want to talk about OSAS?

[nonaeroterraqueous]

I don't really understand your point. David did not have to go to hell in order to realize that he needed to regain his salvation back again (and the joy that comes with that).

Salvation from what? Prior to "regaining his salvation back again," what great horror was he enduring that he had to be saved from?

It's all about the end result. A drowning victim dies from drowning, not from floating, bobbing or thrashing about. You can pull him out of the water and toss him back again, but he will be a drowning victim only if he ultimately dies from water inhalation. If a man is tossed into the water and pulled out again, never to be returned, then he is not a drowning victim. He is, in fact, saved. A man who does not land in Hell is saved. A man who does roast his buns on the eternal wok is, in fact, not saved.

So your point is moot.

My point is merely missed by you.

But sons can die. Sons who are dead cannot partake in family picnics, and family dinners and get togethers. Dead sons will not be in the city of New Jerusalem.

The son in the parable never died. Now, you're just writing your own parable. The prodigal son was also never disowned, which is why the story disproves your argument.

Your inventing something that the Parable does not teach.

Don't talk to yourself in public. It looks bad.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

You once again are being evasive as I never mentioned Romans 8 and the discussion I was having was pertaining to eternal life passages. But you did not address the text I just quoted about being justified and glorified.

And you are being evasive with not giving a proper reply with the Bible to post #998. I can just give you a similar reply you gave me to me on post #998 if that will make you feel better.

Note 1:

Your reply to my post was post #1017.
So again, if you want me to give you a similar unsubstantial answer like that, I can do that.

Note 2:

But here is the deal. You give me a proper reply with Scripture in post #998 with Scripture and provide at least some commentary on those verses I put forth to you, and I will be happy to reply to your recent post in like kind. If not, we are wasting each other's time, my friend.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

The son in the parable never died. Now, you're just writing your own parable. The prodigal son was also never disowned, which is why the story disproves your argument.

The concept of one being physically alive and dead spiritually is not a new concept in the Bible.
For we learn of the believing widows that live in pleasure are dead while they live.

“But she that liveth in pleasure is dead while she liveth.” (1 Timothy 5:6).

Anyways, the prodigal son died spiritually, even though he was alive physically when he was living in his sins away from the father. For...

The father said of his prodigal son in Luke 15:24, “For this my son was dead, and is alive again; he was lost, and is found. And they began to be merry.”

The father said of his prodigal son in Luke 15:32, “It was meet that we should make merry, and be glad: for this thy brother was dead, and is alive again; and was lost, and is found.”
​

If you do not accept this parable as the truth on a believer losing salvation and regaining it back again, James 5:19-20 teaches the same thing.

“Brethren, if any of you do err from the truth, and one convert him; Let him know, that he which converteth the sinner from the error of his way shall save a soul from death, and shall hide a multitude of sins.” (James 5:19-20).​

Meaning, if any one of us believers errs (goes away) from the truth (i.e. Jesus and His good ways), and one of us believers converts this sinning believer from the error of his ways (by getting them to confess of their sins to Jesus), we should know that we have helped to save this soul (believer) from death, and we have helped to hide a multitude of of their sins (by pointing them to Jesus and His Word). Then again, if you do not like these verses I shown you above, you are free to dance around what they plainly say and make them say something else (that they do not say).

 

[chad kincham]

I would like to clear it up. As I said on another thread, To me how can you not believe in it? You have to keep being saved over and over again otherwise? So once isn't enough for you? That would seem to say that being saved is meaningless if you can't count on it to stick around.
Any theories, thoughts, etc?

The prodigal son.


In the prodigal son story, the father represents God, thus the son represents believers who are Gods adopted sons.


He’s already a son when the story starts.


He leaves the father to live in sin


When he returns to the father in repentance, the father says: this is my son WHO WAS DEAD, but is now alive AGAIN, he WAS LOST, but now IS FOUND.


Luk 15:32 It was meet that we should make merry, and be glad: for this thy brother *was dead*, and is *alive again*; and *was lost*, and *is found*.


He obviously wasn’t dead physically and resurrected.


How then was he dead?


He was dead in his sins.


Eph 2:1 And you hath he quickened,who *were dead* in *trespasses and sins*


Thus the son was alive, left his Father to live a sinful life, became DEAD in his sins, then returned in repentance, and became alive AGAIN.


In Luke 8 Jesus tells the parable of the sower who sows the seed of the word of God.


Some seed sown lands on a rock. The seed GROWS, and new life BEGINS, but then it withers and dies.


Jesus makes it clear that the example of the seed sown on a rock, shows that some people BELIEVE for a while, but then FALL AWAY.


Luk 8:5 A sower went out to sow his seed...


Luk 8:6 And some fell upon a rock; and as soon as it was SPRUNG UP, it withered away, because it lacked moisture.


Luk 8:13 They on the rock are they, which, when they hear, *receive the word with joy*; and these have no root, which FOR A WHILE BELIEVE, and in time of temptation FALL AWAY.


Notice above, they *received the word with joy*


To receive the word with joy, is to become a follower of Jesus Christ:


1Th 1:6 And ye became *followers of us, and of the Lord*, having ‘*received the word* in much affliction, *with joy* of the Holy Ghost.


Some believe for a while, then fall away.

 

[chad kincham]

I would like to clear it up. As I said on another thread, To me how can you not believe in it? You have to keep being saved over and over again otherwise? So once isn't enough for you? That would seem to say that being saved is meaningless if you can't count on it to stick around.
Any theories, thoughts, etc?

The

 

[returntosender]

This thread is winding down. Be prepared when that time comes to give a summation of your thoughts through this ordeal, thanks

 

[chad kincham]

I would like to clear it up. As I said on another thread, To me how can you not believe in it? You have to keep being saved over and over again otherwise? So once isn't enough for you? That would seem to say that being saved is meaningless if you can't count on it to stick around.
Any theories, thoughts, etc?

The prodigal son.


In the prodigal son story, the father represents God, thus the son represents believers who are Gods adopted sons.


He’s already a son when the story starts.


He leaves the father to live in sin


When he returns to the father in repentance, the father says: this is my son WHO WAS DEAD, but is now alive AGAIN, he WAS LOST, but now IS FOUND.


Luk 15:32 It was meet that we should make merry, and be glad: for this thy brother *was dead*, and is *alive again*; and *was lost*, and *is found*.


He obviously wasn’t dead physically and resurrected.


How then was he dead?


He was dead in his sins.


Eph 2:1 And you hath he quickened,who *were dead* in *trespasses and sins*


Thus the son was alive, left his Father to live a sinful life, became DEAD in his sins, then returned in repentance, and became alive AGAIN.


In Luke 8 Jesus tells the parable of the sower who sows the seed of the word of God.


Some seed sown lands on a rock. The seed grows, and results in new life, but then it withers and dies.


Jesus makes it clear that in the example of the seed sown on a rock, shows that some people BELIEVE for a while, but then FALL AWAY.


Luk 8:5 A sower went out to sow his seed...


Luk 8:6 And some fell upon a rock; and as soon as it was sprung up, it withered away, because it lacked moisture.


Luk 8:13 They on the rock are they, which, when they hear, *receive the word with joy*; and these have no root, which FOR A WHILE BELIEVE, and in time of temptation FALL AWAY.


Notice above, they *received the word with joy*


To receive the word with joy, is to become a follower of Jesus Christ:


1Th 1:6 And ye became *followers of us, and of the Lord*, having ‘*received the word* in much affliction, *with joy* of the Holy Ghost.


Some believe for a while, then fall away.

 

[1an]

Paul below makes it clear that the believer has SECURITY.

And those He predestined, He also called; those He called, He also justified; those He justified, He also glorified (Romans 8:30).

Aorist active indicative which means a completed action in the past. So believers have been justified and glorified in Christ. Its a done deal. No wiggling out of that BH. Jesus accomplished this for us at the cross. Its been completed for us by Christ out justification and glorification. We are already seated(past tense) in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus ( Ephesians 2:4-6).

Its time you believe Gods word and not your doctrine.

hope this helps !!!

In the previous verse

Romans 8:29 KJV For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

it tells us we will be conformed to the image of his Son and when I think how Jesus suffered, so did Paul, terribly, and so did the apostles, I assume you know how they died, I'm not sure I want to be in the image and likeness of these warriors for God. I have suffered enough for my faith already.
.

 

[1an]

Oh, and in case you don't remember what post it is, it is post #998.

Paul was elected to a life of hardship.

 

[returntosender]

Paul was elected to a life of hardship.

I was thinking that earlier today. That they should have suffered so much us knowing who they are and what they did. So very sad for them.

 

[1an]

I was thinking that earlier today. That they should have suffered so much us knowing who they are and what they did. So very sad for them.

When these people lay their life on the alter for God, we will know they have been elected to do His will.
.

 

[ViaCrucis]

I would like to clear it up. As I said on another thread, To me how can you not believe in it?

Because Scripture does not teach it and it has never been the teaching of the Christian Church.

You have to keep being saved over and over again otherwise?

No, that's ridiculous. We have our assurance in Christ, because of God's own word and promises. Thus we can be confident that on account of the Word which we have heard, the Baptism we have received, in the Eucharist which we celebrate that we belong to God, we have been sealed by the Holy Spirit, and there is no power that can separate us from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus.

So once isn't enough for you?

One doesn't get saved over and over again. There is only one salvation.

That would seem to say that being saved is meaningless if you can't count on it to stick around.
Any theories, thoughts, etc?

I think you might not understand the views of those outside of the Reformed framework.

My chief issue with "OSAS" is that, counter-intuitively, it denies assurance of salvation. This is going to sound like a very bold claim, but let me elaborate:

Under OSAS if a person believes, but then later abandons the faith, the advocate of OSAS will argue that this person never believed in the first place. Why is this a problem? Because it destroys the very foundation of our hope, confidence, and trust in Jesus Christ.

The person who says, "I believe!", under OSAS, lives under a precarious rock that seems like it might fall at any given moment and crush them--for how can I know that I truly believe rather than just imagine I believe? Seeing as one can truly believe that they believe, but not actually believe, since if they fall away they never truly believed in the first place, then it is impossible to ever know if one has true faith or some kind of false faith. This is, I think, why so many who subscribe to this in the modern Evangelical world, especially those who also subscribe to Decisionist theology, feel the need to emphasize things like sincerity, and "really meaning it", and placing all the onus of one's salvation on a particular kind of "salvation experience". And why, then also, there is often a seeming compulsion to, when speaking with other Christians, to pester and badger with questions like, "Are you absolutely sure you're born again?" "Are you absolutely sure this or that" Everything falls back upon the person and their own ability to have been sincere enough, and then hope that they never fall away or discover that they didn't "really really believe".

Under a strictly Calvinist system, where the entirety of TULIP is accepted, this isn't quite as problematic; but it still has the significant problem--then--of how can one know if one is truly a member of the elect or simply thinks they are. So while it's not an identical problem, it remains the same fundamental problem at its foundation.

Instead our assurance comes from Christ, on account of God's own word, His own promises. Therefore we can trust God's word that we belong to Him, because we can look outside of ourselves to Christ, to Christ's work, and to the Means of Grace. I belong to Jesus Christ because I am a baptized believer in Jesus Christ. I can look to the preached word of the Gospel, it is Christ's own word by which I have faith, and Christ says here in His Gospel that He suffered and died for me. I can look to my baptism, whereby Christ claims me as His, for I have been sealed with the name of the Father, Son, and the Holy Spirit in that baptism. I can look to the Holy Eucharist, whereby in, with, and under this bread and wine there is very Jesus Christ, His own true flesh and true blood which was broken and shed for me.

And thus I can look outside of myself, to Christ, who saves me. It is in this that I have assurance and confidence, security in the salvation which God has wrought by His own grace.

If I willfully abandon Christ, turn away, walk away, and actively shipwreck my faith, then I am throwing away my salvation. Does that mean I will have to "get saved" again? Of course not, rather Christ teaches us that He is the Good Shepherd who comes searching high and low to find just one lost lamb. Christ teaches that God the Father is a loving Father who runs out to embrace the prodigal child. If we throw away everything, and go live among pigs and eating pig slop, the Lord is always there calling us, beckoning us to return, and He comes running after us. We can therefore repent and be restored. The Lord is not cruel holding any away, but beckons all to Himself.

I don't believe in OSAS, I instead believe in the assurance of the Gospel.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[Jesus is YHWH]

In the previous verse

Romans 8:29 KJV For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

it tells us we will be conformed to the image of his Son and when I think how Jesus suffered, so did Paul, terribly, and so did the apostles, I assume you know how they died, I'm not sure I want to be in the image and likeness of these warriors for God. I have suffered enough for my faith already.
.

Yes that is another promise-guarantee.

 

[RickReads]

Because Scripture does not teach it and it has never been the teaching of the Christian Church.



No, that's ridiculous. We have our assurance in Christ, because of God's own word and promises. Thus we can be confident that on account of the Word which we have heard, the Baptism we have received, in the Eucharist which we celebrate that we belong to God, we have been sealed by the Holy Spirit, and there is no power that can separate us from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus.




One doesn't get saved over and over again. There is only one salvation.



I think you might not understand the views of those outside of the Reformed framework.

My chief issue with "OSAS" is that, counter-intuitively, it denies assurance of salvation. This is going to sound like a very bold claim, but let me elaborate:

Under OSAS if a person believes, but then later abandons the faith, the advocate of OSAS will argue that this person never believed in the first place. Why is this a problem? Because it destroys the very foundation of our hope, confidence, and trust in Jesus Christ.

The person who says, "I believe!", under OSAS, lives under a precarious rock that seems like it might fall at any given moment and crush them--for how can I know that I truly believe rather than just imagine I believe? Seeing as one can truly believe that they believe, but not actually believe, since if they fall away they never truly believed in the first place, then it is impossible to ever know if one has true faith or some kind of false faith. This is, I think, why so many who subscribe to this in the modern Evangelical world, especially those who also subscribe to Decisionist theology, feel the need to emphasize things like sincerity, and "really meaning it", and placing all the onus of one's salvation on a particular kind of "salvation experience". And why, then also, there is often a seeming compulsion to, when speaking with other Christians, to pester and badger with questions like, "Are you absolutely sure you're born again?" "Are you absolutely sure this or that" Everything falls back upon the person and their own ability to have been sincere enough, and then hope that they never fall away or discover that they didn't "really really believe".

Under a strictly Calvinist system, where the entirety of TULIP is accepted, this isn't quite as problematic; but it still has the significant problem--then--of how can one know if one is truly a member of the elect or simply thinks they are. So while it's not an identical problem, it remains the same fundamental problem at its foundation.

Instead our assurance comes from Christ, on account of God's own word, His own promises. Therefore we can trust God's word that we belong to Him, because we can look outside of ourselves to Christ, to Christ's work, and to the Means of Grace. I belong to Jesus Christ because I am a baptized believer in Jesus Christ. I can look to the preached word of the Gospel, it is Christ's own word by which I have faith, and Christ says here in His Gospel that He suffered and died for me. I can look to my baptism, whereby Christ claims me as His, for I have been sealed with the name of the Father, Son, and the Holy Spirit in that baptism. I can look to the Holy Eucharist, whereby in, with, and under this bread and wine there is very Jesus Christ, His own true flesh and true blood which was broken and shed for me.

And thus I can look outside of myself, to Christ, who saves me. It is in this that I have assurance and confidence, security in the salvation which God has wrought by His own grace.

If I willfully abandon Christ, turn away, walk away, and actively shipwreck my faith, then I am throwing away my salvation. Does that mean I will have to "get saved" again? Of course not, rather Christ teaches us that He is the Good Shepherd who comes searching high and low to find just one lost lamb. Christ teaches that God the Father is a loving Father who runs out to embrace the prodigal child. If we throw away everything, and go live among pigs and eating pig slop, the Lord is always there calling us, beckoning us to return, and He comes running after us. We can therefore repent and be restored. The Lord is not cruel holding any away, but beckons all to Himself.

I don't believe in OSAS, I instead believe in the assurance of the Gospel.

-CryptoLutheran

Someone who falls away stops believing. Someone might misunderstand or misstate but no such thing as imaginary belief.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

My comments in ()

To help you out, you can learn how to multiquote by checking out my help tutorial by clicking on the spoiler button (if it sounds like your cup of tea).

Spoiler

Introduction:

You can see the end quote below is highlighted in blue.
Whenever you quote a post, it will add automatically a beginning quote (with your username), and an ending quote. Again, notice the end quote highlighted below.

Step 1. Cut and paste the end quote at the bottom and move it up to the top of the first part of the words you want to quote within a person's post. In this example (below), lets say you want to quote the words “Thank you” in order to reply to them. Just make sure you have an end quote after their words.

You can type out this end quote yourself if needed.

Step 2.

Now lets say you want to quote the next words that say, “Pretty amazing thing.” Use your mouse to highlight over these words as seen in the pic below.

Step 3.

Click on the quote button in your toolbox.

The result will then look like this below (after clicking on the quote button).

Note:

Now, lets say you want to quote the next set of words that say, “Thanks for the kind comments.”
Just repeat step 2, and step 3, and it will look like this below.

Step 4.

In this next step. Lets say you want to clarify in who you are quoting in the second set of words for the person you want to quote. I like to use the word “you” when multi-quoting. But you can add the poster's name if you like. In this example: Add the “=” symbol, and then the words “you” [or the poster's name”] within the brackets (as seen in the highlighted part below).

Step 5.

Type in your replies. Note: An example of my reply is highlighted below. Check out the example to follow below.

Step 6.

Hit the red button called “Post Reply” or go to the red button called “More Options” and then select the Preview option before you post, and the end result will look like this below.

I hope this was helpful.
And may God bless you.


Side Note:

If you have any questions or need help with this, let me know.

Peace, and blessings be unto you in the Lord.

 

[1an]

Yes that is another promise-guarantee.

1. Correct. However the Bible warns against falling away. Do not deny that which is writ clear and plain.

2. It says the elect will be conformed to the image of the Son, I am still waiting.
.

 

[Jesus is YHWH]

1. Correct. However the Bible warns against falling away.
2. It says the elect will be conformed to the image of the Son, whic I have not seen.
.

The gospels tell us many disciples turned away( fell away) from Jesus because His teaching was to hard for them. They never counted the cost of discipleship. They were never His to begin with just followed Him for insincere reasons just like the rich young ruler whom Jesus knew his heart and confronting him with the real issues. The sin of mammon. You cannot serve 2 masters. Then the disciples knowing this man appeared righteous before all said who then can be saved ? With man its impossible but not with God. Salvation is of the Lord. Scriptures declares He saves us and that not by works or ourselves. He who began a good work in you will see it through until the day of Christ. No one can snatch one of His sheep from His hands. Jesus saves us and keeps us saved just as the Good Shepherd does with His sheep and the one who strays, He leaves the 99 to go and get back the one.

hope this helps !!!

 

[1an]

The gospels tell us many disciples turned away( fell away) from Jesus because His teaching was to hard for them. They never counted the cost of discipleship. They were never His to begin with just followed Him for insincere reasons just like the rich young ruler whom Jesus knew his heart and confronting him with the real issues. The sin of mammon. You cannot serve 2 masters. Then the disciples knowing this man appeared righteous before all said who then can be saved ? With man its impossible but not with God. Salvation is of the Lord. Scriptures declares He saves us and that not by works or ourselves. He who began a good work in you will see it through until the day of Christ. No one can snatch one of His sheep from His hands. Jesus saves us and keeps us saved just as the Good Shepherd does with His sheep and the one who strays, He leaves the 99 to go and get back the one.

hope this helps !!!

I am fed up with hearing excuses. That does not look well on your character reference sheet. I am looking for the glory of the Lord shining out from you, but all I am seeing is someone, pretty much like those backsliders.
.

 

[Jesus is YHWH]

I am fed up with hearing excuses. That does not look well on your character reference sheet. I am looking for the glory of the Lord shining out from you, but all I am seeing is someone, pretty much like those backsliders.
.

That ironic since I'm answering with scripture not my opinion. I'm sorry you feel that way.

 

[1an]

That ironic since I'm answering with scripture not my opinion. I'm sorry you feel that way.

While bypassing scripture you do not accept, the same as the cults. Says it all really.
.