want to talk about OSAS?

[Danigt22]

Yeah well if you are still going around murdering people and committing adultery, you might want to put an end to that.

By judging you brethren, you have judge yourself. Im guilty but under grace, on the other hand you reject that same grace. Have you ever watch pornography once, have you ever felt any amount of lust to a married woman, have you ever tell a lie. What do you call a person who commits just one crime. Isnt him a criminal? Are you free of all guilt? If you break one law, you are guilty of all.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

That still doesn't have anything to do with OSAS.

I have been studying OSAS folk for many years like a detective. I listened to them and heard them speak their beliefs over and over again. There are three major different OSAS Proponents.

#1. Hardcore OSAS Proponents (Hyper Grace)
(This belief is growing in these last days).
These types believe you can sin as much as you want and you are still saved. Lookup George Sodini. He was a believer who murdered a bunch of people and then took his own life. In his own suicide letter, he wrote that he was saved by believing in the finished work of Christ, and that his future sins were paid for. Even his own Pastor and the church he went to had said George was saved despite his grizzly incident. Sounds like the same tune that many in the OSAS camp sing today.

#2. Mid Range OSAS (The most popular flavor of OSAS today).
This is the view that a believer must generally live a holy life but if a believer dies in one or two unconfessed sins, that does not mean they are unsaved. Some in this group appear to be for holy living, but when push comes to shove, they appear to fit into the Hardcore or Hyper Grace camp instead. If they discover a believer justifying sin and or not confessing their sin, then they will say that they were never born again to begin with.

#3. OSAS Lite (Super Strict on Holy Living)
These types are more rare. They are essentially saying the same thing as above; But they are more strict on holy living and they do not believe a Christian can die in unconfessed sin and still be saved. They believe in order for OSAS to be true, the believer has to confess and forsake sin or they were never born again to begin with.

 

[Swag365]

By judging you brethren, you have judge yourself. Im guilty but under grace, on the other hand you reject that same grace.

Look up "if" in a dictionary.

 

[Albion]

I have been studying OSAS folk for many years like a detective. I listened to them and heard them speak their beliefs over and over again. There are three major different OSAS Proponents.

Wait a minute! After all that I wrote, you're going down that rabbit hole of a diversion once again??

This is about OSAS; it is not about what people who claim to understand OSAS--but do not--have to say about their own personal situations or about their own versions of OSAS, either.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

By judging you brethren, you have judge yourself. Im guilty but under grace, on the other hand you reject that same grace. Have you ever watch pornography once, have you ever felt any amount of lust to a married woman, have you ever tell a lie. What do you call a person who commits just one crime. Isnt him a criminal? Are you free of all guilt? If you break one law, you are guilty of all.

I am just trying to wrap my head around how you interpret the words of Jesus in Matthew 5:28-30, and Matthew 7:23. Do you actually believe the kind of belief you are peddling? How can God agree with your thinking that you can sin and still be saved? God is holy, and good and righteous.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Wait a minute! After all that I wrote, you're going down that rabbit hole of a diversion once again??

This is about OSAS; it is not about what people who claim to understand OSAS--but do not--have to say about their own personal situations or about their own versions of OSAS, either.

Your not getting it. We are to be holy and separate from that which is darkness. If another group is claiming to do evil things as a part of the OSAS label, don't you think you need to come up with a new label to separate yourself from them?

On top of that, the message sounds the same. Believe in the finished work of Christ, and you are not saved by your works or anything you do, etc. But the problem is that the message itself can lead a child into sin even if that was not your intention by such a message. Also, if you tell a person OSAS is true, then they look up Hardcore OSAS, or Hyper Grace, they are going to see you in a false light by that very name. They can be led into a false belief because of the label you carry. Therein lies the problem in putting on your OSAS patch label or pin.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

 

[Albion]

Your not getting it. We are to be holy and separate from that which is darkness.

No one is failing to get that. Do you want now to return to the topic of this thread--OSAS?

If another group is claiming to do evil things as a part of the OSAS label, don't you think you need to come up with a new label to separate yourself from them?

"I" have no authorization to do that. What I can do is say that you are still pointing to people who do NOT understand OSAS and talking as though their mistake defines OSAS. That is just nonsense.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

No one is failing to get that. Do you want now to return to the topic of this thread--OSAS?


"I" have no authorization to do that. What I can do is say that you are still pointing to people who do NOT understand OSAS and talking as though their mistake defines OSAS. That is just nonsense.

So your saying you would not be responsible for leading a person into hardcore OSAS if you simply told him OSAS is true? I am not buying that one. That would be like saying, do drugs because they are good for you, and then not clarifying what you meant. You could be referring to pharmacy drugs. But if you did not clarify that point, many folks can think you are promoting bad drugs by your own words and if they act on your words, you would be to blame. The same is true if you tell others OSAS is true. They could go to the bad version of OSAS and see you many years later and thank you for your tip into looking OSAS. But if they believed in the Hyper Grace Hardcore OSAS that you consider to be false, you would still be at fault because you did not clarify the difference. Therein lies the problem in holding to the OSAS label and message. It all sounds the same. But your version is different. But if you did not clarify that with them because you did not have the time to do so, then you would be at fault for leading down a wrong path or road.

 

[Albion]

So your saying you would not be responsible for leading a person into hardcore OSAS if you simply told him OSAS is true?

I am discussing the truth or falsity of Eternal Security here. That's the topic. If you'd like to discuss that as well, please do.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

I am discussing the truth or falsity of Eternal Security here. That's the topic. If you'd like to discuss that as well, please do.

What I said stands. I made my case in what I was trying to say and your not getting it. I am moving on with you on this point, friend.

May God's good ways be upon you.

 

[RickReads]

I agree with your two statements that say:

#1. We are only obligated to keep the righteousness of/moral Law.
#2. Laws that pertained to Israel as a physical country(including health laws) and laws that pertained to the levite priesthood were suspended.

But I disagree that Jesus was not changing the Law, my brother.

I believe Jesus was making changes to the Old Law in preparation to the change of the New Covenant that went officially into effect with His death:

Biblical proof?

Jesus clearly was making changes to the Law (even before the cross):
(Which means He was not teaching primarily Old Covenant, but New Covenant):

The Old Way says:
"Ye have heard that it hath been said, An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth"
(Matthew 5:38 cf. Exodus 21:23-25).

The New Way (by Jesus) says:
"But I say unto you, That ye resist not evil: but whosoever shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also." (Matthew 5:39).


The Old Way says:
"Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not kill; and whosoever shall kill shall be in danger of the judgment" (Matthew 5:21 cf. Numbers 35:30-32).

The New Way (by Jesus) says:
"But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire." (Matthew 5:22).


The Old Way says:
"Again, ye have heard that it hath been said by them of old time, Thou shalt not forswear thyself, but shalt perform unto the Lord thine oaths:" (Matthew 5:34 cf. Numbers 30:1-2, Deuteronomy 23:21).

The New Way (by Jesus) says:
34 "But I say unto you, Swear not at all; neither by heaven; for it is God's throne:
35 Nor by the earth; for it is his footstool: neither by Jerusalem; for it is the city of the great King.
36 Neither shalt thou swear by thy head, because thou canst not make one hair white or black.
37 But let your communication be, Yea, yea; Nay, nay: for whatsoever is more than these cometh of evil." (Matthew 5:34-37).


The Old Way says:
"And of thy mercy cut off mine enemies, and destroy all them that afflict my soul: for I am thy servant." (Psalms 143:12).

"And the city shall be accursed, even it, and all that are therein, to the LORD: only Rahab the harlot shall live, she and all that are with her in the house, because she hid the messengers that we sent." (Joshua 6:17).

"And they utterly destroyed all that was in the city, both man and woman, young and old, and ox, and sheep, and ass, with the edge of the sword." (Joshua 6:21).

16 "But of the cities of these people, which the LORD thy God doth give thee for an inheritance, thou shalt save alive nothing that breatheth:
17 But thou shalt utterly destroy them; namely, the Hittites, and the Amorites, the Canaanites, and the Perizzites, the Hivites, and the Jebusites; as the LORD thy God hath commanded thee" (Deuteronomy 20:16-17).

"They did not destroy the nations, concerning whom the LORD commanded them" (Psalms 106:34).

The New Way (by Jesus) says:
"But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;" (Matthew 5:44).

Note: Yes, I am aware that the Old Way (Old Testament) also teaches to love one's enemies (Exodus 23:4-5) (Proverbs 25:21), but this was in context to their own Israelite people, and not pagan nations. Pagan nations were to be destroyed when God commanded the Israelites to destroy them. But Jesus taught a radically different way. Love your enemies, and do good to them that hate you, and to pray for those who persecute you.


The Old Way says:
20 "But if this thing be true, and the tokens of virginity be not found for the damsel:
21 Then they shall bring out the damsel to the door of her father's house, and the men of her city shall stone her with stones that she die: because she hath wrought folly in Israel, to play the harlot in her father's house: so shalt thou put evil away from among you.
22 If a man be found lying with a woman married to an husband, then they shall both of them die, both the man that lay with the woman, and the woman: so shalt thou put away evil from Israel." (Deuteronomy 22:20-22).

4 "They say unto him, Master, this woman was taken in adultery, in the very act.
5 Now Moses in the law commanded us, that such should be stoned: but what sayest thou?" (John 8:4-5).

The New Way (by Jesus) says:
"He that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone at her. " (John 8:7).


Even after the cross, there were changes being made:

The Old Covenant says this about circumcision:
"And the uncircumcised man child whose flesh of his foreskin is not circumcised, that soul shall be cut off from his people; he hath broken my covenant." (Genesis 17:14).

Yet, the New Covenant says this about circumcision:
"Behold, I Paul say unto you, that if ye be circumcised, Christ shall profit you nothing." (Galatians 5:2).


The Old Covenant says this about the Sabbath:
32 "And while the children of Israel were in the wilderness, they found a man that gathered sticks upon the sabbath day.
33 And they that found him gathering sticks brought him unto Moses and Aaron, and unto all the congregation.
34 And they put him in ward, because it was not declared what should be done to him.
35 And the Lord said unto Moses, The man shall be surely put to death: all the congregation shall stone him with stones without the camp.
36 And all the congregation brought him without the camp, and stoned him with stones, and he died; as the Lord commanded Moses." (Numbers 15:32-36).

Yet, the New Covenant says this about the Sabbath:
"Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days:" (Colossians 2:16).

So it appears things have changed.

This makes sense because again, Hebrews 7:12 says the Law has changed.

"For the priesthood being changed, there is made of necessity a change also of the law."
(Hebrews 7:12).

“For the law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ.”
(John 1:17).

Jesus said,
"Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil." (Matthew 5:17).

Jesus came not to abolish the Law (in the sense of destroying all forms of Law), but Jesus came to fulfill the Law (i.e. to nail to the cross those ordinances that were against us [like the Old Covenant ceremonial laws], and Jesus came to give us a more fulfilled and perfect way of obeying God via the commands that come directly from Him and His followers). For Jesus offered a more perfect way of loving God, and loving our neighbor (Which of course is only possible via if we are first saved by God's grace through faith).

My four catagories are just an aid that helps me understand the purposes of Laws. I think saying He changed law is fine. I prefer to say clarify because the word is more benign and it makes it less likely someone will start the Jesus didn`t come to change argument.

Laws like eye for an eye, stoning etc. I see those as penalties for crimes, so would be Governmental to me not moral. I don`t think your examples are changes to righteousness but rather preparation to build a world wide church instead of maintaining the theocracy of Israel.

The "changes" Jesus made are almost a giveaway for the mystery of grace that Paul would soon reveal. I don`t think eye for eye, stoning etc was ever righteousness, I think they were penalties for criminals.

 

[Swag365]

So your saying you would not be responsible for leading a person into hardcore OSAS if you simply told him OSAS is true? I am not buying that one. That would be like saying, do drugs because they are good for you, and then not clarifying what you meant. You could be referring to pharmacy drugs. But if you did not clarify that point, many folks can think you are promoting bad drugs by your own words and if they act on your words, you would be to blame. The same is true if you tell others OSAS is true. They could go to the bad version of OSAS and see you many years later and thank you for your tip into looking OSAS. But if they believed in the Hyper Grace Hardcore OSAS that you consider to be false, you would still be at fault because you did not clarify the difference. Therein lies the problem in holding to the OSAS label and message. It all sounds the same. But your version is different. But if you did not clarify that with them because you did not have the time to do so, then you would be at fault for leading down a wrong path or road.

There is a certain member of this forum who has his own unique definition of nearly everything, and believes that those definitions are binding on the world at large, although he is the only one who holds them.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

My four catagories are just an aid that helps me understand the purposes of Laws. I think saying He changed law is fine. I prefer to say clarify because the word is more benign and it makes it less likely someone will start the Jesus didn`t come to change argument.

Laws like eye for an eye, stoning etc. I see those as penalties for crimes, so would be Governmental to me not moral. I don`t think your examples are changes to righteousness but rather preparation to build a world wide church instead of maintaining the theocracy of Israel.

The "changes" Jesus made are almost a giveaway for the mystery of grace that Paul would soon reveal. I don`t think eye for eye, stoning etc was ever righteousness, I think they were penalties for criminals.

I believe believe the New Covenant (New Testament) began with Christ's death.
The Old Covenant and the Old Law had ended on that day.
Many things were new. Especially the handling of justice.
I believe that Jesus taught His followers non-resistance. Our role is different than that of the powers of authority of the government (like the police and the military). God uses the government as an arm of justice to punish evil (even though that government itself is not saved). But believers have a different role in the function of God's plan. They turn the other cheek instead of an eye for an eye. They do good to those that do evil unto them. This is the New Covenant way.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Anyways, God's blessings to everyone here (even if we do not agree on everything).

 

[Swag365]

You are not getting it. Get closer to the light, and you will see how much every believer fails.

Obviously every Christian sins.

Why judge those who you feel the upper hand with. Your own heart has cast stone to those who have God in their hearst.

You are projecting what you feel onto other people.

You talk a lot about grace but you don’t seem to understand it at all, to be frank. You seem to be so burdened by your own sins that you must go to an antinomian extreme to slay your own internal demons. Our Lord grants us peace, but you do not seem to have that at all.

 

[Danigt22]

Obviously every Christian sins.

You are projecting what you feel onto other people.

You talk a lot about grace but you don’t seem to understand it at all, to be frank. You seem to be so burdened by your own sins that you must go to an antinomian extreme to slay your own internal demons. Our Lord grants us peace, but you do not seem to have that at all.

"burdened by your own sins that you must go to an antinomian extreme to slay your own internal demons" We all are like this before getting save. Havent you ever admit you are sinner and ask the lord Jesus Christ in your heart to give you his spirit. That spirit is seal within the believer, it reminds us about the grace we are given and to seek the lord Jesus Christ. If I projected this into you, I would assume you are save.

 

[Gregory Thompson]

If God is looking at our spiritual maturity, is that not characterized by (at least) obedience?

Faith without works is dead. James 2.

5 Examine yourselves to see whether you are in the faith; test yourselves. Do you not realize that Christ Jesus is in you—unless, of course, you fail the test? 2 Corinthians 13

If you love me you will keep my commandments. John 14

And there are MANY more.




here is a good article on the question:
Obedience Confirms Our Standing in God

Another good read:
Obedience to Christ Gives Assurance of the Truth of His Doctrines

Maturity is measured in Love, because by the love being made mature or perfect within us, we have confidence on the day of judgment.

I find obedience focus tends to have a very anti christian focus, making the person calling to obedience - to be obeyed, their interpretation - it has nothing to do with obeying God.

 

[Swag365]

That is an ad hominem. You seek works and your own righteousness. So if someone tells you to seek only grace, you project your false justice into others. There is no grace with those words. Seek salvation. Or you will not inherit the kingdom of God. Im trying to tell you to repent, before its too late.

Well, I most certainly need to repent of my sins. We can agree on that.

 

[Swag365]

"burdened by your own sins that you must go to an antinomian extreme to slay your own internal demons" We all are like this before getting save.
Havent you ever admit you are sinner and ask the lord Jesus Christ in your heart to give you his spirit.

I'm sure that I've prayed some version of the "Sinner's prayer" back when I was a Protestant.

That spirit is seal within the believer, it reminds us about the grace we are given and to seek the lord Jesus Christ. If I projected this into you, I would assume you are save.

A better question is whether I will remain saved, if I choose to reject the Lord tomorrow or the next day.