victorinus

[victorinus]

-who is victorinus?
-he wrote the oldest commentary on the apocalypse
-me?
-someone who has been obsessed with the apocalypse for 20 years
-it all started with louis farakan calling the pope a harlot on tv based on rev 17
-I then decided to find the correct interpretation
-I have and would like to share it with you
-most of my views had already been held by others
-I have a few views that seem to be unique
-what I am presenting here is not the official view of the catholic church
-the church does not have an official view
-happy to be here and find here others who are also interested in daniel and the apocalypse
-we may not agree but we should at least attempt to understand each other
-I am an historicist and simply look for what fits
-history is all we have and we should use it to help us understand what is presented in the apocalypse
-most do not have the time for this
-most do not have to understand this
-some of us have no other choice
-we have to study this
-thanks for listening

 

[victorinus]

-where do you start?
-at the beginning
-who wrote it and why??
-john the baptist to prepare the way
-I laughed the first time I heard this
-years later I realized it was the only explanation that made sense
-it explains why the introduction uses the name john three times
-it explains why there is no agreement as to who wrote it and when
-it explains many other unusual things that others are not even aware of

 

[Douggg]

-who is victorinus?
-he wrote the oldest commentary on the apocalypse
-me?
-someone who has been obsessed with the apocalypse for 20 years
-it all started with louis farakan calling the pope a harlot on tv based on rev 17
-I then decided to find the correct interpretation
-I have and would like to share it with you
-most of my views had already been held by others
-I have a few views that seem to be unique
-what I am presenting here is not the official view of the catholic church
-the church does not have an official view
-happy to be here and find here others who are also interested in daniel and the apocalypse
-we may not agree but we should at least attempt to understand each other
-I am an historicist and simply look for what fits
-history is all we have and we should use it to help us understand what is presented in the apocalypse
-most do not have the time for this
-most do not have to understand this
-some of us have no other choice
-we have to study this
-thanks for listening

I am pretty sure that your are the Pope.....
okay, I am all ears.

 

[victorinus]

I am pretty sure that your are the Pope.....
okay, I am all ears.

thank you
-thank you very much

 

[victorinus]

-why john the baptist?
-he bore witness to the Lamb of God
-who else said Lamb of God?
-most chapters in revelation do not mention Jesus
-the time was near
-to prepare the way
-Jesus was added later by another john
-along with the churches and other stuff
-so there were at least two versions of the apocalypse
-copies of the first one were referred to as ancient by eusebius
-victorinus did his commentary on the first version
-more on that later

 

[victorinus]

-before we get to the commentary by victorinus
-let's look at what we can learn from eusebius
-his book, church history talks about the apocalypse, ancient copies of it, what others say about it, some of the seven churches, and martyrs but does not mention antipas nor does he associate any of the churches with the apocalypse
-you might be able to ignore this but when you get to reading the commentary by victorinus and find he is not aware of the seven churches or antipas, you have to wonder why
-you have to wonder what he is reading
-both are reading an ancient copy of the apocalypse written by john the baptist to prepare the way
-the time is near

 

[victorinus]

-the first john of revelation: Who bare record of the word of God(rev 1:2)
-in john's gospel: John bare witness of him(john 1:15)
-who used the phrase Lamb of God?
-only john the baptist
-who was the first to suggest this?
-josephine massyngberde ford
-she was not the first to suggest multiple versions of the apocalypse
-my favorite is: Studies in the Apocalypse by R. Charles
-he was sure the apocalypse was originally written in hebrew and later translated to greek
-love his book which includes a russian's claim that chrysostom wrote the apocalypse in 395 based on astronomy
-I have other reasons to believe chrysostom was the third john
-seriously
-more on that later

 

[Biblewriter]

As you write your commentary, do not forget that the most common version of the commentary on the Apocalypse that is attributed to Victorinus is the version edited by Jerome, who wrote concerning this version:

"Those crossing over the perilous seas find different dangers. If a storm of winds has become violent, it is a terror; if the moderate air has calmed the back of the elements, lying calm, they fear traps. Thus is seen in this book which you have sent to me, which is seen to contain the explanation of the Apocalypse by Victorinus. Also, it is dangerous, and opens to the barkings of detractors, to judge the short works of eminent men. For even earlier Papias, the bishop of Hierapolis, and Nepos, the bishop of parts of Egypt, perceived of the kingdom of the thousand years just as Victorinus. And because you are in your letters entreating me, I do not want to delay, but nor do I want to scorn praying. I immediately unwound the books of the greats, and what I found in their commentaries about the kingdom of the thousand years, I added to the little work of Victorinus, erasing from there those things which he perceived according to the letter.

"From the beginning of the book to the sign of the cross, we have corrected things which are the corruptions of inexperience of scribes. Know that from there to the end of the book is added. Now it is yours to judge, and to confirm what pleases. If our life will be made longer and the Lord will give health, for you, our most capable genius will sweat over this book, dearest Anatolius."

(Jerome’s letter to Anatolius, the prologue to his version of the commentary on the Apocalypse by Victorinus.)

 

[victorinus]

(Jerome’s letter to Anatolius, the prologue to his version of the commentary on the Apocalypse by Victorinus.)

-thank you for that
-I did see that somewhere
-is this just about the 1000 year controversy?
-my purpose with the commentary by victorinus is to show he does not mention the churches and most likely had a copy of the apocalypse before they were added
-I believe the 1000 years is literal
-do you?

 

[Biblewriter]

-thank you for that
-I did see that somewhere
-is this just about the 1000 year controversy?
-my purpose with the commentary by victorinus is to show he does not mention the churches and most likely had a copy of the apocalypse before they were added
-I believe the 1000 years is literal
-do you?

Yes, I believe the thousand years is literal. Victorinus did, and Jerome did not.

But what text of Victorinus are you using? The text of Martine Dulaey, Victorin de Poetovio. Sur l’Apocalypse et autres écrits (Source Chrétiennes 423. Paris: Les Éditions du Cerf, 1997) speaks at length of the seven churches.

 

[victorinus]

Yes, I believe the thousand years is literal. Victorinus did, and Jerome did not.

-thank you again for that
-my next post will be about augustine, chrysostom, and jerome
-I hope you find time to comment on it

 

[victorinus]

-the apocalypse was not accepted by all
-it didn't make the canon until 419
-at the end of the 4th century there were three key players: augustine, chrysostom, and jerome
-jerome was translating the bible
-chrysotom was in ephesus replacing exaclty seven corrupt bishops
-augustine was getting ready to write 'city of God' published in 426 and the apocalyse was not mentioned until chapter seven of book 20 of 22 books so he didn't get his copy right away
-chrysostom may have had some extra time to visit patmos, find a copy of the apocalyse, and add something that would persuade jerome to include it in his transalations
-the seven heads in my opionion are the seven dynasties of the roman empire and at the end of the 4th century, chrysostom could say 'five have fallen, one is, and one is yet to come'
-it is outrageous but it does fit
-and not just astronomically
-the rest of my views are not so outrageous

 

[ewq1938]

-who used the phrase Lamb of God?
-only john the baptist

In Revelation the term "Lamb" is used many times which is short for Lamb of God.

 

[Jipsah]

I am pretty sure that your are the Pope.....
okay, I am all ears.

I can't prove that he's not the pope, therefore I'm forced to conclude that he is.

 

[Douggg]

Yes, I believe the thousand years is literal. Victorinus did, and Jerome did not.

Thanks for that interpretation James, I got lost in that quote.... after about three or four words....

 

[victorinus]

In Revelation the term "Lamb" is used many times which is short for Lamb of God.

it could be john the baptist wrote revelation
-the first one

 

[ewq1938]

it could be john the baptist wrote revelation
-the first one

It's hard to write anything when you are dead though.

 

[victorinus]

It's hard to write anything when you are dead though.

the trick is to do it before you die

 

[victorinus]

-this is just speculation which is not important unless it is important to you to make sense of what you read
-it might help one to understand why the apocalypse was written
-john the baptist was preparing the way for the Lamb
-why is the prophecy included?
-to ensure the reader that God is in control and will triumph in the end
-the apocalypse has been an inspiration to many who have read it regardless of their interpretation
-unfortunately it has been used to discredit others
-I am also guilty of that but my job is to protect the church with a more accurate interpretation
-with that said I will begin to identify the major parts but not all of them because I still don't understand some of it
-the apocalypse is a puzzle and the pieces must fit even if you don't have all of them

 

[Psalm3704]

it could be john the baptist wrote revelation
-the first one

John the Baptist was beheaded and died many years before the Apostle John wrote Revelation around 90-95 AD.






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