Universalism...why not?

[surrender1]

the bible teaches in the end hades (and death and the sea) will give up their dead and they are judged based on their deads. If not found in the book of life they are then thrown into the lake of fire, along with Death and Hades, this is called the second death. After this a new Heaven and new Earth are ushered in and the old Heaven and old Earth pass away.

The text (Rev 20-21) suggests that some are found in the book of life and not all are thrown into the lake of fire (these dead are not the redeemed) It would be in this judgment that seems to given the final determination to be either a second chance or second death. It isn't clear if the passing away of the old heaven/earth includes this lake of fire but an argument could certainly be made for that.

There is no indication that one can be saved once in the lake of fire and since both Death and Hades are also thrown in it suggests a permanent place (as we don't expect Death and Hades to come out). The lake of fire could be describe as annihilation or the passing away of heaven/earth describe as annihilation but the text just doesn't is not specific in that way.

But since "Death and Hades" (the personification of death itself) is thrown into the second death *first* then that would mean death has been destroyed *before* the unrepentant (those not found in the Lamb's book) are thrown in. How can they "die" if death has been destroyed already?

 

[Dartman]

the bible teaches in the end hades (and death and the sea) will give up their dead and they are judged based on their deads. If not found in the book of life they are then thrown into the lake of fire, along with Death and Hades, this is called the second death. After this a new Heaven and new Earth are ushered in and the old Heaven and old Earth pass away.

The text (Rev 20-21) suggests that some are found in the book of life and not all are thrown into the lake of fire (these dead are not the redeemed) It would be in this judgment that seems to given the final determination to be either a second chance or second death. It isn't clear if the passing away of the old heaven/earth includes this lake of fire but an argument could certainly be made for that.

There is no indication that one can be saved once in the lake of fire and since both Death and Hades are also thrown in it suggests a permanent place (as we don't expect Death and Hades to come out). The lake of fire could be describe as annihilation or the passing away of heaven/earth describe as annihilation but the text just doesn't is not specific in that way.

Actually, the very next chapter explains that once Jehovah/YHVH God renews the heavens and the earth, there will be no more pain, no more sorrow, and no more death. This is ONLY possible if the lake of fire is over.
This matches perfectly the passage in Mal 4:1-3;

For, behold, the day cometh, it burneth as a furnace; and all the proud, and all that work wickedness, shall be stubble; and the day that cometh shall burn them up, saith Jehovah of hosts, that it shall leave them neither root nor branch. 2 But unto you that fear my name shall the sun of righteousness arise with healing in its wings; and ye shall go forth, and gambol as calves of the stall. 3 And ye shall tread down the wicked; for they shall be ashes under the soles of your feet in the day that I make, saith Jehovah of hosts.

And, Mal 4:1-3 matches 2 Peter 3 perfectly;
2 Peter 3:5-17 For this they willfully forget, that there were heavens from of old, and an earth compacted out of water and amidst water, by the word of God;
6 by which means the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished:
7 but the heavens that now are, and the earth, by the same word have been stored up for fire, being reserved against the day of judgment and destruction of ungodly men.
8 But forget not this one thing, beloved, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.
9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some count slackness; but is longsuffering to you-ward, not wishing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall be dissolved with fervent heat, and the earth and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
11 Seeing that these things are thus all to be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in (all) holy living and godliness,
12 looking for and earnestly desiring the coming of the day of God, by reason of which the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?
13 But, according to his promise, we look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.
14 Wherefore, beloved, seeing that ye look for these things, give diligence that ye may be found in peace, without spot and blameless in his sight.
15 And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also, according to the wisdom given to him, wrote unto you;
16 as also in all (his) epistles, speaking in them of these things; wherein are some things hard to be understood, which the ignorant and unstedfast wrest, as (they do) also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.
17 Ye therefore, beloved, knowing (these things) beforehand, beware lest, being carried away with the error of the wicked, ye fall from your own stedfastness.

 

[Dartman]

But since "Death and Hades" (the personification of death itself) is thrown into the second death *first* then that would mean death has been destroyed *before* the unrepentant (those not found in the Lamb's book) are thrown in. How can they "die" if death has been destroyed already?

The destruction of the wicked is the process whereby death is eliminated/destroyed in the lake of fire.

 

[surrender1]

The destruction of the wicked is the process whereby death is eliminated/destroyed in the lake of fire.

Are you saying that the only way God can destroy death is by destroying all the unrepentant?
(And it's not just the "wicked", right? It's anyone who hasn't said "I believe in Jesus" even if he's been the most loving person on earth. Right?)

 

[ClementofA]

I really meant to stay out of this and just read from the sidelines, but this post......sheeesh!

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[DamianWarS]

But since "Death and Hades" (the personification of death itself) is thrown into the second death *first* then that would mean death has been destroyed *before* the unrepentant (those not found in the Lamb's book) are thrown in. How can they "die" if death has been destroyed already?

Yet the text speaks of a second death. There is greater support to annihilation than universalism in this text unless you are suggesting that during this judgement all will repent and be found in the book of life.

 

[surrender1]

Yet the text speaks of a second death.

Death of what? Old self? Doesn't fire burn up impurities?

There is greater support to annihilation than universalism in this text

Looks that way.

unless you are suggesting that during this judgement all will repent and be found in the book of life.

Well, Death and Hades (the personification of Death) is thrown in and destroyed. So, no more death. THEN the unrepentant are thrown in. But there is no more death. It was destroyed. So now what? Well, maybe the fire is symbolic for burning up all impurity and the unrepentant eventually "get it" and repent and are reconciled? After all, at the end of Revelation we see that the gates to the City are never shut. And Paul does say that just as one trespass led to the condemnation of all, one act of obedience leads to justification and life for all. (Rom. 5:18)

 

[DamianWarS]

Death of what? Old self? Doesn't fire burn up impurities?

Looks that way.

Well, Death and Hades (the personification of Death) is thrown in and destroyed. So, no more death. THEN the unrepentant are thrown in. But there is no more death. It was destroyed. So now what? Well, maybe the fire is symbolic for burning up all impurity and the unrepentant eventually "get it" and repent and are reconciled? After all, at the end of Revelation we see that the gates to the City are never shut. And Paul does say that just as one trespass led to the condemnation of all, one act of obedience leads to justification and life for all. (Rom. 5:18)

I don't see the text indicating a order of who or what is thrown in first. Judgment happens first then Death and Hades are thrown into the lake of fire which is an event call the second death. The text then points out that if any name is not found in the book of life their fate they are included in this event. 21:8 repeats this saying "But as for the cowardly, the faithless, the detestable, ... their portion will be in the lake that burns with fire and sulfur, which is the second death." The second death is an event that includes the unrepentant as well as hades and death itself.

 

[surrender1]

I don't see the text indicating a order of who or what is thrown in first.

My ESV Rev. 21:13-15 says,
And the sea gave up the dead which were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead which were in them; and they were judged, every one of them according to their deeds. Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire. And if anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.

I see an order here: 1) sea gave up dead, 2) Death gave up dead, 3) Dead are judged, 4) Death thrown into fire, 5) Dead thrown into fire. Not sure what gives me permission to change the order and say, "First the dead are thrown in and then Death is thrown in."

Judgment happens first then Death and Hades are thrown into the lake of fire which is an event call the second death.

Yes. The death of Death. The destruction of death which is the promise of 1 Corinthians 15:26 where it says "the last enemy to be destroyed is death" resulting in the universal taunt "Where oh death is your sting? Where oh hell is your victory?" when "All who died in Adam will be made alive in Christ."

The text then points out that if any name is not found in the book of life their fate they are included in this event. 21:8 repeats this saying "But as for the cowardly, the faithless, the detestable, ... their portion will be in the lake that burns with fire and sulfur, which is the second death." The second death is an event that includes the unrepentant as well as hades and death itself.

The first death (from the first Adam) brings death, but "the second death" (from the second Adam) is the death of death, and therefore brings life. This "fire" purges all evil and results in the gold (the true image of God) coming forth.

 

[Dartman]

Are you saying that the only way God can destroy death is by destroying all the unrepentant?

Where do you get this "the only way God can" notion?? I've never said God is limited in what He "can" do. There is definitely ONE thing God reveals that He cannot do..... and that is LIE.

The Scripture records God's statements, and He cannot lie, that all the wicked will be destroyed.

Ezek 18:26-32 When the righteous man turneth away from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, and dieth therein; in his iniquity that he hath done shall he die. 27 Again, when the wicked man turneth away from his wickedness that he hath committed, and doeth that which is lawful and right, he shall save his soul alive. 28 Because he considereth, and turneth away from all his transgressions that he hath committed, he shall surely live, he shall not die. 29 Yet saith the house of Israel, The way of the Lord is not equal. O house of Israel, are not my ways equal? are not your ways unequal? 30 Therefore I will judge you, O house of Israel, every one according to his ways, saith the Lord Jehovah. Return ye, and turn yourselves from all your transgressions; so iniquity shall not be your ruin. 31 Cast away from you all your transgressions, wherein ye have transgressed; and make you a new heart and a new spirit: for why will ye die, O house of Israel? 32 For I have no pleasure in the death of him that dieth, saith the Lord Jehovah: wherefore turn yourselves, and live.

The Scripture ALSO records God's promise that AFTER He "makes all things new", there will be no more death, no more sorrow and no more pain.

(And it's not just the "wicked", right? It's anyone who hasn't said "I believe in Jesus" even if he's been the most loving person on earth. Right?)

No. The "most loving person on earth" is the most obedient;
1 John 5:2-3 By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God, and keep His commandments. 3 For this is the love of God, that we keep His commandments: and His commandments are not grievous.

 

[surrender1]

Where do you get this "the only way God can" notion?? I've never said God is limited in what He "can" do.

My ESV Rev. 21:13-15 says,
And the sea gave up the dead which were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead which were in them; and they were judged, every one of them according to their deeds. Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire. And if anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.

I see an order here: 1) sea gave up dead, 2) Death gave up dead, 3) Dead are judged, 4) Death thrown into fire, 5) Dead thrown into fire. Not sure what gives me permission to change the order and say, "First the dead are thrown in and then Death is thrown in."

The Scripture records God's statements, and He cannot lie, that all the wicked will be destroyed.

Ezek 18:26-32 When the righteous...

How do you know this isn't just temporary physical death? Or, in context, that when destruction of the wicked is mentioned by the prophets, they aren't actually talking about wicked nations?

The Scripture ALSO records God's promise that AFTER He "makes all things new", there will be no more death, no more sorrow and no more pain.

Yes.

No. The "most loving person on earth" is the most obedient;

So someone can not know Jesus but be the most loving person on earth and find themselves saved at the final judgment?

 

[Dartman]

My ESV Rev. 21:13-15 says,
And the sea gave up the dead which were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead which were in them; and they were judged, every one of them according to their deeds. Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire. And if anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.

The use of "then" isn't supported in the Greek. TOTE is the Greek word meaning "then" in a sequential context. The Greek in Rev 20:14 is KAI, meaning "and".

The first death (from the first Adam) brings death, but "the second death" (from the second Adam) is the death of death, and therefore brings life.

Not according to this context, or any other.
Rev 20:6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power ..
This proves that "second death" is NOT a good thing, and that it is contrasted with the situation of those in the first resurrection. The FIRST resurrection is to life, the Second resurrection of the wicked is to condemnation/destruction/everlasting shame;
Dan 12:2-3 Multitudes who sleep in the dust of the earth will awake: some to everlasting life, others to shame and everlasting contempt.
John 5:28-29 28 "Do not be amazed at this, for a time is coming when all who are in their graves will hear his voice 29 and come out — those who have done good will rise to live, and those who have done evil will rise to be condemned.

Rev 20:13-15 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. 14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. 15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

 

[Dartman]

Where do you get this "the only way God can" notion?? I've never said God is limited in what He "can" do.

My ESV Rev. 21:13-15 says,
And the sea gave up the dead which were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead which were in them; and they were judged, every one of them according to their deeds. Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire. And if anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.

I see an order here: 1) sea gave up dead, 2) Death gave up dead, 3) Dead are judged, 4) Death thrown into fire, 5) Dead thrown into fire. Not sure what gives me permission to change the order and say, "First the dead are thrown in and then Death is thrown in."

You didn't answer my question.

The Scripture records God's statements, and He cannot lie, that all the wicked will be destroyed.

Ezek 18:26-32 When the righteous man turneth away from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, and dieth therein; in his iniquity that he hath done shall he die. 27 Again, when the wicked man turneth away from his wickedness that he hath committed, and doeth that which is lawful and right, he shall save his soul alive. 28 Because he considereth, and turneth away from all his transgressions that he hath committed, he shall surely live, he shall not die. 29 Yet saith the house of Israel, The way of the Lord is not equal. O house of Israel, are not my ways equal? are not your ways unequal? 30 Therefore I will judge you, O house of Israel, every one according to his ways, saith the Lord Jehovah. Return ye, and turn yourselves from all your transgressions; so iniquity shall not be your ruin. 31 Cast away from you all your transgressions, wherein ye have transgressed; and make you a new heart and a new spirit: for why will ye die, O house of Israel? 32 For I have no pleasure in the death of him that dieth, saith the Lord Jehovah: wherefore turn yourselves, and live.

How do you know this isn't just temporary physical death? Or, in context, that when destruction of the wicked is mentioned by the prophets, they aren't actually talking about wicked nations?

1) The context is VERY specifically discussing individuals... not nations.
2) EVERYONE dies, so the context CANNOT be discussing mortal death.
3) The verse says the person being condemned to die, has ALREADY died! The criteria is; " committeth iniquity, and dieth therein; in his iniquity that he hath done shall he die."

So someone can not know Jesus but be the most loving person on earth and find themselves saved at the final judgment?

No. The "most loving person on earth" is the most obedient;
1 John 5:2-3 By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God, and keep His commandments. 3 For this is the love of God, that we keep His commandments: and His commandments are not grievous.

 

[ClementofA]

By the Grace of God the ideology of Universalism will be destroyed by the breath of the Lord's mouth.

Three people indicated this post is funny.

 

[The Times]

Three people indicated this post is funny.

Ok.

 

[Rajni]

Very LITTLE of the "fiery judgement" talk has ANYTHING to do with 70AD!!


One can ONLY maintain the delusion that this text means every human being will eventually be saved, IF you ignore virtually every other passage on the subject.

I totally didn't see this kind of response coming.
It has changed my mind completely.

 

[Rajni]

Are you saying that the only way God can destroy death is by destroying all the unrepentant?

Apparently, like a doctor who can't treat a very treatable illness but rather simply euthanizes the whole individual. Such a doctor would be in way over his head (did he cheat his way through medical school?).

In the event of the common objection along the lines of: "Oh but it's not that He can't, but that He won't." Well, if that's the case, then that doctor would need to have his medical license revoked.

Yet the text speaks of a second death. There is greater support to annihilation than universalism in this text unless you are suggesting that during this judgement all will repent and be found in the book of life.

The text could speak of a 42nd death if it wanted to, but scripture says the same about death in general. It gets destroyed. Therefore, logically speaking, anything that has been considered an individual's "death", whether it be annihilation or endless torture in a place with no air-conditioning and only fat-free Ranch dressing, would no longer exist.

-

 

[Dartman]

I totally didn't see this kind of response coming.
It has changed my mind completely.

Excellent, you got the point. It's easy to exchange unsubstantiated claims, it just isn't persuasive.

Your claim that ... "much of the fiery judgment talk had to do with the then-impending fall of Jerusalem in 70 AD*. " offered just as much evidence as my response.

Many of the fiery judgment contexts FOLLOW Christ's return, and therefore are NOT discussing the Jews being punished for their rejection of Jesus, and his God.

 

[Dartman]

Apparently, like a doctor who can't treat a very treatable illness but rather simply euthanizes the whole individual. Such a doctor would be in way over his head (did he cheat his way through medical school?).

In the event of the common objection along the lines of: "Oh but it's not that He can't, but that He won't." Well, if that's the case, then that doctor would need to have his medical license revoked.

Your brand of rationalization here isn't new;

Rom 9:14-24 What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid.
15 For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.
16 So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.
17 For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth.
18 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.
19 Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?
20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?
21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?
22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:
23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,
24 Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?

The text could speak of a 42nd death if it wanted to, but scripture says the same about death in general. It gets destroyed. Therefore, logically speaking, anything that has been considered an individual's "death", whether it be annihilation or endless torture in a place with no air-conditioning and only fat-free Ranch dressing, would no longer exist.-

Not remotely.
Once all the wicked are destroyed, burned up, no more, etc., then there is no more purpose for death.
Matt 13:49-50 So shall it be in the end of the world: the angels shall come forth, and sever the wicked from among the righteous, 50 and shall cast them into the furnace of fire: there shall be the weeping and the gnashing of teeth.

 

[Rajni]

Excellent, you got the point. It's easy to exchange unsubstantiated claims, it just isn't persuasive.

Your claim that ... "much of the fiery judgment talk had to do with the then-impending fall of Jerusalem in 70 AD*. " offered just as much evidence as my response.

Many of the fiery judgment contexts FOLLOW Christ's return, and therefore are NOT discussing the Jews being punished for their rejection of Jesus, and his God.

I was using irony, which is why I had the winking smile icon at the end of that post.