Vaccination: Mandate Momentum

[whatbogsends]

I can't help but wonder if some people don't realize there is preferable alternative to all of this.

I live in a decent size city (~1M people) and as of a couple days ago, we had zero people hospitalized with COVID-19.

Meanwhile looking at places like Florida and they're setting new records for hospitalizations.

It doesn't have to be that way.

Do you believe that Covid is the only issue when discussing public health?

How many in your city were hospitalized due to heart issues? Do you know if the rates of admissions for heart issues are higher or lower than historical levels?

I've seen no data about overall health outcomes in vaccinated vs unvaccinated populations. As far as i can tell, that data is not available. All of the data that comes out is specifically Covid outcomes in those 2 groups. If the vaccines were as safe as they claim, the overall outcomes would reflect that in their data.

 

[Ignatius the Kiwi]

The vaccinations are not being forced, insofar as nobody is holding you down and jabbing a needle into your arm, or threatening you with fines or imprisonment if you don't vaccinate.

The choice to vaccinate or not is just that -- a choice. But for every choice, there are consequences.

Parents who choose not to vaccinate their children will find the public school system has made choices of its own in that matter. Their choice, their consequence.



Because while you might consider me to be your enemy, you are not mine.

I hope you're right regards to forced vaccinations. Yet the talk from the elites would indicate there's a direction they are pushing us in and that there's even stirring about this subject leads me to think that it is a goal down the line. Your word on this is not all that assuring.

I'm glad we agree that bodily autonomy on medical issues is essential.

Also, in terms of civilization we are enemies. Always know your friends and who has your best interest.

 

[TLK Valentine]

I hope you're right regards to forced vaccinations. Yet the talk from the elites would indicate there's a direction they are pushing us in and that there's even stirring about this subject leads me to think that it is a goal down the line. Your word on this is not all that assuring.

Businesses have a right to enforce reasonable rules regarding their employees or even their customers. And if those rules include "No shirt, no shoes, no vax, no service," that's them exercising their autonomy.

I'm glad we agree that bodily autonomy on medical issues is essential.

But of course I believe that -- I'm pro-choice, after all.

Also, in terms of civilization we are enemies. Always know your friends and who has your best interest.

Again, you might consider me to be your enemy -- why, I neither know nor care.

But for me to consider someone else an "enemy," I must believe that some sort of parity exists, or at the very least, that such a person represents some sort of threat to me and/or mine.

 

[Ignatius the Kiwi]

Businesses have a right to enforce reasonable rules regarding their employees or even their customers. And if those rules include "No shirt, no shoes, no vax, no service," that's them exercising their autonomy.

They sure do. If people consume less all the better.

But of course I believe that -- I'm pro-choice, after all.

I naturally believe in bodily autonomy as well. Which is why I'm pro-life.

Again, you might consider me to be your enemy -- why, I neither know nor care.

But for me to consider someone else an "enemy," I must believe that some sort of parity exists, or at the very least, that such a person represents some sort of threat to me and/or mine.

I would say my way of thinking represents a threat to your liberal understanding of the world. That should be enough for you to consider me an enemy if you were smart.

 

[TLK Valentine]

They sure do. If people consume less all the better.

If people consume less the global economy collapses -- but that's a different problem.

I naturally believe in bodily autonomy as well. Which is why I'm pro-life.

A whimsical thought process which is best discussed elsewhere.

I would say my way of thinking represents a threat to your liberal understanding of the world. That should be enough for you to consider me an enemy if you were smart.

In a world where all ways of thinking were equally powerful and influential, yes -- but in the world as it is, it's as much an obstacle to my liberalism as The Great Wall of Lilliput.

 

[Ignatius the Kiwi]

If people consume less the global economy collapses -- but that's a different problem.

If the system keeps going the way it's going it's going to collapse anyway.

A whimsical thought process which is best discussed elsewhere.

I agree. The fantastical thoughts of the pro-choice are better discussed elsewhere.

In a world where all ways of thinking were equally powerful and influential, yes -- but in the world as it is, it's as much an obstacle to my liberalism as The Great Wall of Lilliput.

I won't try to persuade you from history the countless regimes that have all thought themselves unstoppable and the end point of human development.

Still, you should, if you are serious, regard your intellectual opponents for who they are. Enemies.

 

[BNR32FAN]

They will die in their ignorance and take many others with them thinking they are the righteous

what others will they take with them? The others who chose not to be vaccinated?

 

[BNR32FAN]

I believe many Churches are to blame especially the evangelical ones in nature, instead of teaching love others and help others along with belief in Christ they instead teach believe and don't worry about anything else. We are seeing the fruits of this "selfish Christianity" which teach care about you and your earthly freedoms and nothing else. This is now killing people

Again which people is this killing? The people who chose not to be vaccinated? Why would I be responsible for a person dying of COVID when they have the ability to protect themselves by being vaccinated? Why wouldn’t their death be their own fault for choosing not to be vaccinated and everyone knows that a vaccinated person can still contract and transmit the virus just as much as an unvaccinated person. So how are unvaccinated people any more of a threat to others than vaccinated people especially when businesses are posting signs saying that vaccinated people don’t have to wear a mask? The vaccinations are giving people a false sense of security.

 

[RDKirk]

So you’re comparing mrna to chemicals in food?

Most of the current health problems in America are caused by the chemicals in our food.

 

[TLK Valentine]

If the system keeps going the way it's going it's going to collapse anyway.

But of course -- Capitalism must grow and cover new markets in order to succeed... so what happens when it goes global and has no new markets?

Unless we make contact with aliens, we've got a problem...

I agree. The fantastical thoughts of the pro-choice are better discussed elsewhere.

Fantastical thoughts such as bodily autonomy...

I won't try to persuade you from history the countless regimes that have all thought themselves unstoppable and the end point of human development.

Good idea -- best to cut your losses.

Still, you should, if you are serious, regard your intellectual opponents for who they are. Enemies.

An "enemy" must show itself to be a threat -- my other "intellectual opponents" might fit this category depending on their ability to put their ideas into action. You, if I may be blunt, do not.

 

[RDKirk]

Do parents not have a choice in the USA as to whether or not their children get vaccinated? I mean you're saying this is a horror in a sarcastic manner, but when it comes to medical treatments I would have thought some level of autonomy is to be respected. If you give the state this power now, who knows what they'll justify doing to you In the future on even more flimsy grounds.

If they are attending public school, they largely don't get the choice of being unvaccinated and attending public school.

They can go without vaccination and homeschool or attend a private school that does not require vaccination.

And there are many reasons why Christian parents should take that option, and their children out of public school, anyway.

 

[TLK Valentine]

If they are attending public school, they largely don't get the choice of being unvaccinated and attending public school.

They can go without vaccination and homeschool or attend a private school that does not require vaccination.

And there's the choice -- one or the other, but you can't have both.

Most adults understand the concept.

And there are many reasons why Christian parents should take that option, and their children out of public school, anyway.

And while it's true that plenty of parents might not be able to afford taking their children out of public school, then the choice has been taken away from them -- not by the government, but by their own economic situation... and whose fault is that?

 

[RDKirk]

And while it's true that plenty of parents might not be able to afford taking their children out of public school, then the choice has been taken away from them -- not by the government, but by their own economic situation... and whose fault is that?

I believe that if Christians pooled our resources and really got serious about it, we can find a way to combine homeschooling with private schooling. But we'd have to transform our minds away from typical American materialism.

 

[KCfromNC]

Do parents not have a choice in the USA as to whether or not their children get vaccinated?

Varies from state to state.

If you give the state this power now, who knows what they'll justify doing to you In the future on even more flimsy grounds.

That's not an argument. That's just being scared of something which isn't even happening for precisely no reason.

 

[KCfromNC]

I've seen no data about overall health outcomes in vaccinated vs unvaccinated populations.

Funny, I've seen a few

Nearly all COVID deaths in US are now among unvaccinated
COVID-19 Cases Rapidly Increasing in Unvaccinated North Carolinians; Hospitalizations Doubled in Two Weeks | NCDHHS
Vast majority of ICU patients with COVID-19 are unvaccinated, ABC News survey finds

And so on, and so on.

 

[Ignatius the Kiwi]

That's not an argument. That's just being scared of something which isn't even happening for precisely no reason.

You're right. It's not an argument. Rather it's an observation on the escalation of power and how it is used politically.

 

[whatbogsends]

Funny, I've seen a few

Nearly all COVID deaths in US are now among unvaccinated
COVID-19 Cases Rapidly Increasing in Unvaccinated North Carolinians; Hospitalizations Doubled in Two Weeks | NCDHHS
Vast majority of ICU patients with COVID-19 are unvaccinated, ABC News survey finds

And so on, and so on.

None of those are about overall health outcomes. Those are all outcomes specifically related to Covid.

Of course, my request was obvious, and the narrow view your data presents was known before you posted it, but your continued intellectual dishonesty comes as no surprise, considering you've been engaging in it for some time.

 

[KCfromNC]

You're right. It's not an argument. Rather it's an observation on the escalation of power and how it is used politically.

Or in the case of vaccination policy in the US, how it hasn't and isn't used.

 

[Ignatius the Kiwi]

Or in the case of vaccination policy in the US, how it hasn't and isn't used.

Hopefully they don't change that then. When a conversation about a topic like forced vaccination begins, it signals momentum around the idea. I've seen people advocate or be fine with the idea of putting the unvaccinated in internment camps.

So long as you're not for forced vaccinations we don't really disagree.

 

[KCfromNC]

I've seen people advocate or be fine with the idea of putting the unvaccinated in internment camps.

Perhaps express your worry in reaction to those specific posts? It seems like a weird thing to bring up unprompted when no one else is even considering it.

So long as you're not for forced vaccinations we don't really disagree.

No, very much a "decisions have consequences" or "you have a freedom to choose, so does your employer, school, local businesses and so on" thing for me. Plus throwing a bunch of unvaccinated people in prison together sounds like it would just make the problem worse.