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Wanting to observe the Sabbath

Discussion in 'Sabbath and The Law' started by 31gH9N.9., Sep 2, 2017.

  1. salt-n-light

    salt-n-light Well-Known Member Supporter

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    What is Sabbath and its significance based on your understanding of the scripture?
     
  2. Soyeong

    Soyeong Well-Known Member

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    The Law is not God's instructions for how to live like a Jew, but for how to walk in His ways (Deuteronomy 8:6). It's to teach us how to reflect His image by living in accordance with His attributes in accordance with his holiness, righteousness, goodness (Romans 7:12), justice, mercy, faithfulness, and other fruits of the Spirit (Exodus 34:6-7). People who have jobs that require them to work in Sundays are in a tough position, but I think that God will bless those who choose to honor His commands by faith, and there are many testimonies of people who were blessed by making that decision.
     
  3. faroukfarouk

    faroukfarouk Fading curmudgeon

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    The Sabbath was part of the old law system. We could also go to the feast of first fruits and its fulfilment in the Resurrection (1 Corinthians 15.20).
     
  4. Soyeong

    Soyeong Well-Known Member

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    The Law teaches us how to reflect the attributes of God and if it is important for the followers of God to seek to reflect God's attributes to the world, then it doesn't matter which system it was under. Nevertheless, the Sabbath was kept all throughout Acts. The Sabbath and God's other holy days are all important foreshadows that teach us about Messiah, about God's plan of redemption, and about what we will be doing during Messiah's reign, so we should not deprive ourselves of the delight of keeping them, and should let no man keep us from the privilege of reflecting God's attributes in accordance with obeying what He has commanded.
     
  5. Soyeong

    Soyeong Well-Known Member

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    The significance if the Sabbath based on Scripture is worthy of a full study, which I recommend:

    Sabbath (or Shabbat) study of God's Festivals
     
  6. salt-n-light

    salt-n-light Well-Known Member Supporter

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    So why did Jesus do work on the Sabbath as pointed out by the Pharasees? Why would he pick wheat with the disciplines and eat the food that was only for the priest in Mark 2?
     
    Last edited: Sep 5, 2017
  7. faroukfarouk

    faroukfarouk Fading curmudgeon

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    Part of the 'obedience of faith' now under the New Testament, when believers are under grace, looking to Christ our firstfruits, is to recognize that the law was changed; having come from Sinai - our schoolmaster who led us to Christ - I don't see how Calvary now leads us back to Sinai.

    (But maybe we see things very, very differently.)
     
  8. Soyeong

    Soyeong Well-Known Member

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    In Matthew 15:2-3, Jesus was asked why his disciples broke the traditions of the elders and he responded by asking them why they broke the command of God for the sake of their tradition. He went on to say that for the sake of their tradition they made void the Word of God (Matthew 15:6), that they worshiped God in vain because they were teaching as doctrines the commands of men (Matthew 15:8-9), and they they were hypocrites for setting aside the commands of God in order to establish their own traditions (Mark 7:6-9), so it is critically important to understand that Messiah's major criticism of the Pharisees was that they were not teaching the Mosaic Law and that what they were teaching as the Mosaic Law was in fact filled with their own traditions. If we are not careful to make that distinction, then it very easy to make the mistake of taking something in the NT that was only against obeying the laws of men as being against obeying the Law of God. According to the laws of men, it was unlawful to heal on the Sabbath because that involved doing work, but Jesus said that it was lawful to do good on the Sabbath, so the command to rest on the Sabbath was never intended to be used as an excuse to avoid doing good. In general, no command was intended to prevent us from obeying the greatest two commands. So while Jesus certainly broke man-made laws and traditions for how to keep the Sabbath, he never sinned by breaking the Sabbath as it was intended to be kept.
     
  9. salt-n-light

    salt-n-light Well-Known Member Supporter

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    So they were wrong for pointing out that Jesus was doing work on the Sabbath? Isn't that what the Sabbath was, being a day of rest, no work nor anything from sunset to sunset, and those who disobeyed would be put to death? (Jeremiah 17:21-27). It wasn't that Sabbath was an excuse to avoid doing good, but doing anything would mean death.Man didn't make that punishment, God did. Pharisees were corrupt in motives, but it doesn't mean that what they were saying was wrong.

    Jesus didn't criticize the law itself. Jesus, a Jew, picked out of all the days, a Sabbath, to pick wheat and eat the bread thats for the priest ( which like come on, if I was to just go up and just take bread like that, someone would rightfully say "hey stop taking that bread! That's against the law"), but he criticizes that they, the ones who knew the scriptures and the words of the prophets so well, didn't see that He was the fulfillment of that law. Sabbath was there to remember how God rested on the 7th day, and not honoring that means death. Jesus did all that to show that we are no longer under subjection to a day, His commandments now cover the commandments of the prophets "Love God", and " Love they neighbor as thyself". Upholding the Sabbath now, such like how Protestants uphold Sunday for the day of pentecost, are all for remembrance. But its not law anymore. What is upheld is still the importance of assembly and the structure of the church. But we are not subject to days.

    Pharisees weren't spiritually stupid, they were spiritually blind.
     
  10. Beorh

    Beorh Writer of Dark Literature

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    The Law was finished in Jesus, and he left us with one law only--Love. We can't pick and choose Torah laws to suit our whims. If so, the next time you see your Torah-abiding neighbor stoning his child to death in the street in front of your house, who will you obey? YHVH before the New Covenant was established, or the civil authorities who base their laws in Christianity and not Judaism?
     
  11. Soyeong

    Soyeong Well-Known Member

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    In Matthew 23:23, Jesus said that faith is one of the weightier aspects of the Law, so God's Law has always been a law of faith, and obedience to His instructions is straightforwardly about trusting Him to guide us in how to rightly live. Every example of saving faith in Hebrews 11 is also an example of someone living in obedience to God's instructions. According to Romans 1:5, we have received grace in order to bring about the obedience of faith, or in other words, the obedience that faith requires. According to Titus 2:11-14, our salvation involves being trained by grace to do what is godly, righteous, and good, and to renounce doing what is ungodly and sinful, which is an accurate description of what God's Law was given to instruct how to do. According to Psalms 119:29, David asked God to show His grace to him by teaching him to obey His Law. Grace is the power of God to overcome sin in our lives, and sin is the transgression of God's Law (1 John 3:4), so grace is the power of God to obey His Law. Jesus began his ministry with the Gospel message to repent from our sins for the Kingdom of God is at hand (Matthew 4:17, 4:23), and the Law is how they knew what they should be repenting of doing, so obedience to God's Law in an integral part of the Gospel message. All of God's Law was given to teach us about Christ and how to have a relationship with Him, so the Feast of Firstfruits has always been about looking to Messiah as our firstfruits from the dead.

    That chapter is speaking about there being a transition of the priesthood, so it would also be necessary for there to be a transition in the administration of the law. It is not speaking about there being a change in God's eternal righteousness or in the eternal way to act in accordance with His righteousness. In other words if taking a particular action was in accordance with God's righteousness before Christ came, but now that he has come, that action is no longer in accordance with God's righteousness, or vice versa, then God's righteousness has changed.

    Now that Christ has come, we have a superior teacher, but the subject matter is still how to do what is righteous in accordance with God's righteousness. Jesus did not teach how to do what is righteous by word and by example in accordance with God's Law so that his followers would be free from having to follow his example, but so that his followers would have an example to follow.
     
    Last edited: Sep 5, 2017
  12. Soyeong

    Soyeong Well-Known Member

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    There are many instances where some of God's laws appear to contradict each other, such as what happens when someone wants to keep the command to circumcise their baby on the 8th day and it happens to fall on the Sabbath. It is not the case that they were forced to sin by breaking on of the two commands no matter what they did, but that one of the commands was never intended to prohibit the other from being obeyed, and in this case, the Sabbath was not intended to prohibit circumcision on the 8th day. Likewise, the Sabbath was not intended to excuse priests from doing their duties, and the bread being meant only for the priests was not intended to be used as an excuse to let people starve, so they were held innocent.

    There is a significant difference between someone harvesting wheat to sell on the market as part of their occupation and the disciples plucking a few heads of wheat, rubbing them together, and putting them in their mouth. So I would question whether what the disciples were doing counted as work, and even if it did, it would not be the type of work that the Sabbath was intended to prohibit.

    In Jeremiah 17:21-27 is it speaking against being bringing their burdens to Jerusalem in regard to selling them as part of their occupation, such as with Nehemiah 10:31. The Sabbath is meant to take time away from our work or what profits us in this world so that we have time to do God's work and to grow in our relationship with Him both individual and as part of a community of believers. The Pharisees had all sorts of laws that governed everything such as how much someone could lift or how far someone could walk on the Sabbath before it counted as work, and then they would put a fence around that to make it even more stricter to prevent someone from accidentally getting close to doing something that was work, but all of these laws perverted what was supposed to be a day of rest into a legalistic chore, and completely missed the point of the command.

    In Matthew 12:1-8, the disciples were picking heads of grain and neither Jesus nor his disciples ate the bread that was only meant for the priests, but rather Jesus used an example of David eating the bread that was meant only for the priests in order to explain to the Pharisees why what they were doing was not unlawful. Jesus was born under the Law, so if you think that he broke its requirement to not work on the Sabbath, then you should think that he sinned, and therefore could not be our Savior.

    To fulfill the law means to cause God's will (as made known in the Law) to be obeyed as it should, and this is how Jesus fulfilled it. In Galatians 5:14, it says that loving our neighbor fulfills the entire Law, so everyone since Moses who has ever loved their neighbor has fulfilled the entire Law, which means that it does not refer to changing or doing away with the Law, but to obeying it as it should be. In Matthew 22:36-40, Jesus summarized the Law as being about how to love God and how to love our neighbor, so love fulls the Law because that is what the Law is essentially about how to do. In Galatians 6:2, it says that bearing one another's burdens fulfills the Law of Christ, which does not refer to doing away with it, but to obeying it as it should be. In Romans 15:18-19, it says that Paul fulfilled the Gospel, which does not refer to doing away with it, but to causing the Gentiles to come to full obedience to it in word and in deed as it should be. In Matthew 5:17-19, Jesus said he came to fulfill the Law, not to abolish it, and the proceeded to fulfill it six times throughout the rest of the chapter by teaching how to obey it as it was originally intended to be obeyed.
     
    Last edited: Sep 5, 2017
  13. Soyeong

    Soyeong Well-Known Member

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    In Matthew 22:36-40, Jesus summarized the Law as being about how to love God and how to love our neighbor, so it is the law of love. All the other commands hang on the greatest two commands, so they are the explanation for how to correctly obey the greatest two and through obeying the other commands we are obeying the greatest two, so if we correctly understand the principle of love, then it will lead us to follow all of the other commands in accordance with Messiah's example. A neighbor who was stoning his child to death in the street in front of my house would be acting in violation of the Torah in regard to the command not to murder, so I would stop them.

    Christianity is based on Judaism. Jesus did not come to start his own religion with its own god, but was born a Jew, raised a Jew, became a Jewish rabbi, had Jewish disciples, is the Jewish Messiah, fulfilled Jewish prophecy, and will return as the Lion of Judah, so he came to bring fullness to Judaism. Christianity was originally seen as sect of Judaism and all Christians were Torah observant Jews for roughly the first 7-15 years after Christ's resurrection up until the inclusion of Gentiles in Acts 10. The NT authors quoted or alluded to the OT thousands of times to establish that it supported what they said and that they did not depart from it. In Acts 17:11, the Bereans were praised because they diligently tested everything Paul told them against the OT to see if what he said was true. To be a Christian is to be a follower of the teachings and the example of the Jewish Messiah.
     
    Last edited: Sep 5, 2017
  14. faroukfarouk

    faroukfarouk Fading curmudgeon

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    In the middle there you started talking about righteousness rather than law; Hebrews 7 definitely says that it is the law (rather than righteousness) that was changed.

    Let's face it; we don't agree. You're probably not dispensationalist in your outlook; I am, hence the probable difference of perspective.
     
  15. Soyeong

    Soyeong Well-Known Member

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    In 2 Timothy 3:16-17, Paul said that all Scripture is God-breathed and profitable for training in righteousness, which is primarily inclusive of God's code of conduct, so the Law is God's instructions for how to do what is righteous in accordance with His righteousness. They way to act in accordance with God's righteousness can't change unless God's righteousness first changes. Dispensationalism is false because of this same issue, where people try to say that God has changed in order to try to excuse the fact that they have changed when they should instead be seeking to repent.
     
  16. faroukfarouk

    faroukfarouk Fading curmudgeon

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    Your representation of dispensationalism as you understand it is inaccurate; and since with rather distinct presuppositions our reasoning will be circular, there is little point in prolonging the discussion.
     
  17. Beorh

    Beorh Writer of Dark Literature

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    Follow the Torah for all I care, friend. Just don't be surprised when you are arrested and found guilty for sacrificing sheep in your back yard or stoning the local adulterer or your own child.
     
  18. Soyeong

    Soyeong Well-Known Member

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    Doing any of those actions would be in violation of the Torah.
     
  19. Soyeong

    Soyeong Well-Known Member

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    There is more to it than that, but that is what it boils down to. The way to live in accordance with God's righteousness can not change from group to group or time period to time period without God's righteousness changing. For example, if helping the poor was in accordance with God's righteousness before Christ came, but after he came the law changed so that is no longer in accordance with God's righteousness, then God's righteousness is not the same as it was. If two different groups have two different standards for how to live according to God's attributes, then those two groups worship two different Gods.
     
    Last edited: Sep 5, 2017
  20. Bob S

    Bob S Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Some on this site try to tell us that Torah, or at least part of it is salvational. There is no evidence that Torah was ever meant to be salvational. It was meant to be the laws that governed Israel. Mose wrote about Abraham and how he was saved and it was not by any law. Those who are thumping the law as any part of salvation are not Bible grounded. They just parrot what their teachers proclaim.
     
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