Him by blood.

And He has come to be the atonement of all 'in Adam' -not one person in Adam was chosen to be damned before they were made, but chosen to be adopted as sons of God in the New Creation Man, the Firstborn and brother to the dead Adam -and be 'married'; that is, to be "bone of His bone and flesh of flesh' in the regeneration; but not all respond to the call to be made acceptable in the New Man and the offer is rejected by many. It is for "whosoever will", and today is the day of salvation -tomorrow will be too late; and today, while it is called today, all are being called by the Light that lights every man that comes into the world who draws all men to Christ -whosoever will, that is.

The redemption is back, to son-ship, as it was in the beginning, before the fall, and about the regeneration of the heavens and the earth, and the story of the redemption is told in the oracles given to Israel, His namesake, in the law.

and the Yeshua of God has come and the work He came to do was finished at the cross; which is the altar that the heavenly one that Moses made a copy of was patterned after; and His body is the true Mercy Seat upon which the blood of sprinkling was sprinkled once, for all in Adam, as the once for all in Adam cleansing of their being, to make them acceptable and able to enter into the Presence of the Living Spirit above: but to enter, the clothes need changing, which is the body of clay that must be dissolved and regenerated to be in the mage of the acceptable firstborn, the Son of the Living God, and be glorified.

 

[Hidden Manna]

God said to Adam and Eve: of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, you will not eat, for on the day yo u will eat of it you will die - Gen 2:17 KJV)

It is also interesting to note that the Bible never uses the terms "resurrected body," "resurrection of the body," or "physical resurrection." Does that surprise you? The church uses those term quite often, but the Bible never does. The phrases that the Bible does use are "the resurrection of the dead" and "the resurrection from the dead" which can only apply to spiritual death.

So, in order to understand "resurrection" we must understand death. Resurrection is "resurrection from the dead." To understand death we need to go back to the book of beginnings, Genesis. In the book of Genesis we see God creating man:

Genesis 2:7-8 (NKJV) And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living being. 8 The LORD God planted a garden eastward in Eden, and there He put the man whom He had formed.

After creating man, God placed him in the garden of Eden and gave him a command.

Genesis 2:15-17 (NKJV) Then the LORD God took the man and put him in the garden of Eden to tend and keep it. 16 And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, "Of every tree of the garden you may freely eat; 17 "but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat of it you shall surely die."

God warned Adam, regarding the fruit from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, "the day that you eat of it you shall surely die." Adam disobeyed God and ate of the tree:

Genesis 3:6 (NKJV) So when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, that it was pleasant to the eyes, and a tree desirable to make one wise, she took of its fruit and ate. She also gave to her husband with her, and he ate.

Did Adam die that day? Not physically! Adam lived at least 800 years beyond the day he ate the fruit. But, God said he would die the day he ate and we know that God cannot lie. Adam did not die physically that day, but he did die spiritually. He died spiritually the moment he disobeyed because something about him changed. (His eyes were opened and he know he was naked).

Was Adam's physical eye's open before he sinned? Obvious they were so the Bible is telling us that something within Adam changed. Spiritual death is separation from God there for Adam was cast out of the garden that day.

A good point that Tyrone makes is physical death is a separation from the body and soul that does not separate man from God. Spiritual death is separation from God.

Behold, the Lord's hand is not shortened, That it cannot save; Nor His ear heavy, That it cannot hear. 2 But your iniquities have separated you from your God; And your sins have hidden His face from you, So that He will not hear. Isaiah 59:1-2 (NKJV)

We see here that it is mans sins that separated them from God therefore Adam was NOT put out of the garden to die physically but because his sins separated him from God. Because of Adam's sin, man was separated from God. He was dead in trespasses and sins. The focus of God's plan of redemption is to restore through Jesus Christ what man had lost in Adam.

This is the BIBLICAL VIEW of what would be restored in God's plan through Christ. Therefore, as through one man's (Adam) offense judgment came to all men, resulting in condemnation, even so through one Man's (Jesus) righteous act the free gift came to all men, resulting in justification of life. 19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so also by one Man's obedience many will be made righteous. Romans 5:18-19 (NKJV)

Because of Adam's sin, we are all born dead, separated from God. But through Jesus Christ came the resurrection from the dead. And you He made alive, who were dead in trespasses and sins, 2 in which you once walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit who now works in the sons of disobedience, 3 among whom also we all once conducted ourselves in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, just as the others. 4 But God, who is rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, 5 even when we were dead in trespasses, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), (Ephesians 2:1-5 (NKJV)

The coming to life was not physical therefore the death that was passed down from Adam was not physical death as many believe. 1 Corinthians 15:21 (NKJV) For since by man came death, by Man also came the resurrection of the dead.

Firstfruits from the Dead

Jesus was the firstfruits from the dead, but so were those first century saints who had firstfruits of the Spirit,

And not only [they], but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, [to wit], the redemption of our body. (Rom 8:23 )

They were the firstfruits of a come harvest of the rest of the believers like the Old Testament saints like Adam, Noah, Moses, Abraham etc.

The resurrection started with Christ the firstfruits and the firstfruits Christians. They were firstfruits because they would never die spritualy because of Christ. The resurrection began with the resurrection of Jesus. He opened the way. Those saints who died after they followed their Lord were the collective believers the first resurrection-firstfruits to God.

The firstfruits are related to the harvest as the part is to the whole. The firstfruits are also the first cut of harvest to be gathered. The term "firstfruits" itself implies, the remainder of the harvest was about ripe.

The harvest were the dead in Christ from the Old Covenant. These were people like Adam, Noah, Abraham, Moses, David, Job, Isaiah,"Old Covenant saints" were the rest of the harvest, the general resurrection.

The harvest, follows the ripening "perfecting and offering of the firstfruits unto God. This is not a new concept to Israel in the old testament.

 

[yeshuasavedme]

The Word of God is Truth, preterism is not true.

The body will be resurrected from the dust of the earth.

Only the body 'sleeps' in the dust of this earth in it's unconscious state of the dead elements that it comes from, after the spirit departs it; and the body will be raised from the elements of this earth in the resurrection.

Job 19:25-27; For I know [that] my redeemer liveth, and [that] he shall stand at the last [day] upon the earth:

And [though] after my skin [worms] destroy this [body], yet in my flesh shall I see God:
Whom I shall see for myself, and mine eyes shall behold, and not another; [though] my reins be consumed within me.

Dan 12:2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame [and] everlasting contempt.

'dust to dust', but the earth shall cast out the dead bodies from its dust and no more cover her slain.

Isa 26:19 Thy dead [men] shall live, [together with] my dead body shall they arise. Awake and sing, ye that dwell in dust: for thy dew [is as] the dew of herbs, and the earth shall cast out the dead.

And on another thread, I posted this, below, that shows that the body of human flesh that Jesus Christ returns in, is the very same body that He 'is come' to inhabit, from time He put it on, in the womb of the virgin; and died in; and rose in; and ascended in, and is glorified in; and is returning in.

"The Word of God clothed Himself with human flesh, and did not become less than Who He was, the Word of God, to put on the 'garment' of the 'prepared body' of flesh..

"Veiled in flesh the Godhead see!
Hail the incarnate Diety!"

In revelation 19;13, His clothing is the human body of flesh that He was put to death in for our blood atonement.

Rev 19:13 And he [was] clothed with a vesture dipped [baptized] in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.

clothed; AV - clothe 7, clothed with 4, array 3, array in 3, clothe in 3,
cast about 3, put on 1; 24

vesture; himation 1) a garment (of any sort) a) garments, i.e. the cloak or mantle and the tunic 2) the upper garment, the cloak or mantledipped;

bapto 1) to dip, dip in, immerse

Jhn 1:14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

Mar 10:38 But Jesus said unto them, Ye know not what ye ask: can ye drink of the cup that I drink of? and be baptized with the baptism that I am baptized with?

Consider it, preterists! He is clothed with the human flesh dipped in the 'blood of atonement'; which was His "baptism".

 

[Hidden Manna]

The Word of God is Truth, preterism is not true.

The body will be resurrected from the dust of the earth.

Only the body 'sleeps' in the dust of this earth in it's unconscious state of the dead elements that it comes from, after the spirit departs it; and the body will be raised from the elements of this earth in the resurrection.




'dust to dust', but the earth shall cast out the dead bodies from its dust and no more cover her slain.

Preterist Views of the Resurrection

By Kenneth Perkins

Jesus and the Eschatological Resurrection |John the Baptist and Eschatological Prophecy |An Examination of the Olivet Discourse |Preterist Views of the Resurrection |Will There Be a Rapture?

There are at least three preterist paradigms concerning “ the resurrection,” by which is meant the ultimate eschatological and soteriolgocial resurrection that occurred at the coming of Christ. These are the corporate resurrection, what will be called the “resurrection of regeneration,” and the post-mortem view. Let us examine these views.

The Corporate Resurrection

The corporate view holds that the resurrection is the raising of the nation of Israel from the dead (in the form of the church). This view is based on Isaiah 26:15-19, which in context appears to refer on some level to the life of the nation of Israel:

[15] You have increased the nation , O LORD, You have increased the nation, You are glorified; You have extended all the borders of the land . [16] O LORD, they sought You in distress; They could only whisper a prayer, Your chastening was upon them. [17] As the pregnant woman approaches {the time} to give birth, She writhes {and} cries out in her labor pains, Thus were we before You, O LORD. [18] We were pregnant, we writhed {in labor,} We gave birth, as it seems, {only} to wind. We could not accomplish deliverance for the earth, Nor were inhabitants of the world born. [19] Your dead will live; Their corpses will rise. You who lie in the dust, awake and shout for joy , For your dew {is as} the dew of the dawn, And the earth will give birth to the departed spirits. (Isaiah 26:15-19, NASB)

It is also based on Ezekiel 37, where the restoration of Israel is pictured as the rising from life of dry, dead bones. The terminology of graves is even found in the text:

[11] Then He said to me, “Son of man, these bones are the whole house of Israel; behold, they say, ‘Our bones are dried up and our hope has perished. We are completely cut off.’ [12] “Therefore prophesy and say to them, ‘Thus says the Lord GOD, “ Behold, I will open your graves and cause you to come up out of your graves, My people; and I will bring you into the land of Israel. [13] “Then you will know that I am the LORD, when I have opened your graves and caused you to come up out of your graves, My people . [14] “I will put My Spirit within you and you will come to life , and I will place you on your own land. Then you will know that I, the LORD, have spoken and done it,” declares the LORD’” (Ezekiel 37:11-14, NASB).

Various other passages may support this eschatological viewpoint:

[5] And now says the LORD, who formed Me from the womb to be His Servant, To bring Jacob back to Him, so that Israel might be gathered to Him (For I am honored in the sight of the LORD, And My God is My strength), [6] He says, “It is too small a thing that You should be My Servant To raise up the tribes of Jacob and to restore the preserved ones of Israel ; I will also make You a light of the nations So that My salvation may reach to the end of the earth.” [7] Thus says the LORD, the Redeemer of Israel {and} its Holy One, To the despised One, To the One abhorred by the nation, To the Servant of rulers, “Kings will see and arise, Princes will also bow down, Because of the LORD who is faithful, the Holy One of Israel who has chosen You” (Isaiah 49:5-7, NASB).

Here one sees from God the promise to “raise up” His servant Israel, which may be another prophecy of this future resurrection of the people. Part of this passage is found in Acts 13:44-48, indicating a first-century fulfillment of this scripture.

Another possible passage speaking of this resurrection is found in Hosea:

“Come, let us return to the LORD. For He has torn {us,} but He will heal us; He has wounded {us,} but He will bandage us. “He will revive us after two days; He will raise us up on the third day, That we may live before Him (Hosea 6:1, 2, NASB).

Here the restoration of Israel is likened to one who is revived being raised up, that the people might live before God. In this way was the nation “resurrected.”

[20] “A Redeemer will come to Zion, And to those who turn from transgression in Jacob,” declares the LORD. [21] “As for Me, this is My covenant with them,” says the LORD: “My Spirit which is upon you, and My words which I have put in your mouth shall not depart from your mouth, nor from the mouth of your offspring, nor from the mouth of your offspring’s offspring,” says the LORD, “from now and forever.”

[1] “Arise, shine; for your light has come, And the glory of the LORD has risen upon you. [2] “For behold, darkness will cover the earth And deep darkness the peoples; But the LORD will rise upon you And His glory will appear upon you. [3] “Nations will come to your light, And kings to the brightness of your rising. (Isaiah 59:20-60:3, NASB)

The last verses of Isaiah 59 are found in Romans 11:26, 27. Taken with Isaiah 26:19, one can see a close parallel to Isaiah 60:1 in the New Testament scriptures:

But all things become visible when they are exposed by the light, for everything that becomes visible is light. For this reason it says, “Awake, sleeper, And arise from the dead, And Christ will shine on you” (Ephesians 5:13, 14, NASB).

Considering the similarities between this passage and Isaiah 26 and 60, it is very possible that this passage is an allusion to these texts, and is therefore another a testimony of the dead body of Israel which was to rise and receive light from the YHWH in the Son, Christ, in the existence of the covenant promised by YHWH. Thus, these passages, and many others, point to a raising of the people of Israel to a life of devotion toward God, and support the corporate resurrection.

Another important thing which is to be taken into account is the fact that Christ is ultimately God’s “Israel.” Consider even the above passage in Hosea. Would this not also apply to the Christ?

[8] Now if we have died with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with Him, [9] knowing that Christ, having been raised from the dead, is never to die again; death no longer is master over Him. [10] For the death that He died, He died to sin once for all; but the life that He lives, He lives to God (Romans 6:8, NASB).

Just as the nation was to die and be raised to live toward God, Christ did the same.

A similar parallel can be seen in the forty-day temptation of Christ in the wilderness and the forty-year “transition period” of the church from the cross to destruction of the temple (Matthew 4:1-11; 1 Corinthians 10:1-11; Hebrews 3:7-4:11). Other examples include the rule of the saints promised both the Son and to all believers (Psalm 2; Acts 4:24-28; 13:33; Hebrews 1:5; 5:5; Revelation 2;26, 27) and the parallel of the calling of Israel out of Egypt and the calling of the church out of its bondage to sin (Hosea 11:1; Matthew 2:13-15; Romans 8:20, 21).

Why are these parallels between the experiences of Christ Himself and the church significant? The Bible explains:

[15] Brethren, I speak in terms of human relations: even though it is {only} a man’s covenant, yet when it has been ratified, no one sets it aside or adds conditions to it. [16] Now the promises were spoken to Abraham and to his seed. He does not say, “And to seeds,” as {referring} to many, but {rather} to one, “And to your seed,” that is, Christ. [17] What I am saying is this: the Law, which came four hundred and thirty years later, does not invalidate a covenant previously ratified by God, so as to nullify the promise. [18] For if the inheritance is based on law, it is no longer based on a promise; but God has granted it to Abraham by means of a promise (Galatians 3:15-18).

The promised covenant was made between Abraham and his “seed,” the Christ. How, then, does one become a part of this covenant?

[23] But before faith came, we were kept in custody under the law, being shut up to the faith which was later to be revealed. [24] Therefore the Law has become our tutor {to lead us} to Christ, so that we may be justified by faith. [25] But now that faith has come, we are no longer under a tutor. [26] For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus. [27] For all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ. [28] There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free man, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus. [29] And if you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham’s descendants, heirs according to promise (Galatians 3:23-29).

In being clothed with Christ, one becomes an heir of the promise and a descendant of Abraham. In fact, when people are united with Christ, they become “…members of His body” (Ephesians 5:30, NASB).

As Christ was the perfect servant of God, it is in Him that believers are able to live righteously:

[1] Therefore there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus. [2] For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has set you free from the law of sin and of death. [3] For what the Law could not do, weak as it was through the flesh, God {did:} sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and {as an offering} for sin, He condemned sin in the flesh, [4] so that the requirement of the Law might be fulfilled in us , who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit (Romans 8:1-4, NASB).

Therefore, we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God were making an appeal through us; we beg you on behalf of Christ, be reconciled to God. He made Him who knew no sin {to be} sin on our behalf, so that we might become the righteousness of God in Him (2 Corinthians 5:20, 21, NASB).

Thus, in the raised Christ, the people of God were raised at the parousia .

 

[Hidden Manna]

The Resurrection of Regeneration

The resurrection of regeneration view generally sees the resurrection as the spiritual rising to new life. Thus, the resurrection is spiritual regeneration:

[1] What shall we say then? Are we to continue in sin so that grace may increase? [2] May it never be! How shall we who died to sin still live in it? [3] Or do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus have been baptized into His death? [4] Therefore we have been buried with Him through baptism into death , so that as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, so we too might walk in newness of life . [5] For if we have become united with {Him} in the likeness of His death, certainly we shall also be {in the likeness} of His resurrection , [6] knowing this, that our old self was crucified with {Him,} in order that our body of sin might be done away with, so that we would no longer be slaves to sin; [7] for he who has died is freed from sin. [8] Now if we have died with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with Him , [9] knowing that Christ, having been raised from the dead, is never to die again; death no longer is master over Him. [10] For the death that He died, He died to sin once for all; but the life that He lives, He lives to God. [11] Even so consider yourselves to be dead to sin, but alive to God in Christ Jesus . (Romans 6:1-11, NASB)

Here and elsewhere (cf. Ephesians 2:1-6; Colossians 2:11, 12, 20-23), the Bible connects dying to sin and being raised with Christ in salvation. Although it is the case that this passage mentions the endowment of this newness of life in the past tense, the Bible does give some future ( parousia ) bestowal of spiritual life that was incomplete during the period between the crucifixion and the parousia :

Now the Lord is the Spirit, and where the Spirit of the Lord is, {there} is liberty. But we all, with unveiled face, beholding as in a mirror the glory of the Lord, are being transformed into the same image from glory to glory , just as from the Lord, the Spirit (2 Corinthians 3:17, 18, NASB).

[24] Now I rejoice in my sufferings for your sake, and in my flesh I do my share on behalf of His body, which is the church, in filling up what is lacking in Christ’s afflictions. [25] Of {this church} I was made a minister according to the stewardship from God bestowed on me for your benefit, so that I might fully carry out the {preaching of} the word of God, [26] {that is,} the mystery which has been hidden from the {past} ages and generations, but has now been manifested to His saints, [27] to whom God willed to make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles, which is Christ in you, the hope of glory (Colossians 1:24-27, NASB).

Both of these passages speak of the progressive nature of the transformation, renewing work of the Lord by the Spirit prior to the parousia . Notice how this would change at the coming of the Lord:

[50] Now I say this, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable. [51] Behold, I tell you a mystery; we will not all sleep, but we will all be changed , [52] in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet; for the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed . [53] For this perishable must put on the imperishable , and this mortal must put on immortality . [54] But when this perishable will have put on the imperishable, and this mortal will have put on immortality, then will come about the saying that is written, “DEATH IS SWALLOWED UP in victory (1 Corinthians 15:50-54, NASB).

At the parousia , those living would be changed, and would put on immortality. Before this, eternal life was a hope for which the Spirit of God acted as a guarantee:

Now He who establishes us with you in Christ and anointed us is God, who also sealed us and gave {us} the Spirit in our hearts as a pledge (2 Corinthians 1:21, 22, NASB).

For indeed while we are in this tent, we groan, being burdened, because we do not want to be unclothed but to be clothed, so that what is mortal will be swallowed up by life. [5] Now He who prepared us for this very purpose is God, who gave to us the Spirit as a pledge (2 Corinthians 5:4, 5, NASB).

In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation--having also believed, y ou were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise, who is given as a pledge of our inheritance , with a view to the redemption of {God’s own} possession, to the praise of His glory (Ephesians 1:13, 14, NASB).

Do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed for the day of redemption (Ephesians 4:30, NASB).

The Spirit, as one can see, acted before the parousia as seal upon those who were to receive the salvation for which the first-century believers hoped, but which had not yet arrived.

For in hope we have been saved, but hope that is seen is not hope ; for who hopes for what he {already} sees? But if we hope for what we do not see, with perseverance we wait eagerly for it (Romans 8:23-25, NASB).

What was this hope? As we have seen, it is the culmination of the formation of Christ in the believer. It is also the arrival of eternal life:

As for you, let that abide in you which you heard from the beginning. If what you heard from the beginning abides in you, you also will abide in the Son and in the Father. This is the promise which He Himself made to us: eternal life (1 John 2:24, 25, NASB).

This inheritance had not yet been realized:

But to which of the angels has He ever said, “SIT AT MY RIGHT HAND, UNTIL I MAKE YOUR ENEMIES A FOOTSTOOL FOR YOUR FEET”? Are they not all ministering spirits, sent out to render service for the sake of those who will inherit salvation ? (Hebrews 1:13, 14, NASB)

Note how some other translations render verse 14:

They are all spirits of spiritual service being sent out to render service for the sake of the ones being about to be inheriting salvation , are they not? (Analytical-Literal Translation of the New Testament)

Are they not all ministering spirits being sent out to minister for the sake of those who are about to inherit salvation ? (English Majority Text Version)

Are they not all ministering spirits for service, being sent out because of the ones being about to inherit salvation ? (Literal translation by Sovereign Grace Publishers)

are they not all spirits of service--for ministration being sent forth because of those about to inherit salvation ? (Young’s Literal Translation)

Are they not, all, spirits, doing public service, —for ministry, sent forth, for the sake of them who are about to inherit salvation ? (Rotheram Bible)

The word used in this passage and translated above as “about to” is “mello’:

G3195

mello

Thayer Definition:

1) to be about

1a) to be on the point of doing or suffering something

1b) to intend, have in mind, think to

The inheritance had not yet been received, but was about to occur (indicated by “mello”) at the time of the writing of the book of Hebrews, circa AD 65-68. Thus, the eternal life of which John wrote is the immortality of 1 Corinthians 15, and the completion of the process of the transformation to the glory of Christ, with Christ dwelling in us. Thus, the resurrection is the bestowal of life that occurred at the Lord’s coming, circa AD 70.

By Kenneth Perkins