Universalism...why not?

[Dartman]

"AS in Adam ALL die
SO ALSO in Christ shall ALL be made alive.
BUT each in his own order:

1. Christ the Firstfruit;

2. Then they that are Christ's, at His coming;

3. Then cometh the end [order], WHEN He shall deliver
up the kingdom to God, even the Father; WHEN He shall
have abolished ALL rule and ALL authority and power.
For He must reign. TILL He hath put all His enemies
under His feet. THE LAST ENEMY THAT SHALL BE ABOLISHED
IS DEATH. (1 Cor. 15:22-26, R.V.)."

It is absolutely correct that EVERY human being that has EVER lived will either be changed at Christ's coming (1 Cor 15:51-54), or will be in one of the 2 resurrections. It is also absolutely true that 1 Cor 15:24-28 is at the END of death, and follows the last/2nd resurrection. No one will die after that point.

On the OTHER HAND, the people that are dead at this point have ZERO hope. They are gone/dead forever. They have been destroyed, they are ashes, they "be not", they "cannot be found".

 

[ClementofA]

Quoting only "versions" which support one's assumptions only proves the bias of the one quoting..

JPS Daniel 12:2
(2) And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to reproaches and everlasting abhorrence.[JPS=Jewish Publication Society]
LXX-E Dan 12:2
(2) And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting [αἰώνιος/aionios] life, and some to reproach and everlasting [αἰώνιος/aionios] shame.​

If you want to prove these two Jewish sources wrong you have a lot of work. The only sources which can prove these wrong are Jewish sources. Good luck.
JPS Exod 15:18 The LORD shall reign for ever and ever
LXX Exod 15:18 The Lord reigns for ever [αἰώνιος/aionios] and ever [ἔτ'/et] and ever [ἔτι/eti] .

It seems you failed to notice the Jewish sources i quoted. From the inspired Hebrew Scriptures, not a modern English translation (JPS) such as you quoted.

Even your own source above with Exo 15:18 proves aionios is used of finite duration. Now apply that knowledge to aionios in Daniel 12:2 & the punishment there is not everlasting but temporary.

https://www.tentmaker.org/books/hope_beyond_hell.pdf

 

[Dartman]

There is no John 5:58.

LOL ... you are correct, that was a typo. since I ended the reference with "30" I think you can guess which verse number I meant to type.

Most versions translate the word "damnation" as "judgement"

John 5:29 and come out--those who have done what is good will rise to live, and those who have done what is evil will rise to be condemned.

The result of their judgment/damnation is "everlasting shame and contempt". Your theory that they recover themselves contradicts Scripture. You keep attempting to take each reference, and water it down, twist it, massage it .... and you are NOT considering the entire context of Scripture.... because it destroys your theory.

 

[Basil the Great]

Too many people are so very certain of such monumental topics as salvation and the eternal destiny of every human soul. The bottom line when all is said and done is that only God knows the ultimate answer to these topics.

 

[ClementofA]

The result of their judgment/damnation is "everlasting shame and contempt". Your theory that they recover themselves contradicts Scripture. You keep attempting to take each reference, and water it down, twist it, massage it .... and you are NOT considering the entire context of Scripture.... because it destroys your theory.

You still haven't dealt with my posts on Daniel 12:2-3, 1 Cor.15:22-28, 2 Pet.2:9. You answered but didn't deal with the points in them. Your answers sidestepped the issues.

As to your comment above, how would those annihilated into endless nonexistence experience "everlasting shame"?

 

[ClementofA]

Too many people are so very certain of such monumental topics as salvation and the eternal destiny of every human soul. The bottom line when all is said and done is that only God knows the ultimate answer to these topics.

Do you have any authority such as Scripture to back this up?

Atheists say much the same about the existence of God.

Others say much the same about knowing which faith has the truth about the true way to God.

 

[Dartman]

I can't believe I'm actually quoting from Desiring God's website...but this is why I used that phrase:

>>>>The hypostatic union is the joining (mysterious though it be) of the divine and the human in the one person of Jesus.~What Is the Hypostatic Union? | Desiring God

It's a common phrase (well.....common to me, anyway).
​

He has demonstrated His love for us in that while we were still sinners, He took our nature to His one person and died for us (Romans 5:8).​

So, regarding my question, you really don't have any Scripture that states "joined with humanity". What the Scripture actually STATES is; Jesus said he worships the God of the Jews (John 4:22) Jesus said his father is his God (John 20:17, Rev 3:12) Jehovah/YHVH God says Jesus is His servant, His anointed Isa 42:1-8, Acts 4:27,30​

 

[Dartman]

You still haven't dealt with my posts on Daniel 12:2-3, 1 Cor.15:22-28, 2 Pet.2:9. You answered but didn't deal with the points in them. Your answers sidestepped the issues.

Hogwash. I dealt with each of your attempts to divert attention from what the verses actually state, to a completely irrelevant point. It is you that hasn't dealt with the actual statements made. For instance, Dan 12:2 clearly stated the dead are sleeping in the dust, and that there are 2 RESULTS; life, and shame. Your theory doesn't result in "shame" for anyone!!

As to your comment above, how would those annihilated into endless nonexistence experience "everlasting shame"?

The text doesn't claim they EXPERIENCE "everlasting shame and contempt", that is the RESULT. It is the eternal result of their sin, their rebellion, even though the sinner is destroyed, is "no more", their actions result in shame and contempt FOR THEM.

 

[Dartman]

There is no John 5:58.

LOL ... correct, that was a typo. I meant 28, I think you knew that though.

Most versions translate the word "damnation" as "judgement"

John 5:29 and come out--those who have done what is good will rise to live, and those who have done what is evil will rise to be condemned.

Comparing all the scriptures that discuss the end of the wicked, the translations that use "damnation" are more precise. Both are correct.

Judgement is a good thing:

Never for the evil!!

it is the Righteous that crave, and pray for, judgment!!

 

[Dartman]

So....in other words, you DO NOT believe Jesus is God incarnate (you seem to be avoiding that direct question).​

I find it very telling that you can tell my position from me quoting verses. THAT is a very good indication that my position lines up with Scripture.... at least .... with THOSE Scriptures.

I put that in quotes as a paraphrase of these verses (typically believed by Nicene/Trinitarian believers...which is what I am):

I see, I am an apostolic preaching believer, if I am FORCED to pick a creed, it would be the so called "Apostles Creed" from around 150AD.

So, lets look at the verses you have provided, to see if there really IS any Scriptural support for Nicene/Trinitarian theories;

The Word became flesh and made His dwelling among us. ~John 1:4

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.~John 1:1
​

The translation you quote artificially capitalizes logos, in an attempt to convey a different meaning for the word in the 1st chapter, compared to the rest of John's gospel, and the rest of the New Testament. Logos doesn't mean "Jesus", it means; "the expression of thought" — not the mere name of an object — (a) as embodying a conception or idea (from Vine's Expository Dictionary of Biblical Words)
This definition makes PERFECT sense in the context. Consequently, these verses do NOT state your theory.

"Behold, the virgin will hold in womb, and will bring forth a son, and they will call His name Immanuel" which is, being translated, "God with us."~Matthew 1:23

And, Jesus being born proves that God is NOT against us, He is with us.
We KNOW God was in heaven when Jesus was born, and is still in heaven today.
The THEORY that somehow God was in heaven, as Jesus said repeatedly, and also was on earth obeying himself, and praying to himself, is nonsense inspired by mixing pagan notions with a few verses that have been taken out of context.

My wife is wanting for us to do some camping this weekend, so I will have to address the rest of your verses later.... sorry.​

 

[ClementofA]

The text doesn't claim they EXPERIENCE "everlasting shame and contempt", that is the RESULT. It is the eternal result of their sin, their rebellion, even though the sinner is destroyed, is "no more", their actions result in shame and contempt FOR THEM.

How do those who do not exist have "everlasting shame"?

 

[ClementofA]

Your theory doesn't result in "shame" for anyone!!

Whatever gave you that idea?

 

[Der Alte]

It seems you failed to notice the Jewish sources i quoted. From the inspired Hebrew Scriptures, not a modern English translation (JPS) such as you quoted.

No you did not quote from the "inspired Hebrew scriptures!" You quoted a modern translation by a single individual who did not explain in any way why he chose the meaning he did. This is called cherry picking sources. Looking for anything from anywhere by anybody that supports your assumptions/presuppositions. Many modern Jews do not believe in hell but I have proved from the Jewish Encyclopedia and the Talmud which cites historical evidence that Jews before and during the time of Jesus did believe in hell. What a Jew living in the 21st century believes may or may not be what ancient Jews believed.

Even your own source above with Exo 15:18 proves aionios is used of finite duration. Now apply that knowledge to aionios in Daniel 12:2 & the punishment there is not everlasting but temporary.

That ain't the way it is done. We know from our own experience that mountains are not eternal but we do not have that knowledge about anything which is beyond our own experience.

 

[ClementofA]

No you did not quote from the "inspired Hebrew scriptures!"

I did. I also linked to a Hebrew interlinear.

Also your claim that aionios appears in Exo 15:18 LXX is wrong. It isn't there.

That ain't the way it is done. We know from our own experience that mountains are not eternal but we do not have that knowledge about anything which is beyond our own experience.

Your quote was of Exo 15:18. There are no "mountains" mentioned there. As i said:

Even your own source above with Exo 15:18 proves aionios is used of finite duration. Now apply that knowledge to aionios in Daniel 12:2 & the punishment there is not everlasting but temporary.

https://www.tentmaker.org/books/hope_beyond_hell.pdf

 

[Der Alte]

I did. I also linked to a Hebrew interlinear.

You did not quote it as you claimed!

Also your claim that aionios appears in Exo 15:18 LXX is wrong. It isn't there.
Your quote was of Exo 15:18. There are no "mountains" mentioned there. As i said:

Where which post?

Even your own source above with Exo 15:18 proves aionios is used of finite duration. Now apply that knowledge to aionios in Dan 12:2 & the punishment there is not everlasting but temporary.

That ain't the way it is done amigo!~ Your examples are irrelevant. That is the "Same meaning" lexical fallacy. Insisting that a word must have the same meaning in all its usages. When Jesus called Peter a rock and Satan he was not actually either one. There are actual rocks and a Satan. That Jesus called Peter those things does not mean every rock or Satan is Peter. There were actual foxes but Herod was not one when Jesus called him that. Thunder exists but James and John were not actual sons of thunder when Jesus called them that. Hyperbole! Hyperbole! Hyperbole!
.....If the 1917 JPS translates "Olam" as "eternal" then it will take more than saying "I'm right and you're wrong! Am too! Nuh huh! I have two electronic and 2 print editions of Brown,Driver, Briggs Hebrew lexicon.

עוֹלָם S5769, 5865 TWOT1631a GK6409, 6518439 n.m. long duration, antiquity, futurity;—ע׳ Gn 9:12 + 405 times; עֹלָם 3:22 + 19 times; עֵילוֹם 2 Ch 33:7, read prob. עוֹלָם (for other explan. v. note in KitHpt); sf. עֹלָמוֹ Ec 12:5; pl. עוֹלָמִים Is 26:4 + 7 times, עֹלָמִים ψ 145:13 + 2 times; cstr. עוֹלְמֵי Is 45:17;—† 1. of past time: a. ancient time: יְמֵי ע׳ days of old Is 63:9, 11 Am 9:11 Mi 5:1; 7:14 Mal 3:4; יְמוֹת ע׳ Dt 32:7; עַם ע׳ Is 44:7 ancient people; גּוֹי מֵע׳ Je 5:15; חָרְבוֹת ע׳ old waste places Is 58:12 61:4, cf. Ez 26:20 b; פִּתְחֵי ע׳ ancient gates ψ 24:7, 9; ארח ע׳ Jb 22:15; נתבות ע׳ Je 6:16; שְׁבִילֵי ע׳ 18:15; גבול ע׳ Pr 22:28; 23:10; במות ע׳ Ez 36:2; מִן (םֵ)ע׳ from of old Is 64:3 Je 2:20 Jo 2:2, of the fathers Jos 24:2, the prophets Je 28:8, the ancient נפלים Gn 6:4; (Ez 32:27 G Co for מערלים; but 1 S 27:8 read מִטֵּלָם for מעולם We Dr HPS); בהם ע׳ long in them Is 64:4 (text dub.). b. מֵתֵי ע׳ the long dead ψ 143:3 La 3:6; so עַם ע׳ Ez 26:20. c. of God, מֵע׳: former acts Is 46:9; as redeemer Is 63:16; of love ψ 25:6, judgment 119:52, dominion Is 63:19; long silence 42:14; 57:11 G B Michaelis conj. מַעְלִם for מֵעוֹלָם; cf. I. [עָלַם] Hiph. ψ 10:1; his wisdom personif. Pr 8:23; his existence ψ 93:2. d. of things: גבעות ע׳ ancient hills Gn 49:26 (J), Hb 3:6 (|| הררי־עד), Dt 33:15 (|| הררי קדם). e. pl. שְׁנוֹת עולמים ψ 77:6 years of ancient times; דורות עולמים Is 51:9; לעלמים Ec 1:10 in olden times. 2. a. indef. futuring, c. prep. for ever, always (sometimes = during the lifetime); עֶבֶד עולם slave for ever Dt 15:17 1 S 27:12 Jb 40:28; עָבַד לע׳ serve for ever Ex 21:6 (E), Lv 25:46; עד ע׳ 1 S 1:22; גְּאֻלַּת ע׳ Lv 25:32 redemption at any time; הֲרַת ע׳ Je 20:17 ever pregnant (womb); כְּלִמַּת ע׳ v 11 of persecutors of Jeremiah; חרפת ע׳ 23:40; שַׁלְוֵי ע׳ ψ 73:12 alway at ease; יְחִי לע׳ (יחיה) may the king live alway 1 K 1:31 Ne 2:3; cf. אֹרֶךְ יָמִים עולם ועד ψ 21:5; ישׁב עולם לפני אלהים 61:8; so of the pious, לע׳ לא ימוט 15:5; בל ימוט Pr 10:30, cf. ψ 30:7; other phr.: ψ 37:27, 28 41:13; 55:23; 61:8; 73:26; 121:8 Pr 10:25; ע׳ אשׁירה ψ 89:2 I will sing for ever (as long as I live), cf. 52:10; 115:18; 145:1, 2; הוֹדה לע׳ 30:13; 44:9; 52:11; 79:13; other emotions and activities continuous through life 5:12; 31:2 = 71:1, 75:10; 86:12; 119:44, 93, 98, 111, 112 Mi 4:5, cf. לע׳ 2:9. b. = continuous existence, (1) of things: the earth, הָאָרֶץ לְעוֹלָם עֹמֶדֶת Ec 1:4; other phr.: ψ 78:69; 104:5, heavens and contents 148:6, ruined cities Is 25:2; 32:14 Ez 26:21; 27:36; 28:19, ruined lands Je 18:16; 25:9, 12; 49:13, 33; 51:26, 62 Ez 35:9 Zp 2:9; לעד עד ע׳ Is 30:8 for a witness for ever, in a book; (2) of nations: לעולם אהיה 47:7 (Babylon loqu.), cf. ψ 81:16 Ob 10; ישׁב לע׳ of Judah Jo 4:20; (3) families ψ 49:12 Is 14:20; the dynasty of Saul 1 S 13:13; house of Eli 2:30; (4) national relations: איבת ע׳ continual enmity Ez 25:15; 35:5; of exclusion from קהל י׳, עד ע׳ Dt 23:4 = Ne 13:1; various relations Is 32:17; 34:10; חרפת ע׳ perpetual reproach ψ 78:66, of dynasty of David 2 S 3:28; 12:10 1 K 2:33, families v 33 2 K 5:27 ψ 106:31 Je 35:6. c. of divine existence: אל עולם Gn 21:33 (J); אלהי ע׳ Is 40:28; חי אנכי לע׳ Dt 32:40; חֵי הע׳ Dn 12:7; of divine name, זה שׁמי לְע׳ Ex 3:15 (E), cf. 2 Ch 33:7 (v. supr.); blessing and praise of it 2 S 7:26 = 1 Ch 17:24, ψ 72:19; 135:13; of י׳ himself89:53; attributes, אהבה Je 31:3 1 K 10:9; חסד Is 54:8 ψ 89:2; 138:8; לע׳ חַסְדּוֹ 1 Ch 16:34, 41 2 Ch 5:13; 7:3, 6; 20:21 Ezr 3:11 ψ 100:5; 106:1; 107:1; 118:1, 2, 3, 4, 29; 136:1 + 25 times, Je 33:11; כבוד ψ 104:31; אמת 117:2; 146:6; צדק 119:142; עצה 33:11; reign Ex 15:18 (E), ψ 10:16; 66:7; 92:9; 146:10 Je 10:10 Mi 4:7; יהוה לע׳ ישׁב ψ 9:8; 29:10; 102:13 La 5:19; presence in Zion 1 Ch 23:25 Is 33:14; 60:19, 20 Ez 37:28; 43:7, 9; his salvation Is 51:6, 8; זרעת ע׳ Dt 33:27 everlasting arms; כל אשׁר יעשׂה האלהים יהיה לע׳ Ec 3:14. d. of God’s covenant: בְּרִית ע׳ everlasting covenant Gn 9:16; 17:7, 13, 19 Ex 31:16 Lv 24:8 Nu 18:19 (all P), 2 S 23:5 1 Ch 16:17 = ψ 105:10, Is 24:5; 55:3; 61:8 Je 32:40; 50:5 Ez 16:60; 37:26; covenant with Noah, לְדֹרֹת ע׳ Gn 9:12 (P); God remembers it 1 Ch 16:15 = ψ 105:8, ψ 111:5; will not break it, לע׳ Ju 2:1; אוֹת ע׳ Ex 31:17 (P); אוֹת עד ע׳ Dt 28:46. e. of God’s laws: דבר(ים) Is 59:21 ψ 119:89; משׁפט 119:160; עדות v 144, 152; חק ע׳ Ex 29:28; 30:21 (E), Lv 6:11, 15; 7:34; 10:15; 24:9 Nu 18:8, 11, 19 (P), also Je 5:22 (of bounds of sea); חק עד ע׳ Ex 12:24 (J), חֻקַּת ע׳ v 14, 17; 27:21; 28:43; 29:9 Lv 3:17; 7:36; 10:9; 16:29, 31, 34; 17:7; 23:14, 21, 31, 41; 24:3, 8 Nu 10:8; 15:15; 18:23; 19:10, 21 (P) (most of these in fact specif. Jewish and temporary); temple to bear God’s name, עד ע׳ 1 K 9:3 = 2 Ch 7:16; לע׳ 2 K 21:7 2 Ch 33:4; consecrated לע׳ 30:8; its ceremonies לע׳ 2:3; Levit. priesthood, לשׁרתו עד ע׳ 1 Ch 15:2; Aaronic priesthood, לברך בשׁמי עד ע׳ 23:13(×2). f. of God’s promises: his word, יקום לע׳ Is 40:8; promised dynasty of David, עד (ה)ע׳ 2 S 7:13, 16(×2), 25 = 1 Ch 17:12, 14(×2), 23 ψ 18:51 = 2 S 22:51, 1 K 2:33, 45 1 Ch 22:10 ψ 89:5; לע׳ 1 K 9:5 1 Ch 28:4, 7 2 Ch 13:5 ψ 89:29, 37 2 S 7:29(×2) = 1 Ch 17:27(×2); of holy land 1 Ch 28:8, אֲחֻזַּת ע׳ Gn 17:8; 48:4 Lv 25:34 (P); given לע׳ Ex 32:13 (J) 2 Ch 20:7; עד ע׳ Gn 13:15, inherited לע׳ Is 60:21 ψ 37:18; עד ע׳ Is 34:17; dwelt in עד ע׳ Ez 37:25; other blessings, לע׳ Dt 5:29 Ho 2:21; עד ע׳ Dt 12:28 2 S 7:24 = 1 Ch 17:22, ψ 133:3; שִׂמְחַת ע׳ Is 35:10; 51:11; 61:7; דֶּרֶךְ ע׳ ψ 139:24; שׁם ע׳ Is 56:5; 63:12; אות ע׳ 55:13; גאון ע׳ 60:15; Jerus. to abide לע׳ Je 17:25 ψ 125:1, cf. Je 31:40; עד ע׳ ψ 48:9. g. of relations between God and his people, לע׳ 1 Ch 29:18 ψ 45:18; 85:6; 103:9; 145:21 Is 57:16 Je 3:5, 12 La 3:31 Jo 2:26, 27; עד (ה)ע׳ ψ 28:9 Mal 1:4. h. of Messianic dynasty and king: (ל)ע׳ ψ 110:4; having divine throne 45:7; name endures 72:17; established 89:38; God blesses him 45:3; of his reign, מעתה ועד ע׳ Is 9:6. i. = indefinite, unending future: live לע׳ Gn 3:22 Jb 7:16; הנביאים הלע׳ יִחְיוּ Zc 1:5 the prophets, can they live for ever? cf. חדל לע׳ ψ 49:9; c. neg. never Ezr 9:12 Pr 27:24. j. after death: שׁנת ע׳ Je 51:39, 57; בית ע׳ Ec 12:5; חַיֵּי ע׳ Dn 12:2; דראון ע׳ v 2; also v 3 Jon 2:7 Ec 2:16; 9:6. k. = age (duration) of the world: את העלם נתן בְּלִבָּם Ec 3:11 the age of the world he hath set, etc. (cf. especially NH; others i). 1. pl. intens. everlastingness, eternity: תשׁועת עולמים Is 45:17; צדק עלמים Dn 9:24; צור עולמים Is 26:4 (RVm rock of ages); מלכוּת כל עלמים ψ 145:13; also 61:5; 77:8 1 K 8:13 = 2 Ch 6:2. m. special phr.: ם(ה)עולם (ו)עד (ה)עולם (מן) from everlasting to everlasting, of י׳ ψ 90:2, חסד י׳ 103:17; benedictions 1 Ch 16:36 = ψ 106:48, Ne 9:5 1 Ch 29:10 ψ 41:14; the land given למן עולם ועד עולם Je 7:7; 25:5; מעתה ועד עולם from now and for ever ψ 115:18; 121:8 (i.e. as long as one lives); of people’s hope in God 131:3; dynasty of David Is 9:6; of God’s acts, words, etc. Mi 4:7 Is 59:21 ψ 125:2, cf. 113:2;—v. further i. עַד p. 723.

Brown, Francis; Driver, Samuel Rolles ; Briggs, Charles Augustus: [BDB] Enhanced Brown-Driver-Briggs Hebrew and English Lexicon. electronic ed. Oak Harbor, WA : Logos Research Systems, 2000, S. 761​

 

[Hillsage]

I HONESTLY WANT everyone here to be reminded of the importance of CONTEXT!!! Your attempt to DISTORT the context in Hebrews is a blatant "wresting" of the text!

The two contexts are using the same word, but very different "adversaries" are being discussed. Hebrews is discussing PEOPLE that are opposed to God, they are His "opponents"!
In Col 2, the context is the Mosaic Law, which was nailed to Jesus cross, and which is "contrary" to us!!
BOTH of these examples are consistent with the definition;

5227 hupenantios; under (convertly) contrary to, i.e. opposed or (as noun) an opponent

I color coded the examples, so it's blatantly obvious.

I've looked at this verse again trying to figure out what I believe was an inspired 'revealatory moment' for me. One of those 'flashes of light' in the darkness where one sees everything like a flashbulb going off in the darkness. But then your recollection of what you saw, is not as clear after as it would have been if you had the 'picture' from that flash. So, Dartman, I do see why you see PEOPLE as the enemies of God. And I do apologize for my 'too strong' attitude as to why you didn't see what I saw. But I still don't agree with you. I see the ACTIONS committed by PEOPLE as the enemy of God in that context. And in this Hebrews verse those PEOPLE will undergo the judgment of God to deal with those 'sins for which there doth no more remain a sacrifice'. IOW, those bad actions/wood/hay/stubble actions contrary/hupenantios to the LAW/"written ordinances of God". But those ACTIONS are not PEOPLE, as you believe 1Cor 3 speaks of and which Clement tried to reveal to you. And these PEOPLE will undergo the firey purgative judgments of God, not to devour them, but to devour that which opposes God. Again, this Hebrews text is written to CHRISTIANS.

HEB 10:26 For we - wilfully sinning after the receiving the full knowledge of the truth - no more for sins doth there remain a sacrifice, 27 but a certain fearful looking for of judgment, and fiery zeal, about to devour the opposers;

So while you believe the opposition to God is the PEOPLE of God who commit a sin contrary to the law of God and are therefore losing their salvation and going to eternal Hell, we don't. We see God in the salvation business of forgiving His enemies just like Jesus did at the cross even as they were murdering Him.

Again I apologize for being too strong and in your face with that which you believe you see correctly. All the kids/grand kids and other family in town, and time here will be limited.

 

[mkgal1]

I notice that in Hebrews 10:26 that "certain fearful" are merely *looking for* judgement. It says nothing about them getting it (or even having it coming to them).

As long as we think Jesus died for God instead of dying for us, we will never see the sinfulness of human civilization and the beauty of the divine alternative: the kingdom of God.

The justice of God is not retributive justice. In the end retributive justice changes nothing. The justice of God is entirely restorative. The only thing God will call justice is setting the world right, not punishing the innocent. (Our sense of retributive justice is derived from the fact that we are more punished by our sins than for our sins.)--https://brianzahnd.com/2015/04/jesus-died-us-god/

 

[Dartman]

Whatever gave you that idea?

If everyone repents, the shame can't be everlasting.

 

[Dartman]

I've looked at this verse again trying to figure out what I believe was an inspired 'revealatory moment' for me. One of those 'flashes of light' in the darkness where one sees everything like a flashbulb going off in the darkness. But then your recollection of what you saw, is not as clear after as it would have been if you had the 'picture' from that flash. So, Dartman, I do see why you see PEOPLE as the enemies of God. And I do apologize for my 'too strong' attitude as to why you didn't see what I saw. But I still don't agree with you. I see the ACTIONS committed by PEOPLE as the enemy of God in that context. And in this Hebrews verse those PEOPLE will undergo the judgment of God to deal with those 'sins for which there doth no more remain a sacrifice'. IOW, those bad actions/wood/hay/stubble actions contrary/hupenantios to the LAW/"written ordinances of God". But those ACTIONS are not PEOPLE, as you believe 1Cor 3 speaks of and which Clement tried to reveal to you. And these PEOPLE will undergo the firey purgative judgments of God, not to devour them, but to devour that which opposes God. Again, this Hebrews text is written to CHRISTIANS.

HEB 10:26 For we - wilfully sinning after the receiving the full knowledge of the truth - no more for sins doth there remain a sacrifice, 27 but a certain fearful looking for of judgment, and fiery zeal, about to devour the opposers;

Your own quote proves your error.
The "opposers" are "devoured".
When you couple this statement, with the MANY other phrases used regarding the wicked, "not be", "be no more", "shall not be found", "shall be removed", shall be "burned up", "destroyed", "die".... there really isn't any doubt for the objective reader.

The problem here is how much credence you give your OWN sense of "fairness", or "equality"!
You are NOT the first;
Ezek 18:25-26 Yet ye say, The way of Jehovah is not equal. Hear now, O house of Israel; Is not my way equal? are not your ways unequal?
26 When a righteous man turneth away from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, and dieth in them; for his iniquity that he hath done shall he die.

Notice, it is the FUTURE tense for the 2nd death!! The verse is NOT saying "for his iniquity that he hath done DID he die!!

God is in the "give life to the righteous, destroy the wicked" business. It would be VERY helpful to you to study how "IF" is used in the Scriptures.

 

[Dartman]

The text doesn't claim they EXPERIENCE "everlasting shame and contempt", that is the RESULT. It is the eternal result of their sin, their rebellion, even though the sinner is destroyed, is "no more", their actions result in shame and contempt FOR THEM.

How do those who do not exist have "everlasting shame"?

Are the Germans ashamed of Hitler?
Duh!
You are trying to force the verse to say something it doesn't.
The two RESULTS of awaking from the dust are; Life ... or "everlasting shame and contempt".