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Featured Universalism...why not?

Discussion in 'Controversial Christian Theology' started by surrender1, Jun 1, 2017.

  1. God doesn't want all men to be saved.

    4 vote(s)
    8.2%
  2. God can't do what he wants to do.

    2 vote(s)
    4.1%
  3. Neither, God will continue to work on unrepentant souls because his love & patience are unending.

    40 vote(s)
    81.6%
  4. Don't know...never thought about this before.

    3 vote(s)
    6.1%
  1. ClementofA

    ClementofA Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Like the rest of us you'll have to wait for the afterlife for a long descriptive story of the specifics of each individual's salvation. Even then it may be irrelevant & not given. Scripture only gives general simplistic statements regarding salvation in this life, let alone salvation in the next life. So to ask people for detailed reports is to ask them to go beyond the revelation of the Scriptures God has given and is to ask the impossible.

    I see no reason to make such assumptions or that the salvation experience of each unique individual hereafter will be any less unique than it is in this life. But to ask for specifics on one individual, Hitler, & how he will be saved, is obviously not known. For all we know he was saved before he died. And why ask about him in particular? Why not ask about a 5 or 15 year old who died after rejecting the gospel & without recieving Jesus into her heart? How do you figure the salvation in this life of a 5 or 15 year old compares to the salvation of a Christ persecutor like Saul of Tarsus or hardened wicked men in old age (e.g. Hitler types)?

    Is that how your salvation worked? Stuff was "swept under the rug"? I can't ever recall any universalist speaking in such terms. Is the real issue with you like that of the prodigal son story, & you are like the envious brother who feels the prodigal doesn't deserve salvation?

    Do you ascribe to free will in the long run? Will God take away free will in heaven to keep everyone safe & saved? Or will He allow them the freedom of free will to rebel (like some say the heavenly angels, now demons, did)?

    If every free will choice has a 50% chance of going either way, it would be mathematically impossible for one to reject God forever. Although once one is saved & immortal, what happens to freewill then? Does God take free will away to keep everyone safe and saved, or does He allow His created beings the chance to rebel again? Does incorruption imply that there will not be free will to sin?

    In general the Early Church Father Christian universalists were, i think, believers in freewill. Even if it took many ages for all to finally be saved, God would obtain His desired will eventually. Today some CU's are in the freewill camp & others are not, just like Calvinists and Arminians.

    https://www.tentmaker.org/books/hope_beyond_hell.pdf
     
    Last edited: Jun 29, 2017
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  2. Dartman

    Dartman Well-Known Member

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    This is a very telling admission. Your attempts to support universalism are not based on Scripture. Your "support" is limited to emotional speculation.
     
  3. Hillsage

    Hillsage One for Him and Him for all Supporter

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    The word is only in two verses in the bible. You want it to say unsaved sinners, in what you quoted in Hebrews. I proved Hebrews isn't talking about unsaved sinners and neither is the only other verse it's used in, which is what this UNIVERSALISM thread is all about. Your spin does nothing, to help what you are trying to prove. IOW the dart man missed the target completely.
     
  4. ClementofA

    ClementofA Well-Known Member Supporter

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    I don't see how you got that idea from my post.

    As anyone can see from my posts, including those to you, they are full of Scriptures.
     
  5. mkgal1

    mkgal1 His perfect way sets me free. 2 Samuel 22:33 Supporter

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    Well.....we aren't God, so.....

    Embrace the mystery, 2PhiloVoid. Spirituality isn't a recipe to follow.
     
  6. ClementofA

    ClementofA Well-Known Member Supporter

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    It's not obvious to those who believe in the Rapture theory. Or those who will be alive & have never died when the Lord returns.

    Compare Ezek 18:26 to:

    Proverbs 3:1,2: "My son, forget not my law; but let your heart keep my commands, for length of days and long life, and peace, shall they add to you."

    Ezek. 18:26 When a righteous man turns away from his righteousness, and commits iniquity, and dies in them; for his iniquity that he has done shall he die.

    Proverbs 4:10: "My son, receive My sayings; and the years of your life shall be many."
    Proverbs 10:27: "The fear of the LORD prolongs days: but the years of the wicked shall be shortened."
    1Kings 3:14: "If you walk in My ways, and keep My commandments ... then I will lengthen your days.
    Exodus 20:12: “Honour your father and your mother, that your days may be long upon the land which the LORD your God is giving you.”
    Deuteronomy 5:16: “Honour your father and your mother, as the LORD your God has commanded you, that your days may be long, and that it may be well with you in the land which the LORD your God is giving you.”
    Psalm 34:12,13: “Who is the man who desires life, and loves many days, that he may see good? Keep your tongue from evil, and your lips from speaking deceit.”
    Psalm 91:16 With long life will I satisfy him, and shew him my salvation.
    Eph.6:2 Honour thy father and mother; (which is the first commandment with promise 3 That it may be well with thee, and thou mayest live long on the earth.
    Exodus 23:25,26 You shall serve the Lord your God, and He will BLESS your bread and water; and I will take sickness away from the midst of you, and the (full) number of your days I will fulfil."


    The actual thought is that the first half of the verse is explained by the second half. The second half tells us why the unrighteous died.

    The passage makes no mention of second death nor does it even hint of it in any way.

    Even if it did, it still wouldn't tell us the destiny of those who died a second time. 1 Corinthians 15:22-28 reveals they will be saved.

    So, overall, chalk it up to yet another weak, failure of an, argument for Annihilationism.
    On a number of levels.

    https://www.tentmaker.org/books/hope_beyond_hell.pdf
     
  7. Dartman

    Dartman Well-Known Member

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    None of which actually state your theories. ALL require the same kind of emotional speculation, to sort of suggest your theory ..... if the rest of Scripture is ignored.
     
  8. Dartman

    Dartman Well-Known Member

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    Your sad attempt to distort this text demonstrates your intent to subject God's words to your theory, rather than form your thinking based on God's words.

    Heb 10:22-31 Let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience, and our bodies washed with pure water.
    23 Let us hold fast the profession of our faith without wavering; (for he is faithful that promised;)
    24 And let us consider one another to provoke unto love and to good works:
    25 Not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as the manner of some is; but exhorting one another: and so much the more, as ye see the day approaching.
    26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,
    27 But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.
    28 He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:
    29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?
    30 For we know him that hath said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people.
    31 It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.


    Contrary to your post, the context is about PEOPLE .. NOT the law!!!
    It is the PEOPLE who wilfully sin, that are "the adversaries"!
     
    Last edited: Jun 30, 2017
  9. Dartman

    Dartman Well-Known Member

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    Those are the exception to the rule, and your attempt to confuse the issue with this kind of distraction is transparent, and utterly not persuasive.
    It is true that wisdom from God will aid you in this life ... and, all things being normal, would add years in comparison to the utterly foolish. But that isn't what is being discussed in Eze 18.
    It is the person who dies IN their sins, that will die FOR their sins, in the lake of fire.
    1 Cor 6:9-11 Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind, 10 Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God. 11 And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God.
    Rev 20:15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.
    Rev 21:8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.
     
  10. ClementofA

    ClementofA Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Second death, not endless annihilation.

    The first death was not the end. People were resurrected.

    The second death is not the end. People will be raised out of it. 1 Cor.15:22-28.

    Behold, I am making ALL new (Rev.21:5a). End of story.

    Simply believe.



    https://www.tentmaker.org/books/hope_beyond_hell.pdf
     
  11. ClementofA

    ClementofA Well-Known Member Supporter

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    For as long as they remain un-repentant "evil doers; adulterers, fornicators, etc ", they cannot, and will not enter the kingdom of God. Such were some of you.

    Eventually all will be saved:

    Mt.1:21 And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name Jesus: for he shall save his people from their sins.
    Mt.2:6b ...my people Israel.

    1 Corinthians 3:13 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's
    work of what sort it is.
    14 If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.
    15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.

    Romans 11:26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:
    27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.
    32 For God has imprisoned all in disobedience, so that He may have mercy on all.


    1 Corinthians 15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive... 28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.
     
  12. Dartman

    Dartman Well-Known Member

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    Your statement contradicts Scripture. Death IS returning to dust. YOU. Not just a piece of you.
    Gen 2:7 And Jehovah God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

    God formed/made man of the dust of the ground, God gave that man breath. What God gave is the breath/spirit. The ONLY thing that returns to God AT death is; that breath/spirit He gave.

    Gen 3:19 By the sweat of your face You will eat bread, Till you return to the ground, Because from it you were taken; For you are dust, And to dust you shall return."

    Ps 146:4 His breath goeth forth, he returneth to his earth; in that very day his thoughts perish.

    Eccl 3:18-21 I said in mine heart concerning the estate of the sons of men, that God might manifest them, and that they might see that they themselves are beasts. 19 For that which befalleth the sons of men befalleth beasts; even one thing befalleth them: as the one dieth, so dieth the other; yea, they have all one breath; so that a man hath no preeminence above a beast: for all is vanity. 20 All go unto one place; all are of the dust, and all turn to dust again.

    Here Solomon records the truth of man's nature. Just like any other animal, they return to the dust when dead.
    THEN, Solomon points out the folly of the religions that surrounded Israel, the Greek, Egyptian and Babylonian notions of death;

    21 Who knoweth the spirit of man that goeth upward, and the spirit of the beast that goeth downward to the earth?


    Only Jesus has been resurrected to immortality, so far.
    1 Cor 15:20-23 But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept.
    21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead. 22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. 23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.

    This is the first resurrection, which is detailed later in the chapter, and in 1 Thess 4:13-18, and in Rev 20. The REST of the dead "lived not again" until the 1,000 years are finished. It is AFTER the 2nd resurrection, at the Judgment, that death is finally brought to an end, no one will ever die again. THEN COMETH THE END:
    1 Cor 15:24-28 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power. 25 For he must reign, till He hath put all enemies under his feet. 26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.27 For He hath put all things under his feet. But when He saith, all things are put under him, it is manifest that He is excepted, which did put all things under him. 28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto Him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.

    Once Jehovah/YHVH God has put all things under Christ's feet, THEN Jesus is also subject to Jehovah/YHVH God, so that Jehovah/YHVH God is "all in all". EVERY living being still alive on the planet, including Jesus, is with God, in God, and subject to God, so, God is "all in all".

    Your theory contradicts the Scriptures.
    There is NOTHING about resurrection out of 2nd death, in the text you site, or any other.

    Everything left after the lake of fire.
    Rev 21:8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

    End of story.

    Simply believe.
     
  13. RayJeena

    RayJeena Before I was born, he knew me. Supporter

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    Besides, it's rather difficult to remain in a state that ultimately gets destroyed. :D
     
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  14. Dartman

    Dartman Well-Known Member

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    Only those that believe, repent, and obey, in this life.
    There is no "second chance" after death. Ever. For anyone, or anything. Jesus said there are two options in resurrection;
    John 5:28-29 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, 29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.
    The angel told Daniel there are 2 options in resurrection;
    Dan 12:2-3 Multitudes who sleep in the dust of the earth will awake: some to everlasting life, others to shame and everlasting contempt.

    Yes, I am aware of the sad spin attempts, with which the universalist's try to wriggle out of these statements, but they are transparent denials of what is written here, and all through the Scriptures.

    These passages refer to the process foretold in the Old Testament, which will happen AFTER Jesus returns;
    Ezek 20:33-38 As I live, saith the Lord Jehovah, surely with a mighty hand, and with an outstretched arm, and with wrath poured out, will I be king over you: 34 and I will bring you out from the peoples, and will gather you out of the countries wherein ye are scattered, with a mighty hand, and with an outstretched arm, and with wrath poured out; 35 and I will bring you into the wilderness of the peoples, and there will I enter into judgment with you face to face. 36 Like as I entered into judgment with your fathers in the wilderness of the land of Egypt, so will I enter into judgment with you, saith the Lord Jehovah. 37 And I will cause you to pass under the rod, and I will bring you into the bond of the covenant; 38 and I will purge out from among you the rebels, and them that transgress against me; I will bring them forth out of the land where they sojourn, but they shall not enter into the land of Israel: and ye shall know that I am Jehovah.
    Zech 13:8-9 And it shall come to pass, that in all the land, saith Jehovah, two parts therein shall be cut off and die; but the third shall be left therein. 9 And I will bring the third part into the fire, and will refine them as silver is refined, and will try them as gold is tried. They shall call on my name, and I will hear them: I will say, It is my people; and they shall say, Jehovah is my God.

    As already proven, the first 12 verses of this chapter prove the "works" burned up are the failed converts that the teacher built... they are destroyed, but the preacher will still be saved ... IF, that teacher doesn't become a "castaway" (1 Cor 9:27).

    Exactly like Jesus stated; "they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation."

    Yes, Jesus will be subject to his God.
     
  15. Dartman

    Dartman Well-Known Member

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    It isn't the state that's destroyed, it's the process. There isn't a single text that discusses the destruction of "dead".
     
  16. Hillsage

    Hillsage One for Him and Him for all Supporter

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    COL 2:14 Blotting out the handwriting of (God's) ordinances that was against us, which was contrary/hupenantios to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;

    You honestly want everyone here to think that the word hupenantios above means God saved us from 'people against us' and not 'the ordinances of God' in the context of this verse? :doh: And you accuse me of 'theory'???? No, it's bible, pure and simple word definition then consistency of application in the only 2 verses the word is used in. And my application simply disproves 'your theory'. Not once have you quoted or dealt with hupenantios in Col 2:14. Like I said earlier, pretty hard to nail down snot on the fence post of some people's theology.

    5227 hupenantios; under (convertly) contrary to, i.e. opposed or (as noun) an opponent

    So, with your understanding you see a fearful looking for judgment' and 'firey indignation' for your 'deliberate sins' which are committed "after receiving knowledge of the truth," in the verse above. And then you believe those "firey judgments" are people? :doh: OK, 'Houston, we have a problem'....it's YOUR theory.

    Not much sense in responding to me IMO. :wave:
     
  17. Hillsage

    Hillsage One for Him and Him for all Supporter

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    No destruction of "dead"?

    MAT 22:29 Jesus replied, "You are in error because you do not know the Scriptures or the power of God.

    JOH 12:24 I tell you the truth, unless a kernel of wheat falls to the ground and dies, it remains only a single seed. But if it dies, it produces many seeds.

     
  18. mkgal1

    mkgal1 His perfect way sets me free. 2 Samuel 22:33 Supporter

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    Seems to me there's been a LOT of "thinking based on God's words" on Hillsage's formation of his theology.
     
  19. mkgal1

    mkgal1 His perfect way sets me free. 2 Samuel 22:33 Supporter

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    Isn't He (and His life) to point us towards truth? Didn't He "join with humanity" in His incarnation? Isn't much of that point to "walk in newness of life" as Romans 6:4 says:

    We therefore were buried with Him through baptism into death, in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, we too may walk in newness of life.

     
  20. Dartman

    Dartman Well-Known Member

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    I HONESTLY WANT everyone here to be reminded of the importance of CONTEXT!!! Your attempt to DISTORT the context in Hebrews is a blatant "wresting" of the text!

    The two contexts are using the same word, but very different "adversaries" are being discussed. Hebrews is discussing PEOPLE that are opposed to God, they are His "opponents"!
    In Col 2, the context is the Mosaic Law, which was nailed to Jesus cross, and which is "contrary" to us!!
    BOTH of these examples are consistent with the definition;

    5227 hupenantios; under (convertly) contrary to, i.e. opposed or (as noun) an opponent

    I color coded the examples, so it's blatantly obvious.
     
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