Wanting to observe the Sabbath

BobRyan

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Some on this site try to tell us that Torah, or at least part of it is salvational. .

Is it your doctrine that "do not take God's name in vain" is a commandment from Exodus 20:7 that should be totally ignored - until it can be shown that obeying that commandment will "earn" your way to heaven??

Please be serious. This is the Bible we are talking about -- the Word of God.
 
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BobRyan

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Follow the Torah for all I care, friend. Just don't be surprised when you are arrested and found guilty for sacrificing sheep in your back yard or stoning the local adulterer or your own child.

There is a level of opposition to the Commandments of God by those who do not keep the Bible Sabbath that goes FAR beyond scripture and opposes EVEN your own pro-Sunday scholars in their affirmation of God's TEN Commandments.

To name just a few of the groups AFFIRMING all TEN --

The Baptist Confession of Faith,
the Westminster Confession of Faith ,
D.L. Moody,
R.C Sproul,
Matthew Henry,
Thomas Watson
Eastern Orthodox Catechism
The Catholic Catechism.

For example ---over on the General Theology section - a link that included this text - was highly recommended by a pro-Sunday poster -

Like that link...

Baptist Confession of Faith
Section 19
Chapter 19: Of the Law of God
1._____ God gave to Adam a law of universal obedience written in his heart, and a particular precept of not eating the fruit of the tree of knowledge of good and evil; by which he bound him and all his posterity to personal, entire, exact, and perpetual obedience; promised life upon the fulfilling, and threatened death upon the breach of it, and endued him with power and ability to keep it.
( Genesis 1:27; Ecclesiastes 7:29; Romans 10:5; Galatians 3:10, 12 )
2._____ The same law that was first written in the heart of man continued to be a perfect rule of righteousness after the fall, and was delivered by God upon Mount Sinai, in ten commandments, and written in two tables, the four first containing our duty towards God, and the other six, our duty to man.
( Romans 2:14, 15; Deuteronomy 10:4 )

3._____ Besides this law, commonly called moral, God was pleased to give to the people of Israel ceremonial laws, containing several typical ordinances, partly of worship, prefiguring Christ, his graces, actions, sufferings, and benefits; and partly holding forth divers instructions of moral duties, all which ceremonial laws being appointed only to the time of reformation, are, by Jesus Christ the true Messiah and only law-giver, who was furnished with power from the Father for that end abrogated and taken away.
( Hebrews 10:1; Colossians 2:17; 1 Corinthians 5:7; Colossians 2:14, 16, 17; Ephesians 2:14, 16 )

4._____ To them also he gave sundry judicial laws, which expired together with the state of that people, not obliging any now by virtue of that institution; their general equity only being of moral use.
( 1 Corinthians 9:8-10 )

5._____ The moral law doth for ever bind all, as well justified persons as others, to the obedience thereof, and that not only in regard of the matter contained in it, but also in respect of the authority of God the Creator, who gave it; neither doth Christ in the Gospel any way dissolve, but much strengthen this obligation.
( Romans 13:8-10; James 2:8, 10-12; James 2:10, 11; Matthew 5:17-19; Romans 3:31 )

6._____ Although true believers be not under the law as a covenant of works, to be thereby justified or condemned, yet it is of great use to them as well as to others, in that as a rule of life, informing them of the will of God and their duty, it directs and binds them to walk accordingly; discovering also the sinful pollutions of their natures, hearts, and lives, so as examining themselves thereby, they may come to further conviction of, humiliation for, and hatred against, sin; together with a clearer sight of the need they have of Christ and the perfection of his obedience; it is likewise of use to the regenerate to restrain their corruptions, in that it forbids sin; and the threatenings of it serve to shew what even their sins deserve, and what afflictions in this life they may expect for them, although freed from the curse and unallayed rigour thereof. The promises of it likewise shew them God's approbation of obedience, and what blessings they may expect upon the performance thereof, though not as due to them by the law as a covenant of works; so as man's doing good and refraining from evil, because the law encourageth to the one and deterreth from the other, is no evidence of his being under the law and not under grace.
( Romans 6:14; Galatians 2:16; Romans 8:1; Romans 10:4; Romans 3:20; Romans 7:7, etc; Romans 6:12-14; 1 Peter 3:8-13 )

7._____ Neither are the aforementioned uses of the law contrary to the grace of the Gospel, but do sweetly comply with it, the Spirit of Christ subduing and enabling the will of man to do that freely and cheerfully which the will of God, revealed in the law, requireth to be done.
( Galatians 3:21; Ezekiel 36:27 )

Notice carefully sections 3 and 4 in that short little post


3._____ Besides this law, commonly called moral, God was pleased to give to the people of Israel ceremonial laws, containing several typical ordinances, partly of worship, prefiguring Christ, his graces, actions, sufferings, and benefits; and partly holding forth divers instructions of moral duties, all which ceremonial laws being appointed only to the time of reformation, are, by Jesus Christ the true Messiah and only law-giver, who was furnished with power from the Father for that end abrogated and taken away.
( Hebrews 10:1; Colossians 2:17; 1 Corinthians 5:7; Colossians 2:14, 16, 17; Ephesians 2:14, 16 )

4._____ To them also he gave sundry judicial laws, which expired together with the state of that people, not obliging any now by virtue of that institution; their general equity only being of moral use.
( 1 Corinthians 9:8-10 )

The Sabbath was part of the old law system. We could also go to the feast of first fruits and its fulfilment in the Resurrection (1 Corinthians 15.20).

Judy like "Do not take God's name in vain" exists in both NT and OT as moral law for all God's people - though it is never quoted in NT or in Genesis.

But as even your own pro-Sunday scholars admit - the TEN Commandments stand out as included in the MORAL LAW of God. Written on the heart under the NEW Covenant of Jeremiah 31:31-33
 
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salt-n-light

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There is a level of opposition to the Commandments of God by those who do not keep the Bible Sabbath that goes FAR beyond scripture and opposes EVEN your own pro-Sunday scholars in their affirmation of God's TEN Commandments.

To name just a few of the groups AFFIRMING all TEN --

The Baptist Confession of Faith,
the Westminster Confession of Faith ,
D.L. Moody,
R.C Sproul,
Matthew Henry,
Thomas Watson
Eastern Orthodox Catechism
The Catholic Catechism.

For example ---over on the General Theology section - a link that included this text - was highly recommended by a pro-Sunday poster -



Notice carefully sections 3 and 4 in that short little post


3._____ Besides this law, commonly called moral, God was pleased to give to the people of Israel ceremonial laws, containing several typical ordinances, partly of worship, prefiguring Christ, his graces, actions, sufferings, and benefits; and partly holding forth divers instructions of moral duties, all which ceremonial laws being appointed only to the time of reformation, are, by Jesus Christ the true Messiah and only law-giver, who was furnished with power from the Father for that end abrogated and taken away.
( Hebrews 10:1; Colossians 2:17; 1 Corinthians 5:7; Colossians 2:14, 16, 17; Ephesians 2:14, 16 )

4._____ To them also he gave sundry judicial laws, which expired together with the state of that people, not obliging any now by virtue of that institution; their general equity only being of moral use.
( 1 Corinthians 9:8-10 )



Judy like "Do not take God's name in vain" exists in both NT and OT as moral law for all God's people - though it is never quoted in NT or in Genesis.

But as even your own pro-Sunday scholars admit - the TEN Commandments stand out as included in the MORAL LAW of God. Written on the heart under the NEW Covenant of Jeremiah 31:31-33


What does it mean to be pro-Sunday?? That's a term I haven't heard before.
 
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Soyeong

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Some on this site try to tell us that Torah, or at least part of it is salvational. There is no evidence that Torah was ever meant to be salvational. It was meant to be the laws that governed Israel. Mose wrote about Abraham and how he was saved and it was not by any law. Those who are thumping the law as any part of salvation are not Bible grounded. They just parrot what their teachers proclaim.

The Torah was given to reveal what sin is and our salvation is from sin, so I do not see how anyone can deny that there is a connection between the two. When Jesus started his ministry with the Gospel message to repent from our sins for the Kingdom of God is at hand, the Torah is how they knew what to repent of doing. I am in complete agreement that we are not saved by obeying the Torah, but rather the one and only way that there has ever been to become is by grace through, and by the same grace through the same faith we are therefore required to be careful to live in obedience to all of God's commands. Abraham was declared righteous by grace through faith and by the same grace through the same faith he was careful to live in obedience to all of God's commands. According to Titus 2:11-14, our salvation involves being trained by grace to do what is godly, righteous, and good, and to renounce doing what is ungodly and sinful, and this is an accurate description of what the Torah was given to instruct how to do.
 
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BobRyan

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What does it mean to be pro-Sunday?? That's a term I haven't heard before.

It means that those groups promote the Sabbath Commandment - but they claim that Sunday is the Christian Sabbath that fulfills the obligation set forth in the Sabbath Commandment -- the Sabbath that we find in the TEN Commandments. They claim all TEN are still for all mankind just as they were in the OT.
 
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BobRyan

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So why did Jesus do work on the Sabbath as pointed out by the Pharasees? Why would he pick wheat with the disciplines and eat the food that was only for the priest in Mark 2?

Jesus did not send his disciples out to reap the fields on Sabbath ... nor did he do it. Rather as they were "passing by" they just reached over and grabbed a few heads of grain - rubbing it in their hands and eating as they walked.. Like you and I might pick an apple off a tree as we were walking. This does not break the Sabbath commandment as it is not secular work.

Recall that "even" in the NT "Sin IS transgression of the LAW" 1 John 3:4.

And in Galatians 4 we find that Jesus was born "under the Law" under the condition of "obey and live" -- even one sin on his part would be doom. And He never sinned... he never transgressed against the LAW. His enemies loved to accuse Him of law breaking ... He loved to show his affirmation of God's Commandments. Two opposing sides.

Notice what we find in Mark 7:6-13 -- Jesus affirming God's Commandments - TEN Commandments and his opponents degrading/downsizing the TEN.


Mark 7
6 He answered and said to them, “Well did Isaiah prophesy of you hypocrites, as it is written:
‘This people honors Me with their lips,
But their heart is far from Me.
7 And in vain they worship Me,
Teaching as doctrines the commandments of men.’
8 For laying aside the commandment of God, you hold the tradition of men —the washing of pitchers and cups, and many other such things you do.”
9 He said to them, “All too well you reject the commandment of God, that you may keep your tradition. 10 For Moses said, ‘Honor your father and your mother’; and, ‘He who curses father or mother, let him be put to death.’ 11 But you say, ‘If a man says to his father or mother, “Whatever profit you might have received from me is Corban”—’ (that is, a gift to God), 12 then you no longer let him do anything for his father or his mother, 13 making the word of God of no effect through your tradition which you have handed down. And many such things you do.”
 
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salt-n-light

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It means that those groups promote the Sabbath Commandment - but they claim that Sunday is the Christian Sabbath that fulfills the obligation set forth in the Sabbath Commandment -- the Sabbath that we find in the TEN Commandments. They claim all TEN are still for all mankind just as they were in the OT.

That means not every Sunday worshipper is pro-Sunday. Like Pentecostals don't link Sunday as a sabbath, but link it to the day of Pentecost, which was the 1st day of the week.

In any case, Sabbath is definitely not Sunday, it wouldn't be a scriptural based conclusion.
 
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BobRyan

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That means not every Sunday worshipper is pro-Sunday. Like Pentecostals don't link Sunday as a sabbath, but link it to the day of Pentecost, which was the 1st day of the week.

In any case, Sabbath is definitely not Sunday, it wouldn't be a scriptural based conclusion.

Indeed not all denominations who attend church on Sunday -- choose to uphold all TEN of the Ten Commandments.

Having said that - I am not convinced that all Pentecostals would be so quick to throw the Ten Commandments under a bus.

Click Here: Pentecostal Evangel: Articles

In Ephesians 6:2 Paul goes out of his way to point out that the 5th commandment is in the still-valid-and-binding TEN Commandments as "the first commandment with a promise".

He goes "out of his way" because instead of dragging in the unit of TEN - He could have said "Hey... I am an Apostle and this is the NT - I say to you - Honor your parents.. and since I am an inspired Apostle writing scripture this should be enough for you".

Instead Paul goes for a direct quote out of the TEN --- AND ALSO -- tells us about the unit of TEN fact that the 5th commandment is the first with a promise. going way out of his way to point the reader to the TEN.
 
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salt-n-light

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Indeed not all denominations who attend church on Sunday -- choose to uphold all TEN of the Ten Commandments.

Having said that - I am not convinced that all Pentecostals would be so quick to throw the Ten Commandments under a bus.

Pentecostal Evangel: Articles

In Ephesians 6:2 Paul goes out of his way to point out that the 5th commandment is in the still-valid-and-binding TEN Commandments as "the first commandment with a promise".

He goes "out of his way" because instead of dragging in the unit of TEN - He could have said "Hey... I am an Apostle and this is the NT - I say to you - Honor your parents.. and since I am an inspired Apostle writing scripture this should be enough for you".

Instead Paul goes for a direct quote out of the TEN --- AND ALSO -- tells us about the unit of TEN fact that the 5th commandment is the first with a promise. going way out of his way to point the reader to the TEN.

So I guess he made up another commandment after that, by saying "parents provoke not your children"? (Ephesians 6:4) Why would he choose to make a conjunction like that?
 
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BobRyan

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So I guess he made up another commandment after that, by saying "parents provoke not your children"? (Ephesians 6:4) Why would he choose to make a conjunction like that?

Is there anything about Eph 6:4 that contradicts Eph 6:2.

Notice that in Eph 6:4 Paul does not try to go back to the Ten Commandments. But for Eph 6:2 he goes out of his way to do it.

My argument is not that Paul is not inspired or does not have authority... my argument is that since he is inspired and has authority - as we see in Eph 6:4 -- there was no need for him to go to the TEN to make his case for honoring parents in Eph 6:2... he goes out of his way to do it.

Paul does the very thing he could not do - if his real mission was to declare the end of the Ten Commandments.
 
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faroukfarouk

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There is more to it than that, but that is what it boils down to. The way to live in accordance with God's righteousness can not change from group to group or time period to time period without God's righteousness changing. For example, if helping the poor was in accordance with God's righteousness before Christ came, but after he came the law changed so that is no longer in accordance with God's righteousness, then God's righteousness is not the same as it was. If two different groups have two different standards for how to live according to God's attributes, then those two groups worship two different Gods.
What you are basically saying is that Christians who read the Bible making dispensational distinctions are either unbelievers or so close to unbelievers there is little appreciable difference with unbelievers. My previous post about there being a lack of profit in continuing this dialogue would thus seem to be borne out.
 
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