want to talk about OSAS?

[Rachel20]

You have to keep being saved over and over again otherwise?

Right! But Hebrews 6:4-6 , usually quoted by non-OSAS believers, makes it clear that's impossible -

"For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,
And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,
If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame."

That would seem to say that being saved is meaningless if you can't count on it to stick around.

If it doesn't stick around, it was never eternal. If it becomes eternal at some future point, then you can't know now whether you have eternal life, but 1 John 5:10-13 says you can know now -

"He that believeth on the Son of God hath the witness in himself: he that believeth not God hath made him a liar; because he believeth not the record that God gave of his Son.
And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son.
He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life.
These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God"

 

[St_Worm2]

If we truly have free will, then there is always a chance that we will lose our faith and forsake God.

Hello brother, do you believe that remains true for us in the age to come as well, or do you believe that we no longer have free will (in Heaven/on the New Earth)?

Thanks!

--David

 

[Mark Quayle]

If we truly have free will, then there is always a chance that we will lose our faith and forsake God. For one to believe otherwise, then where is free will? Do we just become puppets on a string when we become Christians? Honestly, I do not see any grounds for OSAS among the Church Fathers. If it is there, I am not aware of it. To the contrary, the Early Church was so concerned about members committing grave sins, that for a period of time, a Christian was only allowed to commit one grave sin after Baptism. Eventually this was changed to an unlimited number of grave sins, as apparently Church leaders realized that frail humans were unable or unwilling to refrain from committing mortal/grave sins.

There is no such thing logically as chance determining anything --it is self-contradictory. So what do you mean by free will, if it depends on a chance of something happening or not happening?

 

[Gregory Thompson]

Hmmm the god of chance - or the god of another chances? hmmmm.

 

[Mark Quayle]

I would like to clear it up. As I said on another thread, To me how can you not believe in it? You have to keep being saved over and over again otherwise? So once isn't enough for you? That would seem to say that being saved is meaningless if you can't count on it to stick around.
Any theories, thoughts, etc?

From that earlier thread: Calvinism teaches that God chooses and irrevocably saves the Elect only. OSAS is only a quick handle on the concept, and I note, is not even a particularly Calvinistic notion --the confidence in the promises of God to complete what he has begun in us is a welcome doctrine to both Calvinists and Arminian-leaning synergists alike.

 

[Gregory Thompson]

OSAS - the Oasis.

So OSAS is like believing in the scriptures for salvation like it's a legal contract, instead of trusting in Jesus and Him saving us.

 

[Mark Quayle]

Hmmm the god of chance - or the god of another chances? hmmmm.

I noted early on, but kept my mouth shut until I heard someone with more authority in the area of philosophy say it, that chance is just a place-holder for "I don't know." God is not a God of chances.

 

[Gregory Thompson]

I noted early on, but kept my mouth shut until I heard someone with more authority in the area of philosophy say it, that chance is just a place-holder for "I don't know." God is not a God of chances.

But Jesus is the God of another chances.

I recall seeing two quotes,

God does not play dice (Einstein)

If He does play dice, the dice are loaded (Probably just a joke and not a real quote)

 

[kdm1984]

I voted no

"9. We reject the teaching that believers can never fall from faith (“once saved, always saved”), because the Bible says it is possible for believers to fall from faith (1 Corinthians 10:12)."

Justification – WELS

"In addition to the Bible verse listed, we could add Luke 8:13; Galatians 5:4; 1 Timothy 1:19; and, 2 Peter 3:17-18."

Salvation Questions – WELS

 

[Basil the Great]

Hello brother, do you believe that remains true for us in the age to come as well, or do you believe that we no longer have free will (in Heaven/on the New Earth)?

Thanks!

--David

That is a good question and I do not have a firm answer for you. While we all pretty much assume that all is perfect in Heaven, who knows?

 

[Swag365]

I would like to clear it up. As I said on another thread, To me how can you not believe in it? You have to keep being saved over and over again otherwise? So once isn't enough for you? That would seem to say that being saved is meaningless if you can't count on it to stick around.
Any theories, thoughts, etc?

Interesting poll. I wonder what it would look like if we looked at it historically around the world. My impression is that OSAS (as opposed to perseverance of the saints generally) is a pretty modern view, limited to say the last 50 years, within the US for the most part. Kind of like the "Left Behind" Rapture type of theology.

I could be wrong on that though.

 

[Swag365]

People who dont believe in OSAS diminish the finish work of the cross, and seek their own works instead of grace and mercy.

Not at all.

 

[Swag365]

It seems that few Christians understand what it means to be saved.

They need you to teach them, O' Great Wise Leader.

 

[Mark Quayle]

But Jesus is the God of another chances.

I recall seeing two quotes,

God does not play dice (Einstein)

If He does play dice, the dice are loaded (Probably just a joke and not a real quote)

Jesus is the God of second chances, you mean? That's not chance, but opportunity.

 

[Mark Quayle]

OSAS - the Oasis.

So OSAS is like believing in the scriptures for salvation like it's a legal contract, instead of trusting in Jesus and Him saving us.

I think OSAS is ok as far as it goes. The biggest problem with it is the same thing as any handle we put to any concept. It is only a handle, and not the whole doctrine. People who think they are saved depend on it for assuredness, when the Bible says that obedience produces assuredness.

 

[Mark Quayle]

But Jesus is the God of another chances.

I recall seeing two quotes,

God does not play dice (Einstein)

If He does play dice, the dice are loaded (Probably just a joke and not a real quote)

Yeah, lol, the story I heard was that Einstein said (in reaction to some description of quantum physics, which claimed some particles "popped in and out of existence" by pure chance), "God does not roll dice with the Universe", to which Stephen Hawking said, "Who are you to tell God what he can and cannot do?"

 

[Aussie Pete]

They need you to teach them, O' Great Wise Leader.

What do you want to know?

 

[Mark Quayle]

Hello brother, do you believe that remains true for us in the age to come as well, or do you believe that we no longer have free will (in Heaven/on the New Earth)?

Thanks!

--David

Do you believe that free will now, and even in heaven, or maybe specially in heaven, can be independent of God?

 

[Mark Quayle]

Interesting poll. I wonder what it would look like if we looked at it historically around the world. My impression is that OSAS (as opposed to perseverance of the saints generally) is a pretty modern view, limited to say the last 50 years, within the US for the most part. Kind of like the "Left Behind" Rapture type of theology.

I could be wrong on that though.

There has always been that point of view that says God is the one who chooses his sheep, of which none will be irrevocably lost. In fact, the concept is as old as the concept of redemption.

 

[friend of]

I believe apostasy is possible but I believe God does keep His children and preserves them unless they go apostate