Universalism...why not?

[2PhiloVoid]

In answer to the question about "is there any incentive to repent of sin"? I think that goes right back to the OP....and, if one believes that the ultimate soul objective is to be in union with God--then of course there's incentive to repent. Sin clouds our view.....distorts reality....causes us to believe things that aren't true....so, even though God is "for us"..... I believe we can't *accept* His love fully when we're corrupted from sin. In the parable of the Prodigal......I don't believe the older son had "repented"....and because of that....was keeping himself from accepting the love and joy from his brother and father. That's what I believe disbelief and corruption does.

...yeah, I guess we're a little different in what we think disbelief and corruption does to a person's being.

 

[mkgal1]

in reading the Letter of Paul to the Ephesians, I believe his context implies that only those who in fact do place their faith in Christ, with a part of that faith also involving repentance, will then escape the Wrath of God

what I see in the Scriptures is that some people aren't going to escape God's Wrath and will be assigned to eternal destruction, in whatever shape or form that happens to be.

Where specifically are you getting these ideas from?

 

[2PhiloVoid]

Where specifically are you getting these ideas from?

Ephesians 5:1-7, for starters. How do you interpret what Paul writes here?

 

[mkgal1]

This is redundant to those that have read from the beginning.....but for those that *haven't*.....to me, these are excellent examples of "restorative justice". The whole goal is to "make whole" these people.....to restore them....to encourage the goodness that's always been within them. Also....to me....this is a small glimpse of what God's love/fire is:

 

[2PhiloVoid]

This is redundant to those that have read from the beginning.....but for those that *haven't*.....to me, these are excellent examples of "restorative justice". The whole goal is to "make whole" these people.....to restore them....to encourage the goodness that's always been within them. Also....to me....this is a small glimpse of what God's love/fire is:

ok. If that is how you see it. In the meantime, since you've given me no good hermeneutical reasons to switch to the universalist point-of-view, and you just dodge what I've cited with an eisegetical waive of the hand, then I'll just continue to stick with my Ecumenical, Inclusivist, Annihilationist position...

 

[2PhiloVoid]

Thank you. I for one do believe in 'Once saved always saved', but that has nothing to do with whether or not one can still be a UR believer. We've all got our own mix in the UR belief system.

No more than I appreciated your slam of UR when you subsequently pretty much admit you're ignorant of it. So if you can't take it, then don't dish it out.

Probably better to ask more questions and not come up with an analogy which reflected as poorly on you from my perspective as your UR reflected upon us.

...also, by the way, while I'm at it, I'd just like to bring to your attention that nowhere here at any time have I even hinted, let alone implied, that you aren't also a Christian. But, apparently to your universalist's position, I get written off from the beginning as not 'exemplifying a Christian understanding.' How ironic, Hillsage. I'm glad to see that you're the "sage" who gets to tell everyone how they measure up, or not.

Want to know what is also ironic? It's ironic that I have a policy against placing anyone on 'ignore'.......

 

[mkgal1]

Ephesians 5:1-7, for starters. How do you interpret what Paul writes here?

I think you should let us know first how YOU interpret this passage since you're the one presenting it as your evidence for your belief system.

I have a few questions. This is the passage (well.....this is verses 2-5, anyway):

2 And •walk in love, as the •Messiah also loved us and gave Himself for us,a a sacrificial and fragrant offering to God. 3 But sexual immorality and any impurity or greed should not even be heard of among you, as is proper for •saints. 4 Coarse and foolish talking or crude joking are not suitable, but rather giving thanks. 5 For know and recognize this: Every sexually immoral or impure or greedy person, who is an idolater, does not have an inheritance in the kingdom of the Messiah and of God.​

What do we know from other places about what the "inheritance in the kingdom of God" is?

You don't believe that if anyone from the Church @ Ephesus were to be greedy....or those that were "sexually immoral" would "burn in hell"....do you? If not.....then what's meant by this passage? It's written to believers.....true (it's addressed to, "To the holy and faithful people in Christ Jesus in Ephesus")? So why the warning of "God's wrath for disobedience" here:

6 Let no one deceive you with empty arguments, for God’s wrath is coming on the disobedient because of these things.

Does that mean this group has some sort of "escape" and this doesn't apply to them? If so....where does *that* idea come from? See how this isn't an easy-to-answer thing....but there's a LOT of deconstruction necessary. It's a lot like pulling on a end of yarn in a knitted blanket.​

​

 

[mkgal1]

In the meantime, since you've given me no good hermeneutical reasons to switch to the universalist point-of-view, and you just dodge what I've cited with an eisegetical waive of the hand, then I'll just continue to stick with my Ecumenical, Inclusivist, Annihilationist position...

Just to let you know......I didn't "dodge"......I was attending to real-life events and stepped away from the computer for a bit..

 

[ClementofA]

what I see in the Scriptures is that some people aren't going to escape God's Wrath and will be assigned to eternal destruction, in whatever shape or form that happens to be.

9 Who, indeed, a penalty, shall pay—age-abiding destruction from the face of the Lord and from the glory of his might— (Rotherham)

9 who shall incur the justice of eonian extermination from the face of the Lord, and from the glory of His strength" (CLNT)

who shall suffer justice -- destruction age-during -- from the face of the Lord, and from the glory of his strength, (2 Thess 1:9, YLT)

Regarding the mistranslation "eternal": "166 aiṓnios (an adjective, derived from 165 /aiṓn ("an age, having a particular character and quality") – properly, "age-like" ("like-an-age"), i.e. an "age-characteristic" (the quality describing a particular age);..." Strong's Greek: 166. αἰώνιος (aiónios) -- agelong, eternal

... deliver such a one to Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that his spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus. (1Cor 5:5)
Jesus answered them, "Destroy this temple, and I will raise it again in three days." (Jn.2:19)

Mt.25:46, punishment, kolasis, "2851. kolasis...Short Definition: chastisement, punishment..."

"...in a passage in Origen in which he speaks of “life after aionios life” (160). As a native speaker of Greek he does not see a contradiction in such phrasing; that is because aionios life does not mean “unending, eternal life,” but rather “life of the next age.” Likewise the Bible uses the word kolasis to describe the punishment of the age to come. Aristotle distinguished kolasis from timoria, the latter referring to punishment inflicted “in the interest of him who inflicts it, that he may obtain satisfaction.” On the other hand, kolasis refers to correction, it “is inflicted in the interest of the sufferer” (quoted at 32). Thus Plato can affirm that it is good to be punished (to undergo kolasis), because in this way a person is made better (ibid.). This distinction survived even past the time of the writing of the New Testament, since Clement of Alexandria affirms that God does not timoreitai, punish for retribution, but he does kolazei, correct sinners (127)."
Ilaria Ramelli, The Christian Doctrine of Apokatastasis: A Critical Assessment from the New Testament to Eriugena | Nemes | Journal of Analytic Theology


"Does the eschatological destruction of 2 Thessalonians 1:9 exclude all redemptive possibilities? Nothing in the text requires such a reading." Continued at:

Thomas Talbott: The Inescapable Love of God (part 5)

II Thessalonians 1:8-9

 

[ClementofA]

That's ok. You don't have to know what it is. All I'm saying here is that it seems the universalist's position implies that the Holy Spirit wakes up everyone sometime during this life, or that there is some kind of 'second chance' extended to everyone after death, which I don't seem to see an indication of in the Scriptures; the concept even of Purgatory notwithstanding.

Here is a post i was reading the other day, submitted for your perusal:

"The Lord knows how to deliver the devout out of trial, but to reserve the unrighteous for a day of judgment, to be corrected. (2 Peter 2:9)

Here is an interlinear for your consideration:
οιδεν—κυριος— ευσεβεις εκ πειρασμου ρυεσθαι— αδικους
knows the Lord- devout—out of trial—— to deliver-unrighteous

δε -εις —ημεραν κρισεως—— κολαζομενους τηρειν
but into a day—- of judgment to be corrected to keep (2 Peter 2:9)

The whole strength of this “proof” lies in the translation of the lexical form of κολαζομενους, that is, “κολαζω” as “to correct”. I realize that some may object to this translation, but the Online Bible Greek Lexicon gives the primary meanings of “κολαζω”as:
1. to lop or prune
2. to chastise, correct, punish

Abbott-Smith's A Manual Greek Lexicon of the New Testament gives the meanings:
1. to curtail, dock, prune
2. to check, restrain
3. to chastise, correct, punish

Originally, the word was used to reference to the pruning of trees, shrubs, or vines with a view to correcting their growth by shaping them. Later it was used figuratively with reference to the correction of people, e.g. Children. To translate the word as “punish” is correct as long as it is understood to be reformative rather than retributive. In English, “punish” may have either connotation, although it is more often taken in the latter sense, or in the sense of administering a penalty.

In Greek, the word “τιμωρεω” has the meaning “to punish” in the retributive sense. Indeed, every lexicon I have checked gives the primary meaning as “to avenge”. Strongs indicates that the word was derived from the two words “τιμη” (honour) and “οὐρος”(guard). Put them together, and you have the concept of a person guarding his honour through vengeance. In recording Paul's own words concerning his treatment of disciples of Christ prior to Paul's becoming a disciple himself, Luke wrote:

Acts 22:5 "as also the high priest bears me witness, and all the council of the elders, from whom I also received letters to the brethren, and went to Damascus to bring in chains even those who were there to Jerusalem to be punished (τιμωρεω).
Acts 26:11 "and I punished (τιμωρεω) them often in every synagogue and compelled them to blaspheme; and being exceedingly enraged against them, I persecuted them even to foreign cities.

One of the best ways to get a sense of how a Greek word is used is to note how it is used in literature. The word is used in 4 Macabees 2:12 to indicate correction of children. No good parent punishes his children out of vengeance, but corrects them out of love.

4 Macabees is thought to have been written sometime between 100 B.C. to 100 A.D., that is, in the period in which the New Testament was written. It seems the author had been strongly moved by his reading of the deeds of Antiochus Ephiphanes against the Jews in 1 and 2 Macabees. So much of his “philosophical” thought and “devout reason” centers around the history he read there. In the following sentence he uses both “τιμωρεω” and “ κολαζω“ in a single sentence!

The tyrant Antiochus was both punished (τιμωρεω) on earth and is being corrected (κολαζω) after his death. (4 Maccabees 18:5)

The Judaistic belief at the time was that people's souls survive death. So the sentence seems to say that while Antochus's enemies got their revenge on him and his armies here on earth, God began to correct his soul after death. The author apparently held that post-mortem punishment was remedial. Otherwise he would not have chosen the word “κολαζω” but would have maintained the word “τιμωρεω” for his punishment after death, too.

Here is an example from the Septuagint translation of Ezekiel 43:10-11:

And you, son of man, show to the household of Israel, the house, and show its appearance and its arrangement,that they may cease from their sins. And they shall receive their κολασις concerning all their doings, and you shall describe the house, and its entrances and its foundation, and all its systems, and you shall make known to them all it regulations and describe them in their presence, and they shall guard all my righteous ordinances and all my commands and do them. (Ezekiel 43:10-11)

In this passage, God states His purpose in asking Ezekiel to show the house to Israel, namely that they may cease from their sins. He immediately follows this with “And they shall receive their κολασις concerning all their doings.” If God wants them to cease from their sins, and then gives them κολασις, is he punishing them retributively, or is He correcting them? The answer seems plain. Furthermore the conclusion of the matter is that the Israelites “will guard all my righteous ordinances and all my commands and do them.”

Surely this is reformation, and not mere revenge for their wrongdoing in the past.
Here is the Concordant translation of the verse in question:

The Lord is acquainted with the rescue of the devout out of trial, yet is keeping the unjust for chastening in the day of judging."

Why is Universal Salvation not Explicit?

 

[Hillsage]

...also, by the way, while I'm at it, I'd just like to bring to your attention that nowhere here at any time have I even hinted, let alone implied, that you aren't also a Christian.

You know what the difference is between a Hillsage and a Mountain Sage. Thought not, go read my profile....it's there.

But, apparently to your universalist's position, I get written off from the beginning as not 'exemplifying a Christian understanding.' How ironic, Hillsage. I'm glad to see that you're the "sage" who gets to tell everyone how they measure up, or not.

Nope had nothing to do with my Universalist position, had to do with your short sighted analogy apparently.

Want to know what is also ironic? It's ironic that I have a policy against placing anyone on 'ignore'.......

Well good, at least we have that in common. And maybe we can get past the petty hurt feelings and actually dialogue. If you can't that's OK....I understand.

 

[Dartman]

1 Corinthians 3:15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.

Universalists have been divided re whether or not the passage (v.12-17) supports the salvation of all human beings.

I notice you perpetuate your error, by excluding the rest of the context. The first 11 verses establish the context is, teachers converting believers by God "giving the increase". The "gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay and stubble" are those a teacher converts, with God's help. Paul is explaining that the failure of those we have helped come to God, doesn't prevent us from being saved.

It's the reverse of Paul's message in 1 Cor 9:27 But I keep under my body, and bring it into subjection: lest that by any means, when I have preached to others, I myself should be a castaway.
It is entirely possible for a teacher to preach to others, and still lose their OWN salvation!

 

[ClementofA]

It's the reverse of Paul's message in 1 Cor 9:27 But I keep under my body, and bring it into subjection: lest that by any means, when I have preached to others, I myself should be a castaway.
It is entirely possible for a teacher to preach to others, and still lose their OWN salvation!

Yes, it is!

Compare 1 Cor.3:17, loss of salvation.

But even they shall be saved, as the immediate context indicates (v.15):

15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.
16 Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?
17 If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are.

Compare v.17 with

1 Cor.5:5 To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.

Compare v.15 with

And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be. (Revelation 22:12, KJV)
And lo, I come quickly, and my reward is with me, to render to each as his work shall be; (Rev.22:12, YLT)

Jeremiah 17:10
"I, the LORD, search the heart, I test the mind, Even to give to each man according to his ways, According to the results of his deeds.

Matthew 16:27
For the Son of Man will come in His Father's glory with His angels, and then He will repay each one according to what he has done.

Revelation 2:23
Then I will strike her children dead, and all the churches will know that I am the One who searches minds and hearts, and I will repay each of you according to your deeds.

Romans 2:6-11 Who will render to every man according to his deeds…

In Mt 25:31-46...the righteous & the unrighteous are distinguished by their works.

James says faith without works is dead:

James 2:20b-26 faith without works is dead 21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar? 22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect? 23 And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God. 24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only. 25 Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way? 26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

1 Corinthians, unlike Galatians, puts heavy emphasis on works, what you do.

1 Corinthians ties certain works to loss of salvation, e.g. 1 Cor.3:17 & 5:1-5 & 6:9-11.

Compare also 7:19, 9:27; 10:5-13; 10:18-22; 11:27-32.

https://www.tentmaker.org/books/hope_beyond_hell.pdf

 

[2PhiloVoid]

I think you should let us know first how YOU interpret this passage since you're the one presenting it as your evidence for your belief system.

I have a few questions. This is the passage (well.....this is verses 2-5, anyway):

2 And •walk in love, as the •Messiah also loved us and gave Himself for us,a a sacrificial and fragrant offering to God. 3 But sexual immorality and any impurity or greed should not even be heard of among you, as is proper for •saints. 4 Coarse and foolish talking or crude joking are not suitable, but rather giving thanks. 5 For know and recognize this: Every sexually immoral or impure or greedy person, who is an idolater, does not have an inheritance in the kingdom of the Messiah and of God.​

What do we know from other places about what the "inheritance in the kingdom of God" is?

You don't believe that if anyone from the Church @ Ephesus were to be greedy....or those that were "sexually immoral" would "burn in hell"....do you? If not.....then what's meant by this passage? It's written to believers.....true (it's addressed to, "To the holy and faithful people in Christ Jesus in Ephesus")? So why the warning of "God's wrath for disobedience" here:

6 Let no one deceive you with empty arguments, for God’s wrath is coming on the disobedient because of these things.
​

Does that mean this group has some sort of "escape" and this doesn't apply to them? If so....where does *that* idea come from? See how this isn't an easy-to-answer thing....but there's a LOT of deconstruction necessary. It's a lot like pulling on a end of yarn in a knitted blanket.
​

I'm answering nothing until the questions I posed to you earlier are answered. Don't do a 'bait and switch' on me...I'm not going to bite.

Again: What about Hitler and similar psychopaths? How is it that he gets saved? If you won't answer this, then don't bother to respond any further. It's not me that has the burden of proof here in this thread. It's those who hold a universalist position.

 

[ClementofA]

Again: What about Hitler and similar psychopaths? How is it that he gets saved?

The same Way others are saved. Through Christ (Jn.14:6; Acts 4:12). That's how.

I'm guessing Hitler should be a piece of cake to save compared to Satan.

https://www.tentmaker.org/books/hope_beyond_hell.pdf

 

[2PhiloVoid]

The same Way others are saved. Through Christ (Jn.14:6; Acts 4:12). That's how.

I'm guessing Hitler should be a piece of cake to save compared to Satan.

https://www.tentmaker.org/books/hope_beyond_hell.pdf

This kind of answer is simplistic and doesn't explain the steps in the process. Again, can you show how this is to come about in a clear and distinct explanation as to what Hitler (or anyone like him) has to specifically do to be saved in Christ?

Don't skirt the issue; rather, answer the question.

 

[ClementofA]

This kind of answer is simplistic and doesn't explain the steps in the process. Again, can you show how this is to come about in a clear and distinct explanation as to what Hitler has to specifically do to be saved in Christ?

What does anyone have to do? Tell me what you did & i'll tell you what Hitler must do. Exactly the same. As long as your answer is Scriptural.

 

[2PhiloVoid]

What does anyone have to do? Tell me what you did & i'll tell you what Hitler must do. Exactly the same. As long as your answer is Scriptural.

Nice skirt you put on the issue, Clement. Again, I asked the question first; don't play games and try to turn it back on me and get out of your burden of proof here.

But, just to show you that I'm a guy with some integrity, I'll do your own work for you. Here's a Universalist article.

I perused the article, but even there, I find no direct, clear and distinct answer to my question. I do see is a lot of skirting the issue and subscribing to inferences and unproven assumptions. It's almost as if universalists don't really HAVE an answer to the "Hitler Question." Hmmmmm..........

 

[Dartman]

The first 11 verses of 1 Cor 3 establish the context is, teachers converting believers by God "giving the increase". The "gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay and stubble" are those a teacher converts, with God's help. Paul is explaining that the failure of those we have helped come to God, doesn't prevent us from being saved.

It's the reverse of Paul's message in 1 Cor 9:27 But I keep under my body, and bring it into subjection: lest that by any means, when I have preached to others, I myself should be a castaway.
It is entirely possible for a teacher to preach to others, and still lose their OWN salvation!

Yes, it is!

Compare 1 Cor.3:17, loss of salvation.

But even they shall be saved, as the immediate context indicates (v.15):

15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.
16 Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?
17 If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are.

The "work" discussed are the believers a teacher produces. Those believers vary in their own productivity;

Matt 13:19-23 When any one heareth the word of the kingdom, and understandeth it not, then cometh the wicked one, and catcheth away that which was sown in his heart. This is he which received seed by the way side.

This category is roughly equivalent to "stubble" in 1 Cor 3:12

20 But he that received the seed into stony places, the same is he that heareth the word, and anon with joy receiveth it; 21 Yet hath he not root in himself, but dureth for a while: for when tribulation or persecution ariseth because of the word, by and by he is offended.
"hay"
22 He also that received seed among the thorns is he that heareth the word; and the care of this world, and the deceitfulness of riches, choke the word, and he becometh unfruitful.
"wood"
23 But he that received seed into the good ground is he that heareth the word, and understandeth it; which also beareth fruit, and bringeth forth,
some an hundredfold ... "gold' some sixty .... "silver"..... some thirty ..."precious stones".

 

[ClementofA]

Nice skirt you put on the issue, Clement. Again, I asked the question first; don't play games and try to turn it back on me and get out of your burden of proof here.

But, just to show you that I'm a guy with some integrity, I'll do your own work for you. Here's a Universalist article.

I perused the article, but even there, I find no direct, clear and distinct answer to my question. I do see a lot of skirting the issue and subscribing to inferences and unproven assumptions. It's almost as if universalists don't really HAVE an answer to the "Hitler Question." Hmmmmm..........

I don't understand your curiosity with the subject.

Do you feel you deserve to be saved?

Do you feel Hitler doesn't deserve to be saved should he do what you did to be saved?

What about the Pharisees?

How about Satan?

Is it God is too weak to save? Or does His love has an expiry date like milk?

What do you Scriptures say? Has God revealed the truth to you?

https://www.tentmaker.org/books/hope_beyond_hell.pdf