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I don't want to rain on you parades, but the Father's house, is his Church.
Dear Marty: In My Father's House are many places of abode. There are many degrees of union & communion, as in "manifold". There are manifold dimensions of the knowledge of our Lord, there are many degrees and intensity of union with Him!
Manifold=
the definition of manifold
Poikilos=
Manifold - Vine's Expository Dictionary of New Testament Words
You'll have to expand on that a bit for me, if you don't mind.
P.S. Good to see you again, FineLinen.
Dear Marty: It is good to see you again through this screen.
I know not how to expand on the manifold dimensions of our God. Our Father's House has many places of abode, or many dwelling places. These dimensions of Him reach from the lowest union to the extraordinary, actually described as being "saved to the uttermost", meaning to the farthest edge.
We are all on different stages of a journey whose beginning and ending is the Lord God of Glory. It is not just making it home to His Being, it encompasses dimensions of union with Him, none of which are identical.
My friend, F.L. must leave it there for now. May He expand all of us!
Nonsense! Typical UR twisting of scripture. Who is 1 Cor addressed to? ch. 1 vs. 2 "Unto the church of God which is at Corinth, to them that are sanctified in Christ Jesus,"
Nonsense! The lost world is not building on the foundation of Christ!
Total rubbish Paul does not say anything which would indicate that the subject changed from the "saved in the church at Corinth" to "lost sinners."
Placing vs. 15 before vss. 12-14 does not change the subject. The subject of vs. 15, "any man" is the same "any/every man" as in vss. 10-15 those who build on the foundation of Jesus Christ.
"This foundation" vs. 12 is "Jesus Christ," vs. 10. Sinners are not building anything, of any material, on the foundation of Jesus Christ!
"Every man's work" vs. 13 is what was built on the foundation of Jesus Christ, vs. 10, not all the "work" of sinners. Now let us read vss. 16-17.
1 Corinthians 3:16-17The subject of this chapter is laborers together with God, God's husbandry, God's building who build on the foundation of Jesus Christ. That is who vss. 16-17 are addressed to. Paul said you plural, not "they". Unless you can show some grammatical reason to believe that the subject changed back and forth in this passage.
(16) Know ye not that ye [plural] are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?
(17) If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are.
The reason I asked you to expound on you theory, is because there are a lot of people who take the Bible to be literal, which it clearly is not. That's not you position though, is it?
Dear Marty: I have over 20 translations of the Scriptures & I love every one of them (some more than others). There are a lot of people (especially fundagelicals) who take all passages of Canon literally. The problem= all expressions of Canon are bathed in "mystery." The Lord's hand picked 12 rarely understood Him & declared "how can these things be? If we think the march of 2000 years gives us a preferred advantage....oh my, thank God for the anointing!
Do you know an astronomer was drawn to a pinprick of light in the heavens of zillions of stars & galaxies recently? Do you know what he found from that one small point of light? Yup, cascading out from that pinprick were more galaxies & stars. I hope you are grasping the significance of our Amazing God & Father!
Mystery - Vine's Expository Dictionary of NT Words - Bible Dictionary
Well, I agree that the scriptures are bathed in mystery, but I don't think that means that we can't understand them.
Do you have anything but repeating the same specious arguments over and over and over? Evidently not. Repeating the same false rhetoric multiple times does not somehow make it true. You twist scripture, you twist the sources you quote and now you even twist my words accusing me of saying something I certainly did not say.I posted:
Verse 17 refers to the lost sinner:
1 Cor.3:17 If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are.
DA replied:
Yet you've admitted yourself that v.17 refers to a lost person who is obviously therefore a sinner, hence (as i said) a lost sinner. Are you now contradicting yourself? Or have you changed your viewpoint?
Who the letter is addressed to is irrelevant to the subject of who 1 Cor.3:15 is referring to. Just because a letter is addressed to someone does not prove its contents are speaking ONLY about the person it is addressed to. It could speak about MANY other people & topics, such as angels, all mankind, nations, Satan, covenants, other churches, Jews, Gentiles, & other topics besides the one solitary church in Corinth.
I posted:
Verse 11 refers to all mankind, including the lost sinner:
1 Cor.3:11 For other foundation can no one lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ.
DA replied:
Verse 11 says nothing about anyone "building" on the foundation. It says "no one" (i.e. no person) can another foundation "lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ". By "no one" it refers to all people, all mankind, not just the saints in one city, Corinth.
I posted:
Verse 11 says that "no one" can lay any foundation other than the one that has been laid which is Jesus Christ. The words "no one" are not limited to the saints in Corinth, but refer to all mankind. This is the last reference identifying any group of people in the next several verses leading up to v.15. Thus prior context and the more immediate following context of v.15, namely v.17, both refer to lost sinners. That is the context in which verse 15 is to be interpreted as to who it should refer to:
1 Cor.3:15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.
DA replied:
Not so. See above.
Sinful works - wood, hay & stubble - are being built on the foundation of Jesus Christ (see 1 Cor.3:12) & will be burnt up (v.13-15). This is being done by the sinners (v.11, 17) referred to above. That includes both sinning believers who lost their salvation (v.17) & unbelieving sinners (v.11). You agree that the believer (cf. 17) builds on the foundation. And having lost his salvation cannot enter the kingdom of God in his sinful lost state (6:9-11). So he must first be saved as by fire (1 Cor.3:15).
As to unbelieving sinners, Paul didn't say only believers can build on the foundation [Christ] works of "gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble". Scripture says: "That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world." (Jn.1:9). He lighteth "every man", not just Christians. So every man could be said to build on Christ by his life's works according to how one responds to the "Light" which "lighteth every man". And the quality of those works, whether of precious metals or useless things (1 Cor.3), would depend on how each one responded to that "Light" which "lighteth every man", not just Christians. If they build with "silver" (1 Cor.3:12), which represents atonement or redemption in the Scriptures, then they build with faith in Christ's death for their sins. Building with "wood, hay and stubble, OTOH, which contain no silver, is not building with faith & represents unbelief, the unbeliever.....
Do you have anything but repeating the same specious arguments over and over and over? Evidently not. Repeating the same false rhetoric multiple times does not somehow make it true. You twist scripture, you twist the sources you quote and now you even twist my words accusing me of saying something I certainly did not say.
Irrelevant not scripture.
Dear Marty: I did not infer we cannot understand them. All one needs is the opening of the mind & heart as He leads us down the twists and turns of His movings. He leads each of us into Himself from which we begin to grasp what is written in black & white. Do not forget those white spaces between the lines!
I agree with this. I've spent lots of time following these arguments and checking Scripture. I'm convinced that Paul thought that at the end everyone would be Christ's. Jesus (particularly in Matthew) seems more easily understood as speaking of the final destruction of some. It's virtually impossible to combine these without unnatural exegesis.This is another case of there being apparently conflicting verses in Scripture.
While there are some verses that seem to support the Universalist view, there are many more that appear to slam the door on it! You have cited some of the latter ones.
…..According to three irrefutable Jewish sources; the Jewish Encyclopedia, Encyclopedia Judaica and the Talmud, quoted below, among the Jews in Israel before and during the time of Jesus there was a belief in a place of everlasting torment of the wicked and they called it both sheol and gehinnom.I agree with this. I've spent lots of time following these arguments and checking Scripture. I'm convinced that Paul thought that at the end everyone would be Christ's. Jesus (particularly in Matthew) seems more easily understood as speaking of the final destruction of some. It's virtually impossible to combine these without unnatural exegesis.
The best hope I see is to understand Jesus as speaking of temporary punishment. That was certainly a common Jewish view. Paul speaks in 1 Corinthians 5:5 of destruction that ultimately results in salvation. It's also pretty clear that Jesus saw his mission as bringing the Kingdom now, on earth as it is in heaven. Possibly being excluded from the Kingdom thus refers to the immediate Kingdom, and Matthew's "eternal" punishment in 25:46 is the Jewish concept of temporary punishment, referred to as eternal because it's in the afterlife.
But I don't think this is how we'd understand Jesus if we didn't have Paul. That's why I've tended to argue for annihilation, which I think is the best way to understand Jesus (when his imagery is read against its OT background), and possibly the Revelation (though I think it's ambiguous). You might be able to reconcile Paul with this. I don't think you can possibly understand Paul as accepting eternal torment, nor do I think it's consistent with any Christian view of God.
The best argument for universalism is that the NT portrays Jesus as defeating Satan. In the conventional view, Satan is in control of the world, and God manages to rescue a few people from it. But both Jesus and Paul see him as wholly defeated. The defeat isn't fully visible now, which is why we're not in the New Jerusalem yet, but his eventual defeat is sure.
How can we believe that and believe that most people will be damned? If damnation is basically Satan's work, and he is defeated, there's a problem. To say that most people end up rejected, we have to say that rejection is God's plan. He only wants to save a few of us. Of course that's acceptable to Calvinists. But I don't think it's Biblical. In the Bible God wants everyone to be saved. And most Christians reject the Calvinist vision. But that's the only vision in which eternal damnation of most people makes sense. In the NT, Satan is the enemy of humanity.
LOL! Sorry man, my bad!
If eternal condemnation is not real, then that means we can do anything we want in this life,
And I'm pleased to have us agree, considering that it often seems to go the other way.I agree with this. I've spent lots of time following these arguments and checking Scripture.
But I don't think this is how we'd understand Jesus if we didn't have Paul.
…..According to three irrefutable Jewish sources; the Jewish Encyclopedia, Encyclopedia Judaica and the Talmud, quoted below, among the Jews in Israel before and during the time of Jesus there was a belief in a place of everlasting torment of the wicked and they called it both sheol and gehinnom.
…..There were different groups within Judaism; Sadducees, Pharisees, Essenes etc. and there were different beliefs about resurrection, hell etc. That there were other beliefs does not change or disprove anything in this post.
Jewish Encyclopedia, Gehenna[Note, this is according to the ancient Jews, long before the Christian era, NOT any supposed bias of Christian translators. DA]
The place where children were sacrificed to the god Moloch … in the "valley of the son of Hinnom," to the south of Jerusalem (Josh. xv. 8, passim; II Kings xxiii. 10; Jer. ii. 23; vii. 31-32; xix. 6, 13-14). … the valley was deemed to be accursed, and "Gehenna" therefore soon became a figurative equivalent for "hell." Hell, like paradise, was created by God (Sotah 22a);
(I)n general …sinners go to hell immediately after their death. The famous teacher Johanan b. Zakkai wept before his death because he did not know whether he would go to paradise or to hell (Ber. 28b). The pious go to paradise, and sinners to hell (B.M. 83b).When Jesus taught about e.g.,
But as regards the heretics, etc., and Jeroboam, Nebat's son, hell shall pass away, but they shall not pass away" (R. H. 17a; comp. Shab. 33b). All that descend into Gehenna shall come up again, with the exception of three classes of men: those who have committed adultery, or shamed their neighbors, or vilified them (B. M. 58b).[/i]
… heretics and the Roman oppressors go to Gehenna, and the same fate awaits the Persians, the oppressors of the Babylonian Jews (Ber. 8b). When Nebuchadnezzar descended into hell, [ שׁאול /Sheol]] all its inhabitants were afraid that he was coming to rule over them (Shab. 149a; comp. Isa. xiv. 9-10). The Book of Enoch [x. 6, xci. 9, etal] also says that it is chiefly the heathen who are to be cast into the fiery pool on the Day of Judgment (x. 6, xci. 9, et al). "The Lord, the Almighty, will punish them on the Day of Judgment by putting fire and worms into their flesh, so that they cry out with pain unto all eternity" (Judith xvi. 17). The sinners in Gehenna will be filled with pain when God puts back the souls into the dead bodies on the Day of Judgment, according to Isa. xxxiii. 11 (Sanh. 108b).
Link: Jewish Encyclopedia Online
Note, scripture references are highlighted in blue.
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Encyclopedia Judaica:
Gehinnom (Heb. גֵּי בֶן־הִנֹּם, גֵּי בְנֵי הִנֹּם, גֵּיא בֶן־הִנֹּם, גֵּיא הִנֹּם; Gr. Γέεννα; "Valley of Ben-Hinnom, Valley of [the Son (s) of] Hinnom," Gehenna), a valley south of Jerusalem on one of the borders between the territories of Judah and Benjamin, between the Valley of *Rephaim and *En-Rogel (Josh. 15:8; 18:16). It is identified with Wadi er-Rababi.
…..During the time of the Monarchy, Gehinnom, at a place called Topheth, was the site of a cult which involved the burning of children (II Kings 23:10; Jer. 7:31; 32:35 et al.; see *Moloch). Jeremiah repeatedly condemned this cult and predicted that on its account Topheth and the Valley of the Son of Hinnom would be called the Valley of the "Slaughter" (Jer. 19:5–6).
In Judaism the name Gehinnom is generally used as an appellation of the place of torment reserved for the wicked after death. The New Testament used the Greek form Gehenna in the same sense.
Gehinnom
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
Talmud -Tractate Rosh Hashanah Chapter 1.
The school of Hillel says: . . . but as for Minim, [followers of Jesus] informers and disbelievers, who deny the Torah, or Resurrection, or separate themselves from the congregation, or who inspire their fellowmen with dread of them, or who sin and cause others to sin, as did Jeroboam the son of Nebat and his followers, they all descend to Gehenna, and are judged there from generation to generation, as it is said [Isa. lxvi. 24]: "And they shall go forth and look upon the carcases of the men who have transgressed against Me; for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched." Even when Gehenna will be destroyed, they will not be consumed, as it is written [Psalms, xlix. 15]: "And their forms wasteth away in the nether world," which the sages comment upon to mean that their forms shall endure even when the grave is no more. Concerning them Hannah says [I Sam. ii. 10]: "The adversaries of the Lord shall be broken to pieces."
Link: Tract Rosh Hashana: Chapter I.
• “Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:” Matthew 25:41These teachings tacitly reaffirmed and sanctioned the existing Jewish view of eternal hell, outlined above. In Matt. 18:6, 26:24 and Luk 10:12, see above, Jesus teaches that there is a punishmen than death or nonexistence. A punishment worse than death without mercy is also mentioned in Hebrews 10:28-31.
• "these shall go away into eternal punishment, Matthew 25:46"
• "the fire of hell where the fire is not quenched and the worm does not die, Mark 9:43-48"
• "cast into a fiery furnace where there will be wailing and gnashing of teeth,” Matthew 13:42, Matthew 13:50
• “But whoso shall offend one of these little ones which believe in me, it were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and that he were drowned in the depth of the sea.” Matthew 18:6
• “And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.” Matthew 7:23
• “woe unto that man by whom the Son of man is betrayed! it had been good for that man if he had not been born. ” Matthew 26:24
• “But I say unto you, that it shall be more tolerable in that day for Sodom, than for that city.” Luke 10:12
Heb 10:28 He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:Jesus is quoted as using the word death 17 times in the gospels, if He wanted to say eternal death in Matt 25:46, that is what He would have said but He didn’t, He said “eternal punishment.” The Sadducees did not believe in the resurrection, they knew that everybody died; rich, poor, young, old, good, bad, men, women, children, infants and knew that it had nothing to do with punishment and was permanent. When Jesus taught “eternal punishment” they would not have understood it as merely death, it would have meant something worse to them.
29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?
30 For we know him that hath said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people.
31 It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.
…..Concerning “punishment” one early church father wrote,
“‘Then these reap no advantage from their punishment, as it seems: moreover, I would say that they are not punished unless they are conscious of the punishment.” Justin Martyr [A.D. 110-165.] Dialogue with Trypho Chapter 4…..Jesus undoubtedly knew what the Jews, believed about hell. If the Jews were wrong, why would Jesus teach “eternal punishment,” etc. to Jews who believed, "The Lord, the Almighty, will punish them on the Day of Judgment by putting fire and worms into their flesh, so that they cry out with pain unto all eternity," which only reinforced those beliefs.
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