Universalism

[2 King]

As I've said before, your description of Universalism would be akin to a description of Christianity as 'cannibilism' due to the Eucharist.

Christianity dosen't cannibalize itself. Only certain branches.

so it's not akin. Universalism dosen't have any branches, unless you count unitarian as one.

 

[preistsplace]

universalist does teach that all are saved. so it seems not to matter.

WITHOUT CHRIST NO ONE CAN BE SAVED.Christs sacrafice is what made it possible. Jesus Christ redeemed the world , not just a select few he paid for our sins while we were still sinners. Jesus Christ is the Savior of the World.
It matters very much. And statements like that seem to be implying that if the punishment is not eternal then the eternal life is of no importance.
Does someone else always have to suffer so we can be content?

 

[2 King]

Is the only consequence that actually 'matters' an eternity of unending suffering in your view?

In My view, God is the one who made us, he is the creator. The one who actually "Knows" what he's doing.

We are just a creation and yet we think just because God sends someone to hell for eternity that he is evil.

Who is the author of life? God. To call him and evil God is heresy. To be irresponsible and spread a lie that all go to heaven and that if they are disobedient that they just get a set date in hell which is coherent to prison is also heresy. Since the Bible dosen't ever say that hell is not eternal, nor that hell is like jail where you get a set date to suffer then your invited to heaven. Because that's the way alot of people take it.

What then of the parable of the Rich man and Lazarus? explain that.

also, If you believe that God is evil for sending someone to eternity in hell then you are saying that we are equal to God and that our thinking and ways are his thinking and ways. That our justification is his justification. He dosen't messure by human standards.

 

[Tissue]

so it's not akin.

Insofar as cannibilism is a gross misrepresentation of Christianity, so was your characterization a gross misrepresentation of Universalism.

Universalism dosen't have any branches, unless you count unitarian as one.

I consider Unitarian Universalism distinct from Christianity, and from my personal sympathies.

As for Christian Universalism not having any branches: The Christian Universalist Association > Special Events > Founding Board Meeting

 

[2 King]

WITHOUT CHRIST NO ONE CAN BE SAVED.Christs sacrafice is what made it possible. Jesus Christ redeemed the world , not just a select few he paid for our sins while we were still sinners. Jesus Christ is the Savior of the World.
It matters very much. And statements like that seem to be implying that if the punishment is not eternal then the eternal life is of no importance.
Does someone else always have to suffer so we can be content?

you misunderstood my statement then.

I was implying that it must not matter to universalists.

I believe hell is very real and is eternal.

 

[Tissue]

also, If you believe that God is evil for sending someone to eternity in hell then you are saying that we are equal to God and that our thinking and ways are his thinking and ways. That our justification is his justification. He dosen't messure by human standards.

I'm just supposed to assume God is good, despite the appearance of evil? If God says 2 + 2 = 5, I wouldn't be able to believe it. 2 + 2 = 4. It has to.

God says 'Taste and see that I am good'. If I taste him and find him to be sour/evil, doesn't that have implications upon the nature of what we believe?

Rather, if I discard the aspect of the tasting that appears to be evil, and find something that truly expresses his love and goodness and justice, then should I not latch on to this, much as Luther latched on to 'new' doctrine after years of being frustrated with an angry, over-demanding God?

 

[2 King]

I'm just supposed to assume God is good, despite the appearance of evil? If God says 2 + 2 = 5, I wouldn't be able to believe it. 2 + 2 = 4. It has to.

If you don't believe the words that come out of God's mouth then how can you believe the Bible?
"Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God."

God says 'Taste and see that I am good'. If I taste him and find him to be sour/evil, doesn't that have implications upon the nature of what we believe?

"Taste and see that the LORD is good; blessed is the man who takes refuge in him."- Psalms 34:8

In Context: 7 The angel of the LORD encamps around those who fear him,
and he delivers them.

8 Taste and see that the LORD is good;
blessed is the man who takes refuge in him. 9 Fear the LORD, you his saints,
for those who fear him lack nothing.

Rather, if I discard the aspect of the tasting that appears to be evil, and find something that truly expresses his love and goodness and justice, then should I not latch on to this, much as Luther latched on to 'new' doctrine after years of being frustrated with an angry, over-demanding God?

but in the bible it truly says "If your hand or your foot causes you to sin, cut it off and throw it away. It is better for you to enter life maimed or crippled than to have two hands or two feet and be thrown into eternal fire."- Matthew 18:8
would you be suggesting God to be a liar?

 

[2 King]

Psalm 34:8 is a call to worship. Knowing God also means to experience God.

1. example qquestions: experienced the comforting presence of God the Holy Spirit?
2. Have you felt the presence of God in grace or conviction?
3. Have you known the comfort of God through trials and testing?

 

[2 King]

It's always "someone else" who goes to this hell though isn't it? If it were you on the verge of being cast away into a pit of suffering or darkness forever then I imagine that you'd be crying out for mercy, not saying that the 'Creator could do what He wants'.
Your 'jail' analogy and 'heresy' has already been addressed several times over on this thread as it is. If it's 'heresy' to believe that God is the saviour of all men, especially of those who believe then yup, I'm a heretic.

It's heresy to believe that God and the Bible are liars when he clearly states in the Bible about being cast into eternal fire.

You made your own point with the rich man and Lazarus by calling it a parable. Indeed. Read literally it doesn't make sense. Not unless you believe that men on fire can actually speak and if they could they'd expend the energy on asking for a drop of water for their tongue. Somehow I would think that anyone capable of speech would be screaming for the whole fire to be put out, wouldn't you?

Sorry, I should've explained what my point would be for it.
If hell fire is false and if self-awareness after death is also false, then Jesus is using false doctrines to teach a truth. Parables illustrate truth. If it is a parable what does the consciousness after death symbolize? Also, what does the agony in flame symbolize? Are they not real? Of course they are.

 

[2 King]

What is the point of these questions in relation to the subject at hand?

just an example to show Tissue of what that verse meant.

 

[Tissue]

If you don't believe the words that come out of God's mouth then how can you believe the Bible?
"Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God."

Because the Bible is open to many interpretations, and provides many bits that need to be pieced together to create a reasonable theology, which allows for much diversity.

but in the bible it truly says "If your hand or your foot causes you to sin, cut it off and throw it away. It is better for you to enter life maimed or crippled than to have two hands or two feet and be thrown into eternal fire."- Matthew 18:8
would you be suggesting God to be a liar?

No. I am suggesting that either the translation of the Bible is in error, or the Bible itself is in error.

I am not Greek scholar, but I have heard that aionios, the word behind that verse and others, is more correctly rendered 'of the ages', which may, in its strongest case, mean everlasting, but may also mean a finite amount of time.

Eternal Punishment Reconsidered

 

[Tissue]

just an example to show Tissue of what that verse meant.

How is this relevant?

 

[2 King]

I am not Greek scholar, but I have heard that aionios, the word behind that verse and others, is more correctly rendered 'of the ages', which may, in its strongest case, mean everlasting, but may also mean a finite amount of time.

Eternal Punishment Reconsidered

interesting. Because I can prove the Universalist interpretation to be wrong. It would take to long though and I'd rather PM you about it, basically because of how long and time-consuming it would be.

 

[2 King]

How is this relevant?

it's not relevant anymore, our discussion has moved on.

When is was relevant was when you suggested the terminology of "tasting God" to be him coming out as a good taste. When really it is a call to worship and such as I explained in a previous post above.

 

[2 King]

Is it heresy to believe that God is the saviour of all men, especially of those who believe?

no.

They're metaphor. Do you think that the rich man was a literal man dressed in fine purple linen? Why do you think Jesus saw fit to describe the colour and material of his garments? hint: Israel. Lazarus also translates as "misery". Now look at what is often overlooked with this parable. How to treat others. The rich man showed no compassion towards someone who was destitute. Pieces falling into place?

I know the meaning.
so you're suggesting that Jesus was using false teachings to explain a truth?

 

[2 King]

seeing that I'm aptly speaking to deaf ears. I will stop and end conversation here.

I'm sure you feel the same way.

Stay Blessed.

 

[Bonez]

How is it not God's will? Does the bible not say that God wills all men to be safe and come to a knowledge of the truth? Even if you ascribe to the concept of eternal torment it's obvious that it's not God's Will that any should perish. No spin required.

Yes of course it's God's will that everyone be saved but none should perish, but you have to remember that man has free will. For if you decide for yourself that you want to go to hell, by not accepting Christ, that would be your will not God's. It is also God's will that everyone worship and keep Him holy.

It's all too easy to accuse others of 'taking verses out of context' when they don't tie in with what you already believe. Here's one verse where I don't need to put any spin on. Tim 4:10 "God is the saviour of all men, especially of those who believe". Now you tie this into eternal torment without redefining the word 'especially' into 'only' and we'll see who puts the spin on pasages

read on down the chapter to the end 4:16, Take heed unto thyself and unto the doctrine, continue in them, for by doing this thou shalt save thyself and those who hear thee.

hmm, only if you continue in God's doctrine that you will save yourself, from what? save yourself from nothing? no eternal hell.

As regards the lake of fire then Chaela already addressed it. Why would those who are already saved be thirsty?

We always thirst for God's rightousness, can't get enough of it.

 

[2 King]

Why would it be so long and time consuming? I'm still waiting for someone to explain why the word 'aidios' wasn't used if eternal was the intent. It's not as though it wasn't used elsewhere in the bible so why on such a crucial matter as this wasn't the one word used that would convey it in total clarity? I think it's pretty obvious why...

If only you knew how long it would take me to explain it to you and find the loop holes you would use and etc. you'd understand why. Maybe I'll just find a website and copy and paste as to why it's wrong.

You are entitled to your opinion as to why I will not explain it.

Conclusion: universalism covers a wide range of beliefs. Though belief in universalism, in and of itself, does not automatically void salvation, it has the potential danger of allowing false teachers to abide alongside true believers as well as deny basic Christian teaching such as eternal damnation. Therefore, to determine if a universalist is Christian, you must delve further into other areas of his belief system.

Stay Blessed.

 

[preistsplace]

you misunderstood my statement then.

I was implying that it must not matter to universalists.

I believe hell is very real and is eternal.

that murder and evil do not matter to us? perhaps by misunderstanding the punishment issue you could come to this conclusion.we are all sinners no one deserves eternal life more than another.

 

[timlamb]

You think Jesus does not bring judgment when He comes? Read on from Revelation 19:

17Then I saw an angel standing in the sun, and he cried out with a loud voice, saying to all the birds which fly in midheaven, "Come, assemble for the great supper of God,
18so that you may eat the flesh of kings and the flesh of commanders and the flesh of mighty men and the flesh of horses and of those who sit on them and the flesh of all men, both free men and slaves, and small and great."
19And I saw the beast and the kings of the earth and their armies assembled to make war against Him who sat on the horse and against His army. Doom of the Beast and False Prophet

20And the beast was seized, and with him the false prophet who performed the signs in his presence, by which he deceived those who had received the mark of the beast and those who worshiped his image; these two were thrown alive into the lake of fire which burns with brimstone.
21And the rest were killed with the sword which came from the mouth of Him who sat on the horse, and all the birds were filled with their flesh.

The read on in Revelation 20:

7When the thousand years are completed, Satan will be released from his prison,

8and will come out to deceive the nations which are in the four corners of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together for the war; the number of them is like the sand of the seashore. 9And they came up on the broad plain of the earth and surrounded the camp of the saints and the beloved city, and fire came down from heaven and devoured them.

When the thousand year reign begins, Jesus is on the throne ruling the earth and all who are alive are those who life through the tribulation wqithout worshipping the beast. After on thousand years the worls is greatly populated and Satan is turned lose and look what happens, the people are again decieved and chose to follow Satan. Hearts of men don't change. They didn't the first time Jesus walked the earth and they won't the second time.

Anything you say that happens after those are thrown into the Lake of Fire is flase teaching. There is no evidence of redemption beyond the second death, or beyond the first death for that matter.

Every prophecy about the first comming of Jesus came true LITTERALLY! Why would God start CHANGING His ways now? He wouldn't!!