victorinus

[victorinus]

I am perplexed by your statement that the churches were not in the "original" text of the Revelation. Yet they are plainly seen in the text you linked to. Where do you find this "original" text? The text I referred to can be read at:
http://www.bombaxo.com/blog/patristic-stuff/victorinus-in-apocalypsin/
http://www.bombaxo.com/blog/patristic-stuff/victorinus-in-apocalypsin/

I don't see the churches in your link nor mine
-the churches mentioned are the churches paul wrote to

 

[victorinus]

hmmm?

Question # 5 What event in history do you believe fulfilled Revelation 11:15-19?

don't know of any
-where is this going?
-I plan to list all the events that I believe have been fulfilled
-I already started this
-why can't you just wait and see them as they are presented?

 

[Handmaid for Jesus]

don't know of any
-where is this going?
-I plan to list all the events that I believe have been fulfilled
-I already started this
-why can't you just wait and see them as they are presented?

Oh I get it. You want this to be a teaching thread not a discussion thread. Why didn't you make that clear in your OP?

 

[victorinus]

Oh I get it. You want this to be a teaching thread not a discussion thread. Why didn't you make that clear in your OP?

I said up front that I didn't have all the pieces and wanted to share what I did have
-I have been more than willing to discuss what I have already presented
-it is not efficient to let someone try to guess what pieces I don't have
-okay?

 

[Luke17:37]

Oh I get it. You want this to be a teaching thread not a discussion thread. Why didn't you make that clear in your OP?

Yeah, that was becoming clear to me. He hasn't replied to my posts for hours, either. I'm unwatching this thread. I don't need to wait for him to put out more historicist ideas that I will tell him I don't agree with. There becomes a point where there's no longer a point in continuing discussion, and that point is now.

 

[Douggg]

no you can't make anything fit
-history is the only way to confirm what has been prophesied

What if you repackaged that a little bit? Or maybe this is what you are trying to say, but I am misunderstanding.

Daniel 2, 7, 8, 9, 11 the prophecies contained therein, in each chapter, ends in the end times.

Also in each chapter there are portions of the entire prophecy that are now historic. In each of those chapters, there is roughly a 2000 year gap from what is now historic verses to the end times verses - still left to be fulfilled.

By looking at the historic verses, the entire prophecy gains validation for those of us living in the end times when the entire prophecies in each chapter will be completed. So by looking at the historically fulfilled parts we can look at the end times parts knowing those will be fulfilled as well, with confidence.

It can also help in understanding some of the difficult verses, like Daniel 8:23, which is gapped 2000 years from Daniel 8:20-22 which are (now) historic verses ending with the four breakup kingdoms. We know for absolute certain that Media, Persia, Greece, and the four break up kingdoms are historic, with no gaps between their succession to one another.

But Daniel 8:23 is separated from Daniel 8:22 by 2000 years. So if a person tries to make a connection between the kingdom of the transgressors in Daniel 8:23 with the four breakup kingdoms in Daniel 8:22, it is not going to work because the four break up kingdoms are of a different era.

The entire vision Daniel had, the angel in Daniel 8:17 says ends in the time of the end, or what is commonly called the end times. The end times part is the little horn, and his transgression of desolation, and him ultimately attempting to do battle with the Lord Jesus Christ.

 

[victorinus]

So by looking at the historically fulfilled parts we can look at the end times parts knowing those will be fulfilled as well, with confidence.

only if your interpretation of them is correct
the fourth beast of daniel is the second beast of the apocalypse and it is still with us and will be to the end
-the only thing I know about the end is the good guys win but it won't be pretty until that happens

 

[victorinus]

I don't need to wait for him to put out more historicist ideas that I will tell him I don't agree with.

don't you want to hear about the seven heads and ten horns?
-I will be listing them.
-did you comment on my explanation of 666?

 

[victorinus]

-the second beast of the apocalypse is the fourth beast of daniel
-both have ten horns
-the ten islamic dynasties
-they named them for me

 

[victorinus]

Baloney. The whole book is leading up to and preparing us for His second coming (Revelation 19), not His first.

did you expect me to reply to this?

 

[Job8]

me either! Funny how he thinks it is three different Johns.

And then there's "Brother John" -- are you sleeping Brother John (Frere Jacques)?

 

[Postvieww]

don't know of any
-where is this going?
-I plan to list all the events that I believe have been fulfilled
-I already started this
-why can't you just wait and see them as they are presented?

Ok that’s an answer. All of this is going to see if I owe you an apology or not.

I’ll suspend the rest of my questions till you present your ideas.

 

[Handmaid for Jesus]

And then there's "Brother John" -- are you sleeping Brother John (Frere Jacques)?

 

[Job8]

There is one solitary passage pertaining to "1000 years" in the entire Bible (Rev 20:1-9). There are zero mentions of it in the Old Testament, gospels or epistles. One can't find a single other mention of the so-called "millennium" anywhere else in scripture. Not anywhere. The fact is, there is no literal 1000 years.

In Scripture, even one mention of something is quite sufficient to establish doctrine. For example, in the Gospels, we read only in the Gospel of John "Ye must be born again" (John 3:7). That certainly does not invalidate this doctrine. Indeed it is at the core of the Gospel.

Also, you forgot to mention that *one (or the) thousand years* (Greek chilia ete) is mentioned six times in seven verses! That is extremely significant.

1. And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.

2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,

3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.

4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. Thisisthe first resurrection.

6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,

 

[victorinus]

if you should find a thousand year empire
-and it is christian
-and it comes with two beasts
-and it has a babylon
-you might want to check it out

 

[victorinus]

-the first beast of the apocalypse is the third beast of daniel
-the seven heads are the seven dynasties of the roman empire
-named by the historians
Julio-Claudian dynasty 68
Flavian dynasty 96
Adoptive and Antonine Emperors 192
House of Severus 235
Tetrarchy and the House of Constantine 364
House of Valentinian 455
Family of Leo I the Great 476

 

[victorinus]

-so what is significant about the sixth dynasty of the roman empire?
-10 And there are seven kings: five are fallen, and one is, and the other is not yet come;
-we will have to ask chrysostom and jerome
-chrysostom was in ephesus replacing exactly seven corrupt bishops
-jerome was translating the bible
-chrysostom added something to the apocalypse to convince jerome to put it in the bible
-chrysostom was the third john
-this is all speculation of course

 

[Luke17:37]

did you expect me to reply to this?

No, but #47, #73, #75 and #76 you didn't respond to that I can see.

I'm sorry; "Baloney," wasn't the nicest word to use. I just really couldn't believe you were attributing Jesus' words about coming quickly from Revelation 22 to have been fulfilled by Jesus' first coming, as heralded by John the Baptist. If John the Baptist wrote any part of Scripture, we would have known about it. The simple and straightforward answer is that it was written by the Apostle John during his exile on the Island of Patmos, as he said.

And Jesus gave the visions and John recorded it for the Church so that they would know what was going to happen. That in itself should tell us that it's a prophetic book to tell us about the future. If it's not practical, what would be the point? If it couldn't be understood and obeyed, what would be the point? God inspired and painstakingly preserved the Scriptures. It wasn't written in a chop chop fashion. If you have 50 people who are Historists, you are going to have (at least) 50 views of what these prophecies meant. Or, you can take Scripture at face value--that there's going to come a time of Tribulation with these certain plagues, the laws about the mark of the beast, the penalty for taking it (damnation), followed by Jesus' victorious return, the 1,000 year reign of Jesus with the resurrected saints, the Gog/Magog rebellion, the final judgment, the passing away of our current heavens and earth, and living in the new heavens and the new earth. Now, post-Tribulation Resurrection-Rapture (pre-Millennial) believers don't completely agree on everything either but we agree on the major things - the Jesus will return after the Tribulation, followed by His millennial reign, the squashing of the Gog/Magog rebellion, the white throne judgment, and finally the new heavens and the new earth.

I encourage you to just take Revelation as largely future and literal, being ready to overcome, even if that means being beheaded. I really believe that being unprepared for a future literal Tribulation will negatively affect people's abilities to withstand the great deceptions. With that, I'm off my soapbox. Bye.

 

[victorinus]

the 1,000 year reign of Jesus with the resurrected saints,

it doesn't say that
-it says they reigned with Christ
-and yes it is in the bible because someone thought it was written by john the apostle
-many did not agree

 

[victorinus]

In Scripture, even one mention of something is quite sufficient to establish doctrine.

amen