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want to talk about OSAS?

Are you an OSAS believer?

  • yes

    Votes: 27 43.5%
  • no

    Votes: 32 51.6%
  • of course

    Votes: 3 4.8%

  • Total voters
    62

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I would like to clear it up. As I said on another thread, To me how can you not believe in it?

We don't believe in OSAS because Scripture teaches against it on practically every page in the New Testament.

There are many ways to demolish OSAS (Once Saved Always saved), Eternal Security, and or Perseverance of the Saints (POTS) by reading and believing your own Bible. Click on the following links to take you to posts within this thread to learn more (with the Bible).

  1. Fall Away List of Verses.

  2. Serious Sin can Separate Us From God Verses.

  3. Verses on Sanctification Being a Part of Salvation.

  4. Obeying God’s Commands as a Part of Eternal Life Verses.

Bonus Point Verses.

If these lists are still not good enough for you, check out this general list of evidences that demolishes OSAS.

Long List of Verses Refuting OSAS or Eternal Security

Side Note:

I have provided a list of verses for each of these numbered points mentioned above; Just click on the link(s) (above), and you will be taken to the post that lists verses for that topic.

Side Note 2:

Oh, and in my experience: OSAS proof text verses ignore the context. For example: Many love to quote John 10:28, but they fail to point out that the kind of sheep that cannot be snatchd out of his hand are the kind of sheep that follow Jesus mentioned in verse 27 (John 10:27).

You said:
You have to keep being saved over and over again otherwise?

If one struggles with mortal sin, then yes. But a believer needs to eventually in time overcome mortal sin so when they do, getting saved over and over again will not be an issue. Galatians 5:24 says that they that are Christ's have crucified the affections and lusts. 2 Corinthians 7:1 says, “...let us cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit perfecting holiness in the fear of God.” Somehow I get the impression you don't believe 2 Corinthians 7:1 in what it plainly says. If you do, then explain to me how you actually believe it. What do you think it says? What do you think Galatians 5:24 says?

You said:
So once isn't enough for you?

The 144,000 were found without fault before the throne of God (See: Revelation 14:3-5).
If you read the context, this was in reference to their behavior or in regards to how they lived a holy life. They are future Messianic believers. So it could very well be that a believer can potentially be saved once and then live a holy life and not justify sin or think they can sin and still be saved by having a belief alone on Jesus. Believers can sell out to Jesus and walk holy only by God's power. But you may ask, “Where is the Christian who is living righteously?” We are living in the last days. 2 Timothy 3:1-9 says in the last days perilous times will come. It says men will be lovers of pleasure more than lovers of God. It says that they will have a form of godliness, but they deny the power therof. Jesus said as it was in the days of Noah, so shall it be in the coming of the Son of man. The world was destroyed by a global flood as example to all who will live ungodly thereafter according to the words of Peter.

What power can those who have a form of godliness be denying in 2 Timothy 3:1-9? The ability to overcome mortal sin by God's power. So it is today in the popular candy coated Christian world today that says one can sin and still be saved all because they have a belief on the finished work of Christ.

You said:
That would seem to say that being saved is meaningless if you can't count on it to stick around.

Things are not as we wish them to be. A person is only to blame themselves if they do not want salvation anymore. Salvation is not lost like unintentionally losing a pair of car keys. A person has to rebel against the Lord by justifying sin in order to do that. But God's grace is there for a person to seek forgiveness with the Lord Jesus Christ and to receive mercy again.

You said:
Any theories, thoughts, etc?

There are no theories of thoughts when it comes to establishing the truth in the Bible.
The Bible alone is our authority for all matters of faith and doctrine (Especially on the topics of sin and salvation).
 
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Albion

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There are many ways to demolish OSAS (Once Saved Always saved), Eternal Security, and or Perseverance of the Saints (POTS) by reading and believing your own Bible. Click on the following links to take you to posts within this thread to learn more (with the Bible).
None of these disproves OSAS, however.

I guess you assumed that they do.
 
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None of these disproves OSAS, however.

I guess you assumed that they do.

And you did not even look at the verses. It's like a book long list of verses for you to dig into and you just brushed them all away with a comment. That's not good.
 
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Albion

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And you did not even look at the verses. It's like a book long list of verses for you to dig into and you just brushed them all away with a comment. That's not good.
They don't deal with the same issue.
 
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Zao is life

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Then dont judge your brethren in the first place. If you are not humble enough to know you are filthy rags below the lord, grace isnt within you.
Are you 100% sure, before the Lord, that your accusation is according to truth? I never judged my brethren, and your accusation is false. I have accused no one, neither have I denied that my own good works are filthy rags. The spirit behind your interaction with me is not from God.
 
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Zao is life

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To sum up, it sounds like you DO believe you are saved by your works, even though you told us otherwise. At least, it's your works in conjunction with or along with your Faith.
No. My works before I believed in Jesus did not save me and could not save me. My works subsequent to my faith in Jesus cannot save me. Your words (false accusations against me being expressed here), are your works for the day, considered your "good" works by yourself, quite obviously, but that's between you and Jesus.

The Lord Jesus Christ knows the answer. He also knows whether or not what I said here now, is true. I guess you think He is not aware of every word we speak here.
 
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Zao is life

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But that wasn't the question.
want to talk about OSAS?
I can tell you why I do not believe in OSAS, and I did.

I can also tell you why I believe that Christians who are striving against their own sin and striving to submit to Christ, are not on the broad way, but on the narrow way.

I can also tell you why I believe that Christians who sin and then confess but think, "It's OK, because OSAS" are not on the narrow way, but on the broad way.

I can also tell you why I believe the OSAS protest that those who turn Christ's cross into a licence to sin "because OSAS" "were never Christians to begin with", is false and a cop-out.

So sorry that I never answered your question in your OP, though (whatever it was). It's now quite obvious by your response to me that your question in your OP is worded in such a way as to disallow people saying why they do not believe in OSAS, hence calculated to lead to (your) desired and desirable conclusion.
 
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chad kincham

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No, no I think you have missed the point. Nobody in this thread cares about weddings in the first century (they might in another context), the issue in discussion is Once Saved Always Saved, so unless you can make some analogy to Once Married, Always Married, then Jewish weddings have absolutely no relevance in the way the way a word relating to the topic is translated... particularly when the word you are questioning is just a synonym of the word you accept.

If you are going to use the original text, at least use it correctly.

Absolutely false. And I note you have no response to the rest of my comment.

There’s no essential difference between marriage in the OT and marriage today

Both Paul and Jesus quite Adam and Eve as the example of how marriage works.

Adultery breaks the marriage covenant in both covenants
 
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chad kincham

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Repentance and Conversion mean that we have been saved despite our sins.

If a person believes he is saved by "being good" then the idea of being in and out and in and out of God's graces would make sense, but that is contrary to the concept taught in the Bible, i.e. justification by Faith.

Try reading the rest of what I wrote.

You aren’t saved by being good.

AFTER salvation are expected and required as believers, to live the most sinless life we can, and to repent when we know we’ve sinned.


Scripture clearly shows that continuing to remain in Christ is conditional on us 1) continuing to walk in the light, as He is in the light, and 2) continue to walk after the spirit, instead of after the flesh.


In the two verses below, I put in parentheses the conditional part of these scriptures that are always left out by hyper-grace, OSAS teachers.


1Jn 1:7 (But IF we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another), and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.


The blood of Jesus cleansing the believer is conditional on their choosing to continue to walk in the light, as He is in the light.


Next:

Rom 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, (who walk NOT AFTER THE FLESH, , but after the Spirit).


Having no condemnation, and being in Christ, is conditional upon walking after the Spirit, and not after the flesh.


And Paul warns us against being deceived about living in sin as a believer, when he wrote:


Gal 6:7 Be Not DECEIVED ; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man SOWETH,that shall he also REAP.


Gal 6:8 For he that soweth to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption; BUT he that soweth to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting


You reap everlasting life only if you sow to the spirit (walk after the Spirit, Romans 8:1, above, but reap spiritual death if you sow to your flesh.


When we do occasionally sin, we must confess it, for God to forgive it. 1 John 1:9.


The lies of hyper grace are twofold: you don’t need to ever repent after salvation when you sin; and you can’t lose salvation.


This makes grace a license to sin, since sin has no eternal penalty.

(Paul also warned us about claiming grace is a license to sin.)

Thus if you want a mistress on the side, you can have one, and regularly commit adultery - or if you’re a drunkard you can get drunk every day - you can live a sinful lifestyle with impunity.

Scripture makes clear that after we have been saved, there is a continuing conflict between our wanting to walk in the flesh, (that wants us to live in sin)- and our desire to walk after the Holy Spirit that now dwells in us - and warns that choosing to live in sins (works of the flesh), will keep us out of heaven:


Gal 5:16 ThisI say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh.


Gal 5:17 For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would.


Gal 5:18 But IF ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law.


Gal 5:19 Now the WORKS OF THE FLESH are manifest, which are these;Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,


Gal 5:20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,


Gal 5:21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell YOU again, as I have also told youin time past, that they which DO such things shall NOT inherit the kingdom of God.


Paul warns us over and over, that if we choose to walk after the flesh, we will die spiritually - but if we choose to walk after the spirit, we will have everlasting life:


Rom 8:5 For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.


Rom 8:6 For to be carnally minded isDEATH, but to be spiritually minded isLIFE and peace.


Rom 8:7 Because the carnal mind isENMITY against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.


Rom 8:8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.


Verse 8:7 above, having a carnal mind is ENMITY against God, meaning you actually become Gods ENEMY.


Will God let His enemies into heaven?


Jas 4:4 Ye adulterers and adulteresses, know ye not that the friendship of the world is ENMITY with God? whosoever therefore will be a FRIEND OF THE WORLD is the ENEMY of God.


The verse above says sexual sins and being worldly, makes you Gods ENEMY.


Will God welcome His enemies into heaven?
 
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chad kincham

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Repentance and Conversion mean that we have been saved despite our sins.

If a person believes he is saved by "being good" then the idea of being in and out and in and out of God's graces would make sense, but that is contrary to the concept taught in the Bible, i.e. justification by Faith.

Try reading the rest of what I wrote.

You aren’t saved by being good.

AFTER salvation are expected and required as believers, to live the most sinless life we can, and to repent when we know we’ve sinned.


Scripture clearly shows that continuing to remain in Christ is conditional on us 1) continuing to walk in the light, as He is in the light, and 2) continue to walk after the spirit, instead of after the flesh.


In the two verses below, I put in parentheses the conditional part of these scriptures that are always left out by hyper-grace, OSAS teachers.


1Jn 1:7 (But IF we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another), and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.


The blood of Jesus cleansing the believer is conditional on their choosing to continue to walk in the light, as He is in the light.


Next:

Rom 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, (who walk NOT AFTER THE FLESH, , but after the Spirit).


Having no condemnation, and being in Christ, is conditional upon walking after the Spirit, and not after the flesh.


And Paul warns us against being deceived about living in sin as a believer, when he wrote:


Gal 6:7 Be Not DECEIVED ; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man SOWETH,that shall he also REAP.


Gal 6:8 For he that soweth to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption; BUT he that soweth to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting


You reap everlasting life only if you sow to the spirit (walk after the Spirit, Romans 8:1, above, but reap spiritual death if you sow to your flesh.


When we do occasionally sin, we must confess it, for God to forgive it. 1 John 1:9.


The lies of hyper grace are twofold: you don’t need to ever repent after salvation when you sin; and you can’t lose salvation.


This makes grace a license to sin, since sin has no eternal penalty.

(Paul also warned us about claiming grace is a license to sin.)

Thus if you want a mistress on the side, you can have one, and regularly commit adultery - or if you’re a drunkard you can get drunk every day - you can live a sinful lifestyle with impunity.

Scripture makes clear that after we have been saved, there is a continuing conflict between our wanting to walk in the flesh, (that wants us to live in sin)- and our desire to walk after the Holy Spirit that now dwells in us - and warns that choosing to live in sins (works of the flesh), will keep us out of heaven:


Gal 5:16 ThisI say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh.


Gal 5:17 For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would.


Gal 5:18 But IF ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law.


Gal 5:19 Now the WORKS OF THE FLESH are manifest, which are these;Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,


Gal 5:20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,


Gal 5:21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell YOU again, as I have also told youin time past, that they which DO such things shall NOT inherit the kingdom of God.


Paul warns us over and over, that if we choose to walk after the flesh, we will die spiritually - but if we choose to walk after the spirit, we will have everlasting life:


Rom 8:5 For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.


Rom 8:6 For to be carnally minded isDEATH, but to be spiritually minded isLIFE and peace.


Rom 8:7 Because the carnal mind isENMITY against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.


Rom 8:8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.


Verse 8:7 above, having a carnal mind is ENMITY against God, meaning you actually become Gods ENEMY.


Will God let His enemies into heaven?


Jas 4:4 Ye adulterers and adulteresses, know ye not that the friendship of the world is ENMITY with God? whosoever therefore will be a FRIEND OF THE WORLD is the ENEMY of God.


The verse above says sexual sins and being worldly, makes you Gods ENEMY.


Will God welcome His enemies into heaven?
 
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chad kincham

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Repentance and Conversion mean that we have been saved despite our sins.

If a person believes he is saved by "being good" then the idea of being in and out and in and out of God's graces would make sense, but that is contrary to the concept taught in the Bible, i.e. justification by Faith.

Try reading the rest of what I wrote.

You aren’t saved by being good.

AFTER salvation are expected and required as believers, to live the most sinless life we can, and to repent when we know we’ve sinned.


Scripture clearly shows that continuing to remain in Christ is conditional on us 1) continuing to walk in the light, as He is in the light, and 2) continue to walk after the spirit, instead of after the flesh.


In the two verses below, I put in parentheses the conditional part of these scriptures that are always left out by hyper-grace, OSAS teachers.


1Jn 1:7 (But IF we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another), and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.


The blood of Jesus cleansing the believer is conditional on their choosing to continue to walk in the light, as He is in the light.


Next:

Rom 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, (who walk NOT AFTER THE FLESH, , but after the Spirit).


Having no condemnation, and being in Christ, is conditional upon walking after the Spirit, and not after the flesh.


And Paul warns us against being deceived about living in sin as a believer, when he wrote:


Gal 6:7 Be Not DECEIVED ; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man SOWETH,that shall he also REAP.


Gal 6:8 For he that soweth to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption; BUT he that soweth to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting


You reap everlasting life only if you sow to the spirit (walk after the Spirit, Romans 8:1, above, but reap spiritual death if you sow to your flesh.


When we do occasionally sin, we must confess it, for God to forgive it. 1 John 1:9.


The lies of hyper grace are twofold: you don’t need to ever repent after salvation when you sin; and you can’t lose salvation.


This makes grace a license to sin, since sin has no eternal penalty.

(Paul also warned us about claiming grace is a license to sin.)

Thus if you want a mistress on the side, you can have one, and regularly commit adultery - or if you’re a drunkard you can get drunk every day - you can live a sinful lifestyle with impunity.

Scripture makes clear that after we have been saved, there is a continuing conflict between our wanting to walk in the flesh, (that wants us to live in sin)- and our desire to walk after the Holy Spirit that now dwells in us - and warns that choosing to live in sins (works of the flesh), will keep us out of heaven:


Gal 5:16 ThisI say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh.


Gal 5:17 For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would.


Gal 5:18 But IF ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law.


Gal 5:19 Now the WORKS OF THE FLESH are manifest, which are these;Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,


Gal 5:20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,


Gal 5:21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell YOU again, as I have also told youin time past, that they which DO such things shall NOT inherit the kingdom of God.


Paul warns us over and over, that if we choose to walk after the flesh, we will die spiritually - but if we choose to walk after the spirit, we will have everlasting life:


Rom 8:5 For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.


Rom 8:6 For to be carnally minded isDEATH, but to be spiritually minded isLIFE and peace.


Rom 8:7 Because the carnal mind isENMITY against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.


Rom 8:8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.


Verse 8:7 above, having a carnal mind is ENMITY against God, meaning you actually become Gods ENEMY.


Will God let His enemies into heaven?


Jas 4:4 Ye adulterers and adulteresses, know ye not that the friendship of the world is ENMITY with God? whosoever therefore will be a FRIEND OF THE WORLD is the ENEMY of God.


The verse above says sexual sins and being worldly, makes you Gods ENEMY.


Will God welcome His enemies into heaven?
 
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Albion

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You aren’t saved by being good.

AFTER salvation are expected and required as believers, to live the most sinless life we can, and to repent when we know we’ve sinned.
I don't think anyone disputes this.


Scripture clearly shows that continuing to remain in Christ is conditional on us 1) continuing to walk in the light, as He is in the light, and 2) continue to walk after the spirit, instead of after the flesh.
But that clarification, if that is what it is, does not say anything about OSAS, one way or the other. Therefore...what?
 
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chad kincham

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Repentance and Conversion mean that we have been saved despite our sins.

If a person believes he is saved by "being good" then the idea of being in and out and in and out of God's graces would make sense, but that is contrary to the concept taught in the Bible, i.e. justification by Faith.

Try reading the rest of what I wrote.

You aren’t saved by being good.

AFTER salvation are expected and required as believers, to live the most sinless life we can, and to repent when we know we’ve sinned.


Scripture clearly shows that continuing to remain in Christ is conditional on us 1) continuing to walk in the light, as He is in the light, and 2) continue to walk after the spirit, instead of after the flesh.


In the two verses below, I put in parentheses the conditional part of these scriptures that are always left out by hyper-grace, OSAS teachers.


1Jn 1:7 (But IF we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another), and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.


The blood of Jesus cleansing the believer is conditional on their choosing to continue to walk in the light, as He is in the light.


Next:

Rom 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, (who walk NOT AFTER THE FLESH, , but after the Spirit).


Having no condemnation, and being in Christ, is conditional upon walking after the Spirit, and not after the flesh.


And Paul warns us against being deceived about living in sin as a believer, when he wrote:


Gal 6:7 Be Not DECEIVED ; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man SOWETH,that shall he also REAP.


Gal 6:8 For he that soweth to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption; BUT he that soweth to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting


You reap everlasting life only if you sow to the spirit (walk after the Spirit, Romans 8:1, above, but reap spiritual death if you sow to your flesh.


When we do occasionally sin, we must confess it, for God to forgive it. 1 John 1:9.


The lies of hyper grace are twofold: you don’t need to ever repent after salvation when you sin; and you can’t lose salvation.


This makes grace a license to sin, since sin has no eternal penalty.

(Paul also warned us about claiming grace is a license to sin.)

Thus if you want a mistress on the side, you can have one, and regularly commit adultery - or if you’re a drunkard you can get drunk every day - you can live a sinful lifestyle with impunity.





No, no I think you have missed the point. Nobody in this thread cares about weddings in the first century (they might in another context), the issue in discussion is Once Saved Always Saved, so unless you can make some analogy to Once Married, Always Married, then Jewish weddings have absolutely no relevance in the way the way a word relating to the topic is translated... particularly when the word you are questioning is just a synonym of the word you accept.

If you are going to use the original text, at least use it correctly.

Both Jesus and Paul use Adam and Eve and also quote the Genesis clause regarding marriage, that two become one and cleave together - thus marriage has not changed between the OT and NT.

Earthly marriage has always been symbolic of marriage between God and His bride.

Israel is called Gods elect bride and in the new covenant believers are the bride of Jesus.

My analogy is spot-on, and your retort is absolutely erroneous, it has everything to do with the topic of OSAS.
 
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chad kincham

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I don't think anyone disputes this.



But that clarification, if that is what it is, does not say anything about OSAS, one way or the other. Therefore...what?

Try reading what I wrote instead of copying snippets out of context, then pretending those snippets are all wrote.
 
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Silly Uncle Wayne

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Absolutely false. And I note you have no response to the rest of my comment.

There’s no essential difference between marriage in the OT and marriage today

Both Paul and Jesus quite Adam and Eve as the example of how marriage works.

Adultery breaks the marriage covenant in both covenants

I can explain why I didn't respond to the rest of your comment. It was because I wasn't responding to ANY of your comment (unless you have more than one account, which would be a bit disingenuous.

Additionally the point I'm making is that this discussion on marriage (and now adultery) has nothing to do with the thread.
 
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Silly Uncle Wayne

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both Jesus and Paul use Adam and Eve and also quote the Genesis clause regarding marriage, that the two become one and cleave together - thus marriage has not changed between the OT and NT.
I'm not sure what your point is given that I never said there was any difference between the two.
 
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chad kincham

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No, no I think you have missed the point. Nobody in this thread cares about weddings in the first century (they might in another context), the issue in discussion is Once Saved Always Saved, so unless you can make some analogy to Once Married, Always Married, then Jewish weddings have absolutely no relevance in the way the way a word relating to the topic is translated... particularly when the word you are questioning is just a synonym of the word you accept.

If you are going to use the original text, at least use it correctly.
You completely missed the point as wedding today has a completely different meaning from that in biblical times.

No, it doesn’t.

Both Jesus and Paul cite Adam and Eve as the example of what marriage is, and both quote the Genesis marriage clause, that the two cleave together and become one.

And adultery breaks the marriage covenant in the OT and NT, just like it broke the marriage covenant with Israel, and God divorced them because of spiritual adultery.
 
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chad kincham

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I can explain why I didn't respond to the rest of your comment. It was because I wasn't responding to ANY of your comment (unless you have more than one account, which would be a bit disingenuous.

Additionally the point I'm making is that this discussion on marriage (and now adultery) has nothing to do with the thread.

Except my analogy between OSAS and God divorcing Israel for continually sinning, and committing spiritual adultery, is spot-on and on topic.

It works the same way today.

Continually sinning as a believer breaks the marriage covenant with Jesus, and there is a divorce, and they don’t remain in Christ, nor remain saved.

Im surprised I have to explain the obvious to you.
 
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