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Featured Universalism Was Condemned and Defeated In 553 A.D. At The The Fifth Ecumenical Council

Discussion in 'Controversial Christian Theology' started by Jude1:3Contendforthefaith, Aug 13, 2019.

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  1. Jude1:3Contendforthefaith

    Jude1:3Contendforthefaith Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Universalism, Similar Ideas and The Concept of evil men / the devil / demons only suffering in Hell temporally is condemned by The Council.


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  2. Jude1:3Contendforthefaith

    Jude1:3Contendforthefaith Well-Known Member Supporter

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    For "The Church" it is.


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  3. martymonster

    martymonster Veteran

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    Those who follow the teachings of men and the doctrines of demons, they are the ones who will find themselves facing the wrath of the Lamb.
     
  4. Jude1:3Contendforthefaith

    Jude1:3Contendforthefaith Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Heretical Doctrines like Universalism.


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  5. ☦Marius☦

    ☦Marius☦ Orthodox Hillbilly Supporter

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    Yes yes we all know who you are talking about. Mandatory anti traditionalists post.
     
  6. martymonster

    martymonster Veteran

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    Actually, I'm talking about a lot more people than you think.
     
  7. Stabat Mater

    Stabat Mater Jesus Christ conquers! Supporter

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    If we take a hard look at ourself. I believe its possible to determine if ones leaning closer to gnosticism or Arianism.
    I see peoples tendencies of either emphasizing Gods imminence or his transcendence.
    If I had to label myself I guess I'm closer to the gnostic heresy than Arianism.

    If one believes that theres a whole spectra between the two extremes, then one may honestly measure oneself. As far as Origins concerned even if it wasnt his school writing the most dreadful universialism, but Origin himself he's somewhat excused as he lived so early on.

    To be a heretic today is actually a lot worse as we have so much guidance from past teachers, scholars and great minds of the church.
    We have a far greater culpability than the heretics of the ancient church.
     
    Last edited: Aug 14, 2019
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  8. Michael Collum

    Michael Collum Everything began with a voice, use yours Supporter

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    The issue may have seemed resolved at the time, but no one cares about church councils after nicea anymore anyhoo. :sorry:
     
  9. hedrick

    hedrick Senior Veteran Supporter

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    The Emperor isn't a council. It's questionable that these anathemas actually came from the council. The council was convened to condemn Theodore, in the vain hope of reconciling some of his enemies.
     
  10. Jude1:3Contendforthefaith

    Jude1:3Contendforthefaith Well-Known Member Supporter

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    The Canons and Decrees of The Ecumenical Councils are Infallible.


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  11. Ignatius the Kiwi

    Ignatius the Kiwi Newbie

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    I agree that Universalism is false. It's hard for me to condemn Origen himself given his context and love for Christ he displayed in his life.
     
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  12. Jude1:3Contendforthefaith

    Jude1:3Contendforthefaith Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Yeah, I like a lot of his writings my self.

    It's kind of like that with Augustine for me also. I don't agree with everything he wrote, but some of it is good.


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  13. DamianWarS

    DamianWarS Follower of Isa Al Masih Supporter

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    Congratulations you've just estranged yourself from the rest of the group. if this was a conversation meant for "The Church" should it not be in The Ancient Way - Eastern Orthodox forum? I don't accept universalism either but if you're going to play with others this "us and them" routine isn't productive and it only works towards disunity. If you want a conversation about universalism then be prepared to talk about it rather than pretend it's not there because it's only the fake church anyway.
     
  14. DamianWarS

    DamianWarS Follower of Isa Al Masih Supporter

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    many only care about the creeds, not the politics so ignore the rest.
     
  15. hedrick

    hedrick Senior Veteran Supporter

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    The creeds came out of the politics, so this may not be such a good approach.

    This matters because sometimes you need to understand the context to understand what the creeds and canons mean. For a long time I thought I agreed with the 6th council (against the monothelites). While I agree that they were right to reject the monothelites, I'm no longer so sure I agree with the outcome. I originally thought that they were endorsing the understanding of Jesus as a true human being. I'm not longer sure that this is what they actually meant.
     
    Last edited: Aug 14, 2019
  16. nonaeroterraqueous

    nonaeroterraqueous Nonexistent Member

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    By what infallible source did you come to that conclusion?
     
  17. BNR32FAN

    BNR32FAN He’s a Way of life Supporter

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    It was refuted by Iranaeus in 170AD.

    1. what great things the Lord had done at His coming to save those who received Him, taking compassion upon them; while they keep silence with regard to His judgment; and all those things which shall come upon such as have heard His words, but done them not, and that it were better for them if they had not been born, Matthew 26:24 and that it shall be more tolerable for Sodom and Gomorrha in the judgment than for that city which did not receive the word of His disciples. Matthew 10:15


    2. For as, in the New Testament, that faith of men [to be placed] in God has been increased, receiving in addition [to what was already revealed] the Son of God, that man too might be a partaker of God; so is also our walk in life required to be more circumspect, when we are directed not merely to abstain from evil actions, but even from evil thoughts, and from idle words, and empty talk, and scurrilous language: thus also the punishment of those who do not believe the Word of God, and despise His advent, and are turned away backwards, is increased; being not merely temporal, but rendered also eternal. For to whomsoever the Lord shall say, Depart from me, you cursed, into everlasting fire, Matthew 25:41 these shall be damned for ever; and to whomsoever He shall say, Come, you blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you for eternity, Matthew 25:34 these do receive the kingdom for ever, and make constant advance in it; since there is one and the same God the Father, and His Word, who has been always present with the human race, by means indeed of various dispensations, and has wrought out many things, and saved from the beginning those who are saved, (for these are they who love God, and follow the Word of God according to the class to which they belong,) and has judged those who are judged, that is, those who forget God, and are blasphemous, and transgressors of His word.

    St Iranaeus 170AD Adversus Haereses Book 4 Chapter 28


    Man has received the knowledge of good and evil. It is good to obey God, and to believe in Him, and to keep His commandment, and this is the life of man; as not to obey God is evil, and this is his death. Since God, therefore, gave [to man] such mental power (magnanimitatem) man knew both the good of obedience and the evil of disobedience, that the eye of the mind, receiving experience of both, may with judgment make choice of the better things; and that he may never become indolent or neglectful of God's command; and learning by experience that it is an evil thing which deprives him of life, that is, disobedience to God, may never attempt it at all, but that, knowing that what preserves his life, namely, obedience to God, is good, he may diligently keep it with all earnestness. Wherefore he has also had a twofold experience, possessing knowledge of both kinds, that with discipline he may make choice of the better things. But how, if he had no knowledge of the contrary, could he have had instruction in that which is good? For there is thus a surer and an undoubted comprehension of matters submitted to us than the mere surmise arising from an opinion regarding them. For just as the tongue receives experience of sweet and bitter by means of tasting, and the eye discriminates between black and white by means of vision, and the ear recognises the distinctions of sounds by hearing; so also does the mind, receiving through the experience of both the knowledgeof what is good, become more tenacious of its preservation, by acting in obedience to God: in the first place, casting away, by means of repentance, disobedience, as being something disagreeable and nauseous; and afterwards coming to understand what it really is, that it is contrary to goodness and sweetness, so that the mind may never even attempt to taste disobedience to God. But if any one do shun the knowledge of both these kinds of things, and the twofold perception of knowledge, he unawares divests himself of the character of a human being.


    2. How, then, shall he be a God, who has not as yet been made a man? Or how can he be perfect who was but lately created? How, again, can he be immortal, who in his mortal nature did not obey his Maker? For it must be that you, at the outset, should hold the rank of a man, and then afterwards partake of the glory of God. For you did not make God, but God you. If, then, you are God's workmanship, await the hand of your Maker which creates everything in due time; in due time as far as you are concerned, whose creation is being carried out. Offer to Him your heart in a soft and tractable state, and preserve the form in which the Creator has fashioned you, having moisture in yourself, lest, by becoming hardened, you lose the impressions of His fingers. But by preserving the framework you shall ascend to that which is perfect, for the moist clay which is in you is hidden [there] by the workmanship of God. His hand fashioned your substance; He will cover you over [too] within and without with pure gold and silver, and He will adorn you to such a degree, that even the King Himself shall have pleasure in your beauty. But if you, being obstinately hardened, reject the operation of His skill, and show yourself ungrateful towards Him, because you were created a [mere] man, by becoming thus ungrateful to God, you have at once lost both His workmanship and life. For creation is an attribute of the goodness of God but to be created is that of human nature. If then, you shall deliver up to Him what is yours, that is, faith towards Him and subjection, you shall receive His handiwork, and shall be a perfect work of God.


    3. If, however, you will not believe in Him, and will flee from His hands, the cause of imperfection shall be in you who did not obey, but not in Him who called [you]. For He commissioned [messengers] to call people to the marriage, but they who did not obey Him deprived themselves of the royal supper. Matthew 22:3, etc. The skill of God, therefore, is not defective, for He has power of the stones to raise up children to Abraham; Matthew 3:9but the man who does not obtain it is the causeto himself of his own imperfection. Nor, [in like manner], does the light fail because of those who have blinded themselves; but while it remains the same as ever, those who are [thus] blinded are involved in darkness through their own fault. The light does never enslave any one by necessity; nor, again, does God exercise compulsion upon any one unwilling to accept the exercise of His skill. Those persons, therefore, who have apostatized from the light given by the Father, and transgressed the law of liberty, have done so through their own fault, since they have been created free agents, and possessed of power over themselves.


    4. But God, foreknowing all things, prepared fit habitations for both, kindly conferring that light which they desire on those who seek after the light of incorruption, and resort to it; but for the despisers and mockers who avoid and turn themselves away from this light, and who do, as it were, blind themselves, He has prepared darkness suitable to persons who oppose the light, and He has inflicted an appropriate punishment upon those who try to avoid being subject to Him. Submission to God is eternalrest, so that they who shun the light have a place worthy of their flight; and those who fly from eternal rest, have a habitation in accordance with their fleeing. Now, since all good things are with God, they who by their own determination fly from God, do defraud themselves of all good things; and having been [thus] defrauded of all good things with respect to God, they shall consequently fall under the just judgment of God. For those persons who shun rest shall justly incur punishment, and those who avoid the light shall justly dwell in darkness. For as in the case of this temporal light, those who shun it do deliver themselves over to darkness, so that they do themselves become the cause to themselves that they are destitute of light, and do inhabit darkness; and, as I have already observed, the light is not the cause of such an [unhappy] condition of existence to them; so those who fly from the eternal light of God, which contains in itself all good things, are themselves the cause to themselves of their inhabiting eternal darkness, destitute of all good things, having become to themselves the cause of [their consignment to] an abode of that nature.

    St Iranaeus 170AD Adversus Haereses Book 4 Chapter 39
     
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  18. Lazarus Short

    Lazarus Short Well-Known Member

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    What is your support for that statement? Was it another decree of the Ecumenical Councils?

    I never paid ANY attention to such things, having been raised as a Southern Baptist. That being so, I was taught that the Bible was the reference standard for Truth. In time, I encountered the Universalist message, and I investigated my KJV from one end to the other to see what was true. In the matters we are discussing in this thread, I found the KJV to be faulty, and I have moved on to better translations. YMMV.
     
  19. A Shield of Turquoise

    A Shield of Turquoise New Member

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    The condemnation refers to "the monstrous restoration" that follows from the pre-existence of souls. This has nothing to do with universalism as expressed by church fathers like St Gregory of Nyssa.

    Also, the Fifth council contradicts the Council of Chalcedon re: the letter of Ibas, so obviously these councils are not infallible.
     
  20. BNR32FAN

    BNR32FAN He’s a Way of life Supporter

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    I’m not familiar with this version and I can’t find it anywhere. Is YMMV a typo? I was trying to see how this version translates Matthew 16:18.
     
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