Universalism

[Tissue]

your problem not mine

Conversation: noun- informal interchange of thoughts, information, etc., by spoken words; oral communication between persons; talk; colloquy

If you are not willing to engage in this, then you will be ignored. You cannot expect to divebomb a thread on points in which your opinion is unassailable, then expect people to actually listen to what you say.

This is a conversation. Either participate or don't.

what is hell then?

A reservoir.

what is Satan?

The part of humanity that tends toward what is sinful.

what is Mormonism mor importantly.

A religion created in the mid-19th century by Joseph Smith in western New York. Currently based in Utah.

How long must they go through purity rituals?

572,049 years, 22 days, 13 hours, 41 minutes, 7 seconds.

I didn't say anything about rituals.

are you God? No.

'my thoughts are not your thoughts, your ways are not my ways, I tell you to do things and you do them' - God

we are free to think of our own accord.

This is an unassailable position. Surely God owes us some indication that he actually is good, when he appears to be evil. There is no such indication for hell. Am I simply supposed to take an eternal hell on faith, or should I instead affirm that God is good, and head in the direction which seems to make sense with that claim: that is, that there is no eternal hell?

'Tissue says it, that settles it,' dosen't fly either,

This comment implies that I am trying to settle something. It is quite obvious that I am only participating in a conversation, and not trying to end it. I allow that my position is open to criticism. You, apparently, do not. That is our difference.

'Bible says it, that settles it,' that flys very well.
"all scripture is God-breathed"

We are arguing about the interpretation of Scripture. We are not ignorant of the verses you quote. We simply do not agree with your interpretation.

you are not calling good evil for the sake of God, you are being led by faith rather than your mere human understanding.

Faith is knowledge. Faith is the implanted knowledge of things above by the Holy Spirit. Faith occupies the gooey, gray matter in our brains. Without our brains, faith does not exist. If no brains existed, no faith at all would exist (for why would God, the only known example of a disembodied mind, need faith?).

Faith operates in mere human understanding. Faith is human. Just as the Bible is a human book, and is material, and can burn.

 

[Rajni]

so let me get this straight. Mormons go to heaven? Mormonism teaches God came from another world, has a goddess wife, and that we can become gods of our own worlds.

As 1 Corinthians 15:22 and Romans 5 point out, everyone who died in Adam
(that's everybody) will be made alive again in Christ. By the time the
transforming power of Christ is finished with anyone who may currently be a
Mormon, they will be made alive again in Him, not in their Mormonism. They
don't get to take their Mormonism with them to heaven when they go
there. They will be transformed, the same way anyone who is now a
believer was transformed.

No personal ideology is too big for God to fix.





.

 

[PT Calvinist]

Conversation: noun- informal interchange of thoughts, information, etc., by spoken words; oral communication between persons; talk; colloquy

If you are not willing to engage in this, then you will be ignored. You cannot expect to divebomb a thread on points in which your opinion is unassailable, then expect people to actually listen to what you say.

This is a conversation. Either participate or don't.

Because I don't want to conform to your theological views which I see as heresy? go ahead.

572,049 years, 22 days, 13 hours, 41 minutes, 7 seconds.

there goes eternity.

This is an unassailable position. Surely God owes us some indication that he actually is good, when he appears to be evil. There is no such indication for hell. Am I simply supposed to take an eternal hell on faith, or should I instead affirm that God is good, and head in the direction which seems to make sense with that claim: that is, that there is no eternal hell?

But you know God is good because he said he's good. But as I stated, our justification is not God's justification.
If this is so impossible to comprehend, by all means continue universalism.

This comment implies that I am trying to settle something. It is quite obvious that I am only participating in a conversation, and not trying to end it. I allow that my position is open to criticism. You, apparently, do not. That is our difference.

our difference is our faith capacity.

We are arguing about the interpretation of Scripture. We are not ignorant of the verses you quote. We simply do not agree with your interpretation.

I think 2K's assumption on Universalists interpretation is quiet accurate. so no need to argue on mine and yours, since I'm obviously "Calvinist" and you are not.

Faith is knowledge. Faith is the implanted knowledge of things above by the Holy Spirit. Faith occupies the gooey, gray matter in our brains. Without our brains, faith does not exist. If no brains existed, no faith at all would exist (for why would God, the only known example of a disembodied mind, need faith?).

Faith operates in mere human understanding. Faith is human. Just as the Bible is a human book, and is material, and can burn.

this is sick to me. How can you assume such a thing? would you happen to be acting in sarcasm?

"1Now faith is being sure of what we hope for and certain of what we do not see. 2This is what the ancients were commended for.
3By faith we understand that the universe was formed at God's command, so that what is seen was not made out of what was visible."- Hebrews 11:1-3
​

 

[PT Calvinist]

As 1 Corinthians 15:22 and Romans 5 point out, everyone who died in Adam
(that's everybody) will be made alive again in Christ. By the time the
transforming power of Christ is finished with anyone who may currently be a
Mormon, they will be made alive again in Him, not in their Mormonism. They
don't get to take their Mormonism with them to heaven when they go
there. They will be transformed, the same way anyone who is now a
believer was transformed.

No personal ideology is too big for God to fix. .

That means that Satanists, Evolutionists, Atheists, and all cultists, will be "in Christ."
good response.

 

[ShermanN]

Recently, I've been thinking of the differing foundational beliefs of Calvinists, Armenianists, and Universalists.

Basically, Calvinism affirms the Sovereignty of God (God chooses man's eternal destiny); whereas Arminianism affirms that God loves all humans, they also affirm the Sovereignty of Man (that man ultimately chooses his eternal destiny through accepting or rejecting Christ "if given the opportunity"). Calvinism affirms that God loves some people and hates others; whereas Arminianism affirms that God loves all humanity. So Calvinists and Arminianists radically disagree upon their basic assumptions concerning salvation. Of course, they agree in their faith in damnation - the certainty of endless torment for some people (not them of course but others they are not specific about). These two groups have argued for 400 over years with no likelyhood of either side changing their beliefs concerning salvation for there are multiple scriptures that support both the concept that God is Sovereign and that God loves all humanity.

On the other hand, Universalism affirms both that God is Sovereign (man is not) and that God loves all of humanity (and hates none nor withholds his love from any), and thus in the end God really does save all of humanity and reconcile all things to Himself. Men are held accountable for their choices. Right choices result in blessings and life, wrong choices result in remedial punishment in this life and the afterlife as needed for the restoration of one's soul.

So concerning salvation, Universalists agree with both the foundational principles of Calvinism and Armenianism, but disagrees with them concerning damnation. It's amusing to me that Calvinist's and Armenianist's disagree concerning the essence of salvation, but agree upon the essence of damnation (endless separation from God). The Universalist agrees with both concerning the essence of salvation, but disagree with them both concerning the essence of "punishment in the afterlife".

Of course, the difficulty that we run into is that English versions are translated from a theological perspective that assumes the traditional doctrine of damnation, endless torture of the damned. Combine that with the reality that endless torture of the damned is taught as truth to believers from childhood (whether physical or spiritual) and one faces a formidable set of core beliefs to overcome to show anyone that scripture actually doesn't teach "endless torture of the damned".

I find it even more amazing how hostile some believers get when one questions, much less disagrees, with the concept of the Hell, especially when one considers that salvation is not contingent upon such. And if one goes further and suggests that the sacrifice of Christ really does accomplish its purpose - the redemption of all humanity, then some people come completely unglued often loosing all since of civility and reason. All this over a doctrine that isn't even necessary for salvation.

Simply put, Universalists believe that God is Sovereign (Calvinism); all humanity is dead in sin, eternally lost; and God Loves All Humanity (Armenianism);Ergo God saves all humanity, and all temporal and eternal punishment is remedial!

 

[PT Calvinist]

so you think God's righteous judgment upon those who reject Him as satanic theology.

 

[Tissue]

Because I don't want to conform to your theological views which I see as heresy? go ahead.

Oh, it's fine that you don't agree with me. Actually, I think it's great that you don't. It allows me to be more critical of my own views.

there goes eternity.

Great, eh? Changes hell from the holding place of eternal suffering (such that the world will never be rid of the evil of perpetual torment) to a place of instructive punishment, the sort that parents do to their children when they love them, but when their behavior needs to be edited.

But you know God is good because he said he's good. But as I stated, our justification is not God's justification.

Just because a person says that he or she is good does not mean he or she is good.

our difference is our faith capacity.

That has nothing to do with the nature or rationality of our argument at the moment, which is what I was originally referring to.

It's also an irrational statement, as you have no idea what my capacity for faith is, and no reasonable way to compare two capacities.

I think 2K's assumption on Universalists interpretation is quiet accurate. so no need to argue on mine and yours, since I'm obviously "Calvinist" and you are not.

I have a lot of Calvinist sympathies, actually. I am a rather strong determinist, for one.

this is sick to me. How can you assume such a thing? would you happen to be acting in sarcasm?

I do not assume it. I believe it.

 

[2 King]

Inquires of Universalists: Is it not true that according to your theology, all who openly hate, blaspheme, and reject God will be saved?

 

[Tissue]

After a period of purification in hell, yes. Otherwise, God is not good.

 

[2 King]

surely we must know God in truth and that doctrine helps us accurately determine who God really and truly is according to his revelation.

 

[2 King]

After a period of purification in hell, yes. Otherwise, God is not good.

Jesus said that anyone who blasphemes the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven.

 

[2 King]

How many people do you think actually do that? Willingly?

oh......Satanists for one.

 

[Tissue]

And plenty other "ists" besides. Whats the problem? Would you be disappointed if all people ended up reconciled to God?

Reminds me of the 'popular table' mentality, commonly found in middle schools.

 

[2 King]

so basically, according to universalist theology, We don't need a savior (being Jesus, God in the Flesh). Since after all we are all going to be saved. And that also means we are in no need of laws and we can kill continually and do whatever we want?

 

[2 King]

universalist does teach that all are saved. so it seems not to matter.

 

[Nadiine]

If you are really so ignorant as to believe that this is what universalist theology teaches or encourages then I suggest you do a bit more research.

How is that ignorant? That's exactly what is taught;
EVERYBODY repents, EVERYBODY ends up in eternal life
with God.

Some universalists reject any punishment at all as well.

 

[Tissue]

As I've said before, your description of Universalism would be akin to a description of Christianity as 'cannibilism' due to the Eucharist.

 

[2 King]

As I've said before, your description of Universalism would be akin to a description of Christianity as 'cannibilism' due to the Eucharist.

interesting how that only applies to Catholic doctrine on Transubstantiation and to some Schismatics

 

[Tissue]

How is that ignorant? That's exactly what is taught;
EVERYBODY repents, EVERYBODY ends up in eternal life
with God.

Some universalists reject any punishment at all as well.

That doesn't weave in ANY of the intricacies we've been talking about in this topic for PAGE AND PAGES. Are you even listening? Are you intelligent enough to pick up on the subtleties? Or are you simply forgetting?

For the sake of charity, I will assume you are simply forgetful. In which case, let me explain.

To speak of 'everyone saved' without the punishment is to miss the point entirely. It is to negate all salvation references in Scripture. It is to paint over much of the Universalist stance. It is to speak of something that we are not.

OF COURSE we need a Savior. How else would everyone be saved? OF COURSE Jesus' sacrifice is necessary. How else would everyone be saved? OF COURSE we cannot kill continuously.

Consistently, criticisms of Universalism involve the dumbing down of the 'standard' Christian faith into something that the criticizer would likely be horrified at; in this example, the accuser is essentially arguing that the only problem with sin is that it keeps us from going to heaven. Other times, criticizers implicitly claim that the only value of Jesus' message is to get everyone else out of heaven.

Instead of looking for any cheap route that appears to strike at Universalism, how about coming at this with an open mind? We are giving you the same treatment.

 

[Tissue]

interesting how that only applies to Catholic doctrine on Transubstantiation and to some Schismatics

This is irrelevant; please address my points.