victorinus

[victorinus]

-while most of my views have been held or suggested by someone at some point in time, I will start with one that is truly unique
-the four horsemen
-there has been little agreement in this area
-many if not most don't even attempt to identify them
-the artists show them riding together and most believe this
-I don't
-few consider the color which is important
-some think the rider of the white horse is Christ
-others think he is the anitchrist
-the artist shows the rider with a bow and crown
-how do you conquer without the arrows?
-just search the bible for bow and you will find it is a rainbow signifying a covenant between God and man
-so who did more for christianity than any other man?
-constantine
-what about the color?
-he came from the white sea
-even today the turks refer to the mediterranean as the white sea
-it is a rough sea with white caps

 

[victorinus]

Yes, I believe the thousand years is literal. Victorinus did, and Jerome did not.

But what text of Victorinus are you using? The text of Martine Dulaey, Victorin de Poetovio. Sur l’Apocalypse et autres écrits (Source Chrétiennes 423. Paris: Les Éditions du Cerf, 1997) speaks at length of the seven churches.

that is easy for you to say
-I provided a link for my victorinus source in post 6
-can you do the same?
-in my source victorinus mentions the seven churches paul wrote to

 

[victorinus]

-constantine made the world safe for chrisitianity
-eusebius in his church history makes constantine sound like the second coming
-today many hold him responsible for all the evils religion has brought upon us
-go figure
-constantine got all the bishops together and forced them to agree on a creed for christians
-to get them all on the same page he had fifty bibles written
-all the bishops knew he was the boss
-a man led by God to get His church going
-others claim he just used the church to increase his power
-who cares?
-constantine made christianity a world religion
-for the time being they could ring the bells
-constantine helped them get the bells and the buildings to house them
-constantine chained the dragon for a thousand years

 

[victorinus]

-speaking of the devil
-he was given a sword and a red horse
-from the red sea
-to take peace from the world
-the worst thing that could happen to christianity
-he that denieth the Father and the Son
-the first beast, whose deadly wound was healed
-it was diverse from all the beasts that were before it; and it had ten horns
-he must be loosed a little season
-These shall make war with the Lamb
-And I saw as it were a sea of glass mingled with fire: and them that had gotten the victory over the beast, and over his image, and over his mark, and over the number of his name, stand on the sea of glass(rev 15:2)
-greek fire was used on the sea of marmara
-the city was constantinople
-the year was 666

 

[victorinus]

-what could be worse than the second beast?
-the rider of the black horse
-karl marx
-the father of communism
-from the black sea
-religion of any kind is now the enemy
-lucky for christians islam is more of a threat
-with the fall of the russian empire
-the beast is let loose again for a little season

 

[Job8]

history is all we have and we should use it to help us understand what is presented in the apocalypse

I have not checked what Victorinus wrote (but I will), but this premise of yours is incorrect. We have BOTH history and prophecy. History can only tell us so much. But Bible prophecy reveals the future to us, and the Apocalypse is primarily about the future.

 

[victorinus]

I have not checked what Victorinus wrote (but I will), but this premise of yours is incorrect. We have BOTH history and prophecy. History can only tell us so much. But Bible prophecy reveals the future to us, and the Apocalypse is primarily about the future.

history is the only thing that can confirm the accuracy of prophecy

 

[Job8]

history is the only thing that can confirm the accuracy of prophecy

For prophecies which have been fulfilled, not for those yet to be fulfilled.

 

[victorinus]

For prophecies which have been fulfilled, not for those yet to be fulfilled.

the biggest problem is recognizing what has been fulfilled
-it is not possible if you do not have the correct interpretation
-the jews are still waiting for the messiah

 

[Postvieww]

-constantine made the world safe for chrisitianity
-eusebius in his church history makes constantine sound like the second coming
-today many hold him responsible for all the evils religion has brought upon us
-go figure
-constantine got all the bishops together and forced them to agree on a creed for christians
-to get them all on the same page he had fifty bibles written
-all the bishops knew he was the boss
-a man led by God to get His church going
-others claim he just used the church to increase his power
-who cares?
-constantine made christianity a world religion
-for the time being they could ring the bells
-constantine helped them get the bells and the buildings to house them
-constantine chained the dragon for a thousand years

victorinus said:
constantine chained the dragon for a thousand years

Was Constantine an angel? Revelation 20:1-2

 

[victorinus]

victorinus said:
constantine chained the dragon for a thousand years

Was Constantine an angel? Revelation 20:1-2

not looking for an angel
not looking for a chain
just looking for a thousand years
what are you looking for?

 

[victorinus]

-don't know much about the pale horse
-my guess is natural disasters
-we may be reaching a point where nature kills more people than man
-I do believe we are in the fourth quarter and the rider of the pale horse is in charge
-beware and get your house in order
-the time is near

 

[Postvieww]

not looking for an angel
not looking for a chain
just looking for a thousand years
what are you looking for?

Consistency! If the angel or the chain mentioned in the word of God is not important then neither is the thousand years. Why accept one and not the others?

 

[victorinus]

Consistency! If the angel or the chain mentioned in the word of God is not important then neither is the thousand years. Why accept one and not the others?

go with the literal unless it doesn't make sense
I might even consider the thousand years figuratively if I couldn't find one but it does say there is an end to it so I need to consider that as well
-common sense tells me not to look for a dragon or chain
-I will look for a beast but don't expect it to be an animal
-I expect it to be a system or institution
-study history and you might find something that is mentioned in prophecy

 

[parousia70]

I might even consider the thousand years figuratively if I couldn't find one

There is one solitary passage pertaining to "1000 years" in the entire Bible (Rev 20:1-9). There are zero mentions of it in the Old Testament, gospels or epistles. One can't find a single other mention of the so-called "millennium" anywhere else in scripture. Not anywhere.

The fact is, there is no literal 1000 years. The bible writers leave no place anywhere on any timeline that accommodates a literal 1000 years. Here's how we know the "1000 Years" of Rev 20 is a symbol and cannot be a true time period:

#1) Christ's judgment of the living and the dead together occurs at his coming (2 Tim 4:1; Rev 11:15,17-18). Premillennialists wrongly divide this judgment up into multiple events over a long epoch. Thus, premillennialism is false.

#2) The resurrection of the dead occurs at his coming (1 Cor 15:22-23), and this resurrection is of the just and unjust together (John 5:27-29, Acts 24:15, Daniel 12:1-2). Premillennialists wrongly divide this resurrection up into multiple events over a long epoch. Thus, premillennialism is false.

#3) It is on the last day that Jesus both raises to life (Jn 6:44,54) AND judges the wicked (Jn 12:48). Premillennialists claim that the wicked are not judged and raised simultaneously with the righteous on the last day. Thus, premillennialism is false.

#4) Paul says the "Day of the Lord/Thief in the Night" occurs at the Second Coming (1 Thess 5:2-5); Peter says the "Day of the Lord/Thief in the Night" occurs at the passing of "heavens and Earth" (2 Peter 3:10); Jesus says the Thief in the Night related to the first-century churches (Rev 3:2-3). As we see, no literal 1000 years can be made to fit in here anywhere. The New Heavens/Earth and Second Coming are clearly simultaneous. Thus, premillennialism is false.

#5) Christ's reign isn't limited to 1000 years, nor are we still waiting for it to begin as classic dispensationalists claim. Rather, Christ's Kingdom is eternal (Isa 9:6-7). He has been the King of Kings for 20 centuries now and is the only Sovereign of Heaven and Earth (Matt 28:18-19/Rev 1:5-6/1 Tim 6:15/1 Pet 3:22). We are not waiting for Christ to reign. He reigns, and the increase of his government has no end. Thus, premillennialism is false.


As we see, Premillennialists wrongly divide these singular events into many scattered events and intersperse them over a long period of a thousand years, with some parts happening at some "rapture," some happening at the coming, and some happening after the completion of a literal thousand years. That clearly contradicts scripture. Scripture thus refutes premillennialism.

There is no literal thousand years. It's a fact. Jesus, Daniel, and Paul, in their non-vision statements, are clear about this. St. John, who has countless symbolic uses for his writing and who does not give a sequential pattern of events, should not be understood literally--his VISION is a story that parallels some generation of God's cataclysmic judgment upon Israel. It it obvious that the generation in view is St. John's own then-contemporary generation (Rev 1:1,3; 22:6-7; 22:10-11). It is obvious that the cataclysmic judgment is the destruction of apostate Jerusalem and the Temple which took place in John's time, and concerning which Christ spoke at length.

 

[Luke17:37]

-where do you start?
-at the beginning
-who wrote it and why??
-john the baptist to prepare the way
-I laughed the first time I heard this
-years later I realized it was the only explanation that made sense
-it explains why the introduction uses the name john three times
-it explains why there is no agreement as to who wrote it and when
-it explains many other unusual things that others are not even aware of

John the Baptist was beheaded before Jesus' earthly ministry was through. The seven churches of Revelation were not established when John the Baptist was killed... there were no churches yet at all, because it was before Jesus died, rose, ascended, and sent the Holy Spirit at the Feast of Pentecost. Revelation was written by John the Apostle (one of Jesus' twelve closest disciples), the same one who wrote the book including the scene where John the Baptist testified concerning Jesus, "Look, the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world!" (John 1:29).

 

[Luke17:37]

-who is victorinus?
-he wrote the oldest commentary on the apocalypse
-me?
-someone who has been obsessed with the apocalypse for 20 years
-it all started with louis farakan calling the pope a harlot on tv based on rev 17
-I then decided to find the correct interpretation
-I have and would like to share it with you
-most of my views had already been held by others
-I have a few views that seem to be unique
-what I am presenting here is not the official view of the catholic church
-the church does not have an official view
-happy to be here and find here others who are also interested in daniel and the apocalypse
-we may not agree but we should at least attempt to understand each other
-I am an historicist and simply look for what fits
-history is all we have and we should use it to help us understand what is presented in the apocalypse
-most do not have the time for this
-most do not have to understand this
-some of us have no other choice
-we have to study this
-thanks for listening

I don't think the historist view works, personally. I believe most of Revelation (seals, trumpets, bowls, etc.) are future and will be literally fulfilled.

 

[victorinus]

premillennialism is false.

#5) Christ's reign isn't limited to 1000 years,

I agree
-it doesn't say Christ will reign for a thousand years
-it says they will reign with Christ
-I am a postmillennialist
-I believe in a literal thousand years because I found one and it fits
-you should start a thread with your post
-thank you

 

[victorinus]

John the Baptist was beheaded before Jesus' earthly ministry was through. The seven churches of Revelation were not established when John the Baptist was killed... there were no churches yet at all, because it was before Jesus died, rose, ascended, and sent the Holy Spirit at the Feast of Pentecost. Revelation was written by John the Apostle (one of Jesus' twelve closest disciples), the same one who wrote the book including the scene where John the Baptist testified concerning Jesus, "Look, the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world!" (John 1:29).

yes but you ignore my argument that there was more than one version of the apocalypse
-the first written by john the baptist to prepare the way
-the second that included the churches
-and possibly a third that somehow made it into the bible
-three different johns

 

[victorinus]

I don't think the historist view works, personally. I believe most of Revelation (seals, trumpets, bowls, etc.) are future and will be literally fulfilled.

futurism works only if you can ignore the past
-the jews are all futurists
-they are still looking for the messiah