Universalism...why not?

[mkgal1]

Dying into Life:

As the Catholic funeral preface says, “Life is not ended but merely changed.” This is the divine mystery of transformation, which is entirely evident in the physical universe. This is why I believe in the physical resurrection of Jesus, even if it is a new kind of physicality, which Paul struggles to describe (1 Corinthians 15:35ff).

Resurrection is not a miracle as much as it is an enduring relationship. The best way to speak about the Resurrection is not to say, “Jesus rose from the dead”—as if it was a self-generated miracle—but to say, “Jesus was raised from the dead” (as many early texts state). The Eternal Christ is thus revealed as the map, the blueprint, the promise, the pledge, the guarantee of what is happening everywhere, all summed up in one person so we can see it in personified form.

If you can understand Jesus as the human archetype, a stand-in for everybody and everything, you will get much closer to the Gospel message. I think this is exactly why Jesus usually called himself “The Son of Man.” His resurrection is not so much a miracle that we can argue about, believe, or disbelieve, but an invitation to look deeper at what is always happening in the life process itself. Jesus, or any member of “the Body of Christ,” cannot really die because we are participating in something eternal—the Cosmic Christ that came forth from God.

Death is not just physical dying, but going to the full depth of things, hitting the bottom, beyond where you are in control. And in that sense, we all probably go through many deaths in our lifetime. These deaths to the small self are tipping points, opportunities to choose transformation. Unfortunately, the vast majority of people turn bitter and look for someone to blame. So their death is indeed death for them, because they close down to growth and new life.

But if you do choose to walk through the depths—even the depths of your own sin and mistakes—you will come out the other side, knowing you’ve been taken there by a Source larger than yourself. Surely this is what it means to be saved. Being saved doesn’t mean that you are any better than anyone else. It means you’ve allowed and accepted the mystery of transformation, which is always pure gift.~https://cac.org/dying-into-life-2016-07-05/

 

[Dartman]

It isn't the state that's destroyed, it's the process. There isn't a single text that discusses the destruction of "dead".

No destruction of "dead"?

MAT 22:29 Jesus replied, "You are in error because you do not know the Scriptures or the power of God.

JOH 12:24 I tell you the truth, unless a kernel of wheat falls to the ground and dies, it remains only a single seed. But if it dies, it produces many seeds.

The verses you quote discuss 1st death ..... not 2nd death. It is DEATH that's destroyed in the lake of fire..... not the stated of being DEAD. Resurrection is the ONLY hope for those that are dead. And resurrection is ONLY to life, or to damnation, in Scripture.

 

[Dartman]

Isn't He (and His life) to point us towards truth?

Of course.

Didn't He "join with humanity" in His incarnation?

Jesus is a direct descendant of Eve, Abraham, David and Mary .... to name a few. He is a Jew.

Isn't much of that point to "walk in newness of life" as Romans 6:4 says:

We therefore were buried with Him through baptism into death, in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, we too may walk in newness of life.
​

There are 2 senses in which the believer is to "walk in newness of life", and Jesus of Nazareth is the perfect example of both. Jesus IS the "first fruits" of the resurrection to eternal life, the first born of every creature regarding his God's new creation, and "those that are Christ's at his coming" look forward to the day they too will receive eternal life, when the mortal righteous "puts on immortality":
1 Cor 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. 53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. 54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.

 

[Rajni]

His resurrection is not so much a miracle that we can argue about,

Why do I have the feeling this won't stop anyone from trying?

 

[mkgal1]

Didn't He "join with humanity" in His incarnation?

Jesus is a direct descendant of Eve, Abraham, David and Mary .... to name a few. He is a Jew.

??? I'm not sure why you responding that way.

Yes....He was Jewish. Jesus "joined with humanity" in His incarnation......yes? (Or are you of the belief that Jesus isn't God....is THAT why you responded like that?).

 

[mkgal1]

How important is "if"?

Not for the wicked.
Heb 10:26-27 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins, 27 But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.

The way I read this is.....this whole chapter is framed with the point being that the intuitive idea of being purified by sin through offering of sacrifice (man's idea) is weak and fallible. The improvement on that is God's incarnation and forgiveness of ALL of our sin (Hebrews 10:14, 1 Peter 3:18). I read v 27 to be saying that if a person sins willfully after receiving the knowledge of truth.....if they rely on offering their OWN sacrifices for forgiveness of sin....they are going to be the ones that are "fearful" [this is the "certain fearful looking for judgement"]....expecting "fiery indignation". IOW.....it's an attitude that's within their hearts. They bring it on their selves. This whole idea of "I'm going to be devoured for my sin" isn't from God......it's from humanity (just look at ALL the other cultures that have sacrifices to their gods in order to appease them). In my belief.....God takes that shame and fear from us by actually being that sacrifice...the LAST sacrifice.....the BEST sacrifice that no other can compete with.

 

[Dartman]

??? I'm not sure why you responding that way.

Yes....He was Jewish. Jesus "joined with humanity" in His incarnation......yes? (Or are you of the belief that Jesus isn't God....is THAT why you responded like that?).

What does the Scripture say???
Jesus said he worships the God of the Jews (John 4:22) Jesus said his father is his God (John 20:17, Rev 3:12) Jehovah/YHVH God says Jesus is His servant, His anointed Isa 42:1-8, Acts 4:27,30
You have "joined with humanity" in quotes .... like that is a quote from Scripture???? Where????

 

[Dartman]

The way I read this is.....this whole chapter is framed with the point being that the intuitive idea of being purified by sin through offering of sacrifice (man's idea) is weak and fallible. The improvement on that is God's incarnation and forgiveness of ALL of our sin (Hebrews 10:14, 1 Peter 3:18). I read v 27 to be saying that if a person sins willfully after receiving the knowledge of truth.....if they rely on offering their OWN sacrifices for forgiveness of sin....they are going to be the ones that are "fearful" [this is the "certain fearful looking for judgement"]....expecting "fiery indignation". IOW.....it's an attitude that's within their hearts. They bring it on their selves. This whole idea of "I'm going to be devoured for my sin" isn't from God......it's from humanity (just look at ALL the other cultures that have sacrifices to their gods in order to appease them). In my belief.....God takes that shame and fear from us by actually being that sacrifice...the LAST sacrifice.....the BEST sacrifice that no other can compete with.

I don't agree with your "rewrite" of the chapter..... at all. Your attempt to mute, and divert the actual words of the text isn't exegesis ... it's eisegesis; "interpreting a text or portion of text in such a way that the process introduces one's own presuppositions, agendas".

 

[ClementofA]

Only those that believe, repent, and obey, in this life.
There is no "second chance" after death. Ever. For anyone, or anything. Jesus said there are two options in resurrection;
John 5:28-29 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, 29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.
The angel told Daniel there are 2 options in resurrection;
Dan 12:2-3 Multitudes who sleep in the dust of the earth will awake: some to everlasting life, others to shame and everlasting contempt.

You left out verse 3 of Daniel 12. The context does not support the unbiblical theory of endless annihilation:

The context supports the view that both the life & the punishment referred to in v.2 are of finite duration (OLAM), while v.3 speaks of those who will be for OLAM "and further".

2 From those sleeping in the soil of the ground many shall awake, these to eonian life
and these to reproach for eonian repulsion." 3 The intelligent shall warn as the warning
of the atmosphere, and those justifying many are as the stars for the eon and further."
(Dan.12:2-3, CLOT)

The Hebrew word for eonian (v.2) & eon (v.3) above is OLAM which is used of limited durations in the OT. In verse 3 of Daniel 12 are the words "OLAM and further" showing an example of its finite duration in the very next words after Daniel 12:2. Thus, in context, the OLAM occurences in v.2 should both be understood as being of finite duration.

Compare v.3:

l·oulm u·od
for·eon and·futurity

http://www.scripture4all.org/OnlineInterlinear/OTpdf/dan12.pdf

OJB Hashem shall reign l’olam va’ed.
Yahweh shall rule to the eon and beyond (Exo 15:18)
Universal Version Bible The Torah By William Petr

Habbukah 3:6:

JPS Tanakh 1917
He standeth, and shaketh the earth, He beholdeth, and maketh the nations to tremble; And the everlasting[olam] mountains are dashed in pieces, The ancient[olam] hills do bow; His goings are as of old[olam].

Young's Literal Translation
He hath stood, and He measureth earth, He hath seen, and He shaketh off nations, And scatter themselves do mountains of antiquity, Bowed have the hills of old, The ways of old are His.

CLV
He stands and is measuring the earth; he sees and is letting loose the nations. And the mountain ranges of futurity are scattering; the eonian hills bow down; his goings are eonian.

Daniel 12:2:

Young's Literal Translation
'And the multitude of those sleeping in the dust of the ground do awake, some to life
age-during, and some to reproaches -- to abhorrence age-during. (Dan.12:2)

Rotherham
and, many of the sleepers in the dusty ground, shall awake,—these, [shall be] to age-
abiding life, but, those, to reproach, and age-abiding abhorrence; (Dan.12:2)

There's no mention of annihilation there whatsoever.

https://www.tentmaker.org/books/hope_beyond_hell.pdf

 

[ClementofA]

As already proven, the first 12 verses of this chapter prove the "works" burned up are the failed converts that the teacher built... they are destroyed, but the preacher will still be saved ... IF, that teacher doesn't become a "castaway" (1 Cor 9:27).

Those who are destroyed can include anyone who is a "temple of God":

15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.
16 Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?
17 If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are.

The purpose of the destruction by God (v.17) is salvation (v.15):

1 Cor.5:5 To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.

1 Cor.13:2 If I have the gift of prophecy, and know all mysteries and all knowledge; and if I have all faith, so as to remove mountains, but do not have love, I am nothing...
4 Love is patient, love is kind and is not jealous; love does not brag and is not arrogant, 5 does not act unbecomingly; it does not seek its own, is not provoked, does not take into account a wrong suffered, 6 does not rejoice in unrighteousness, but rejoices with the truth; 7 bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things.
8 Love never fails; but if there are gifts of prophecy, they will be done away; if there are tongues, they will cease; if there is knowledge, it will be done away. 9 For we know in part and we prophesy in part; 10 but when the perfect comes, the partial will be done away...
13 But now faith, hope, love, abide these three; but the greatest of these is love.

1 Corinthians 15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive... 28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.

https://www.tentmaker.org/books/hope_beyond_hell.pdf

 

[ClementofA]

Exactly like Jesus stated; "they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation."

Most versions translate the word "damnation" as "judgement".

Judgement is a good thing:

"My soul yearns for you in the night; in the morning my spirit longs for you. When your judgments come upon the earth, the people of the world learn righteousness." (Isa.26:9)

The Lord is acquainted with the rescue of the devout out of trial, yet is keeping the unjust for chastening in the day of judging. (2 Pet.2:9)

51 And it came to pass, when the time was come that he should be received up, he stedfastly set his face to go to Jerusalem, 52 And sent messengers before his face: and they went, and entered into a village of the Samaritans, to make ready for him. 53 And they did not receive him, because his face was as though he would go to Jerusalem. 54 And when his disciples James and John saw this, they said, Lord, wilt thou that we command fire to come down from heaven, and consume them, even as Elias did? 55 But he turned, and rebuked them, and said, Ye know not what manner of spirit ye are of. 56 For the Son of man is not come to destroy men's lives, but to save them. (Luke 9)

https://www.tentmaker.org/books/hope_beyond_hell.pdf

 

[ClementofA]

It is DEATH that's destroyed in the lake of fire..... not the stated of being DEAD.

The definitions of the word "death" include the "state of being dead":

Definition of DEATH

 

[mkgal1]

What does the Scripture say???
Jesus said he worships the God of the Jews (John 4:22) Jesus said his father is his God (John 20:17, Rev 3:12) Jehovah/YHVH God says Jesus is His servant, His anointed Isa 42:1-8, Acts 4:27,30

You have "joined with humanity" in quotes .... like that is a quote from Scripture???? Where????​

So....in other words, you DO NOT believe Jesus is God incarnate (you seem to be avoiding that direct question).

I put that in quotes as a paraphrase of these verses (typically believed by Nicene/Trinitarian believers...which is what I am):
​

The Word became flesh and made His dwelling among us. ~John 1:4

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.~John 1:1

"Behold, the virgin will hold in womb, and will bring forth a son, and they will call His name Immanuel" which is, being translated, "God with us."~Matthew 1:23

For to us a child is born, to us a son is given; and the government will be upon his shoulder, and his name is called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.~Isaiah 9:6

You are My witnesses,” declares the LORD,
“And My servant whom I have chosen,
So that you may know and believe Me
And understand that I am He.
Before Me there was no God formed,
And there will be none after Me.

11“I, even I, am the LORD,
And there is no savior besides Me.~Isaiah 43:10-11​

Jesus speaking: 17When I saw Him, I fell at His feet like a dead man. And He placed His right hand on me, saying, “Do not be afraid; I am the first and the last, 18and the living One; and I was dead, and behold, I am alive forevermore, and I have the keys of death and of Hades.~Revelation 1:17​

My favorite Greek Orthodox icon that depicts this:

Christ is risen from the dead,
Trampling down death by death,
And upon those in the tombs bestowing life!
-Paschal (Easter) Hymn
~The Resurrection | Icon of Victory​

​

 

[ClementofA]

And resurrection is ONLY to life, or to damnation, in Scripture.

"AS in Adam ALL die
SO ALSO in Christ shall ALL be made alive.
BUT each in his own order:

1. Christ the Firstfruit;

2. Then they that are Christ's, at His coming;

3. Then cometh the end [order], WHEN He shall deliver
up the kingdom to God, even the Father; WHEN He shall
have abolished ALL rule and ALL authority and power.
For He must reign. TILL He hath put all His enemies
under His feet. THE LAST ENEMY THAT SHALL BE ABOLISHED
IS DEATH. (1 Cor. 15:22-26, R.V.)."

"...But each in his own order. Not a "but" of exception,
rather a "but" of order. ALL are to be made alive but at
different times. "Each in his own order." Three orders
are enumerated and located in relation to other events:

1. Christ the Firstfruit — Three days alter His death.

2. Then those who are Christ's — At His coming.

3. Then the end [order] — WHEN He shall deliver up the
kingdom."

"It is the third or "end" order that many overlook. A
thoughtful reading of this passage will enable most be-
lievers to see clearly that the words "then cometh the
end" refer to this end order to be made alive. The sub-
ject the apostle is elucidating is: The order in which
all who die in Adam will be made alive in Christ (vs. 22-
24). Christ the firstfruit (order one) and those who
are Christ's at His coming (order two) comprise only
a small part of the all who die in Adam. A third order
is necessary to make all alive. To refer the "end" to
anything else is to ignore the context and to introduce
something foreign to the subject. It cannot possibly
refer to an end of the kingdom, for though the kingdom
will be "delivered up" to the Father (1 Cor. 15:24), it
will never end (Luke 1:33)."

"Four statements in this passage indicate that the
words "then cometh the end" refer to the making alive
of an end order.

1. "As in Adam all die, so also in Christ shall all be made
alive. But each in his own order" (vs. 22. 23).

2. "The last enemy that shall be abolished is death" (vs. 26).
It is the making alive of ALL that will abolish death. As long
as any remain dead, death has not been abolished.

3. "When all things have been subjected unto the Son" (vs.
27, 28). The dead must ALL be made alive if all are to be sub-
jected unto the Son. The only exception in this subjection is
God the Father.

4. "That God may be All in all" (vs. 28). This requires that
all be made alive. As long as any remain dead God cannot be
ALL in ALL, for He is not the God of the dead (Luke 20:37, 38)."

As in Adam all die

 

[mkgal1]

I don't agree with your "rewrite" of the chapter..... at all.

That's completely fine. That's the beauty of free will.

Your attempt to mute, and divert the actual words of the text isn't exegesis ... it's eisegesis; "interpreting a text or portion of text in such a way that the process introduces one's own presuppositions, agendas".

.....ironic. Your accusation has its own presuppositions and agenda.

As I've posted before.....this isn't a topic that's even debatable. The Bible is ambiguous on the subject so it's not "provable" one way or the other. I'm not willing to be dogmatic about it (nor argue with others that ARE dogmatic about it).

 

[mkgal1]

You have "joined with humanity" in quotes .... like that is a quote from Scripture???? Where????

I can't believe I'm actually quoting from Desiring God's website...but this is why I used that phrase:

>>>>The hypostatic union is the joining (mysterious though it be) of the divine and the human in the one person of Jesus.~What Is the Hypostatic Union? | Desiring God

It's a common phrase (well.....common to me, anyway).
​

He has demonstrated His love for us in that while we were still sinners, He took our nature to His one person and died for us (Romans 5:8).
​

 

[Dartman]

It is DEATH that's destroyed in the lake of fire..... not the stated of being DEAD.

The definitions of the word "death" include the "state of being dead":

Definition of DEATH

That's not relevant to the Scriptural understanding of what is destroyed in the lake of fire.

 

[Dartman]

You left out verse 3 of Daniel 12. The context does not support the unbiblical theory of endless annihilation:

You are missing the point. The text clearly states the dead are sleeping in the dust. The text clearly states there are two possible outcomes of resurrection, just like Jesus states in John 5:28-30. Your attempts to divert from these points underscores the damage they do your theory.

 

[Der Alte]

You left out verse 3 of Daniel 12. The context does not support the unbiblical theory of endless annihilation:
The context supports the view that both the life & the punishment referred to in v.2 are of finite duration (OLAM), while v.3 speaks of those who will be for OLAM "and further".
2 From those sleeping in the soil of the ground many shall awake, these to eonian life
and these to reproach for eonian repulsion." 3 The intelligent shall warn as the warning
of the atmosphere, and those justifying many are as the stars for the eon and further."
(Dan.12:2-3, CLOT)
The Hebrew word for eonian (v.2) & eon (v.3) above is OLAM which is used of limited durations in the OT. In verse 3 of Daniel 12 are the words "OLAM and further" showing an example of its finite duration in the very next words after Daniel 12:2. Thus, in context, the OLAM occurences in v.2 should both be understood as being of finite duration.
Compare v.3:
l·oulm u·od
for·eon and·futurity
http://www.scripture4all.org/OnlineInterlinear/OTpdf/dan12.pdf
OJB Hashem shall reign l’olam va’ed.
Yahweh shall rule to the eon and beyond (Exo 15:18)
Universal Version Bible The Torah By William Petr
Habbukah 3:6:
JPS Tanakh 1917
He standeth, and shaketh the earth, He beholdeth, and maketh the nations to tremble; And the everlasting[olam] mountains are dashed in pieces, The ancient[olam] hills do bow; His goings are as of old[olam].
Young's Literal Translation
He hath stood, and He measureth earth, He hath seen, and He shaketh off nations, And scatter themselves do mountains of antiquity, Bowed have the hills of old, The ways of old are His.
CLV
He stands and is measuring the earth; he sees and is letting loose the nations. And the mountain ranges of futurity are scattering; the eonian hills bow down; his goings are eonian.
Daniel 12:2:
Young's Literal Translation
'And the multitude of those sleeping in the dust of the ground do awake, some to life
age-during, and some to reproaches -- to abhorrence age-during. (Dan.12:2)
Rotherham
and, many of the sleepers in the dusty ground, shall awake,—these, [shall be] to age-
abiding life, but, those, to reproach, and age-abiding abhorrence; (Dan.12:2)
There's no mention of annihilation there whatsoever.

Quoting only "versions" which support one's assumptions only proves the bias of the one quoting..

JPS Daniel 12:2
(2) And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to reproaches and everlasting abhorrence.[JPS=Jewish Publication Society]
LXX-E Dan 12:2
(2) And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting [αἰώνιος/aionios] life, and some to reproach and everlasting [αἰώνιος/aionios] shame.​

If you want to prove these two Jewish sources wrong you have a lot of work. The only sources which can prove these wrong are Jewish sources. Good luck.
JPS Exod 15:18 The LORD shall reign for ever and ever
LXX Exod 15:18 The Lord reigns for ever [αἰώνιος/aionios] and ever [ἔτ'/et] and ever [ἔτι/eti] .

 

[ClementofA]

You are missing the point. The text clearly states the dead are sleeping in the dust. The text clearly states there are two possible outcomes of resurrection, just like Jesus states in John 5:58-30. Your attempts to divert from these points underscores the damage they do your theory.

There is no John 5:58.

Exactly like Jesus stated; "they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation."

Most versions translate the word "damnation" as "judgement"

John 5:29 and come out--those who have done what is good will rise to live, and those who have done what is evil will rise to be condemned.

Judgement is a good thing:

"My soul yearns for you in the night; in the morning my spirit longs for you. When your judgments come upon the earth, the people of the world learn righteousness." (Isa.26:9)

The Lord is acquainted with the rescue of the devout out of trial, yet is keeping the unjust for chastening in the day of judging. (2 Pet.2:9)

51 And it came to pass, when the time was come that he should be received up, he stedfastly set his face to go to Jerusalem, 52 And sent messengers before his face: and they went, and entered into a village of the Samaritans, to make ready for him. 53 And they did not receive him, because his face was as though he would go to Jerusalem. 54 And when his disciples James and John saw this, they said, Lord, wilt thou that we command fire to come down from heaven, and consume them, even as Elias did? 55 But he turned, and rebuked them, and said, Ye know not what manner of spirit ye are of. 56 For the Son of man is not come to destroy men's lives, but to save them. (Luke 9)

https://www.tentmaker.org/books/hope_beyond_hell.pdf