want to talk about OSAS?

[RickReads]

If they are preordained by God, they can't go apostate. Correct. That's how they were preordained, God saw that they would follow him....He doesn't make mistakes.

Apostasy means more then not follow. A former Christian who becomes Agnostic, athiest, converts to another religeon, or in some other way becomes non religeous has committed apostasy.

I was talking to somebody on this site recently and they told me they wished OSAS was true but that some scripture disproves it. I said OSAS is true as long as you don`t give up, you have to "endure".
Not exactly OSAS but what I believe is close.

Anyway, I asked them for the scriptures that disprove. They gave me some and it was a good list, well thought out. I was able to find 3 things that put a Christian in danger. These are falling away, turning away and luke warmness.

Luke warmness and turning away are both paths to falling away which is the sin unto death John warns us about.

 

[returntosender]

Apostasy means more then not follow. A former Christian who becomes Agnostic, athiest, converts to another religeon, or in some other way becomes non religeous has committed apostasy.

I was talking to somebody on this site recently and they told me they wished OSAS was true but that some scripture disproves it. I said OSAS is true as long as you don`t give up, you have to "endure".
Not exactly OSAS but what I believe is close.

Anyway, I asked them for the scriptures that disprove. They gave me some and it was a good list, well thought out. I was able to find 3 things that put a Christian in danger. These are falling away, turning away and luke warmness.

Luke warmness and turning away are both paths to falling away which is the sin unto death John warns us about.

But if you believe that the preordained are seen by God as believers and are then chosen by him then they can't fall away as God doesn't make mistakes.

 

[RickReads]

But if you believe that the preordained are seen by God as believers and are then chosen by him then they can't fall away as God doesn't make mistakes.

That`s the standard argument. Used it myself, plenty of times. Problem is, the 3 dangers are Biblical and real plus God is the only one who has seen the master list.

How do any of us know we are on it? And careful how you answer because Hebrews 6 is ready to slap you around.

 

[returntosender]

Apostasy means more then not follow. A former Christian who becomes Agnostic, athiest, converts to another religeon, or in some other way becomes non religeous has committed apostasy.

I was talking to somebody on this site recently and they told me they wished OSAS was true but that some scripture disproves it. I said OSAS is true as long as you don`t give up, you have to "endure".
Not exactly OSAS but what I believe is close.

Anyway, I asked them for the scriptures that disprove. They gave me some and it was a good list, well thought out. I was able to find 3 things that put a Christian in danger. These are falling away, turning away and luke warmness.

Luke warmness and turning away are both paths to falling away which is the sin unto death John warns us about.

Not sure I agree with that, if you believe that God does not wish to lose anyone then I think he gives many chances up til the last, lol. I realize there is a cutoff but not before trying again with us sinners. There was an Atheists here once that I talked to and tried to persuade him into a change of mind. You could see and hear the sadness in his posts. I never saw him again but I think of him often in hopes and prayers that he found his way back to God. I believe because of his sadness which portrayed "if only I had a chance" that God would grant it. Repentance can work wonders.
Bless you!

 

[Danthemailman]

Your salvation comes from your heart believing the gospel. The sonship cant be lost, we are seal with the holy ghost. People who dont believe in OSAS diminish the finish work of the cross, and seek their own works instead of grace and mercy.

Well said. Such people typically teach "type 2 works salvation." Ephesians 1:13 - In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise, 14 who is the guarantee of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, to the praise of His glory.

Salvation is not probation.
Eternal life is not temporary life.
Jesus is the door. He is not a revolving door.

 

[Danthemailman]

It seems that few Christians understand what it means to be saved. First up, there is the salvation of the spirit, which is instant, eternal and happens when the individual is born again. Then there is the progressive salvation of the soul, which means renewal of the mind, the freeing of the will to choose God's will and the release from all bondages to sin, self, Satan and the world. This is a lifetime project. Finally, wonderfully, will be the salvation of the body. We receive a spiritual body to match the new, born again spirit. All my age related weakness, twinges, thinning hair, wrinkles and such will go!

There are three tenses to salvation. 1. We have been saved from the PENALTY of sin (justification) 2. We are being saved from the POWER of sin (ongoing sanctification) 3. We will be saved from the PRESENCE of sin (glorification)

 

[Anthony2019]

Your post an excellent one, supports osas

The two passages in Hebrews and the sin unto death recorded in 1 John 5:16–17 caused the early Christians to believe that grave sins wilfully committed after baptism could not be forgiven, and this theology developed into the distinction between venial and mortal sin. Mortal sin was considered to be particularly serious and required repentance and penance to restore one's relationship with God.

 

[returntosender]

That`s the standard argument. Used it myself, plenty of times. Problem is, the 3 dangers are Biblical and real plus God is the only one who has seen the master list.

How do any of us know we are on it? And careful how you answer because Hebrews 6 is ready to slap you around.

Because we love and believe in him. That insures we have been chosen. We would have no care if we hadn't been chosen.

 

[Danthemailman]

Yes. My question is whether or not the individual was born again. From my own experience, I know that it is possible to have a false "conversion". I agreed mentally but my heart was unchanged (at a Billy Graham meeting). It was 5 years later that I was born again.

Amen! False conversions are not uncommon. In regards to the parable of the sower, even though this shallow ground hearer in Luke 8:13 is said to have "believed," yet he is never said to have been "saved." How do we know that the shallow ground hearer was never actually "saved"? First, his heart condition is contrasted with that of the "good ground" hearer in the 4th soil, who's heart was "good" and "honest." Thus, his heart was not good, being like the soil to which it corresponds, being "shallow" or "rocky," lacking sufficient depth. Such soil represents a sinner not properly prepared in heart.

People who "believe" in a shallow way and rejoice at the preaching of the gospel without a prepared heart, and without a good and honest heart, and without having "root" in themselves, do not experience real salvation.

Unlike saving belief, temporary, shallow temporary belief that has no root, produces no fruit and withers away is not rooted in a regenerate heart. How can no depth of earth, no root, no moisture, no fruit, represent saving belief? It doesn't. Also the same Greek word for believe "pisteuo" is used in James 2:19, in which we read that the demons believe "mental assent" that "there is one God," but they are not saved.

John has portrayed people who "believe" (at least to some extent) but are clearly not saved. There is a stage in the progress of belief in Jesus that "falls short of firmly rooted and established belief" resulting in salvation. As we see in John 2:23-25, in which their belief was superficial in nature and Jesus would not entrust/commit Himself to them.

Also, in John 8:31-59, where the Jews who were said to have "believed in him" turn out to be slaves to sin, indifferent to the words of Jesus’, children of the devil, liars, accused Jesus of having a demon and were guilty of setting out to stone and kill the one they have professed to believe in. We can see at best that these Jews merely believed in Him (based on their own misconceptions and expectations) of Jesus, yet upon gaining further knowledge about Jesus through His words, we see they did not truly "believe unto salvation," but were instead children of the devil.

 

[RickReads]

Not sure I agree with that, if you believe that God does not wish to lose anyone then I think he gives many chances up til the last, lol. I realize there is a cutoff but not before trying again with us sinners. There was an Atheists here once that I talked to and tried to persuade him into a change of mind. You could see and hear the sadness in his posts. I never saw him again but I think of him often in hopes and prayers that he found his way back to God. I believe because of his sadness which portrayed "if only I had a chance" that God would grant it. Repentance can work wonders.
Bless you!

I wasn`t saying everyone with those problems are lost. If that were so you could certainly stick a fork in me because I`d be done. But they are paths away from God and toward apostasy which is spiritual death.

 

[returntosender]

I wasn`t saying everyone with those problems are lost. If that were so you could certainly stick a fork in me because I`d be done. But they are paths away from God and toward apostasy which is spiritual death.

I agree I was just saying I believe we may have many second chances depending on the circumstances.

 

[Danthemailman]

It doesn`t address the "sin unto death" 1 John 5. That`s your OSAS Achilles heel.

Certain people jump to the conclusion that John is talking about believers committing certain sins that lead them to spiritual death, but that does not seem to fit the context - 1 John 5:16 - If anyone sees his brother sinning a sin which does not lead to death, he will ask, and He will give him life for those who commit sin not leading to death. There is sin leading to death. I do not say that he should pray about that. 17 All unrighteousness is sin, and there is sin not leading to death. 18 We know that whoever is born of God does not sin; but he who has been born of God keeps himself, and the wicked one does not touch him.

 

[RickReads]

Because we love and believe in him. That insures we have been chosen. We would have no care if we hadn't been chosen.

Everybody starts out that way. That`s the challenge of addessing Hebrews 6 which says they even had the Holy Spirit. I don`t really understand how they became lost after recieving Holy Spirit. Even today I feel like I`ve missed something that prevents my understanding.

 

[d taylor]

Nothing to talk about once a person believes that Jesus is The promised Messiah from the prophecies of The Tanakh they receive God free gift of Gods Eternal Life.

They cross over from death to life and there are no verse stating that a person by their actions can cross back over to death again.

 

[returntosender]

I am signing off now as it is 3:30 am here and I haven't been to bed yet. Hope to see you all here again and thanks for your interests in the thread.

 

[Dave L]

I would like to clear it up. As I said on another thread, To me how can you not believe in it? You have to keep being saved over and over again otherwise? So once isn't enough for you? That would seem to say that being saved is meaningless if you can't count on it to stick around.
Any theories, thoughts, etc?

You cannot have faith that God saved you if you think you can be lost. And we are saved by faith.

 

[Gregory Thompson]

Jesus is the God of second chances, you mean? That's not chance, but opportunity.

Difference?

 

[Gregory Thompson]

I think OSAS is ok as far as it goes. The biggest problem with it is the same thing as any handle we put to any concept. It is only a handle, and not the whole doctrine. People who think they are saved depend on it for assuredness, when the Bible says that obedience produces assuredness.

I don't recall that verse.

The only verse of that nature (assuredness) is in 1st John stating that because love is made perfect or mature in us, we have confidence on the day of Judgment because in this world we are like Him. God is looking at our spiritual maturity.

In terms of intellectual assuredness, we are instructed to Judge with Mercy in James' epistle.

 

[chilehed]

To me how can you not believe in it?

Besides that it's the exact opposite of what I find in the Bible, and no one had ever heard of the idea until Luther made it up?

 

[Anthony2019]

Can a person become a Christian and remain always saved. Yes, of course that is possible. If they show by the fruits of their lives their commitment to Jesus: through prayer, through the sacraments, through reading the word, through the love and charity they show to others.
Our relationship with God should never be taken for granted. If we neglect reading the scriptures, praying, meeting with other Christians, then living the faith will become very hard for us. We will be beset by all kinds of temptations and yes, even true Christians can fall into them. Christians are more than capable of falling into sin and many do so grieviously.
Some sins by their nature are more grave than others. Pinching a biscuit from the cookie jar, although it may be considered sinful, is far less serious than cheating a pensioner out of their savings.
Acting out of ignorance, impulse or weakness is one thing, a deliberate and calculated transgression of God's commandments is quite another.
As Christians we will experience all kinds of trials, temptations and difficulties during this life. We often mess things up (I know I certainly do!) but our Lord is gracious, forgiving and kind towards us. Ultimately He knows what is in our hearts and whether we still have the desire to repent, love and serve Him. He is gentle and courteous with us and places us under no obligation to follow Him. But if we stop obeying and listening to God, our relationship becomes harmed. If we deliberately choose the path of evil rather than the path that God has set before us, then it will result in our relationship with Him being severed, and if there is no repentance, then we can expect to face judgement.