Universalism...why not?

[Rajni]

Your brand of rationalization here isn't new;

Nothing about being rational is new. And nothing being put forth in this thread is new. I haven't seen a new, convincing argument against God's competence as Savior of the world since I kicked the partialist habit, and I'm certainly not holding my breath now.

 

[claninja]

Rom 9:14-24 What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid.
15 For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.
16 So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.
17 For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth.
18 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.
19 Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?
20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?
21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?
22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:
23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,
24 Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?

Israel was the vessel of destruction, and gentiles and elect remnant of Jews are the vessels of mercy. If there was no elect remnant of Jews, Israel (vessel of wrath) would have become like Sodom and Gomarrah: Romans 9:27-28

To get the full picture, you have to read past Romans 9:24. Romans 9-11 is all part of the same teaching and how Israel's hardening (vessels of wrath) benefits the gentiles (including remnant Jews: vessels of mercy). But the hardening of Israel (vessel of wrath) is not the end.

Romans 11:25-32
25 Lest you be wise in your own conceits, I want you to understand this mystery, brethren: a hardening has come upon part of Israel, until the full number of the Gentiles come in, 26 and so all Israel will be saved; as it is written,
“The Deliverer will come from Zion,
he will banish ungodliness from Jacob”;
27 “and this will be my covenant with them
when I take away their sins.”
28 As regards the gospel they are enemies of God, for your sake; but as regards election they are beloved for the sake of their forefathers. 29 For the gifts and the call of God are irrevocable. 30 Just as you were once disobedient to God but now have received mercy because of their disobedience, 31 so they have now been disobedient in order that by the mercy shown to you they also may[b] receive mercy. 32 For God has consigned all men to disobedience, that he may have mercy upon all.

This is an interesting piece of information that Paul provides near the end. He even goes on to praise God for this in Romans 11:33-36

Not remotely.
Once all the wicked are destroyed, burned up, no more, etc., then there is no more purpose for death.
Matt 13:49-50 So shall it be in the end of the world: the angels shall come forth, and sever the wicked from among the righteous, 50 and shall cast them into the furnace of fire: there shall be the weeping and the gnashing of teeth.

The term here for end of the world is literally translated the consummation of the age. In Hebrews 9:26, it says Christ appeared at the consummation of the ages to put away sin by his sacrifice. So technically the parable of the wheat and tares and the putting of away of sin by Christ's sacrifice take place at the same time, which was a long time ago.

 

[Dartman]

Excellent, you got the point. It's easy to exchange unsubstantiated claims, it just isn't persuasive.

Your claim that ... "much of the fiery judgment talk had to do with the then-impending fall of Jerusalem in 70 AD*. " offered just as much evidence as my response.

Many of the fiery judgment contexts FOLLOW Christ's return, and therefore are NOT discussing the Jews being punished for their rejection of Jesus, and his God.

I was using irony, which is why I had the winking smile icon at the end of that post.

Yes, I know, that is why I concluded that you got the point. Your reply was to my response, which matched YOUR restatement, without any attempt to add persuasive information. You merely repeated your position.

 

[Dartman]

Nothing about being rational is new. And nothing being put forth in this thread is new. I haven't seen a new, convincing argument against God's competence as Savior of the world since I kicked the partialist habit, and I'm certainly not holding my breath now.

Would you like me to explain the difference between rationalization, and actually BEING rational?
Rationalization is an attempt to explain or justify (one's own or another's behavior or attitude) with logical, plausible reasons, even if these are not true or appropriate.

 

[ClementofA]

This discussion misses the point. The context CLEARLY isn't stating "everyone will be saved". By contrast, it is showing that salvation is ONLY for those that believe.

Thank you for explaining the point this time. Since you emphasized the word "might" it seemed that your point might have been related to that. But without an explanation it was anybody's guess.

Re believing i don't think anyone engaged in this debate denies that salvation is through Christ & that involves believing in Him. The issue is re how many will believe or be tossed away by Love Omnipotent like a piece of garbage.

There is no opportunity to believe AFTER this life.
Heb 10:26-31 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins, 27 But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries. 28 He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses: 29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace? 30 For we know him that hath said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people. 31 It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.

Hebrews speaks of those who reject Christ as deserving a "sorer" punishment than death by Moses' law, i.e. stoning:

10:28 A man that hath set at nought Moses' law dieth without compassion on the word of two or three witnesses: 29 of how much sorer punishment, think ye, shall he be judged worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?

Stoning to death is not a very sore or longlasting punishment. People suffered far worse deaths via the torture methods of the Medieval Inquisitionists and the German Nazis under Hitler.

Therefore, if the writer of Hebrews believed the wicked would be punished with something so monstrous as being endlessly annihilated out of existence, he would not have chosen to compare their punishment to something so lame as being stoned to death. Clearly he did not believe Love Omnipotent is an unfeeling terminator machine who abandons forever the beings He created in His image & likeness so easily.

https://www.tentmaker.org/books/hope_beyond_hell.pdf

 

[Rajni]

Yes, I know, that is why I concluded that you got the point. Your reply was to my response, which matched YOUR restatement, without any attempt to add persuasive information. You merely repeated your position.

Is there a position (rationalization) on here that hasn't been repeated ad nauseam?

-

 

[Dartman]

Hebrews speaks of those who reject Christ as deserving a "sorer" punishment than death by Moses' law, i.e. stoning:

10:28 A man that hath set at nought Moses' law dieth without compassion on the word of two or three witnesses: 29 of how much sorer punishment, think ye, shall he be judged worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?

Stoning to death is not a very sore or longlasting punishment. People suffered far worse deaths via the torture methods of the Medieval Inquisitionists and the German Nazis under Hitler.

Therefore, if the writer of Hebrews believed the wicked would be punished with something so monstrous as being endlessly annihilated out of existence, he would not have chosen to compare their punishment to something so lame as being stoned to death. Clearly he did not believe Love Omnipotent is an unfeeling terminator machine who abandons forever the beings He created in His image & likeness so easily.

You have offered your opinion about the intentions of the author of Hebrews, in contrast to the actual words used by the author. That isn't exegesis.
The Bible very plainly states that God intended and intends to destroy those creations of His that reject Him.
The fact that humans reject His array of gifts is their choice, not His.

 

[The Times]

You have offered your opinion about the intentions of the author of Hebrews, in contrast to the actual words used by the author. That isn't exegesis.
The Bible very plainly states that God intended and intends to destroy those creations of His that reject Him.
The fact that humans reject His array of gifts is their choice, not His.

Your reply is a perfect reasoning to why God so wanting to save the world, gave his only begotten Son Christ Jesus, yet many choose the other guy and his doctrine of lies.

Therefore God can't do what he desires for all of humanity.

Jesus came to bring a sword of separation between his sheep/wheat and the Goats/Tares and yet the other guy at his coming will try to unite the world through a Unitarian Universalist salvation belief system, as long as the world and its religious leasders bow their knees to him.

Jerusalem according to Daniel was built up for the true Messiah Jesus Christ and so it remains that the Jerusalem being built up today is for the other guy.

Why? Because Jesus said so......

29I have told you now before it happens, so that when it does happen you will believe. 30I will not say much more to you, for the prince of this world is coming. He has no hold over me, 31but he comes so that the world may learn that I love the Father and do exactly what my Father has commanded me. (John 14:29-31)

 

[ClementofA]

You have offered your opinion about the intentions of the author of Hebrews, in contrast to the actual words used by the author. That isn't exegesis.
The Bible very plainly states that God intended and intends to destroy those creations of His that reject Him.
The fact that humans reject His array of gifts is their choice, not His.

Your interpretation of words like "destroy" is exegesis.

Your comment about "their choice, not His" is unsupported opinion.

 

[Der Alte]

Your interpretation of words like "destroy" is exegesis.
Your comment about "their choice, not His" is unsupported opinion.

No it is not unsupported opinion.

Joshua 24:15 And if it seem evil unto you to serve the LORD, choose you this day whom ye will serve; whether the gods which your fathers served that were on the other side of the flood, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land ye dwell: but as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD.
1 Kings 18:21
(21) And Elijah came unto all the people, and said, How long halt ye between two opinions? if the LORD be God, follow him: but if Baal, then follow him. And the people answered him not a word.​

Did the Israelites really not have a choice?

 

[mkgal1]

destroy those creations of His that reject Him.

....and my point (since I can only speak for myself) has been that there will be none of His creation that WILL (in the end) reject Him. Love never fails (it just may take a while ).

"Who will have all men to be saved, and come unto the knowledge of the truth." (1 Tim. 2:4)

Jesus said, "THY WILL BE DONE." (Matt. 6:10)

"My meat is to do the will of Him that sent me, and to finish his work". (John 4:34)


"When Jesus had tasted it, he said, "It is finished!" Then he bowed his head and released his spirit." (John 19:30 )

 

[Dartman]

Your interpretation of words like "destroy" is exegesis.

Your comment about "their choice, not His" is unsupported opinion.

Josh 24:14-15 Now therefore fear Jehovah, and serve Him in sincerity and in truth; and put away the gods which your fathers served beyond the River, and in Egypt; and serve ye Jehovah. 15 And if it seem evil unto you to serve Jehovah, choose you this day whom ye will serve; whether the gods which your fathers served that were beyond the River, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land ye dwell: but as for me and my house, we will serve Jehovah.

1 Kings 18:21-22 And Elijah came near unto all the people, and said, How long go ye limping between the two sides? if Jehovah be God, follow him; but if Baal, then follow him. And the people answered him not a word. 22 Then said Elijah unto the people, I, even I only, am left a prophet of Jehovah; but Baal's prophets are four hundred and fifty men.

1 Kings 18:38-40 Then the fire of Jehovah fell, and consumed the burnt-offering, and the wood, and the stones, and the dust, and licked up the water that was in the trench. 39 And when all the people saw it, they fell on their faces: and they said, Jehovah, he is God; Jehovah, he is God. 40 and Elijah said unto them, Take the prophets of Baal; let not one of them escape. And they took them; and Elijah brought them down to the brook Kishon, and slew them there.

Ezek 18:29-32 Yet saith the house of Israel, The way of the Lord is not equal. O house of Israel, are not my ways equal? are not your ways unequal? 30 Therefore I will judge you, O house of Israel, every one according to his ways, saith the Lord Jehovah. Return ye, and turn yourselves from all your transgressions; so iniquity shall not be your ruin. 31 Cast away from you all your transgressions, wherein ye have transgressed; and make you a new heart and a new spirit: for why will ye die, O house of Israel? 32 For I have no pleasure in the death of him that dieth, saith the Lord Jehovah: wherefore turn yourselves, and live.

 

[Dartman]

....and my point (since I can only speak for myself) has been that there will be none of His creation that WILL (in the end) reject Him. Love never fails (it just may take a while ).

I understand your theory. The problem with this theory is, Scripture doesn't agree.

Universalists have scoured the Scriptures, and have found a TINY handful of verses, that are worded in JUST such a way, that if you IGNORE all other Scriptures MIGHT MEAN everyone ends up saved.

For instance; "Who would have all men to be saved, and come unto the knowledge of the truth." (1 Tim. 2:4)

God wants all men to be righteous, and therefore saved. God didn't create all humans with the instinct to be righteous, by contrast God created all humans, including Jesus, with the craving to sin. AND, God designed human beings so that there would be parents to train those children. AND, God provided His words, through the prophets, so those parents would be guided in training those children. And when those children grew up, they would also have God's words as guides.

God isn't willing that any person sins. But God has decided to allow people to choose for them selves.
Jesus taught us to PRAY for God's will to be done on earth .... which certainly means it isn't a given.
Matt 6:10 "THY WILL BE DONE."

In contrast to universalist theories;

2 Peter 3:7 but the heavens that now are, and the earth, by the same word have been stored up for fire, being reserved against the day of judgment and destruction of ungodly men.

 

[mkgal1]

Universalists have scoured the Scriptures, and have found a TINY handful of verses

From what I understand......there's almost an equal amount of verses distributed between the three camps (Universal Reconciliation; Annihilation: and Eternal Torment). It doesn't take ignoring other Scripture to be of the belief of Universal Reconciliation.

There is nothing I read in this that contradicts my belief:

For instance; "Who would have all men to be saved, and come unto the knowledge of the truth." (1 Tim. 2:4)

......however...I have NEVER heard any Christian state this about Jesus (who is GOD):

God didn't create all humans with the instinct to be righteous, by contrast God created all humans, including Jesus, with the craving to sin.

.....not so. Jesus (GOD) has NO "craving to sin".

 

[Dartman]

From what I understand......there's almost an equal amount of verses distributed between the three camps (Universal Reconciliation; Annihilation: and Eternal Torment). It doesn't take ignoring other Scripture to be of the belief of Universal Reconciliation.

Again, there isn't a single text that clearly explains, defines or preaches the universalist theory.... while by contrast there are MANY texts that explain in detail that the wicked face destruction, death, being "burned up", they "will not be", they will "be no more".

......however...I have NEVER heard any Christian state this about Jesus (who is GOD):



.....not so. Jesus (GOD) has NO "craving to sin".

Heb 4:14-15 Seeing then that we have a great high priest, that is passed into the heavens, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold fast our profession. 15 For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin.

 

[ClementofA]

In contrast to universalist theories;

2 Peter 3:7 but the heavens that now are, and the earth, by the same word have been stored up for fire, being reserved against the day of judgment and destruction of ungodly men.

Once again, that is exegesis.

Regarding the Greek word for "destruction":

"684 /apoleia ("perdition") does not imply "annihilation" (see the meaning of the root-verb, 622 /apollymi, "cut off") but instead "loss of well-being" rather than being (Vine's Expository Dictionary, 165;"

Also the verse speaks of a "day" of judgement & destruction, not endless destruction.

Jesus' body was destroyed. Was it lost forever? No.

1Cor. 15: 24. Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.
25. For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.
26. The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.
27. For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith, all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him.
28. And when allthings shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.

https://www.tentmaker.org/books/hope_beyond_hell.pdf

 

[Dartman]

Regarding the Greek word for "destruction":

"684 /apoleia ("perdition") does not imply "annihilation" (see the meaning of the root-verb, 622 /apollymi, "cut off") but instead "loss of well-being" rather than being (Vine's Expository Dictionary, 165;"

You have posted a very biased definition.
NT:684 apoleia (ap-o'-li-a); from a presumed derivative of NT:622; ruin or loss (physical, spiritual or eternal): KJV - damnable (-nation), destruction, die, perdition, perish, pernicious ways, waste.
(Biblesoft's New Exhaustive Strong's Numbers and Concordance with Expanded Greek-Hebrew Dictionary.)
NT:684 apœleia destruction, waste, annihilation

Scope of meaning: The basic negative meaning of the entire word group, frequently with a violent tendency, aims to express loss, destruction, and annihilation in a very general sense which can extend to the final destruction of the human being in death.
(from Exegetical Dictionary of the New Testament © 1990 )

NT:684 apooleia, apooleias, hee

1. actively, a destroying, utter destruction: as, of vessels, Rom 9:22
2. passively, a perishing, ruin, destruction

a. in general: let thy money perish with thee, Acts 8:20
b. in particular, the destruction which consists in the loss of eternal life, eternal misery, perdition, the lot of those excluded from the kingdom of God: Rev 17:8,11
(from Thayer's Greek Lexicon, Electronic Database. Copyright © 2000, 2003, 2006 by Biblesoft, Inc. All rights reserved.)

Also the verse speaks of a "day" of judgement & destruction, not endless destruction.

Exactly! The Bible does NOT teach the wicked will forever be tortured! It teaches they will be utterly destroyed, "left neither root, nor branch", they will be "ashes under" the feet of the righteous, at least until the earth is renewed.

Mal 4:1-3 For, behold, the day cometh, that shall burn as an oven; and all the proud, yea, and all that do wickedly, shall be stubble: and the day that cometh shall burn them up, saith the Lord of hosts, that it shall leave them neither root nor branch. 2 But unto you that fear my name shall the Sun of righteousness arise with healing in his wings; and ye shall go forth, and grow up as calves of the stall.
3 And ye shall tread down the wicked; for they shall be ashes under the soles of your feet in the day that I shall do this, saith the Lord of hosts.

2 Peter 3:7 But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.

2 Peter 3:12-13 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat? 13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.

Rev 20:11-15 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them. 12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works. 13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. 14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. 15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

Rev 21:1-4 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea. 2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. 3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God. 4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.

1Cor. 15: 24. Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.
25. For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.
26. The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.
27. For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith, all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him.
28. And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.

This passage does a wonderful job of showing that God Himself is the source of Jesus' power, and that Jesus will hand over the kingdom to his God, AFTER all enemies are destroyed. The "enemies" include all rule, authority and power ... obviously that doesn't include Jesus' power, or his God's power ... so those that oppose Jesus are going to be destroyed, as Jesus explained in his parable of the pounds;
Luke 19:11-12 And as they heard these things, he added and spake a parable, because he was nigh to Jerusalem, and because they thought that the kingdom of God should immediately appear. 12 He said therefore, A certain nobleman went into a far country to receive for himself a kingdom, and to return.

Jesus ascended to heaven "to receive for himself a kingdom, and to return". When he returns, there will be enemies!

Luke 19:27 But those mine enemies, which would not that I should reign over them, bring hither, and slay them before me. (Compare Psa 2, Psa 110, Zech 14, Rev 19)

 

[Rajni]

God didn't create all humans with the instinct to be righteous, by contrast God created all humans, including Jesus, with the craving to sin.

Then God is directly responsible for the outcome, and can't very well be holding people responsible for performing according to the operating system with which He programmed them.

 

[Dartman]

Then God is directly responsible for the outcome, and can't very well be holding people responsible for performing according to the operating system with which He programmed them.

You're ignoring the rest of the information. God ALSO designed us with the ability to override our instincts.
God ALSO provided mankind His instructions, complete with hundreds of case studies of how to please Him, and how NOT to please Him.
God ALSO provided mankind incredible GRACE ... a process of repentance, and forgiveness for our failures.
God ALSO provides for mankind an AMAZING promise ... "seek and ye shall find, knock and it shall be opened"! This IRON CLAD guarantee, coupled with God's amazing creation (Rom 1:20) removes ANY excuse regarding "those natives in the darkest jungle", etc.

 

[Rajni]

You're ignoring the rest of the information. God ALSO designed us with the ability to override our instincts.
God ALSO provided mankind His instructions, complete with hundreds of case studies of how to please Him, and how NOT to please Him.
God ALSO provided mankind incredible GRACE ... a process of repentance, and forgiveness for our failures.
God ALSO provides for mankind an AMAZING promise ... "seek and ye shall find, knock and it shall be opened"! This IRON CLAD guarantee, coupled with God's amazing creation (Rom 1:20) removes ANY excuse regarding "those natives in the darkest jungle", etc.

How much simpler and more sensible it would have been to do all that without installing the sin-craving app alongside those other programs. It's like a programmer deliberately installing a virus alongside all the other goodies.