victorinus

[victorinus]

-with this post I will try to connect together as many pieces as possible
-constantinople
-started by the rider of the white horse
-capital of the thousand year christian empire
-during which
-the first beast, the pagan roman empire is mortally wounded
-and replaced by islam the second beast
-started by the rider of the red horse
-constantinople, babylon the great ties it all together with many waters, seven hills, and trade
-it is a mystery, is fallen, is fallen, and can be found no more
-all these pieces fit

 

[victorinus]

-constantinople is the key

“In this inquiry I shall unfold the events that rescued our ancestors of Britain, and our neighbours of Gaul, from the civil and religious yoke of the Koran; that protected the majesty of Rome, and delayed the servitude of Constantinople; that invigorated the defence of the Christians, and scattered among their enemies the seeds of division and decay.”

The Decline And Fall Of The Roman Empire by Edward Gibbon

I will always remember the first time I read this. It was early on in my research of the Apocalypse, Islam, and the Byzantine Empire. I was not sure where this was leading me but at that moment in time a historian of the eighteenth century told me I was on the right track.

Gibbon's footnote on the date is very interesting. His date 668 is at least five years earlier than most historians and I think he is still two years off

 

[Luke17:37]

yes but you ignore my argument that there was more than one version of the apocalypse
-the first written by john the baptist to prepare the way
-the second that included the churches
-and possibly a third that somehow made it into the bible
-three different johns

I think you're mixed up in multiple ways, Victorinus. Multiple visions does not make multiple authors. Have you ever read Ezekiel? Multiple visions and multiple words of the LORD came to him. I don't believe any of your statements and there's no support for them in church history.

 

[victorinus]

I think you're mixed up in multiple ways, Victorinus. Multiple visions does not make multiple authors. Have you ever read Ezekiel? Multiple visions and multiple words of the LORD came to him. I don't believe any of your statements and there's no support for them in church history.

what I am presenting is pure speculation based on what I have read
-if you take out any mention of Jesus and the churches, it sounds like something john the baptist would have wrote to prepare the way
-it would explain why he said
-the time is near
-it also explains other strange things like introducing himself three time in the introduction

 

[Luke17:37]

-with this post I will try to connect together as many pieces as possible
-constantinople
-started by the rider of the white horse
-capital of the thousand year christian empire
-during which
-the first beast, the pagan roman empire is mortally wounded
-and replaced by islam the second beast
-started by the rider of the red horse
-constantinople, babylon the great ties it all together with many waters, seven hills, and trade
-it is a mystery, is fallen, is fallen, and can be found no more
-all these pieces fit

You can make anything "fit" if you decide Revelation is all symbolic. I think you should stop looking at Revelation as history and take it as prophecy of the future. There were lots of prophecies in the Bible that were specifically fulfilled by Jesus or otherwise. It doesn't make sense that God would switch and make His prophecy nonsense, especially when the purpose of the book is:

The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave Him to show His servants—things which must shortly take place. (Revelation 1:1a)

Blessed is he who reads and those who hear the words of this prophecy, and keep those things which are written in it; for the time is near. (Revelation 1:3)

I do think Islam is looking like the religion of the Antichrist.

 

[victorinus]

You can make anything "fit" if you decide Revelation is all symbolic. I think you should stop looking at Revelation as history and take it as prophecy of the future. There were lots of prophecies in the Bible that were specifically fulfilled by Jesus or otherwise. It doesn't make sense that God would switch and make His prophecy nonsense, especially when the purpose of the book is:

The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave Him to show His servants—things which must shortly take place. (Revelation 1:1a)

Blessed is he who reads and those who hear the words of this prophecy, and keep those things which are written in it; for the time is near. (Revelation 1:3)

I do think Islam is looking like the religion of the Antichrist.

no you can't make anything fit
-history is the only way to confirm what has been prophesied
-nearly 2000 years later you would expect most if not all has already taken place
-things which must shortly take place
-for the time is near
-why would you still be looking to the future?

 

[Luke17:37]

futurism works only if you can ignore the past
-the jews are all futurists
-they are still looking for the messiah

But the Jews (majority) missing their Messiah is completely different. It had already happened.

No, you don't ignore the past, you just look for a future literal fulfillment of the seals, trumpets and bowls, the return of Christ, the thousand year reign, the Gog Magog rebellion, the white throne judgment, and the new heavens and the new earth. Revelation was not literally fulfilled in the past. The exception is parts of chapter 12, which start two thousand years ago when Jesus was born (Revelation 12:1-5). As I said in my prior post, Revelation was written to let the Church know what was going to happen. It's practical - helping us be prepared mentally and spiritually so we can be overcomers.

 

[victorinus]

the return of Christ, the thousand year reign,

do you expect the return of Christ prior to the thousand year reign?

 

[Postvieww]

go with the literal unless it doesn't make sense
I might even consider the thousand years figuratively if I couldn't find one but it does say there is an end to it so I need to consider that as well
-common sense tells me not to look for a dragon or chain
-I will look for a beast but don't expect it to be an animal
-I expect it to be a system or institution
-study history and you might find something that is mentioned in prophecy

In Revelation 12: 9 we are told the dragon is satan. So there is no reason to look for a dragon. How is it that common sense leads you to believe an angel with a chain is beyond the realm of common sense. Some fallen angels are bound with chains Jude 6. Even if the chain is figurative it is clear satan is not, and he is bound by the angel for1000 years, Revelation 20:2. You even said “constantine chained the dragon for a thousand years” post #23. Are angels figurative as well? This whole system supposedly based on common sense and logic, has neither. As our friend parousia70 in post #35 so eloquently told us the thousand years is not literal maybe we can look at that closely. The 1000 years is mentioned in Revelation 20:2,3,4,5,6, & 7. We are told 6 times in chapter 20 of the thousands years, we are told what happens at the beginning of the 1000 years we are told some of what happens during the 1000 years and we are told what happens at the end of the 1000 years. Why should anyone believe it is not logical for the 1000 years to be a literal 1000 years? Is the virgin birth listed 6 times in the word of God? I find 2 in the NT Matthew 1:18-25 and Luke 1:26-38, and Luke while implying it does not actually say “born of a virgin”, 1 reference in the OT Isaiah 7:14. Does common sense or logic tell us tell us a virgin can conceive and give birth to The Son of God? 1 Corinthians 2:14. Can we find a historical record that declares Jesus was born of a virgin? Does common sense or the word of God tell us Jesus walked on water, only 3 mentions Matthew 14:25-27, Mark 6: 48-51 and John 6:19-20. Believe what you wish, but this hyper historical method of interpreting scripture in many cases renders the Word Of God of none effect, Mark 7:13. I will ask a few questions either you or Parousia can answer, the last preterist I ask rode off into the sunset and would not answer them. Show us what you really believe. 1. Does Jesus literally heal the sick today either through His divine working or through the laying on of hands as laid out in scripture? 2. Do you believe all of the offices listed in Ephesians 4: 11-12 are still valid for the church today? 3. Are the gifts of the Spirit as outlined in 1 Corinthians 12:7-11 still valid in the church today? 4. Do real angels of God, still work in our midst today at God’s pleasure? 5. Are there real demons at work to cause confusion and havoc in our midst just like the ones Jesus cast out when He walked this earth? 6. If you believe demons are real today, do we as born again believers have authority over them and the ability to cast them out as Jesus did? 7. Do you believe Jesus may appear to any individual of His choosing as He appeared to Stephen, Paul and John? I didn’t even ask a question about the resurrection or return of the Lord. We all have the right to have our beliefs posted on this forum but equally we all may be challenged at times.

 

[Luke17:37]

no you can't make anything fit
-history is the only way to confirm what has been prophesied
-nearly 2000 years later you would expect most if not all has already taken place
-things which must shortly take place
-for the time is near
-why would you still be looking to the future?

Jesus said He was coming quickly and He's not here yet.

Revelation 22:7
7 “Behold, I am coming quickly! Blessed is he who keeps the words of the prophecy of this book.”

Revelation 22:12
12 “And behold, I am coming quickly, and My reward is with Me, to give to every one according to his work.

Revelation 22:29
20 He who testifies to these things says, “Surely I am coming quickly.”
Amen. Even so, come, Lord Jesus!

God has a different idea of "quickly" (2 Peter 2:3-9). Mockers will reject His literal bodily coming, even as they rejected His creation and His first global judgment, the flood.

This is how God thinks:

2 Peter 3:8-9
8 But, beloved, do not forget this one thing, that with the Lord one day is as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day. 9 The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some count slackness, but is longsuffering toward us, not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance.

Jesus acknowledges the wait clearly in Luke 18:1-8.

Luke 18:7-8
7 And shall God not avenge His own elect who cry out day and night to Him, though He bears long with them? 8 I tell you that He will avenge them speedily. Nevertheless, when the Son of Man comes, will He really find faith on the earth?”

On the one hand, He affirms that He will avenge the Church speedily. On the other hand, He acknowledges that the elect cry out for a long time.

This is what I call, "Perceived Lateness." It is also a part of all three parables between Matthew 24:45 and Matthew 25:30. In the eyes of men, it will be a long time waiting for Jesus' return (it's been nearly 2,000 years). In the eyes of God, it comes quickly and speedily.

 

[Luke17:37]

do you expect the return of Christ prior to the thousand year reign?

Yes, absolutely

 

[victorinus]

Are angels figurative as well?

they could be
-just answered one of your 12 questions
-there is a limit to how many you can ask
-I will limit myself to just one
-do you think I am a preterist?
-anyway thank you for your rant
-I enjoyed it

 

[victorinus]

Yes, absolutely

where does it say Christ will reign?

 

[Postvieww]

they could be
-just answered one of your 12 questions
-there is a limit to how many you can ask
-I will limit myself to just one
-do you think I am a preterist?
-anyway thank you for your rant
-I enjoyed it

Nice dodge. 1 out of 12 I'll take what I can get. Your 1 answer is a pretty good indication of how you would have answered the rest, thanks.

 

[victorinus]

Jesus said He was coming quickly and He's not here yet.

Revelation 22:7
7 “Behold, I am coming quickly! Blessed is he who keeps the words of the prophecy of this book.”

that is what john the baptist wrote and Jesus did come soon after that

 

[victorinus]

Nice dodge. 1 out of 12 I'll take what I can get. Your 1 answer is a pretty good indication of how you would have answered the rest, thanks.

what about my one question
-do you think I am a preterist?

 

[victorinus]

-666 is a year

from gibbon we get
"Forty-six years after the flight of Mahomet from Mecca, his disciples appeared in arms under the walls of Constantinople"

you get exactly 666
using
the islamic calendar calculator

Revelation 15:2King James Version (KJV)

2 And I saw as it were a sea of glass mingled with fire: and them that had gotten the victory over the beast, and over his image, and over his mark, and over the number of his name, stand on the sea of glass, having the harps of God.

they used greek fire to defeat them in the year 666
and
the sea of marmara on a calm day is like a sheet of glass

 

[Postvieww]

what about my one question
-do you think I am a preterist?

Based on these statements from post #1 and another thread. Yes

“-I am an historicist and simply look for what fits

-history is all we have and we should use it to help us understand what is presented in the apocalypse”

“-the first thing you do is look for an empire that lasted one thousand years

-then see if it fits if you find one

-I found one and it fits”

May we do 1 question at a time? If I owe you an apology for thinking you are a preterist after a few questions (maybe as many as 11) I will publicly apologize on this forum.

My 1st question is did Jesus return in fulfillment of scripture in 70 AD?

 

[victorinus]

My 1st question is did Jesus return in fulfillment of scripture in 70 AD?

no, we are still waiting for the second coming and everyone will know when that happens
-I am an historicist and a postmillennialist
-what are you?

 

[parousia70]

My 1st question is did Jesus return in fulfillment of scripture in 70 AD?

In fulfillment of THIS scripture, absolutely.

33 “Hear another parable: There was a certain landowner who planted a vineyard and set a hedge around it, dug a winepress in it and built a tower. And he leased it to vinedressers and went into a far country.34 Now when vintage-time drew near, he sent his servants to the vinedressers, that they might receive its fruit. 35 And the vinedressers took his servants, beat one, killed one, and stoned another. 36 Again he sent other servants, more than the first, and they did likewise to them.37 Then last of all he sent his son to them, saying, ‘They will respect my son.’ 38 But when the vinedressers saw the son, they said among themselves, ‘This is the heir. Come, let us kill him and seize his inheritance.’ 39 So they took him and cast him out of the vineyard and killed him.

40 “Therefore, when the owner of the vineyard comes, what will he do to those vinedressers?”

41 They said to Him, “He will destroy those wicked men miserably, and lease his vineyard to other vinedressers who will render to him the fruits in their seasons.”

42 Jesus said to them, “Have you never read in the Scriptures:

‘The stone which the builders rejected
Has become the chief cornerstone.
This was the Lord’s doing,
And it is marvelous in our eyes’?

43 “Therefore I say to you, the kingdom of God will be taken from you and given to a nation bearing the fruits of it. 44 And whoever falls on this stone will be broken; but on whomever it falls, it will grind him to powder.”

45 Now when the chief priests and Pharisees heard His parables, they understood that He was speaking of them.

Jesus, Lord of the Vineyard, was the Stone that came and ground those wicked men to Powder in 70AD.