Was God's Kingdom already established in 70 AD ? - Preterism views

[Hidden Manna]

No, that is not true, by Scripture's testimony.

I believe that preterists Deceitfully handle the Word of God, and that it is a false religion, as it blatantly declares that things have happened that have not -for their own agendas, I suppose, of drawing off men after themselves.

Ezekiel's temple has not been built.
It changes the law of Moses, making the High Priest the King -and the Messiah; and the temple would not fit on the temple mount now, or any time in the past; but the Messiah will raise the temple mount at His return, and level the surrounding plains -and He will build the temple.

The temple Ezekiel received plans for has no veil to the Holy of Holies and no Ark of the covenant; but in the Holy of Holies the throne of Messiah is placed, where He will reign from Jerusalem over all the earth when He returns to restore Israel and reign for the thousand years.

In the millennial kingdom there will be no Day of atonement sacrifice, but a feast day at that former time of mourning; there will be no celebration of Pentecost, as it will be fullfilled in the first resurrection, completed as that harvest of sons of the earth for the LORD's glory at the beginning of the thousand years.

The fasts will be feasts, and the priesthood will be changed. The city will have many different features from the past, as laid out by Ezekiel, and the size of the temple is much different from any that has been built.
It goes on and on, but anyone can check it out for themselves and see that anyone who claims that Ezekiel's temple has been built is not honest in handling the Word of God.
Take the challenge: "prove all things, hold fast to that which is good".

Ezekiel’s Third Temple

Many fundamentalist and evangelical Christian groups, especially those who follow a dispensationalist theology, believe that the Jewish people will build the Third Temple shortly before, or perhaps after, "true" Christians have been raptured, and just before the introduction of a popularly accepted messiah-figure. However, according to this view, this messiah-figure would not be a true messiah but rather what Christians call the Antichrist.

However, in contrast to this dominant view, many evangelicals believe that in addition to this Third Temple, the Millennial Temple prophesied by Ezekiel will also be built. According to that view, while the so-called Antichrist will put an end to the sacrificial system during the Tribulation (Dan. 9:27, 11:31, 12:11), the arrival of the true Messiah will inaugurate the building of Ezekiel's Temple (see Ezekiel 40-44). This view holds that the Prince of Israel (the human descendant of David who will rule in the Kingdom) will provide the regular sacrifices (Ezek. 45:17), including sin offerings for himself and the people (Ezek. 45:22). In this view the Prince of Israel is parallel in many ways to the hoped-for messiah of traditional Judaism. Also, this view (like Orthodox Judaism) looks for and encourages both the rebuilding of the Third Temple and the resumption of animal sacrifices.

Most however, rejects these views of the value of any future temples. It holds that since Jesus died as the "final sacrifice" for sin, all such prophecies about a future temple and restored sacrificial system have been annulled and transformed into an illustration of spiritual realities.



I kind of wish they would go ahead and build the thing. Then when nothing happens, dispensationalism will fade. Then again, they thought the 1967 war meant that the rapture would be by the year 2000. 2000 came and went and the rapture ready folks are still on the edge of their seats.

Another scenario would be a repeat of what happened when they tried to rebuild the temple in the fourth century. Apparently, it was quite a disaster. There were tales of fire shooting up from the ground and devouring the workers.

What is not told is additionally, many Jews are against rebuilding the Temple due to the enormously hostile reaction from Muslims that would likely result even were the building to be complementary to those holy to Islam currently present on the Temple Mount site, there would be high suspicion that such a building project would ultimately end with the destruction of these and the rebuilding of the Temple on its original spot.

Any attempt to tear down and replace these Muslim shrines with a Jewish temple is probably impossible in today's political and religious climate. The very idea of doing so at any point in the future constitutes a seemingly unresolvable problem. Nonetheless, the idea of rebuilding the Temple somewhere else is unacceptable for the vast majority of Jews.

And as you pointed out there was an aborted project by the Roman emperor Julian (331-363) to allow the Jews to build a "Third Temple". There is reason to believe that Julian wanted the rebuilt "Third Temple" to be for the purpose of his own apotheosis, rather than the worship of the Jewish God.

One story of this attempted rebuilding of the Temple is found in the Ecclesiastical History written in Greek by Salamanius Hermias Sozomenus about 443-450. Sozomen was a native Palestinian and claimed to have his knowledge from eye-witnesses. He was a conservative Christian without sympathy for the Jews or for Julian.

Though the emperor hated and oppressed the Christians, he manifested benevolence and humanity towards the Jews. He wrote to the Jewish patriarchs and leaders, as well as to the people, requesting them to pray for him, and for the prosperity of the empire. In taking this step he was not actuated, I am convinced, by any respect for their religion; for he was aware that it is, so to speak, the mother of the Christian religion, and he knew that both religions rest upon the authority of the [biblical] patriarchs and the prophets; but he thought to grieve the Christians by favoring the Jews, who are their most inveterate enemies.

But perhaps he also calculated upon persuading the Jews to embrace paganism and sacrifices; for they were only acquainted with the mere letter of Scripture, and could not, like the Christians and a few of the wisest among the Hebrews, discern the hidden meaning [the allegorical meaning, through which the Christians could prove the validity of Christianity from the Old Testament].

Events proved that this was his real motive; for he sent for some of the chiefs of the race and exhorted them to return to the observance of the laws of Moses and the customs of their fathers. On their replying that because the Temple in Jerusalem was overturned, it was neither lawful nor ancestral to do this in another place than the metropolis out of which they had been cast, he gave them public money, commanded them to rebuild the Temple, and to practice the cult similar to that of their ancestors, by sacrificing after the ancient way.

[Sacrifice was permitted by Jewish law only in Jerusalem.] The Jews entered upon the undertaking, without reflecting that, according to the prediction of the holy prophets, it could not be accomplished. They sought for the most skillful artisans, collected materials, cleared the ground, and entered so earnestly upon the task, that even the women carried heaps of earth, and brought their necklaces and other female ornaments towards defraying the expense.

The emperor, the other pagans, and all the Jews, regarded every other undertaking as secondary in importance to this. Although the pagans were not well-disposed towards the Jews, yet they assisted them in this enterprise, because they reckoned upon its ultimate success, and hoped by this means to falsify the prophecies of Christ.

[Since Jesus in the New Testament had prophesied the destruction of the Temple, its rebuilding would make of him a false prophet.] Besides this motive, the Jews themselves [relying on the sympathy of Julian] were impelled by the consideration that the time had arrived for rebuilding their Temple.

When they had removed the ruins of the former building, they dug up the ground and cleared away its foundation; it is said that on the following day when they were about to lay the first foundation, a great earthquake occurred, and by the violent agitation of the earth, stones were thrown up from the depths, by which those of the Jews who were engaged in the work were wounded, as likewise those who were merely looking on.

The houses and public porticos, near the site of the Temple, in which they had diverted themselves, were suddenly thrown down; many were caught thereby, some perished immediately, others were found half dead and mutilated of hands or legs, others were injured in other parts of the body.

When God caused the earthquake to cease, the workmen who survived again returned to their task, partly because such was the edict of the emperor, and partly because they were themselves interested in the undertaking. Men often, in endeavoring to gratify their own passions, seek what is injurious to them, reject what would be truly advantageous, and are deluded by the idea that nothing is really useful except what is agreeable to them. When once led astray by this error, they are no longer able to act in a manner conducive to their own interests, or to take warning by the calamities which are visited upon them.

End quote.

The Church Father here records his belief that the Temple could not be rebuilt.

The Jews, I believe, were just in this state; for, instead of regarding this unexpected earthquake as a manifest indication that God was opposed to the re-erection of their Temple, they proceeded to recommence the work. But all parties relate that they had scarcely returned to the undertaking, when fire burst suddenly from the foundations of the Temple, and consumed several of the workmen. [J. M. Campbell in the Scottish Review, 1900, believed that an explosion of oil put an end to the work. This sounds fanciful.]

End quote.

It holds true that since Jesus died as the "final sacrifice" for sin, all such prophecies about a future temple and restored sacrificial system have been annulled and transformed into an illustration of spiritual realities. So in terms of a rebuilt temple and restored sacrificial system, that would cause God's judgment.


very different reasons.

 

[Hidden Manna]

Ezekiel's temple has not been built.
It changes the law of Moses, making the High Priest the King -and the Messiah; and the temple would not fit on the temple mount now, or any time in the past; but the Messiah will raise the temple mount at His return, and level the surrounding plains -and He will build the temple.

The temple Ezekiel received plans for has no veil to the Holy of Holies and no Ark of the covenant; but in the Holy of Holies the throne of Messiah is placed, where He will reign from Jerusalem over all the earth when He returns to restore Israel and reign for the thousand years.

Take the challenge: "prove all things, hold fast to that which is good".

yeshuasavedme, here is a copy of the version I had of Ezekiel Temple BEFORE I became a Preterist. There maybe more truth to it then your version now because it is in the spiritual realm right now. I did a very little modifation of a very few words to it after I became a Preterist. I had to scrap the book because of futuristic errors many of what you now proclaim.

What is your fellowship background that believers the way you do, is it Vineyard, Kingdom Now, Latter Rain, etc. ?

THE THREE LEVELS OF HEAVEN
By Brad Baker
This is the most interesting thing I’ve ever read in scripture in Ezek. 42:1,2 and Ezek.41:5-7. The temples design resembles the construction of Noah’s ark and both foreshadow the rapture. Anyway here is what I got and how this strengthens what I have been trying to say in the book I wrote.

Ezekiel 41

Dimensions of the Sanctuary

Measurements and Design of the Temple Area

1. Then he brought me into the sanctuary and measured the doorposts, six cubits wide on one side and six cubits wide on the other side—the width of the tabernacle. 2 The width of the entryway was ten cubits, and the side walls of the entrance were five cubits on this side and five cubits on the other side; and he measured its length, forty cubits, and its width, twenty cubits.
Ezekiel 41
7. As one went up from story to story, the side chambers became wider all around, because their supporting ledges in the wall of the temple ascended like steps; therefore the width of the structure increased as one went up from the lowest story to the highest by way of the middle one.

Ezekiel 42
5. Now the upper chambers were shorter, because the galleries took away space from them more than from the lower and middle stories of the building.
6. For they were in three stories and did not have pillars like the pillars of the courts; therefore the upper level was shortened more than the lower and middle levels from the ground up.
7.And a wall which was outside ran parallel to the chambers, at the front of the chambers, toward the outer court; its length was fifty cubits.

I see these three chambers that are built one on the bottom being smaller then the middle larger then the third chamber larger still with the middle and the top having beams on the outside so that they do not go through the temple as not only in Christ resurrection and ascension but in our being caught up also.

The small chamber would represent Jesus when He was on the earth then after He was crucified He rose on the third day. From the third day to Pentecost representing the middle chamber. From the third day to Pentecost Jesus appear in His physical body while being resurrected from the dead. Just like the middle chamber had beams connected to the earth so to Jesus appeared in His physical body.

Right after Jesus ascended into heaven after the time between the Feast of Passover and the Feast of Pentecost, “I believe that was forty days” would represent Jesus going up and into the upper top chamber. Jesus received a glorified body and within a very short period of time, God sent the Holy Spirit into the upper room and filled the believers who were there at the time. Now the top chamber also had beams to the earth to support the chamber. When the church was born on the day of Pentecost it became the physical body of Jesus Christ on the earth while Jesus has a
His own Spiritual and glorified “celestial” body in heaven.

This is how the three chambers applies to us in our own spiritual journey. When we become born again we enter into Christ as newborn babes and our life is hidden in Christ as we abide in Him. This is represented the lower and smaller chamber. The smaller chamber was totally on the earth and when we are young in the Lord we are still very earthly, carnal, or of the flesh what ever you want to call it, but we have by faith entered into the Kingdom of God and we are seated in heavenly places in Christ and our life is hidden in Christ.

As we grow in the Lord we are strengthened by the Holy Spirit we forsake worldly things and experience living as over comers in Christ as we abide in Him and His Spirit in us. This would represent entering into the middle chamber. It takes time to grow spiritually. In the old covenant the age of accountability was around twelve. Just like Jesus gave time for the churches in Revelations 2 & 3 that He rebuked, time to repent and over come. This spiritual grow is seen in:

1 John 2

Their Spiritual State
12.I write to you, little children, Because your sins are forgiven you for His name’s sake.
13.I write to you, fathers, Because you have known Him who is from the beginning. I write to you, young men, Because you have overcome the wicked one. I write to you, little children, Because you have known the Father.
14. I have written to you, fathers, Because you have known Him who is from the beginning. I have written to you, young men, Because you are strong, and the word of God abides in you, And you have overcome the wicked one.

Just like the church of Sardis had some who were worthy and walked with Jesus in white we as over-comers do also. Note we are with Him just like meeting Him in the clouds in the air. The only problem is it is still very easy to go down a flight of stairs from the mid chamber to the lower chamber and walk in the flesh as babes in the Lord.

The church of Philadelphia on the other hand enters a door that now one shut and they no more go in and out. This is a picture of entering into the top chamber and becoming a pillar of support for the glorified body of Jesus Christ that returns through the pillars to rule the nations “don’t forget the top chamber had beams that went down to the earth”. The church of Philadelphia will have people who say they are Jews but are not bow down to them, picture of bowing down to Christ and confessing Him as Lord. It’s a hard concept to receive that Jesus Christ will return through those that over-come. But what was one man manifested as God in the flesh now many world-wide have Jesus Christ manifesting Himself through those that overcame. As we grow into been like fathers who have known Him we enter into a more authoritative role in the body of Christ. In like manner as it took thirty years before a man could enter into ministry in the old covenant, it takes time to grow and mature in the Lord to the point that we no longer have any desires that would hold us back.

I can see where the Feast of Passover may relate to the lower chamber, Feast of Pentecost related to the mid chamber and the Feast of Tabernacles related to the top chamber which I believe was fulfilled in 70 AD.

 

[yeshuasavedme]

Again, Hidden Manna, you make statements that are not made by we who believe the Scriptures, and then, when you make false statements about what you say we say -totally untrue things- then you knock down your strawmen. That is not an honest way to dialogue.

We are commanded to:
2Ti 2:15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth, and to prove all things.

The millennial temple will not only have no veil, but from the temple a river of life will flow, which has never happened in the history of Israel.
The river brings life to the dead sea, and everywhere it flows, during the millennial reign: and the temple will be a type and shadow of the coming eternal heavenly city, the Holy of Holies, which is the New Jerusalem of the regenerated heavens and earth.

Ezekiel 40:
In the twenty-fifth year of our captivity, at the beginning of the year, on the tenth day of the month, in the fourteenth year after the city was captured, on the very same day the hand of the Lord was upon me; and He took me there. 2 In the visions of God He took me into the land of Israel and set me on a very high mountain;

... Declare to the house of Israel everything you see....

Chapter 43:
Afterward he brought me to the gate, [even] the gate that looketh toward the east:
And, behold, the glory of the God of Israel came from the way of the east: and his voice [was] like a noise of many waters: and the earth shined with his glory.
And [it was] according to the appearance of the vision which I saw, [even] according to the vision that I saw when I came to destroy the city: and the visions [were] like the vision that I saw by the river Chebar; and I fell upon my face.
http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/popup.pl?book=Eze&chapter=43&verse=4&version=kjvAnd the glory of the LORD came into the house by the way of the gate whose prospect [is] toward the east.
http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/popup.pl?book=Eze&chapter=43&verse=5&version=kjvSo the spirit took me up, and brought me into the inner court; and, behold, the glory of the LORD filled the house.
And I heard [him] speaking unto me out of the house; and the man stood by me.
And he said unto me, Son of man, the place of my throne, and the place of the soles of my feet, where I will dwell in the midst of the children of Israel for ever, and my holy name, shall the house of Israel no more defile, [neither] they, nor their kings, by their whoredom, nor by the carcases of their kings in their high places.

Thou son of man, shew the house to the house of Israel, that they may be ashamed of their iniquities: and let them measure the pattern.

And if they be ashamed of all that they have done, shew them the form of the house, and the fashion thereof, and the goings out thereof, and the comings in thereof, and all the forms thereof, and all the ordinances thereof, and all the forms thereof, and all the laws thereof: and write [it] in their sight, that they may keep the whole form thereof, and all the ordinances thereof, and do them.

http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/popup.pl?book=Eze&chapter=43&verse=12&version=kjvThis [is] the law of the house; Upon the top of the mountain the whole limit thereof round about [shall be] most holy. Behold, this [is] the law of the house.

http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/popup.pl?book=Eze&chapter=44&verse=1&version=kjvThen he brought me back the way of the gate of the outward sanctuary which looketh toward the east; and it [was] shut.

Then said the LORD unto me; This gate shall be shut, it shall not be opened, and no man shall enter in by it; because the LORD, the God of Israel, hath entered in by it, therefore it shall be shut.
Then brought he me the way of the north gate before the house: and I looked, and, behold, the glory of the LORD filled the house of the LORD: and I fell upon my face.
~~~~
The priests eat the offerings;
http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/popup.pl?book=Eze&chapter=44&verse=29&version=kjvThey shall eat the meat offering, and the sin offering, and the trespass offering; and
every dedicated thing in Israel shall be theirs.

And the first of all the firstfruits of all [things], and every oblation of all, of every [sort] of your oblations, shall be the priest's: ye shall also give unto the priest the first of your dough, that he may cause the blessing to rest in thine house.

Eze 47:1 Afterward he brought me again unto the door of the house; and, behold, waters issued out from under the threshold of the house eastward: for the forefront of the house [stood toward] the east, and the waters came down from under from the right side of the house, at the south [side] of the altar.
Then brought he me out of the way of the gate northward, and led me about the way without unto the utter gate by the way that looketh eastward; and, behold, there ran out waters on the right side.

And when the man that had the line in his hand went forth eastward, he measured a thousand cubits, and he brought me through the waters; the waters [were] to the ankles.
Again he measured a thousand, and brought me through the waters; the waters [were] to the knees. Again he measured a thousand, and brought me through; the waters [were] to the loins.

http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/popup.pl?book=Eze&chapter=47&verse=5&version=kjvAfterward he measured a thousand; [and it was] a river that I could not pass over: for the waters were risen, waters to swim in, a river that could not be passed over.

http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/popup.pl?book=Eze&chapter=47&verse=6&version=kjvAnd he said unto me, Son of man, hast thou seen [this]? Then he brought me, and caused me to return to the brink of the river.

http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/popup.pl?book=Eze&chapter=47&verse=7&version=kjvNow when I had returned, behold, at the bank of the river [were] very many trees on the one side and on the other.

Then said he unto me, These waters issue out toward the east country, and go down into the desert, and go into the sea: [which being] brought forth into the sea, the waters shall be healed.

And it shall come to pass, [that] every thing that liveth, which moveth, whithersoever the rivers shall come, shall live: and there shall be a very great multitude of fish, because these waters shall come thither: for they shall be healed; and every thing shall live whither the river cometh.

http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/popup.pl?book=Eze&chapter=47&verse=10&version=kjvAnd it shall come to pass, [that] the fishers shall stand upon it from Engedi even unto Eneglaim; they shall be a [place] to spread forth nets; their fish shall be according to their kinds, as the fish of the great sea, exceeding many.

And by the river upon the bank thereof, on this side and on that side, shall grow all trees for meat, whose leaf shall not fade, neither shall the fruit thereof be consumed: it shall bring forth new fruit according to his months, because their waters they issued out of the sanctuary: and the fruit thereof shall be for meat, and the leaf thereof for medicine.

 

[Hidden Manna]

Again, Hidden Manna, you make statements that are not made by we who believe the Scriptures, and then, when you make false statements about what you say we say -totally untrue things- then you knock down your strawmen. That is not an honest way to dialogue.

We are commanded to:
2Ti 2:15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth, and to prove all things.

The millennial temple will not only have no veil, but from the temple a river of life will flow, which has never happened in the history of Israel.
The river brings life to the dead sea, and everywhere it flows, during the millennial reign: and the temple will be a type and shadow of the coming eternal heavenly city, the Holy of Holies, which is the New Jerusalem of the regenerated heavens and earth.

Zechariah and the River of Life, Part 5
by Don K. Preston

"It shall be in that day that living waters shall flow out from Jerusalem; half of them toward the former sea and half of them toward the hinder sea; in summer and winter it shall be."

To the ancient Jew living in the promised land water was the image of life and blessings. Zechariah promised that when the Messiah came in judgment, verse 1, 5, "living waters" would flow from Jerusalem. It would flow to all peoples — from sea to sea. It would be an endless supply — in summer and winter.

Water conjured up images of the Garden of Eden and Man's once intimate relationship to God, Genesis 2:10.

Water also symbolized cleansing and purity. The sacrificial system of the Old Covenant had various "washings," Hebrews 9:9-14, that sanctified to the purifying of the flesh. While never effective for the cleansing of the conscience, the cleansing of these ceremonies nonetheless symbolized the purity that was necessary to approach God.

Zechariah's promise of living waters therefore carried with it a rich variety of concepts; (resurrection) life, cleansing, blessings, etc.. Zechariah was clearly not therefore, speaking of literal water.

The Fountain in Prophecy
Zechariah's prediction that God would open a fountain for the cleansing of sin is consistent with other prophets.

Joel predicted that in the "last days" consummating in the Great and Terrible Day of the Lord, Jehovah would open a fountain for cleansing. That fountain would flow "from the house of the Lord" 3:18, for the acquittal of the sins of Israel, verse 21.

Isaiah contains several Messianic prophecies that mention the flowing of abundant waters in the Kingdom. In 12:3 Isaiah foretold the time when God's people would draw waters from the well of salvation. In 31:25f the prophet said that in the kingdom "on every high mountain and on every high hill there shall be rivers and streams of water"; this would also be "in the day of great slaughter."

In Isaiah 35 the Lord promised that in the day of His coming: "waters shall burst forth in the wilderness and streams in the desert" verse 6-7. This cannot be Jesus' incarnate ministry; it refers to his coming "with a vengeance, and with the recompense of God" verse 4. Salvation and judgment would be joined, "He will come and save you" Isaiah 35:4.

Jesus said of his coming against Jerusalem: "these be the days of vengeance when all things that are written must be fulfilled" Luke 21:22.

Ezekiel 47 contains a graphic description of the River of Life. The river flows from the Temple of God at Jerusalem eastward all the way to the Dead Sea. This river is unique because "When it reaches the sea, its waters are healed. And it shall be that every living thing that moves, wherever the river goes will live...everything will live wherever the river goes" verse 8-9. The River brings the dead to life.

Zechariah 12-14 contains another reference to the fountain being opened. In chapter 12:10f Adonai foretold the time when all the tribes of the land would mourn and look on the one whom they had pierced. Jesus quotes this verse in Matthew 24:30 and says it would be fulfilled in his coming against Jerusalem.

In chapter 13:1 the prophet said "in that day" — the day of mourning — "a fountain shall be opened for the house of David and for the inhabitants of Jerusalem for sin and for uncleanness"

The day of mourning would be the time of Jesus' coming against Jerusalem in A.D. 70, Matthew 24:30. The time of mourning would be when God would open a fountain for the cleansing of the sins of Israel. Therefore Jesus' coming against Jerusalem, in A.D. 70, would be the time when the fountain for the cleansing of the sins of Israel would be opened.

Zechariah was not saying there would be no cleansing for sin prior to that Day of mourning. He was focused on the consummation of the work of the "Branch" Zechariah 6:13, who would be betrayed in the house of friends, 13:6, when they would weigh out the thirty pieces of silver, 11:12. One cannot divorce initiation from consummation or "vice versa." The work Jesus began in his ministry would be perfected at his parousia, 1 Corinthians 15:24-28; Hebrews 9:24-28.

With this caveat it is nonetheless true that the prophetic emphasis is on the judgment coming of the Lord when speaking of the Fountain for Sin. In Joel 2-3, Isaiah 31; 35, and Zechariah 12-14 the context is the same; the coming of the Lord in judgment against Israel.

Jesus and Living Waters
Jesus came to confirm the promises made to the Fathers, Romans 15:8. His promises are not new ones severed from Israel's promises. When Jesus therefore promised living waters he was promising to fulfill Joel, Isaiah, and Zechariah.

In John 4 Jesus promised the Samaritan woman: "The water that I shall give him will become in him a fountain of water springing up into everlasting life" 4:14; he promised "living water" 4:10.

Zechariah predicted the coming of living waters. Jesus offered living waters. Was the "living water" Jesus offered the woman at Sychar different than what the prophets of Old anticipated?

The Spirit and the Water of Life
At the feast of Tabernacles in Jerusalem: "On the last day, the great day of the feast, Jesus stood and cried out saying, `If a man thirsts let him come to me and drink. He who believes on me, as the scriptures has said, `out of his heart will flow rivers of living water'" John 7:37-39.

The miraculous outpouring of the Spirit was to be a "last days" work, Joel 2:28-32, to bring Israel back from the dead, Ezekiel 37:14.

In Acts 2 Israel stood before God "dead" in her sin, Romans 7:7-14; under the curse, Galatians 3:10f. The Holy Spirit appeared on the Apostles and they in turn preached Jesus and him crucified. They promised the forgiveness of sin in Jesus' name upon repentance and baptism, 2:38. They then promised that the obedient could receive the promise of the Spirit, 2:39. That day three thousand of Israel responded to the Messiah. Were they raised from the dead?

In Romans 11 Paul said the remnant had received "that for which Israel seeks" 11:7. In a word, Israel sought "resurrection"; this was the hope of Israel, Acts 24-26. Further, Paul said that while Israel had not yet attained to her hope and the remnant had, when Israel would turn this would be "life from the dead" 11:15. Biological death and life is clearly not the focus here. It is life and fellowship with God.

Paul spoke of this miraculous work of the Spirit as "the Earnest (arrabon) of the inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession" Ephesians 1:13-14. The miraculous mission of the Spirit was the Earnest of resurrection life, 2 Corinthians 5:5.

One cannot divorce the ministry of the Spirit from Israel's last days resurrection hope. Nor can one protract the miraculous ministry beyond that time of fulfillment. The Spirit's miraculous ministry was limited to the last days. The life resulting from the Spirit's work would flow forever.

Jesus and the Water of Life
Does the believer in Christ today have the Water of Life that Jesus promised in John 4? If not the Old Covenant promises stand unfulfilled; and this means the Old Covenant stands as valid today, Matthew 5:17-18.

If we do not have the Water of Life today Israel remains God's chosen people and the object of his promises of life. God's promise of the River of Life was to Israel, and "the gifts and calling of God are irrevocable" Romans 11:29. God could not cut off Israel without fulfilling his promises to her.

If we do not have the Water of Life there is no resurrection from sin death today. Jesus, in John 5:24-25, said those believing in him have "everlasting life" and have "passed from death into life." Notice the correlation between Jesus' "water" that gives eternal life and this resurrection to everlasting life.

If we do not have the Water of Life today the Spirit's miraculous ministry is unfulfilled. If eternal life is the possession of the believer the Spirit has fulfilled his miraculous mission and those gifts have ceased.

Most believers would assert in the strongest terms that we do indeed enjoy the Water of Life in Christ today. As Joe Musselwhite has shown in an article in the "Presence," the (true) claim that the Water of Life is a present reality has tremendous eschatological implications.

Israel's Hope and the River of Life
In the Old Covenant, the River of Life flows from Israel's judgment, Isaiah 35; Joel 3; Zechariah 14:1-8. What relationship would the fall of Rome, per the amillennial view of Babylon and Revelation, have to the River of Life? None. What Old Testament prophecy associated the opening of the River of Life with the fall of Roman Catholicism? None. What connection would the Eastern European Common Market have with the River of Life? None.

The River would flow from the fulfillment of Israel's promises. John said Revelation was the anticipation of what the prophets had foretold, and the time of fulfillment was "at hand" Revelation 22:6-8. Any attempt to remove the River of Life from the fulfillment of Israel's promises is improper.

Furthermore, all the prophets place the opening of the fountain in the context of the Lord's coming against Jerusalem, Zechariah 14:8 — "in that day." The fountain is for the cleansing of sin. These facts completely refute the claim that the "redemption" associated with the fall of Jerusalem, Luke 21:28, was physical deliverance. This also negates the idea that the fall of Jerusalem was strictly localized in meaning.

Whence Comes the Flow?
If, as I believe, the Water of Life is truly available to believers today, from whence does it flow? This may seem like a facetious question at first but it is significant.

In the Old Covenant prophecies the River of Life would flow from Jerusalem, Zechariah 14:8, from the Temple, Ezekiel 47, the house of the Lord, Joel 3:18. The River of Life would flow from the New Jerusalem.

In Revelation John depicts the destruction of Babylon, the Old Jerusalem. In the "New Jerusalem" that would follow, Jesus and the Father sit on the throne, 22:3. From that Throne flows the River of Life, 22:1-2. The River of Life would flow to the nations after, and as a result of, the coming of the Lord, 18-19; the Resurrection, 20:10f; the destruction of heaven and earth, 21:1; the fall of Babylon, 18-19.

If the River of Life is available to the believer today Babylon has fallen; heaven and earth has passed away; the Resurrection has occurred at the Parousia of the Lord. Conversely, if these things have not occurred we have no Water of Life today. There is no salvation. There is no satisfaction for those who "hunger and thirst after righteousness" Matthew 5:6.

The River and Today
At the close of his Apocalypse the Lord caused these wonderful words to be penned: "The Spirit and the Bride say 'Come!' And let him who hears say 'Come!' And let him who thirsts come. And let whoever desires, let him take of the water of life freely."

Must we wait who knows how much longer, per all futurist views of eschatology, to truly drink from the River of Life? Or is that invitation truly applicable today? I firmly and gladly believe so. The atoning fountain was opened at the Cross, guaranteed by the Spirit, and perfected at the parousia, Hebrews 9:24-28. Christ is on the Throne and the River flowing from it is pure, sweet, satisfying and abundant — open to all. Let him who is athirst come! There is no more waiting.

 

[yeshuasavedme]

Preterism is false teaching and twisted teaching that denies the Scriptures of truth.

The river that flows from the temple that Messiah builds to place His throne of glory in, to reign over His kingdom, is described in Ezekiel 47: and the place names of where the river comes and where the fishermen throw their nets in Israel are named -they cannot be spiritualized away, just as the twelve tribes borders' in the covenant land cannot be preterized away -though preterists deny the Scriptures of truth, His kingdom shall 'come to this earth' for the Sabbath Rest of the thousand years, before the passing away of the heavens and the earth and the regenerating of the elements into the New Heavens and the New earth: in which regenerated new born heavens and earth no seed of Adam shall have any part, for circumcision is the sign of the cutting off from the inheritance of the kingdom in the eighth day, which is that day of the New beginning, yet to come -and in which regenerated earth there will be no more sea -but in the millennium, the sea will exist, called the great sea in chapter 47, being the Mediterranean.

After the temple and the river are described, the borders of the twelve tribes of Israel for the millennial reign are described.
Not only does YHWH describe all the temple that Messiah will build, but He describes the land of Israel and the borders of each tribe in Jacob=Israel, after the flesh, natural Israel, that is, who will come into the covenant that they were promised first, after the Gentile Church is taken, as sons of God, regenerated in body, off this present earth in the first harvest, which is shadowed and typed in the feast celebrated by Pentecost; and they, natural ISrael on this earth, will be restored as His kingdom for that thousand year reign of peace on this earth, before it is dissolved and regenerated.

Ezekiel 47:

The Healing Waters and Trees
47Then he brought me back to the door of the temple; and there was water, flowing from under the threshold of the temple toward the east, for the front of the temple faced east; the water was flowing from under the right side of the temple, south of the altar.
2 He brought me out by way of the north gate, and led me around on the outside to the outer gateway that faces east; and there was water, running out on the right side.
3 And when the man went out to the east with the line in his hand, he measured one thousand cubits, and he brought me through the waters; the water came up to my ankles.
4 Again he measured one thousand and brought me through the waters; the water came up to my knees. Again he measured one thousand and brought me through; the water came up to my waist.
5 Again he measured one thousand, and it was a river that I could not cross; for the water was too deep, water in which one must swim, a river that could not be crossed. [an oracle of salvation made available to all in Adam, offered through the Spirit of Christ, when He came to bring the Salvation of God to all in Adam, is represented in the oracle of the fifth thousand cubits, when the Spirit of God -the Spirit of Christ, was poured out upon all flesh -whosoever will- because of the cleansing and adoption of our being through the blood of sprinkling at the beginning of the fifth "day' of thousands by the "Lamb slain from the foundation of the world"].

6 He said to me, "Son of man, have you seen this?" Then he brought me and returned me to the bank of the river.
('have "you" "seen"?'-I see! -John 4:14; But whosoever drinketh of the water that I shall give him shall never thirst; but the water [a) of water in rivers, in fountains, in pools] that I shall give him shall be in him a well of water springing up [an artesian well, typed as an oracle by that river that comes from the temple] into everlasting life).

7 When I returned, there, along the bank of the river, were very many trees on one side and the other.
8 Then he said to me: "This water flows toward the eastern region, goes down into the valley, and enters the sea. When it reaches the sea, its waters are healed.
9 And it shall be that every living thing that moves, wherever the rivers go, will live. There will be a very great multitude of fish, because these waters go there; for they will be healed, and everything will live wherever the river goes. 10 It shall be that fishermen will stand by it from En Gedi to En Eglaim; they will be places for spreading their nets. Their fish will be of the same kinds as the fish of the Great Sea [the Mediterranean]exceedingly many.
11 But its swamps and marshes will not be healed; they will be given over to salt.
12 Along the bank of the river, on this side and that, will grow all kinds of trees used for food; their leaves will not wither, and their fruit will not fail. They will bear fruit every month, because their water flows from the sanctuary. Their fruit will be for food, and their leaves for medicine."
Borders of the Land"
~~~~~~~~~~
Real places in the land of Israel describe the borders allotted to the twelve tribes of Jacob, natural "Israel", in the millennium.
(cf. Num. 34:1-12)
"13 Thus says the Lord God: "These are the borders by which you shall divide the land as an inheritance among the twelve tribes of Israel. Joseph shall have two portions.
14 You shall inherit it equally with one another; for I raised My hand in an oath to give it to your fathers, and this land shall fall to you as your inheritance.

15 "This shall be the border of the land on the north: from the Great Sea, [the Mediterranean] by the road to Hethlon, as one goes to Zedad,
16 Hamath, Berothah, Sibraim (which is between the border of Damascus and the border of Hamath), to Hazar Hatticon (which is on the border of Hauran). 17 Thus the boundary shall be from the Sea to Hazar Enan, the border of Damascus; and as for the north, northward, it is the border of Hamath. This is the north side.
18 "On the east side you shall mark out the border from between Hauran and Damascus, and between Gilead and the land of Israel, along the Jordan, and along the eastern side of the sea. This is the east side.
19 "The south side, toward the *South, shall be from Tamar to the waters of Meribah by Kadesh, along the brook to the Great Sea. This is the south side, toward the South.
20 "The west side shall be the Great Sea [the Mediterranean], from the southern boundary until one comes to a point opposite Hamath. This is the west side.
21 "Thus you shall divide this land among yourselves according to the tribes of Israel.
22 It shall be that you will divide it by lot as an inheritance for yourselves, and for the strangers who dwell among you and who bear children among you. They shall be to you as native-born among the children of Israel; they shall have an inheritance with you among the tribes of Israel.
23 And it shall be that in whatever tribe the stranger dwells, there you shall give him his inheritance," says the Lord God."
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

The types and shadows of the eternal truths are in the oracles given only to the nation of Israel, the namesake of YHWH of hosts in human flesh: "Israel"; and if one presumes to speak for God then they must speak according to the oracles of God, and if one does not speak according to the great things revealed in His law, by the oracles, then there is no light in them.

 

[Hidden Manna]

Preterism is false teaching and twisted teaching that denies the Scriptures of truth.

The river that flows from the temple that Messiah builds to place His throne of glory in, to reign over His kingdom, is described in Ezekiel 47: and the place names of where the river comes and where the fishermen throw their nets in Israel are named -they cannot be spiritualized away, just as the twelve tribes borders' in the covenant land cannot be preterized away -though preterists deny the Scriptures of truth, His kingdom shall 'come to this earth' for the Sabbath Rest of the thousand years, before the passing away of the heavens and the earth and the regenerating of the elements into the New Heavens and the New earth: in which regenerated new born heavens and earth no seed of Adam shall have any part, for circumcision is the sign of the cutting off from the inheritance of the kingdom in the eighth day, which is that day of the New beginning, yet to come -and in which regenerated earth there will be no more sea -but in the millennium, the sea will exist, called the great sea in chapter 47, being the Mediterranean.

After the temple and the river are described, the borders of the twelve tribes of Israel for the millennial reign are described.
Not only does YHWH describe all the temple that Messiah will build, but He describes the land of Israel and the borders of each tribe in Jacob=Israel, after the flesh, natural Israel, that is, who will come into the covenant that they were promised first, after the Gentile Church is taken, as sons of God, regenerated in body, off this present earth in the first harvest, which is shadowed and typed in the feast celebrated by Pentecost; and they, natural ISrael on this earth, will be restored as His kingdom for that thousand year reign of peace on this earth, before it is dissolved and regenerated.

Very good yeshuasavedme, and I guess that Preterism is false just because you say so. I'm sure a child could understand the things you go on and on about in your futuristic fantasy.

I wish you would sit back and read just one of your posts though the eyes of someone else tring to make sense of what your trying to say. You speak in types and shadows with your own 100% correct intepretation according to YOU that think it means then condemn what Preterist say as if you are the know it all. Someday you will know it all because God will reveal it all to YOU.

The sea
Here is part of an article by Ward Fenely on the meaning of earth, heaven, the sea in the scriptures.

As far as Revelation 21 is concerned, the question may be raised: What about the fact that the passage says there was no more sea? First, I think we should realize how the Bible uses sea. Of course John drew many of his metaphors and apocalyptic language from the rest of the Bible. It would seem inconsistent to suddenly literalize the first verse of Revelation 21. Consider these uses of sea and those to whom it refers:

Isaiah 60:1-5 Arise, shine; for thy light is come, and the glory of the LORD is risen upon thee. {2} For, behold, the darkness shall cover the earth, and gross darkness the people: but the LORD shall arise upon thee, and his glory shall be seen upon thee. {3} And the Gentiles shall come to thy light, and kings to the brightness of thy rising. {4} Lift up thine eyes round about, and see: all they gather themselves together, they come to thee: thy sons shall come from far, and thy daughters shall be nursed at thy side. {5} Then thou shalt see, and flow together, and thine heart shall fear, and be enlarged; because the abundance of the sea shall be converted unto thee, the forces of the Gentiles shall come unto thee.

Sea here is obviously referring to the Gentiles. This passage speaks of a uniting of Gentiles and Israelites. This is remarkably similar to Ephesians 2:

Ephesians 2:11-19 Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands; {12} That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world: {13} But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ. {14} For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us; {15} Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace; {16} And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby: {17} And came and preached peace to you which were afar off, and to them that were nigh. {18} For through him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father. {19} Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God;

The Psalmist speaks of the prophecy that God would gather the Israelites that were scattered among the nations or the sea:

Psalms 68:22 The Lord said, I will bring again from Bashan, I will bring my people again from the depths of the sea:

The Psalmist also makes a distinction between the sea versus those upon the earth:

Psalms 65:5 By terrible things in righteousness wilt thou answer us, O God of our salvation; who art the confidence of all the ends of the earth, and of them that are afar off upon the sea:

It is interesting here how the Psalmist describes those upon the sea as “afar off.” That is how Paul describes the Gentiles in Ephesians 2:

Ephesians 2:13 But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.

Even Ezekiel prophesies of the time when the living waters would flow to the Gentiles:

Ezekiel 48:8-10 And by the border of Judah, from the east side unto the west side, shall be the offering which ye shall offer of five and twenty thousand reeds in breadth, and in length as one of the other parts, from the east side unto the west side: and the sanctuary shall be in the midst of it. {9} The oblation that ye shall offer unto the LORD shall be of five and twenty thousand in length, and of ten thousand in breadth. {10} And for them, even for the priests, shall be this holy oblation; toward the north five and twenty thousand in length, and toward the west ten thousand in breadth, and toward the east ten thousand in breadth, and toward the south five and twenty thousand in length: and the sanctuary of the LORD shall be in the midst thereof.

Daniel describes the four beasts (Babylon, Greece, Medo-Persia, and Rome) as the beasts of the sea:

Daniel 7:3 And four great beasts came up from the sea, diverse one from another.

Zephaniah pronounces a woe against the nations:

Zephaniah 2:5 Woe unto the inhabitants of the sea coast, the nation of the Cherethites! the word of the LORD is against you; O Canaan, the land of the Philistines, I will even destroy thee, that there shall be no inhabitant.

Of course Zechariah predicts the reign of Messiah to cover the world:

Zechariah 9:9-10 Rejoice greatly, O daughter of Zion; shout, O daughter of Jerusalem: behold, thy King cometh unto thee: he is just, and having salvation; lowly, and riding upon an ass, and upon a colt the foal of an ass. {10} And I will cut off the chariot from Ephraim, and the horse from Jerusalem, and the battle bow shall be cut off: and he shall speak peace unto the heathen: and his dominion shall be from sea even to sea, and from the river even to the ends of the earth.

Isaiah says:
Isaiah 24:14 They shall lift up their voice, they shall sing for the majesty of the LORD, they shall cry aloud from the sea.

Israel was scattered among the nations, her enemies that were described by the prophets as the sea or the seas. Throughout her physical existence Israel was plagued by the seas, particularly after being taken captive into Babylon. Israel began to trust in the nations for her protection rather than God. She trusted in the very enemies that she hated. There was always division between her and the nations, yet so often she feared the power of the nations to take her into captivity and destroy her.

In Revelation Israel (i.e. Jerusalem) was that great harlot who trusted nations rather than God. She forsook her Husband. The Bible describes Israel as the harlot sitting upon many waters. These waters were the seas or the nations in whom she trusted:
Revelation 17:1 And there came one of the seven angels which had the seven vials, and talked with me, saying unto me, Come hither; I will show unto thee the judgment of the great harlot that sitteth upon many waters:

Revelation 17:15 And he saith unto me, The waters which thou sawest, where the harlot sitteth, are peoples, and multitudes, and nations, and tongues.

Once we are able to see the division that existed between Israel and the nations and her constant fear of being destroyed by the nations, then we will be able to appreciate the fact that God predicted a time when the Gentiles would come to believe in the God of Israel and that as Isaiah predicted, they would flow together:

Isaiah 60:4-5 Lift up thine eyes round about, and see: all they gather themselves together, they come to thee: thy sons shall come from far, and thy daughters shall be nursed at thy side. {5} Then thou shalt see, and flow together, and thine heart shall fear, and be enlarged; because the abundance of the sea shall be converted unto thee, the forces of the Gentiles shall come unto thee.

According to Paul, there would be no more distinction between Israel and the nations:

Colossians 3:10-11 And have put on the new man, which is renewed in knowledge after the image of him that created him: {11} Where there is neither Greek nor Jew, circumcision nor uncircumcision, Barbarian, Scythian, bond nor free: but Christ is all, and in all.

Galatians 3:28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.

Because circumcision is that of the heart through faith in Jesus Christ, the true citizens of the heavenly Jerusalem were all one through this same faith. The Jew is one which is Jewish inwardly:

Romans 2:28-29 For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh: {29} But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.

Israel has always stood for the nation that rules as God, hence her name. It was predicted that this heavenly Jerusalem would be the worship center for the nations:

Jeremiah 3:17 At that time they shall call Jerusalem the throne of the LORD; and all the nations shall be gathered unto it, to the name of the LORD, to Jerusalem: neither shall they walk any more after the imagination of their evil heart.

The citizens of this nation would all be one in Christ Jesus. Indeed, they would all rule as God-they would be the Israel of God. In this land there would be no more Gentiles:

Zechariah 14:21 Yea, every pot in Jerusalem and in Judah shall be holiness unto the LORD of hosts: and all they that sacrifice shall come and take of them, and seethe therein: and in that day there shall be no more the Canaanite in the house of the LORD of hosts.

There would be no more strangers or Gentiles in this land. There would be no more sea. It would be a New Heaven and a New Earth wherein would dwell righteousness. The union would be those in Christ Jesus.

 

[yeshuasavedme]

YHWH gave the oracles and the Holy Spirit has interpreted them with Scripture, itself, and He has done so by no man's outside additions to anything that He has said, by taking away or adding to anything that God has laid out in the oracles.

It's all in the book, and since Jesus came and died, and rose and gave us His Spirit, He has opened it plainly to anyone who seeks from the Word the meaning of the Word, itself.

Hbr 5:12 For when for the time ye ought to be teachers, ye have need that one teach you again which [be] the first principles of the oracles of God; and are become such as have need of milk, and not of strong meat.


Adam heard the promise of the deliverance (of the kingdom that death and corruption entered, when the 'firstborn' of it, Adam, died as son of God), by the Seed of the woman, in Genesis 3:15;

Abraham, the 'Father' of the 'faith', was the first to receive the 'promise' of the Spirit, when YHWH changed his name from Abram to Abra- H -am.

Gen 17:5 Neither shall thy name any more be called Abram, but thy name shall be Abraham; for a father of many nations have I made thee. ...
Gen 17:7 And I will establish my covenant between me and thee and thy seed after thee in their generations for an everlasting covenant, to be a God unto thee, and to thy seed after thee.

Gal 3:14 That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.

Abraham received the sign of circumcision, which is the sign of all seed, in Adam, being cut off completely, in the eighth day of creation, which is the 'eighth day' of creation.


Gen 17:10 This [is] my covenant, which ye shall keep, between me and you and thy seed after thee; Every man child among you shall be circumcised.

Gen 17:12 And he that is eight days old shall be circumcised among you, every man child in your generations, he that is born in the house, or bought with money of any stranger, which [is] not of thy seed.

Gen 17:13 He that is born in thy house, and he that is bought with thy money, must needs be circumcised: and my covenant shall be in your flesh for an everlasting covenant.

Abraham, as a prophet of YHWH, saw the Day of Yeshua, the only begotten son of the Living God, as the Lamb of God sacrificed to cleanse our being and end the first death of separation in Adam, that we all were born in, as seed of Adam, when he was given the Day of Yeshua as a living oracle, to act out, in Genesis 22.

Jhn 8:56 Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day: and he saw [it], and was glad.

From Psalm 118:
"The stone which the builders rejected
Has become the chief cornerstone.
23 This was the Lord's doing;
It is marvelous in our eyes.
24 This is the day the Lord has made;
We will rejoice and be glad in it.


25 Save now, I pray, O Lord;
O Lord, I pray, send now prosperity.
26 Blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord!
We have blessed you from the house of the Lord.
27 God is the Lord,
And He has given us light;
Bind the sacrifice with cords to the horns of the altar.
28 You are my God, and I will praise You;
You are my God, I will exalt You."

Abraham named Jerusalem -Mount Moriah-, "YHWH YIREH", "YHWH will be seen" -on this mount- when He was given the oracle of the Day of Jesus as the only begotten Son of God, as the Lamb of God bound to the altar as our salvation.

then his son Isaac, then Jacob, received the blessing of firstborn, that was carried from Adam through Seth to Noah -to Shem; then Jacob, who had the blessing, was given the sign of the adoption to come in 'the New Man', the Firstborn 'who will never leave us orphans', as our first father had to, and as all who represented his position have had to do since death and corruption entered the kingdom, until the New Man came.

YHWH of hosts, Himself, in the second Person, wrestled with Jacob as the Messenger of YHWH and gave Jacob His New Man, to come in flesh, name: 'Israel'.

All these things were signs, symbols, types, and shadows, of the Salvation that was to come, for all 'in Adam' (whosoever will 'willingly' believe); and the millenniums passed.

The water, the Spirit, that was to be poured out on all flesh, which is that Spirit of Life in the New Man's adoption, was planned and prepared to come forth in the fullness of time, from the foundation of the world; and that river flowing from the temple in the millennial reign will be an oracle about that, for instructing the nations during the millennial Sabbath Rest that is coming to this earth.

In the fifth millennium, the beginning of the fifth 'day' of earth's week of days of a thousand years, the first death was ended for all in Adam -for whosoever will- when that river became a deep river for all to partake of, as the sign shows, in the millennial temple and the river that shall flow from it to give life wherever it flows.

When YHWH raised up Moses to deliver Israel from the slavery and bondage to Egypt, The deliverance was a sign, an oracle, for all in Adam, of the greater deliverance that was to come in the Lamb that was slain from the foundation of the world, and deliverance from the death angel by the blood of the Lamb before they even were made a nation, with His spirit dwelling with them, was a great oracle of the salvation of all who will put their trust in the blood of the Lamb of God to be under the protection of the sign of His blood on the doorposts of their hearts when the death angel 'passes by'.

And the oracles go on, to the goal of the regenerated bodies, which are represented by the Ark of the Covenant, that wood box, plated with gold and crowned with solid gold and covered by the solid gold Mercy Seat, which is representing the New Man body of the YHWH of hosts, second Person, come in that New Man flesh as our covering which received the blood of sprinkling that was accepted once, for all, when He hung upon the cross and finished the work for our cleansing and adoption in His New Creation human being flesh.

But to get into the Holy of Holies, we who are cleansed and adopted -made priests in Him, the Firstborn- must put on the holy garments, which were represented in the garments that the Levitical priests had to put on to enter the Presence and to serve in the temple, and which they had to remove to go out, and leave in the temple.

Those garments represent our adoption bodies, regenerated, which we will 'put on' when He calls us to our consecration as priests in the New Man image, at the time He comes to call us to the door of meeting, to come on in and remain for the week of consecration.

The oracles go on -but they are given to the nation of Israel, only, and to no other people, and they continue speaking -but I must stop this for now.

 

[yeshuasavedme]

More, on the oracles given to the Jews, and on speaking as they speak, in the manner of them, with the message that they teach:

In the living oracles given to the Jews, the 'end of the law', that is, ‘the goal of the law‘, is that 'New Man in Christ', the actual 'Ark of the Covenant', itself, which represents all we, who are under the blood, when we receive our regenerated, immortal bodies, which are represented by the gold plated wooden (of earth) box, crowned with the crown of life, represented by the solid gold crown, and crowned with the solid gold Mercy Seat, which received the blood of sprinkling once, for all in Adam - for those who would receive Him, while His body was bound to the altar of sacrifice, the cross.

We have not yet arrived at that goal; but we have received the Spirit that Abraham was promised, and by that same Spirit, we shall be quickened, made alive, immortal, at the resurrection and regeneration of all the dead and alive, in Christ, which is yet to come; and which is the first resurrection represented by the feast of Pentecost, of which Jesus Christ’s resurrection from the dead (along with those whom He raised from their graves, bodily, at His resurrection, as part of earth’s first fruits offering of the first harvest), is the first of first fruits of; and He ascended and led captivity captive with that first of first fruits offering, which He offered before the Presence of the Father in the heavenly temple, as the Firstborn and Living High Priest of earth, on that first, first day of the week after His passion, according to the oracle given in the law of Moses.

That first harvest is guaranteed by those First fruits that are gathered, and offered on high; and that first harvest will be completed at the gathering together to Himself, in their regenerated bodies, all the dead in Christ and the living, at the time that He comes with the dead in Christ in the air to raise their bodiesm, regenerated, from the elements of this creation, and changes our bodies, to the 'gold plated version', who remain alive at that same time.

The 'gold plated bodies' (regenerated)will then be glorified with the glory of the Presence of the Father, which is represented by the gold crown of life that we will be crowned with, at that time; and the Ark of the Covenant will then be completed, with those who are regenerated and crowned at that time. -and the Holy of Holies will go on being built until the end of the thousand years, which is still the house of the New Man that the LORD is building, and which is that city that shall come down from God out of heaven to the regenerated earth after the thousand years is ended and the elements of the heavens and the earth are regenerated.

Then the law will be fulfilled! -every oracle will be finished and there will be no more temple, but God and the Lamb; for His house will be finished that the oracles and the promises were, and are, all about, which were committed only to Israel, His nation that is His namesake, as the oracles of all the message of the redemption of the dead, lost, 'house' of Adam as the redeemed house of YHWH.

I’ve just scratched the bare surface in these last two posts, but if anyone will speak for God, then he must speak in the manner of the oracles, and learn the first principles of them, which speak only of our redemption in the New Man, and our inheritance as kings and priests in Him, the Firstborn (taking Adam’s place, by redemption of the kingdom lost); and the goal will not be reached until we receive our “holy garments” to be priests in His temple in, forever; and the type and shadows of when we receive the resurrection body is in Leviticus 8, and when the call to assemble at the door of meeting -the true temple in heaven- comes, by the sounding of the two trumpets, twice, as Numbers 10:1-7 teaches of (in the oracles of the trumpets), then we who are born from above shall be told to enter in, and shut our doors behind us, as Isaiah 26:19-21 speaks of; and when we enter in, in our holy garments (the regenerated bodies made in His image), then we are ‘harvested’ from this earth, as the sons, which Pentecost speaks of: and we shall remain in the temple, behind closed doors, celebrating our consecration -in the holy garments and crowned with the crown of life- with the Presence of glory, for a week; while, down on earth, the great tribulation goes on; which we, the regenerated in immortal body, saints, will not be a part of.
-nor will we dwell in houses of clay on this present earth for the thousand years, but will reign with Him over this earth from the heavenly realm in our immortal bodies, and many of us will be seated on thrones (who are counted worthy), and we will reign over this earth with Him for that thousand years, from that heavenly realm.

Hbr 11:8 By faith Abraham, when he was called to go out into a place which he should after receive for an inheritance, obeyed; and he went out, not knowing whither he went.

Abraham believed God, and obeyed Him, though he didn’t understand where he was going, and we who believe God have a city whose builder and maker is God, but now, we have been told where we are going, through the oracles, and there is no reason for darkness anymore. The way we know, and we will go there by the blood of the New Man‘s once for all covering atonement.

Jhn 14:4 And whither I go ye know, and the way ye know.

Isa 49:6 And he said, It is a light thing that thou shouldest be my servant to raise up the tribes of Jacob, and to restore the preserved of Israel: I will also give thee for a light to the Gentiles, that thou mayest be my salvation unto the end of the earth.

Isa 9:2 The people that walked in darkness have seen a great light: they that dwell in the land of the shadow of death, upon them hath the light shined.

The city that God is building, of the living stones, did not begin to be built until the chief foundation Stone was laid in the womb of the virgin on the eve of the 24th day of the ninth month, which was (at the time of his New Man body’s preparation in that womb as the foundation Stone of the New House for the Father’s dwelling place), the day before Chanukah began, the festival celebrating the miracle of the light burning for the eight days; which itself, is an oracle of the New Man, whose ‘light’ does not go out, as Adam’s does.

The city is being built upon the foundation of the Apostles and prophets, and is built of we, who are the living stones being prepared outside the city, cut out, chiseled, hammered, and squared, to be fitted into place at that Great Day, when the stones are all finished and the city is built without any preparation done at the site of assembly.

"In My Father’s house are many dwelling places, I go [to the cross] to ‘prepare you’ [as a New Man] 'a place”'.

The stones are not all cut out of the quarry, that is, they have not all been born, who are yet to be, in Adam, the earthly quarry, and they have not all been born from above, as the living stones being prepared for the Father’s house.

1Ki 6:7 And the house, when it was in building, was built of stone made ready before it was brought thither: so that there was neither hammer nor axe [nor] any tool of iron heard in the house, while it was in building.

Rev 21:2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.

 

[yeshuasavedme]

More, on the oracles given to the Jews, and on speaking as they speak, in the manner of them, with the message that they teach:

In the living oracles given to the Jews, the 'end of the law', that is, ‘the goal of the law‘, is that 'New Man in Christ', the actual 'Ark of the Covenant', itself, which represents all we, who are under the blood, when we receive our regenerated, immortal bodies, which are represented by the gold plated wooden (of earth) box, crowned with the crown of life, represented by the solid gold crown, and crowned with the solid gold Mercy Seat, which received the blood of sprinkling once, for all in Adam - for those who would receive Him, while His body was bound to the altar of sacrifice, the cross.

We have not yet arrived at that goal; but we have received the Spirit that Abraham was promised, and by that same Spirit, we shall be quickened, made alive, immortal, at the resurrection and regeneration of all the dead and alive, in Christ, which is yet to come; and which is the first resurrection represented by the feast of Pentecost, of which Jesus Christ’s resurrection from the dead (along with those whom He raised from their graves, bodily, at His resurrection, as part of earth’s first fruits offering of the first harvest), is the first of first fruits of; and He ascended and led captivity captive with that first of first fruits offering, which He offered before the Presence of the Father in the heavenly temple, as the Firstborn and Living High Priest of earth, on that first, first day of the week after His passion, according to the oracle given in the law of Moses.

That first harvest is guaranteed by those First fruits that are gathered, and offered on high; and that first harvest will be completed at the gathering together to Himself, in their regenerated bodies, all the dead in Christ and the living, at the time that He comes with the dead in Christ in the air to raise their bodiesm, regenerated, from the elements of this creation, and changes our bodies, to the 'gold plated version', who remain alive at that same time.

The 'gold plated bodies' (regenerated)will then be glorified with the glory of the Presence of the Father, which is represented by the gold crown of life that we will be crowned with, at that time; and the Ark of the Covenant will then be completed, with those who are regenerated and crowned at that time. -and the Holy of Holies will go on being built until the end of the thousand years, which is still the house of the New Man that the LORD is building, and which is that city that shall come down from God out of heaven to the regenerated earth after the thousand years is ended and the elements of the heavens and the earth are regenerated.

Then the law will be fulfilled! -every oracle will be finished and there will be no more temple, but God and the Lamb; for His house will be finished that the oracles and the promises were, and are, all about, which were committed only to Israel, His nation that is His namesake, as the oracles of all the message of the redemption of the dead, lost, 'house' of Adam as the redeemed house of YHWH.

I’ve just scratched the bare surface in these last two posts, but if anyone will speak for God, then he must speak in the manner of the oracles, and learn the first principles of them, which speak only of our redemption in the New Man, and our inheritance as kings and priests in Him, the Firstborn (taking Adam’s place, by redemption of the kingdom lost); and the goal will not be reached until we receive our “holy garments” to be priests in His temple in, forever; and the type and shadows of when we receive the resurrection body is in Leviticus 8, and when the call to assemble at the door of meeting -the true temple in heaven- comes, by the sounding of the two trumpets, twice, as Numbers 10:1-7 teaches of (in the oracles of the trumpets), then we who are born from above shall be told to enter in, and shut our doors behind us, as Isaiah 26:19-21 speaks of; and when we enter in, in our holy garments (the regenerated bodies made in His image), then we are ‘harvested’ from this earth, as the sons, which Pentecost speaks of: and we shall remain in the temple, behind closed doors, celebrating our consecration -in the holy garments and crowned with the crown of life- with the Presence of glory, for a week; while, down on earth, the great tribulation goes on; which we, the regenerated in immortal body, saints, will not be a part of.
-nor will we dwell in houses of clay on this present earth for the thousand years, but will reign with Him over this earth from the heavenly realm in our immortal bodies, and many of us will be seated on thrones (who are counted worthy), and we will reign over this earth with Him for that thousand years, from that heavenly realm.

Hbr 11:8 By faith Abraham, when he was called to go out into a place which he should after receive for an inheritance, obeyed; and he went out, not knowing whither he went.

Abraham believed God, and obeyed Him, though he didn’t understand where he was going, and we who believe God have a city whose builder and maker is God, but now, we have been told where we are going, through the oracles, and there is no reason for darkness anymore. The way we know, and we will go there by the blood of the New Man‘s once for all covering atonement.

Jhn 14:4 And whither I go ye know, and the way ye know.

Isa 49:6 And he said, It is a light thing that thou shouldest be my servant to raise up the tribes of Jacob, and to restore the preserved of Israel: I will also give thee for a light to the Gentiles, that thou mayest be my salvation unto the end of the earth.

Isa 9:2 The people that walked in darkness have seen a great light: they that dwell in the land of the shadow of death, upon them hath the light shined.

The city that God is building, of the living stones, did not begin to be built until the chief foundation Stone was laid in the womb of the virgin on the eve of the 24th day of the ninth month, which was (at the time of his New Man body’s preparation in that womb as the foundation Stone of the New House for the Father’s dwelling place), the day before Chanukah began, the festival celebrating the miracle of the light burning for the eight days; which itself, is an oracle of the New Man, whose ‘light’ does not go out, as Adam’s does.

The city is being built upon the foundation of the Apostles and prophets, and is built of we, who are the living stones being prepared outside the city, cut out, chiseled, hammered, and squared, to be fitted into place at that Great Day, when the stones are all finished and the city is built without any preparation done at the site of assembly.

"In My Father’s house are many dwelling places, I go [to the cross] to ‘prepare you’ [as a New Man] 'a place”'.

The stones are not all cut out of the quarry, that is, they have not all been born, who are yet to be, in Adam, the earthly quarry, and they have not all been born from above, as the living stones being prepared for the Father’s house.

1Ki 6:7 And the house, when it was in building, was built of stone made ready before it was brought thither: so that there was neither hammer nor axe [nor] any tool of iron heard in the house, while it was in building.

Rev 21:2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.

More, on the oracles given to the Jews.
We are all -those of us who are born of the Spirit of adoption -in the Firstborn- taken to our Father's 'house' =the heavenly temple, and hidden, when the wrath =His indignation, passes over this earth.

The doors are shut about us and we are hidden in Father's house while the inhabitants of the world's hearts are faint with fear for all the things that come upon all the inhabitants of the earth.

And, to reply to this;

Very good yeshuasavedme, and I guess that Preterism is false just because you say so. I'm sure a child could understand the things you go on and on about in your futuristic fantasy.

In fact, that's exactly who YHWH says will understand the message;

Isaiah 28:9
"Whom will he teach knowledge?
And whom will he make to understand the message?
Those just weaned from milk (the question mark added by translators, here and in the next sentence is not correct)

Those just drawn from the breasts


10 For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept,
Line upon line, line upon line,
Here a little, there a little."

Mar 10:15 Verily I say unto you, Whosoever shall not receive the kingdom of God as a little child, he shall not enter therein.

 

[Hidden Manna]

More, on the oracles given to the Jews.
We are all -those of us who are born of the Spirit of adoption -in the Firstborn- taken to our Father's 'house' =the heavenly temple, and hidden, when the wrath =His indignation, passes over this earth.

The doors are shut about us and we are hidden in Father's house while the inhabitants of the world's hearts are faint with fear for all the things that come upon all the inhabitants of the earth.

And, to reply to this;

In fact, that's exactly who YHWH says will understand the message;

Isaiah 28:9
"Whom will he teach knowledge?
And whom will he make to understand the message?
Those just weaned from milk (the question mark added by translators, here and in the next sentence is not correct)

Those just drawn from the breasts


10 For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept,
Line upon line, line upon line,
Here a little, there a little."

Mar 10:15 Verily I say unto you, Whosoever shall not receive the kingdom of God as a little child, he shall not enter therein.

John 16:25
" These things I have spoken to you in figurative language; but the time is coming when I will no longer speak to you in figurative language, but I will tell you plainly about the Father.

John 16:29
His disciples said to Him, "See, now You are speaking plainly, and using no figure of speech!

Your speaking in figurative language all the time and it is very hard to understand because you assume evryone understand what YOU intepret figurative language to mean. No child would be able to understand all your figurative language, if the Spirit of the Lord was speaking through you you would have to speak plainly with the understanding that all scripture has been fulfilled in the spiritual realm.

If only YOU could see all the thing that you are saying as already fulfilled in the spiritual realm in Christ and that is all that will be fulfilled.

 

[yeshuasavedme]

John 16:25
" These things I have spoken to you in figurative language; but the time is coming when I will no longer speak to you in figurative language, but I will tell you plainly about the Father.

John 16:29
His disciples said to Him, "See, now You are speaking plainly, and using no figure of speech!

Your speaking in figurative language all the time and it is very hard to understand because you assume evryone understand what YOU intepret figurative language to mean. No child would be able to understand all your figurative language, if the Spirit of the Lord was speaking through you you would have to speak plainly with the understanding that all scripture has been fulfilled in the spiritual realm.

If only YOU could see all the thing that you are saying as already fulfilled in the spiritual realm in Christ and that is all that will be fulfilled.

Speaking according to the oracles is not speaking in riddles or in darkness.
Theologians put the Messiah to death, but the simple thief on the cross simply asked Him to remember him, when He came "into His kingdom"; and for that faith in His Word, the thief received eternal life immediately.

Abraham understood the oracle in the living prophecy of sacrificing his 'only' son and rejoiced in the Messiah's 'Day of Salvation' which He saw that day, in Genesis 22.
It seems that his descendent, Job (according to the ancient Jews, Job was descended from Esau, and was the Jobab mentioned as second chief in Edom), had been well instructed by Abraham -as YHWH said Abraham would do to his 'house' - and Job understood the root of the matter of sin that the Redeemer would suffer for, and that after his death He would see His Redeemer in his own flesh with his own eyes -resurrected; and that his Redeemer would stand on the earth in the 'last' day -as in the millennium, after the resurrection.
Look at the original language in the concordances; the Hebrew is rich in description of all that YHWH shall do (and has done) and has not done but will do, for all must be fullfilled according to the oracles -which are not riddles, but shadows of the heavenly truths.
For that reason, the YHWH [who was to come] in flesh declares; "I have not spoken in secret"...

Isa 48:16 Come ye near unto me, hear ye this; I have not spoken in secret from the beginning; from the time that it was, there [am] I: and now the Lord GOD, and his Spirit, hath sent me.

The oracles speak plainly especially now, and there is no reason to invent elaborate religious sounding doctrines that have no basis in the truth revealed in the living oracles given as the signs of the heavenly truths to Israel, the namesake of the New Creation Man, YHWH come in flesh as the true Mercy Seat of the Ark of the Covenant on whose body the true blood of sprinkling was sprinkled once, for all in Adam, for our cleansing, making way for our adoption in His New Man Spirit.

The clothes of the priests speak of our adoption bodies that we will don at the regeneration, and we will never have to take 'them' 'off', as the priests who ministered in the temple did, for we will never have to go out of the Presence of the glory again, after our regeneration.

To come to that perfect Man, in our regenerated bodies, is the end of the law, or the goal of the law, as the Greek says, and was what the living oracles were given as signs of. And to understand the priesthood's garments as a sign of the adoption bodies teaches us about the place we will be while the indignation goes on, on this earth for the 'week' of the great tribulation.

 

[Hidden Manna]

for we will never have to go out of the Presence of the glory again, after our regeneration.

To come to that perfect Man, in our regenerated bodies, is the end of the law,

Tell me why then do you believe that we are not in the presence of God's glory if what you say is true that:

we will never have to go out of the Presence of the glory again

Is that not saying that we are not yet in God's presence?

And has not the law come to a fulfillment in Christ, but you say it has not when you said:

To come to that perfect Man, in our regenerated bodies, is the end of the law

Seems to me that you do not believe in what Christ has done as Paul said:

Romans 8:2
For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has made me free from the law of sin and death.

Why do Christians boast in the Law rather than in Christ? Perhaps it is a righteousness issue. They do not understand that righteousness is a gift. Either Jesus, who He is and what He has done is the measure of our standing and blessing with God or who we are and what we have done is the measure of these things. It is self-righteousness or the righteousness of Christ. There is no curious mixture of both.

I think also that Christians are afraid that without the Law written on stone there will be all manner of evil or an anything goes attitude. On the contrary the Law written on stone could not accomplish the righteousness of God. Being under the Law was equated with bondage not freedom. The Law basically said be like God. Do what He would do. However, if you are not like God, you can’t have God. Yet, the only thing that can make a human being more like God is God. Yet, if the Law keeps us from what we need to be like God we are trapped and without hope.

As Paul writes in Romans, through Christ we were made to die to the Law that we might be joined with God that we might bear fruit for God. So the bottom line is that God is the One who makes us righteous and not we ourselves. It is the finished works of Christ that got us to God and gave us God. It is His great work that makes us like Him. It is His great gift that makes us holy.

 

[yeshuasavedme]

...

You left off the point of my statement -on purpose?;
"To come to that perfect Man, in our regenerated bodies, is the end of the law, or the goal of the law, as the Greek says,..."
The point being that the word 'end' is 'goal'.

You have not reached that goal, which is the body of perfection, the regenerated body made in the image of Christ, who is the True Mercy Seat of solid gold (eternal, immortal), which all come to at the resurrection of the dead in Christ and the regeneration of those raised bodies and the regeneration of the living Believers -at that time in the future, and our regenerated bodies are represented by the wooden Ark, plated with the gold and crowned with the solid gold crown, which crown represents the crown of life.

you have not received your crown of life and you have not received your gold plated (translated) regenerated body of adoption and you have not received the full measure of the glory of God that is to be given to all the sons that are adopted when they are 'harvested' in the resurrection as sons of God, regenerated in body for the Presence of the glory to indwell forever.

The regenerated body is shadowed and typed in the living oracles given to the Jews, when the priests were washed and anointed and put on the holy garments in the temple to minister as priests there, to YHWH. When they left the temple they removed the garments, first, and left them there.

Those priestly garments represent the regenerated bodies that we who are born of the Spirit from above shall put on when we are called to gather and "come", "enter"..., and remain behind the doors for our consecration as priests for that seven day period -which is when the great tribulation will be upon the inhabitants of the earth.


The issue we are at odds about is the regenerated body entering into the Presence and being glorified with the fullness of the Presence. The regenerated in spirit Believers are 'one Spirit' in the Firstborn and 'in' that same 'One Spirit' are 'seated' in the heavenlies with the Firstborn; but our 'person' is not 'seated' there, as His Person is, because our 'person' is not regenerated in body, though our being is regenerated 'in Spirit': just as all are born 'one spirit' 'in Adam' and in Adam, all die; so all are made alive in the 'one Spirit of adoption -whosoever will, that is.

 

[Hidden Manna]

You left off the point of my statement -on purpose?;
"To come to that perfect Man, in our regenerated bodies, is the end of the law, or the goal of the law, as the Greek says,..."
The point being that the word 'end' is 'goal'.

You have not reached that goal, which is the body of perfection, the regenerated body made in the image of Christ, who is the True Mercy Seat of solid gold (eternal, immortal), which all come to at the resurrection of the dead in Christ and the regeneration of those raised bodies and the regeneration of the living Believers -at that time in the future, and our regenerated bodies are represented by the wooden Ark, plated with the gold and crowned with the solid gold crown, which crown represents the crown of life.

you have not received your crown of life and you have not received your gold plated (translated) regenerated body of adoption and you have not received the full measure of the glory of God that is to be given to all the sons that are adopted when they are 'harvested' in the resurrection as sons of God, regenerated in body for the Presence of the glory to indwell forever.

The regenerated body is shadowed and typed in the living oracles given to the Jews, when the priests were washed and anointed and put on the holy garments in the temple to minister as priests there, to YHWH. When they left the temple they removed the garments, first, and left them there.

Those priestly garments represent the regenerated bodies that we who are born of the Spirit from above shall put on when we are called to gather and "come", "enter"..., and remain behind the doors for our consecration as priests for that seven day period -which is when the great tribulation will be upon the inhabitants of the earth.


The issue we are at odds about is the regenerated body entering into the Presence and being glorified with the fullness of the Presence. The regenerated in spirit Believers are 'one Spirit' in the Firstborn and 'in' that same 'One Spirit' are 'seated' in the heavenlies with the Firstborn; but our 'person' is not 'seated' there, as His Person is, because our 'person' is not regenerated in body, though our being is regenerated 'in Spirit': just as all are born 'one spirit' 'in Adam' and in Adam, all die; so all are made alive in the 'one Spirit of adoption -whosoever will, that is.

YesI have reached that goal, which is the body of perfection, the regenerated body made in the image of Christ because it is the spiritual body of Jesus Christ that came into perfection once the temple was destroyed in AD 70.

If that temple was not destroyed we all would still be under the law, but you say we are still under the law.

Well then when was the last time you sacrificed an animal for your sins?

When was the last time you gave a meat or drink offering if you are still under the law?

When was the last time the ten commandments ruled your life instead of living in the law of love which fulfills the 10 commandments ?

I have received the crown of life when I saw the Lord with my eyes of understanding. His appearing was in the clouds or spiritual realm when the temple was destroyed.

1 Thess 2:19
For what [is] our hope, or joy, or crown of rejoicing? [Is it] not even you in the presence of our Lord Jesus Christ at His coming?

2 Timothy 4:8
Finally, there is laid up for me the crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous Judge, will give to me on that Day, and not to me only but also to all who have loved His appearing.

James 1:12
. Blessed [is] the man who endures temptation; for when he has been approved, he will receive the crown of life which the Lord has promised to those who love Him.

1 Peter 5:4
and when the Chief Shepherd appears, you will receive the crown of glory that does not fade away.

You can say we have not all you want but you can not take away from me what the Lord has already give. And just because you can not see it does not mean that it is not so.

I believe it and I have received it.

That which is perfect has come, And that which was in part " was done away.

And now abide faith, hope, love, these three; but the greatest of these is love.

 

[yeshuasavedme]

YesI have reached that goal, which is the body of perfection, the regenerated body made in the image of Christ because it is the spiritual body of Jesus Christ that came into perfection once the temple was destroyed in AD 70.

If that temple was not destroyed we all would still be under the law, but you say we are still under the law.

I have never said that we are 'still' under the law! -and that is a total misrepresentation of what I have said -again!
~~~~~~~~~~
You are not regenerated in your physical body and you have not been crowned with the crown of life and you have not been glorified -No Way!

The Church of Jesus Christ was born on Pentecost, when He sent His Holy Spirit to indwell His Church -in the measure of promise of the full glory to come when we receive our regenerated bodies -and that birth of the Church was almost forty years before the temple was destroyed!

But prior to that coming of the Holy Spirit to indwell the Born again Believers, as His Church, the LORD Jesus breathed upon His disciples after His resurrection and said; “Receive ye the Holy Spirit”, and they were individually born again from above from that moment.

The glory that formerly dwelt in the temple that Solomon built departed that temple (before 'the indignation'), and you'll find the record of that departure of the glory of the Presence of the Living Spirit, in Ezekiel, chapters 1-11: and the glory has never returned to a Jewish temple since that departure, as the Ark of the Covenant has never returned; so Israel has not been able to sprinkle the blood upon the Mercy Seat since ‘the indignation’ at the Babylonian invasion.

That first temple was the one that the author of Hebrews spoke of when he spoke of the High Priest entering the Holy of Holies to sprinkle the blood on the Mercy Seat in that first temple once a year, and since there has been no Mercy Seat (for the Ark has never returned), in the Jewish temple since the Babylonian invasion, then that has not been done according to the law of Moses in the Holy of Holies since then.


The Day of atonement will not be done in the Millennium, as the veil is split open since the cross -but those who are taken in the rapture and those who are resurrected in body at that time of the rapture will not enter the Holy of Holies in the heavenlies in their 'street' clothes; that is, in their 'Adam body', for they must put on the 'special' priestly 'holy' garments to enter into the Holy of Holies in heaven, which were represented in the garments the priests put on to enter the Holy of Holies and took off when they left, under the Law of Moses.

The 'immortal gold plated body' represented by the Ark of the Covenant, crowned with the crown of life, which crown of life was represented by the solid gold crown on the Ark of the Covenant is represented in the law, in the oracles given to the Jews in the priestly garments and no one in Adam has come to that ‘perfect man‘ except those whom the Firstborn resurrected in their regenerated bodies when He rose from the dead -to offer as the Firstfruits of earth‘s harvest (of sons of God) in the heavenly temple along with Himself as the Firstborn from the dead on Firstfruits, after Passover.

Being washed (cleansed) and anointed (given the Holy Spirit) one must still put on the holy garments of ministry (the regenerated body), to minister in the heavenly ‘temple’ as priests; and that is what those who are regenerated in body will be; “Priests” -and kings (rulers in the Firstborn).

 

[Hidden Manna]

I have never said that we are 'still' under the law! -and that is a total misrepresentation of what I have said -again!
~~~~~~~~~~
You are not regenerated in your physical body and you have not been crowned with the crown of life and you have not been glorified -No Way!

I so sorry for misrepresenting what you did say.

You said in exact wording this: "To come to that perfect Man, in our regenerated bodies, is the end of the law,

WELL THEN IF WE ARE NOT regenerated in our physical body AS YOU SAY, THEN WE ARE STILL UNDER THE LAW according to the way that I and most people would understand what you did say because according to you we have not regenerated physical bodies .

Now will you please show us where did you find the scripture that says that a regenerated is body physical and that the crown of life is a literal physical crown?


What I am saying is that we have reach this perfection through Christ in the spiritual realm and that none of this stuff is physical. Does that make sense to you yet or do you still not get what I am trying to get through to your spiritual mind that believes that physical fulfillment is the ultimate.

 

[Hidden Manna]

Resurrection From What Death?

The idea that there will some day be a resurrection of physically dead human corpses is so ingrained in the modern religious psyche that to question it is considered taboo by most. Yet I will do just that. It is my contention that the Biblical concept of the resurrection involves a spiritual raising of man out of sin-death, (i.e. separation from God caused by sin); a restoration of man to the presence of God.

In Genesis 2:15-17 God told man concerning the fruit of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil “in the day you eat thereof you will surely die.” Man and woman ate of the fruit. Did they die that day? Amazingly, most people will say “No!” because Adam and Eve did not die physically after they ate the forbidden fruit. But this is not the whole story.

Death means separation, not annihilation. And Adam and Eve were cast out of the Garden the day they ate the fruit. Thus, Adam and Eve died spiritually because they were cast out of the presence of God. If Adam and Eve did not die the day they ate then Satan told the truth and God lied! God said you will die in the day you eat, Satan said you will not surely die, Genesis 3:1ff. Who told the truth to Adam and Eve? Unless one can find Adam and Eve physically dead in Genesis 2-3, then the death they died was spiritual and not physical.

If we regain in Christ, in resurrection, what was lost in Adam, 1 Cor. 15:22, and if spiritual life, not physical, is what was lost, then physical resurrection is not what the Bible means by resurrection from the dead. Instead, the focus of Bible teaching about resurrection is the spiritual restoration of man from sin-death.

The New Testament writers likened life under the Old Covenant to death, because all those under the Law were under the curse, Gal. 3:10f. Paul called the Old Testament the “ministration of death” because all it did was condemn; it could not justify, Romans 8:1-3. He spoke of his struggles under the Old Covenant; he spoke of his past death under it, and lamented “Who shall deliver me from the body of this death?” Romans 7:9-24.

Jesus’ death and resurrection was the power for the final removal of that law that brought death, Eph. 2. But that Old Law could not fully pass until it was all fulfilled, Matthew 5:17-18; and until the New Covenant law of life in Christ was completely established, Gal. 3:21-29. This meant that there was a time of transition between the Old Law and the New; a time when those coming out from that Old Law were coming into life. They were being raised into resurrection life as firstfruits of the coming perfection in Christ.

When that Old Covenant of Death was completely taken away, this is called the resurrection. This is what Paul said in 1 Corinthians 15:54-56. The resurrection would be when the Old Testament was fulfilled, vs. 54; it would be when “the law,” which was “the strength of sin,” was removed, vs. 56. More on all this later.

The modern concept of a physical resurrection of human bodies is not consistent with scripture. It makes physical death the focus of God’s threat in Eden, yet scripture denies this. The modern view denies the relationship of the Old Covenant to death and life — spiritual life. It fails to take into consideration that man stands before God in relationship to Covenant. To live under a Ministration of Death was to be a body of death, Rom. 7:24; 8:8-10. To be delivered from that ministration of death was to be resurrected. This is the Biblical concept of resurrection.

The New Testament believers were dying to the Old Law as they were baptized into Christ, Romans 6-7. The Law itself was not dead — they were dying to the Law; “You have become dead to the law by the body of Christ” Rom. 7:4; “Christ is the end of the law to those who believe,” Rom. 10:4. But the Law would pass when fulfilled and the Hebrew writer says it was at that time growing old and was ready to vanish away, Hebrews 8:13.

Resurrection is deliverance from sin; sin-death; read Ephesians 2:1. This happens by faith in response to the gospel of Jesus Christ. Christ has “abolished death and brought life and immortality to light through the gospel” 2 Tim. 1:10. Those who would know the life that will never end, John 8:51, must enter the power of Jesus’ death and resurrection to enjoy the salvation/resurrection purchased by Him. Jesus is the resurrection and the life. To have this life one must be in Christ through baptism for this is where one is joined to Christ’s death and resurrection.

While this study will examine several different verses, I will concentrate on John 5:24-29, a pivotal text in the resurrection discussion.

“Most assuredly, I say to you , he who hears My word and believes in Him who sent Me has everlasting life, and shall not come into judgment, but has passed from death unto life. Most assuredly, I say to you, the hour is coming, and now is, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God; and those who hear will live. For as the Father has life in Himself, so He has granted the Son to have life in Himself, and has given Him authority to execute judgment also, because He is the Son of Man. Marvel not at this; for the hour is coming in which all who are in the graves will he His voice and come forth — those who have done good to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation.” (NKJV)

This discourse forms the foundation for the “two resurrection” idea. Most commentators insist that in verses 24-25 Jesus spoke of a spiritual resurrection available to the believer today and then in verses 28-29 he spoke of a yet future physical resurrection.

My purpose is to examine the specific context of John 5 and examine Jesus’ prediction of the coming consummative hour in the light of 1 John 2 and Revelation. We will study the Hope of Israel and the relationship of the fulfillment and passing of the Old Testament to resurrection and will note the Old Testament foundation for Jesus’ prediction in John 5. The constituent elements of resurrection will be noted in light of New Testament teaching that the resurrection had already begun but was not consummated. Several passages that tell when the resurrection would occur will be studied. Finally, we will explore some of the contradictions in the traditional views of John 5, and take note of some objections to the views that we will set forth.

I have purposely kept the number of footnotes and references to a minimum. While such notes could be copiously provided I have decided to observe the “k-i-s-s” principle as much as possible. For those wishing such references please see Max R. King’s massive volume “The Cross and the Parousia.”

Don K. Preston

 

[yeshuasavedme]

I so sorry for misrepresenting what you did say.

You said in exact wording this: "To come to that perfect Man, in our regenerated bodies, is the end of the law,

No, You are misrepresenting what I said!
Christ is the 'goal' of the law, meaning 'the end' -the Greek for 'end' is 'goal' 'finish'.

When you have reached the goal that the law pointed to in it's oracles then you will have your regenerated body:

The gold plated wood Ark crowned with the solid gold crown represents that regenerated, crowned body -which willl then be glorified.

Christ, as the New Man, is represented by the solid gold Mercy Seat that the blood of Atonement was sprinkled upon once a year.
The river from the temple represents the Spirit of Life that flows from above to all who are adopted into the River of Life in the New Man.
You have the adoption only in spirit when you are born from above by that Spirit of adoption, but not in body until the regeneration of the body. Abraham had only the promise of the Spirit to come when His name was changed as a sign from Abram to Abra H am; but we who are adopted in Spirit have the promise, but not the 'end', the 'goal', which is the adoption body represented by the Ark of the Covenant -under the Mercy Seat.


With Paul, we who are adopted in Spirit press toward the mark -'the perfect man' in Christ, regenerated in body in His New Man image.

I have to go, but if you don't know the Scriptures that I referred to in my post, I'll return and post each of them, but no more misrepresenting what I say, please!

 

[Hidden Manna]

No, You are misrepresenting what I said!
Christ is the 'goal' of the law, meaning 'the end' -the Greek for 'end' is 'goal' 'finish'.

When you have reached the goal that the law pointed to in it's oracles then you will have your regenerated body:

The gold plated wood Ark crowned with the solid gold crown represents that regenerated, crowned body -which willl then be glorified.

Christ, as the New Man, is represented by the solid gold Mercy Seat that the blood of Atonement was sprinkled upon once a year.
The river from the temple represents the Spirit of Life that flows from above to all who are adopted into the River of Life in the New Man.
You have the adoption only in spirit when you are born from above by that Spirit of adoption, but not in body until the regeneration of the body. Abraham had only the promise of the Spirit to come when His name was changed as a sign from Abram to Abra H am; but we who are adopted in Spirit have the promise, but not the 'end', the 'goal', which is the adoption body represented by the Ark of the Covenant -under the Mercy Seat.


With Paul, we who are adopted in Spirit press toward the mark -'the perfect man' in Christ, regenerated in body in His New Man image.

I have to go, but if you don't know the Scriptures that I referred to in my post, I'll return and post each of them, but no more misrepresenting what I say, please!

No, You are misrepresenting what I said!
Christ is the 'goal' of the law, meaning 'the end' -the Greek for 'end' is 'goal' 'finish'.

When you have reached the goal that the law pointed to in it's oracles then you will have your regenerated body:

Okay we are both then saying the same thing although I am saying that all believer have reached this goal at the time of convertion post AD70. First century Christians had to wait until what happened in AD70 accually happened. This regenerated body is the body of Christ without the old temple "Body" around.

The gold plated wood Ark crowned with the solid gold crown represents that regenerated, crowned body -which willl then be glorified.

Christ, as the New Man, is represented by the solid gold Mercy Seat that the blood of Atonement was sprinkled upon once a year.
The river from the temple represents the Spirit of Life that flows from above to all who are adopted into the River of Life in the New Man.
You have the adoption only in spirit when you are born from above by that Spirit of adoption, but not in body until the regeneration of the body.

The body was resurrected but not the physical body, read the post that I posted about What body was resurrected. Body mean corparate body as in Body of Moses "old covenant saints" and the Body of Christ "New covenant saints". The first century Christians were waiting as futurist do today because they do not see that the resurrection occured long ago when the temple was destroyed. That had to happen to end the old system and when that happened the resurrection of the dead "separated from God" occured.

You real need to read that artical and address it.

With Paul, we who are adopted in Spirit press toward the mark -'the perfect man' in Christ, regenerated in body in His New Man image.

Paul did not write that to us 2000 years or even to the people who were alive 2 minute after the temple was destroyed. Paul wrote that to the pre AD70 transition saints who were waiting for their salvation to be complete by God's judgment upon apostate Israel and the old covenant system "temple".

I have to go, but if you don't know the Scriptures that I referred to in my post, I'll return and post each of them, but no more misrepresenting what I say, please!

I wish you would not accuse me of misrepresenting what you say. Everyone around here debate issues and disagree with other peoples views and look for things in the other persons views that maybe flawed and brings them out to make an issue of it.

You do and we all do the very same in one way or an other. example: you do not even acknowledge my view of a corparate bodily resurrection as a possiblity and just bring out your view of a persons physical resurrected body.

And if it seems like I have misrepresented what you say it is just because my view is different then yours is and visa versa.

If you have a problem what that I think we sould end our conversation because we are just going around in circle. One other thing is that I have been where you are at to a very strong degree, but you have never understood full preterism nor believed in it.

If you can present to me one or better yet two or three people who were full preterist but no long believe that way but believe what you believe then I think you would have a case to believe in from my point of view. But to this day I have never seen or heard or met one person who was a full preterist who went back to believing in futurism, not one and no othe rfull preterist that I know has yet either. To me that says it all.

 

[yeshuasavedme]

Okay we are both then saying the same thing although I am saying that all believer have reached this goal at the time of convertion post AD70. First century Christians had to wait until what happened in AD70 accually happened. This regenerated body is the body of Christ without the old temple "Body" around.

Well -actually, no, we aren't saying the same thing.
I haven't received the regenerated body nor have you.
No one receives the regenerated body until the first 'harvest", which is the first resurrection, which is guaranteed to come by the Firstfruits that have already been gathered and received in the heavenly temple, above, which were offered there on the First of firstfruits which was the first, first day of the week after Passover, in the Feasts of the LORD; which Feasts are types and shadows of the heavenly truths.

When Jesus Christ rose from the dead in His body of "New Creation Man" flesh, on the eve of First of Firstfruits, He raised many bodies of the dead Saints, along with His own, whose bodies slept in the dust; and they rose from the dead in their own regenerated bodies and came out of their graves, on that First of Firstfruits, and were seen of many and walked about the city.
When He ascended to the Father, mid-morning on that certain 'First of Firstfruits', "He led captivity captive", taking with Him those whose bodies He had raised from the dust of this earth, regenerated, to offer as that offering in the heavenly temple as those First of firstfruits offering, along with Himself; and that Firstfruits harvest gaurantees the full harvest to come at the first resurrection, which is typed by Pentecost.

Only those who are born from above by the Spirit of adoption will be regenerated in body at that first resurrection, and those who are regenerated in body will never, ever die, in spirit or in body again, and will have no part in the second resurrection or the second death.

The final harvest is typed by Tabernacles, and that harvest comes after the thousand year reign and is the second resurrection.

That's why Pentecost has no celebration mentioned in Ezekiel in the millennium and is why Tabernacles is celebrated in the millennium, for Tabernacles will not be fullfilled until the final harvest of earth's souls -some to everlasting life and some to everlasting death -in the lake of fire.

And that is why we who are born again from above do not dwell on this earth after we are regenerated in body, but serve in the heavenlies for the thousand years, before we return to this earth after it is regenerated in the end.

Absolutely nothing the LORD has plannnd to do and will do is outside the teaching that is given in the oracles. The Feasts of God are His times and seasons, and He will restore them when Israel is restored -until all are fullfilled.
The Atonement is done, but the harvest is not gathered in -yet; only the "First of Firstfruits" has been gathered, Jesus being the Firstfruits, Himself, from the dead, who raises the many sons that He came to bring to glory -to gather in the harvest, as sons, from this earth, and bring back to the Father.

On that eve of first of firstfruits after Passover:
Matthew 27;52,53; And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose,
And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.

Exd 34:26 The first of the firstfruits of thy land thou shalt bring unto the house of the LORD thy God.


Leviticus 23:5; In the fourteenth [day] of the first month at even [is] the LORD'S passover
10; Speak unto the children of Israel, and say unto them, When ye be come into the land which I give unto you, and shall reap the harvest thereof, then ye shall bring a sheaf of the firstfruits of your harvest unto the priest:
11; And he shall wave the sheaf before the LORD, to be accepted for you: on the morrow after the sabbath the priest shall wave it.

Jhn 20:17 Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and [to] my God, and your God.

Psa 68:18 Thou hast ascended on high, thou hast led captivity captive: thou hast received gifts for men; yea, [for] the rebellious also, that the LORD God might dwell [among them].

Eph 4:8 Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men.

Job 19:25,26,28;
For I know [that] my redeemer liveth, and [that] he shall stand at the "last" [day] upon the earth:

And [though] after my skin [worms] destroy this [body], yet in my flesh shall I see God:
Whom I shall see for myself, and mine eyes shall behold, and not another; [though] my reins be consumed within me.

Isa 26:19 Thy dead [men] shall live, [together with] my dead body shall they arise. Awake and sing, ye that dwell in dust: for thy dew [is as] the dew of herbs, and the earth shall cast out the dead.