victorinus

[Postvieww]

no, we are still waiting for the second coming and everyone will know when that happens
-I am an historicist and a postmillennialist
-what are you?

Good answer. I step closer.

Post trib literal second coming of Christ, literal resurrection of the righteous dead at that time, and a literal 1000 earthly reign of Christ with satan bound by a literal chain by a literal angel for that literal 1000 years.

Question # 3: How you see the order of the book of Revelation, chronological or not?

 

[Luke17:37]

where does it say Christ will reign?

Revelation 20:4-6
4 And I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was committed to them. Then I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their witness to Jesus and for the word of God, who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received his mark on their foreheads or on their hands. And they lived and reigned with Christ for a thousand years. 5 But the rest of the dead did not live again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection. 6 Blessed and holy is he who has part in the first resurrection. Over such the second death has no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with Him a thousand years.

 

[victorinus]

-666 is a year

from gibbon we get
"Forty-six years after the flight of Mahomet from Mecca, his disciples appeared in arms under the walls of Constantinople"

you get exactly 666
using
the islamic calendar calculator

Revelation 15:2King James Version (KJV)

2 And I saw as it were a sea of glass mingled with fire: and them that had gotten the victory over the beast, and over his image, and over his mark, and over the number of his name, stand on the sea of glass, having the harps of God.

they used greek fire to defeat them in the year 666
and
the sea of marmara on a calm day is like a sheet of glass

mohammed left mecca in 622 (Hijra)
-but if you put 46 in the islamic calendar calculator
-you get 666

 

[Luke17:37]

that is what john the baptist wrote and Jesus did come soon after that

Baloney. The whole book is leading up to and preparing us for His second coming (Revelation 19), not His first.

 

[victorinus]

Good answer. I step closer.

Post trib literal second coming of Christ, literal resurrection of the righteous dead at that time, and a literal 1000 earthly reign of Christ with satan bound by a literal chain by a literal angel for that literal 1000 years.

Question # 3: How you see the order of the book of Revelation, chronological or not?

not
-victorinus introduced the concept of recapitulation which most commentaries claim is necessary to make any sense of the apocalypse
-recapitulation means each vision must be evaluated on its own without regard to what comes before or after

 

[Postvieww]

In fulfillment of THIS scripture, absolutely.

33 “Hear another parable: There was a certain landowner who planted a vineyard and set a hedge around it, dug a winepress in it and built a tower. And he leased it to vinedressers and went into a far country.34 Now when vintage-time drew near, he sent his servants to the vinedressers, that they might receive its fruit. 35 And the vinedressers took his servants, beat one, killed one, and stoned another. 36 Again he sent other servants, more than the first, and they did likewise to them.37 Then last of all he sent his son to them, saying, ‘They will respect my son.’ 38 But when the vinedressers saw the son, they said among themselves, ‘This is the heir. Come, let us kill him and seize his inheritance.’ 39 So they took him and cast him out of the vineyard and killed him.

40 “Therefore, when the owner of the vineyard comes, what will he do to those vinedressers?”

41 They said to Him, “He will destroy those wicked men miserably, and lease his vineyard to other vinedressers who will render to him the fruits in their seasons.”

42 Jesus said to them, “Have you never read in the Scriptures:

‘The stone which the builders rejected
Has become the chief cornerstone.
This was the Lord’s doing,
And it is marvelous in our eyes’?

43 “Therefore I say to you, the kingdom of God will be taken from you and given to a nation bearing the fruits of it. 44 And whoever falls on this stone will be broken; but on whomever it falls, it will grind him to powder.”

45 Now when the chief priests and Pharisees heard His parables, they understood that He was speaking of them.

Jesus, Lord of the Vineyard, was the Stone that came and ground those wicked men to Powder in 70AD.

Jesus can execute judgment from His throne just by speaking the word or He can dispatch an angel to do it for Him. Nothing in the passage you sited proves Jesus returned in 70 AD. Nor can you offer any historical record that anyone saw him in any form in 70 AD.

You answered a question directed at victorinus , now answer one directed jointly to you in post #49 reposted below.

“As our friend parousia70 in post #35 so eloquently told us the thousand years is not literal maybe we can look at that closely. The 1000 years is mentioned in Revelation 20:2,3,4,5,6, & 7. We are told 6 times in chapter 20 of the thousands years, we are told what happens at the beginning of the 1000 years we are told some of what happens during the 1000 years and we are told what happens at the end of the 1000 years. Why should anyone believe it is not logical for the 1000 years to be a literal 1000 years? Is the virgin birth listed 6 times in the word of God? I find 2 in the NT Matthew 1:18-25 and Luke 1:26-38, and Luke while implying it does not actually say “born of a virgin”, 1 reference in the OT Isaiah 7:14. Does common sense or logic tell us tell us a virgin can conceive and give birth to The Son of God? 1 Corinthians 2:14. Can we find a historical record that declares Jesus was born of a virgin? Does common sense or the word of God tell us Jesus walked on water, only 3 mentions Matthew 14:25-27, Mark 6: 48-51 and John 6:19-20. Believe what you wish, but this hyper historical method of interpreting scripture in many cases renders the Word Of God of none effect, Mark 7:13. I will ask a few questions either you or Parousia can answer, the last preterist I ask rode off into the sunset and would not answer them. Show us what you really believe. 1. Does Jesus literally heal the sick today either through His divine working or through the laying on of hands as laid out in scripture? 2. Do you believe all of the offices listed in Ephesians 4: 11-12 are still valid for the church today? 3. Are the gifts of the Spirit as outlined in 1 Corinthians 12:7-11 still valid in the church today? 4. Do real angels of God, still work in our midst today at God’s pleasure? 5. Are there real demons at work to cause confusion and havoc in our midst just like the ones Jesus cast out when He walked this earth? 6. If you believe demons are real today, do we as born again believers have authority over them and the ability to cast them out as Jesus did? 7. Do you believe Jesus may appear to any individual of His choosing as He appeared to Stephen, Paul and John.”

 

[victorinus]

And they lived and reigned with Christ for a thousand years.

so you agree they reign with Christ
-when you gather in His name, Christ is with you, even when you are reigning

 

[victorinus]

I didn't want to do it but it looks like I will have to start again and make it a historist only thread

 

[Luke17:37]

so you agree they reign with Christ
-when you gather in His name, Christ is with you, even when you are reigning

I am not gathering or reigning now, if that's what you think it means. I'm taking this text at face value, the same as I take the accounts of creation, the flood, and Jesus' death and resurrection on the third day.

I agree the resurrected Christians reign with Christ on the earth for 1,000 years. It sounds like the beheaded will be given the best positions because of the way their faith was proven. There are many other passages about Jesus' earthly reign in the Old Testament.

 

[victorinus]

Baloney. The whole book is leading up to and preparing us for His second coming (Revelation 19), not His first.

so why would john introduce himself three times in the first chapter?

 

[victorinus]

There are many other passages about Jesus' earthly reign in the Old Testament.

what about My kingdom is not of this world?

 

[Postvieww]

not
-victorinus introduced the concept of recapitulation which most commentaries claim is necessary to make any sense of the apocalypse
-recapitulation means each vision must be evaluated on its own without regard to what comes before or after

Good answer

Question #4 What in the book of Revelation is yet unfulfilled?

 

[Luke17:37]

not
-victorinus introduced the concept of recapitulation which most commentaries claim is necessary to make any sense of the apocalypse
-recapitulation means each vision must be evaluated on its own without regard to what comes before or after

Those rules just make Revelation impossible to understand

 

[victorinus]

Good answer

Question #4 What in the book of Revelation is yet unfulfilled?

rev 19 and parts of 20 like the lake of fire

 

[Luke17:37]

what about My kingdom is not of this world?

He has a spiritual kingdom but and earthly kingdom is coming for a little while. He will undo the affects of the curse.

Check out Psalms 2, Isaiah 2, Isaiah 11, Isaiah 65, Ezekiel 47-48, Zechariah 14. These are just a few that discuss His earthly reign.

And look how Jesus didn't respond when His disciples asked about Him reigning as King over Israel. He didn't say, "No, my kingdom is spiritual. I'm not going to reign on the earth." He just told them it's not for them to know and rather what they should be focused on for now--making disciples in all the earth.

Acts 1:6-8
6 Therefore, when they had come together, they asked Him, saying, “Lord, will You at this time restore the kingdom to Israel?” 7 And He said to them, “It is not for you to know times or seasons which the Father has put in His own authority. 8 But you shall receive power when the Holy Spirit has come upon you; and you shall be witnesses to Me in Jerusalem, and in all Judea and Samaria, and to the end of the earth.”

 

[Luke17:37]

so why would john introduce himself three times in the first chapter?

The first time he's mentioned is in third person because Jesus gave the vision to him.
The second time, "John, to the seven churches which are in Asia..." These seven churches in the modern day southwest Turkey are the first recipients of the book. The third time, "I, John, both your brother and companion in the tribulation and kingdom and patience of our Lord Jesus Christ, was on the island that is called Patmos for the word of God and for the testimony of Jesus Christ." He describes how he was there on Patmos when these visions came to him. He's giving the churches a context for what follows on a human level.

There would only be a problem if the name changed... for example, if John was in the first mention but then it said Matthew. I don't understand why you have a issue with John's name being mentioned three times in chapter 1.

 

[Job8]

-recapitulation means each vision must be evaluated on its own without regard to what comes before or after

And this method of interpretation is essentially meaningless. Revelation is not simply a hodge podge of visions. It is a chronological revelation of future events, even though some visions are parenthetical. For example Armageddon is mentioned in Revelation 14, but is actually presented in Revelation 19 as related to the Second Coming of Christ.

 

[Handmaid for Jesus]

I don't understand why you have a issue with John's name being mentioned three times in chapter 1.

me either! Funny how he thinks it is three different Johns.

 

[Biblewriter]

that is easy for you to say
-I provided a link for my victorinus source in post 6
-can you do the same?
-in my source victorinus mentions the seven churches paul wrote to

I am perplexed by your statement that the churches were not in the "original" text of the Revelation. Yet they are plainly seen in the text you linked to. Where do you find this "original" text? The text I referred to can be read at:
http://www.bombaxo.com/blog/patristic-stuff/victorinus-in-apocalypsin/

 

[Postvieww]

rev 19 and parts of 20 like the lake of fire

hmmm?

Question # 5 What event in history do you believe fulfilled Revelation 11:15-19?