Universalism Was Condemned and Defeated In 553 A.D. At The The Fifth Ecumenical Council

[FineLinen]

I agree that God's justice isn't about getting even. But I think this post has bad exegesis of Rev 22:21. That passage is from what I'd call the epilog to the book. The chronology is a bit hard to be sure about. But it is probably talking about an opportunity in this life.

I think the vision at the beginning of chap 22 does indeed suggest a happy ending. But I wouldn't cite 22:21 this way.

Dear Hedrick: Our Father is not the God of opportunity! His Plan is entirely focused in Himself. It begins in Him, it ends in Him as the ta panta.

From Him the all, thru Him the all, to Him the all.

 

[FineLinen]

“This is the God of the gospel of grace. A God who, out of love for us, sent the only Son He ever had wrapped in our skin. He learned how to walk, stumbled and fell, cried for His milk, sweated blood in the night, was lashed with a whip and showered with spit, was fixed to a cross, and died whispering forgiveness on us all.”

- Brennan Manning, The Ragamuffin Gospel: Good News for the Bedraggled, Beat-Up, and Burnt out-

Sin vs Grace

"Sin disturbed relations with God in everything and everyone, but the extent of the disturbance was not clear until God spelled it out in detail to Moses. So death, this huge abyss separating us from God, dominated the landscape from Adam to Moses. Even those who didn't sin precisely as Adam did by disobeying a specific command of God still had to experience this termination of life, this separation from God. But Adam, who got us into this, also points ahead to the One who will get us out of it.

Yet the rescuing gift is not exactly parallel to the death-dealing sin.

If one man's sin put crowds of people at the dead-end abyss of separation from God, just think what God's gift poured through one man, Jesus Christ, will do!

There's no comparison between that death-dealing sin and this generous, life-giving gift.

The verdict on that one sin was the death sentence; the verdict on the many sins that followed was this wonderful life sentence. If death got the upper hand through one man's wrongdoing, can you imagine the breathtaking recovery life makes, sovereign life, in those who grasp with both hands this wildly extravagant life-gift, this grand setting-everything-right, that the one man Jesus Christ provides?

Here it is in a nutshell: Just as one person did it wrong and got us in all this trouble with sin and death, another person did it right and got us out of it. But more than just getting us out of trouble, he got us into life!

One man said no to God and put many people in the wrong; one man said yes to God and put many in the right.

All that passing laws against sin did was produce more lawbreakers. But sin didn't, and doesn't, have a chance in competition with the aggressive forgiveness we call grace. When it's sin versus grace, grace wins hands down.

All sin can do is threaten us with death, and that's the end of it. Grace, because God is putting everything together again through the Messiah, invites us into life - a life that goes on and on and on, world without end." -The Message-

 

[Shrewd Manager]

I agree that God's justice isn't about getting even. But I think this post has bad exegesis of Rev 22:21. That passage is from what I'd call the epilog to the book. The chronology is a bit hard to be sure about. But it is probably talking about an opportunity in this life.

I think the vision at the beginning of chap 22 does indeed suggest a happy ending. But I wouldn't cite 22:21 this way.

My friend, you can't just wish it away. The prodigal brother, the grumpy day labourers and the whiney disciples who said they forsook all to follow Jesus - all felt they got short-changed. But what did our Lord tell them?

Look, conditionalism has some truth in it: SIN will be annihilated, and the sinner reborn as a new man in Christ. Divine destruction is always followed by a restorative miracle. So we see the destiny of the nations from their inception in Noah's sons, through the promise of the Abrahamic covenant sealed at Calvary, ultimately come to fruition and delivered (on time and on budget lol) - they get baptised in fire (20:9&14) and invited to enter through the open gates to worship at the throne (21:26) and receive healing from the leaves of the tree of life (22:2).

Leading inexorably to the final blessing and conclusion: And the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be upon all. So there's no need for any 'picking through entrails' here, it's all a coherent and consistent narrative. Greatest story ever told, what a consummation! Don't be afraid to enjoy it.

 

[FineLinen]

My friend, you can't just wish it away. The prodigal brother, the grumpy day labourers and the whiney disciples who said they forsook all to follow Jesus - all felt they got short-changed. But what did our Lord tell them?

Look, conditionalism has some truth in it: SIN will be annihilated, and the sinner reborn as a new man in Christ. Divine destruction is always followed by a restorative miracle. So we see the destiny of the nations from their inception in Noah's sons, through the promise of the Abrahamic covenant sealed at Calvary, ultimately come to fruition and delivered (on time and on budget lol) - they get baptised in fire (20:9&14) and invited to enter through the open gates to worship at the throne (21:26) and receive healing from the leaves of the tree of life (22:2).

Leading inexorably to the final blessing and conclusion: And the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be upon all. So there's no need for any 'picking through entrails' here, it's all a coherent and consistent narrative. Greatest story ever told, what a consummation! Don't be afraid to enjoy it.

Dear Shrewd: What wonderful expressions are flowing from Australia! Is it possible Joy to the world is exactly that? The curse done away in a glorious Consummation!

"No more let sin and sorrow grow, nor thorns infest the ground, He comes to make His blessings flow" >>>>

"Far as the curse is found"

Have we are listening ears on?

Our Lord meets despair with triumph, death with metamorhoo as He lifts crawling creatures of earth into winged visions of transformation.

Yes Sir Isaac, He comes to make His blessings flow>>>

Far as the curse is found!

The beloved disciple John saw it, brother Watts, no more death, no more tears, no more sorrow, no more curse: all swallowed up in the triumphant Unlimited Christ of Reconciliation!

 

[FineLinen]

Yes, brother Manning, the message of the Unlimited Christ who ministers hope to the hopeless is true! His message still sounds today in GOOD NEWS which shall be to the radical ALL of us who are>>>

Bedraggled, Beat-Up, and Burnt out

 

[hedrick]

My friend, you can't just wish it away. The prodigal brother, the grumpy day labourers and the whiney disciples who said they forsook all to follow Jesus - all felt they got short-changed. But what did our Lord tell them?

If you're going to cite the Bible, you need first to understand what the texts mean. You can pile up all the evidence you like for universalism. I agree with much of it. But that doesn't make 22:17 refer to a second chance for the people in the lake of fire.

The reason the Rev is so difficult to use for doctrine is that its images and terms seems to be based on a Jewish background of which our knowledge is imperfect. The obvious meaning of second death is simply destruction. Most evidence suggests that this is what the meaning in the Jewish tradition was as well, though this evidence is not unambiguous.

Paul, and one passage in John, on the other hand, seem to envision that everyone will be saved, after the powers that enslave them are destroyed.

Mark and Luke don't seem to have any particular position. Matthew might envision everlasting punishment. That's certainly how most readers understand it. But I don't think that's unambiguous.

Untangling this isn't helped by the fact that interpreters tend to have strong bias on the subject. The most obvious example is the Hermeneia commentary on John, which says of 12:32: "The word “all” is here an error. Jesus will draw “only” those to him whom the Father has given him and to whom he imparts the spirit as the one exalted to God." The Logos commentary draws the same conclusion, but without calling "all" an error. In my view the passage itself shows no sign of this limitation of all (particularly if you follow P66, which reads "all things"). Surprisingly, Brown's detailed commentary in the Anchor Bible series simply ignores the question of what the passage means.

But universalist interpreters are no better. They have this tendency to redefine words, particularly eternal.

 

[Jude1:3Contendforthefaith]

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[FineLinen]

If you're going to cite the Bible, you need first to understand what the texts mean. You can pile up all the evidence you like for universalism. I agree with much of it. But that doesn't make 22:17 refer to a second chance for the people in the lake of fire.

The reason the Rev is so difficult to use for doctrine is that its images and terms seems to be based on a Jewish background of which our knowledge is imperfect. The obvious meaning of second death is simply destruction. Most evidence suggests that this is what the meaning in the Jewish tradition was as well, though this evidence is not unambiguous.

Paul, and one passage in John, on the other hand, seem to envision that everyone will be saved, after the powers that enslave them are destroyed.

Mark and Luke don't seem to have any particular position. Matthew might envision everlasting punishment. That's certainly how most readers understand it. But I don't think that's unambiguous.

Untangling this isn't helped by the fact that interpreters tend to have strong bias on the subject. The most obvious example is the Hermeneia commentary on John, which says of 12:32: "The word “all” is here an error." The Logos commentary takes a more typical view, that all always has an implicit qualification of all with faith, although the passage itself shows no sign of it (particularly if you follow P66, which reads "all things"). Surprisingly, Brown's detailed commentary in the Anchor Bible series simply ignores the question of what the passage means.

Dear Hedrick: Our Father does not run a Heavenly casino of chance!

No 1st chance, no second, no third: NO CHANCE!

 

[Jude1:3Contendforthefaith]

This is what happens when everyone interprets The Holy Scriptures themselves and "Does Their Own Thing".

Heresies and Damnable Lies Arise.



.

 

[Jude1:3Contendforthefaith]

Gal 1:9 As we have said before, so I now say again: If anyone preaches to you any gospel other than the one you received, let him be anathema!

Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived. Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor homosexuals, nor sodomites, nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners will inherit the kingdom of God.
• 1 Corinthians 6:9-10

Homosexuality and the Anglican Communion - Wikipedia



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[Mathetes66]

EARLY Church Fathers Confirming Eternal Judgments & Punishment & the Heresy of Universalism

Ignatius of Antioch (Letter to the Ephesians 16:1-2, 110 AD) ''Corrupters of families will not inherit the kingdom of God. And if they who do these things according to the flesh suffer death, how much more if a man corrupt by evil reaching the faith of God for the sake of which Jesus Christ was crucified? A man become so foul will depart into unquenchable fire & so will ANYONE WHO LISTENS TO HIM.

Clement of Rome (150AD)

2Clem 4:4 And we ought not rather to fear men but God. 4:5 For this cause, if ye do these things, the Lord said, Though ye be gathered together with Me in My bosom & do not My commandments, I will cast you away & will say unto you, Depart from Me, I know you not, whence ye are, ye workers of iniquity.

2Clem 5:1 Wherefore, brethren, let us forsake our sojourn in this world & do the will of Him that called us & let us not be afraid to depart out of this world.

2Clem 5:2 For the Lord saith, Ye shall be as lambs in the midst of wolves. 5:3 But Peter answered & said unto Him, What then, if the wolves
should tear the lambs?

2Clem 5:4 Jesus said unto Peter, Let not the lambs fear the wolves after they are dead & ye also, fear ye not them that kill you & are not able to do anything to you; but fear Him that after ye are dead hath power over soul AND body, to cast them into the Gehenna of fire.

2Clem 5:6 What then can we do to obtain them, but walk in holiness and
righteousness, and consider these worldly things as alien to us &
not desire them? 5:7 For when we desire to obtain these things we fall away from the righteous path.

2Clem 6:1 But the Lord saith, No servant can serve two masters. If we desire to serve both God and mammon, it is unprofitable for us: 6:2
For what advantage is it, if a man gain the whole world & forfeit
his soul? 6:3 Now this age AND the future are two enemies.

2Clem 6:4 The one speaketh of adultery & defilement & avarice & deceit, but the other biddeth farewell to these. 6:5 We cannot therefore be friends of the two, but must bid farewell to the one & hold companionship with the other.

2Clem 6:6 Let us consider that it is better to hate the things which are here, because they are mean & for a short time & perishable & to
love the things which are there, for they are good & imperishable.

2Clem 6:7 For, if we do the will of Christ, we shall find rest; but if
otherwise, then NOTHING SHALL DELIVER US FROM ETERNAL PUNISHMENT, if we should disobey His commandments. 6:8 And the scripture also saith in Ezekiel, Though Noah & Job & Daniel should rise up, they shall NOT deliver their children in the captivity.

2Clem 6:9 But if even such righteous men as these cannot by their righteous deeds deliver their children, with what confidence shall we, if we
keep not our baptism pure & undefiled, enter into the kingdom of
God? Or who shall be our advocate, unless we be found having holy
& righteous works?

2Clem 7:5 What think ye? What shall be done to him that hath dealt corruptly with the contest of incorruption? 7:6 For as concerning them that have not kept the seal, He saith, Their worm shall not die & their fire shall not be quenched & they shall be for a spectacle unto all flesh.

2Clem 8:1
While we are on earth then, let us repent: for we are clay under the
craftsman's hand. 8:2 For in like manner as the potter, if he be making a vessel & it get twisted or crushed in his hands, reshapeth it again; but if he
have once put it into the fiery oven, he shall no longer mend it. So
also let us, while we are in this world, repent with our whole heart
of the evil things which we have done in the flesh, that we may be
saved by the Lord, while we have YET TIME for repentance.

2Clem 8:3 For after that we have departed out of the world, we can NO MORE MAKE CONFESSION THERE OR REPENT ANY MORE.

In other words, Clement is saying that you must make the decision to believe in Christ while you are ALIVE on this earth. Afterwards it is too late.

Justin Martyr (First Apology 12; 150 AD)
''No more is it possible for the evil doer, the avaricious & the treacherous to hide from God than it is for the virtuous. Every man will receive the eternal punishment or reward which his actions deserve. Indeed, if all men recognized this, no one would choose evil even for a short time, knowing he would incur the eternal sentence of Fire. On the contrary, he would take every means to control himself & to adorn himself in virtue, so that he might obtain the good gifts of God & escape the punishments.''

Justin Martyr (First Apology of Justin, Chap. VIII, 150 AD)
''And we say that the same thing will be done, but at the hand of Christ, & upon the wicked in the same bodies UNITED AGAIN to their spirits which are now to undergo EVERLASTING punishment & NOT only as Plato said, for a period of a 1000 years. And if ANYONE says that this is incredible or impossible, this error of ours is one which concerns ourselves only & no other person, so long as you cannot convict us of any harm.'' (Justin is clear in stating that the punishment is eternal & not for a temporary amount of time.)

Justin Martyr (The First Apology of Justin, Chap. LVII, 150AD)
Nor can the devils persuade men that there will be no conflagration for the punishment of the wicked; as they were unable to effect that Christ should be hidden after He came. But if they believe that there is nothing after death, but declare that those who die pass into insensibility, then they become our benefactors when they set us free from sufferings & necessities of this life & prove themselves to be wicked & inhuman & bigoted. For they kill us with no intention of delivering us, but cut us off that we may be deprived of life & pleasure.

Justin Martyr (First Apology of Justin, Chap. XXVIII, 150 AD)
''For among us the prince of the wicked spirits is called the serpent & Satan, & the devil, as you can learn by looking into our writings. And that he would be sent into the fire with his host & the men who follow him & would be punished for an endless duration, Christ foretold.''

150 AD Justin Martyr: "The unjust & intemperate shall be punished in eternal fire." (The 2nd Apology of Justin For The Christians Addressed to the Roman Senate, Chap. I)

150 AD Justin Martyr: "Assuring him that there shall be punishment in eternal fire inflicted upon those who do not live temperately & comfortably to right reason." (The 2nd Apology of Justin for the Christians Addressed to the Roman Senate. Chap. II)

150 AD Justin Martyr: "And they, having been shut up in eternal fire, shall suffer their just punishment & penalty. For if they are even now overthrown by men through the name of Jesus Christ, this is an intimation of the punishment in eternal fire which is to be inflicted on themselves & those who serve them. For thus did both all the prophets foretell & our own teacher Jesus teach." (The 2nd Apology of Justin for the Christians Addressed to the Roman Senate, Chap. VIII)

150 AD Justin Martyr: "And that no one may say what is said by those who are deemed philosophers, that our assertions that the wicked are punished in eternal fire are big words & bugbears & that we wish men to live virtuously through fear & not because such a life is good & pleasant. I will briefly reply to this, that if this be NOT so, God does not exist; or, if He exists, He cares not for men & neither virtue nor vice is anything & as we said before, lawgivers unjustly punish those who transgress good commandments." (The 2nd Apology of Justin for the Christians Addressed to the Roman Senate, Chap. IX)

150 AD Justin Martyr: "Trypho," says he, "I am called & I am a Hebrew of the circumcision. They affirm that the same things shall always happen & further, that I & you shall again live in like manner, having become neither better men nor worse. But there are some others, who, having supposed the soul to be immortal & immaterial, believe that though they have committed evil they will not suffer punishment (for that which is immaterial is insensible) & that the soul, in consequence of its immortality, needs nothing from God." (Dialogue of Justin, Philosopher & Martyr, with Trypho, A Jew, Chap. I)

150 AD Justin Martyr: "When some are sent to be punished unceasingly into judgment & condemnation of fire; but others shall exist in freedom from suffering, from corruption & from grief & in immortality." (Dialogue of Justin, Philosopher & Martyr with Trypho, A Jew, Chap. XLV)

150 AD Justin Martyr: "Here Plato seems to me to have learnt from the prophets not only the doctrine of the judgment, but also of the resurrection, which the Greeks refuse to believe. For his saying that the soul is judged along with the body, proves nothing more clearly than that he believed the doctrine of the resurrection. Since how could Ardiaeus & the rest have undergone such punishment in Hades, had they left on earth the body, with its head, hands, feet & skin? For certainly they will never say that the soul has a head & hands & feet & skin."

"But Plato, having fallen in with the testimonies of the prophets in Egypt, & having accepted what they teach concerning the resurrection of the body, teaches that the soul is judged in company with the body." (Justin's Hortatory Address To The Greeks, Chap. XXVII)

155 AD The Martyrdom of Polycarp "Fixing their minds on the grace of Christ, [the martyrs] despised worldly tortures & purchased eternal life with but a single hour. To them, the fire of their cruel torturers was cold. They kept before their eyes their escape from the eternal & unquenchable fire" (Martyrdom of Polycarp 2:3).

160 AD Mathetes "When you know what is the true life, that of heaven; when you despise the merely apparent death, which is temporal; when you fear the death which is real & which is reserved for those who will be condemned to the everlasting fire, the fire which will punish even to the end those who are delivered to it, then you will condemn the deceit & error of the world" (Letter to Diognetus 10:7).

177 AD Athenagoras "[W]e [Christians] are persuaded that when we are removed from this present life we shall live another life, better than the present one...Then we shall abide near God & with God, changeless & free from suffering in the soul...or if we fall with the rest [of mankind], a worse one & in fire; for God has NOT made us as sheep or beasts of burden, a mere incidental work, that we should perish & be annihilated" (Plea for the Christians 31).

181 AD Theophilus of Antioch "Give studious attention to the prophetic writings [the Bible] & they will lead you on a clearer path to escape the eternal punishments & to obtain the eternal good things of God...[God] will examine everything & will judge justly, granting recompense to each according to merit. To those who seek immortality by the patient exercise of good works, he will give everlasting life, joy, peace, rest & all good things...For the unbelievers & for the contemptuous & for those who do not submit to the truth but assent to iniquity, when they have been involved in adulteries & fornications & homosexualities & avarice & in lawless idolatries, there will be wrath & indignation, tribulation & anguish & in the end, such men as these will be detained in everlasting fire" (To Autolycus 1:14).

Irenaeus of Lyons (Against Heresies, 4:28:2, 189 AD)
''The penalty increases for those who do not believe the word of God & despise His coming. It is not merely temporal, but eternal. To whomever the Lord shall say,'Depart from me, accursed ones, into the everlasting fire,'' they will be damned forever.''

The claims of universalists that the Catholic church originated the teaching of eternal condemnation are shown to be false. From the beginning of the church, eternal condemnation was taught in accordance with the Word of God, as shown by the very quotations of the church fathers themselves.

Understand this. Universal reconciliation is NOT universal salvation. Christ died for all, but many will reject the offer of salvation. Reconciliation simply means that Christ died for every single sin that will ever be commited in the human race. He paid the penalty for every last sin that will ever be committed. That means that sin is not an issue in aqquiring salvation & sin is not an issue in maintaining salvation. But where the barrier of sin once stood between God & man, there is now an open door to salvation through which whosoever may walk through faith in Christ. God requires a volitional decision to believe in Christ as the condition for salvation. And as mentioned by Clement of Rome, (refer to the above quotation), that decision must be made this side of death.

 

[FineLinen]

Dear Irenaeus of Lyons : I hate to disclose this to such an old feller, but damnation is NOT a Scriptural word!

NOT!

Krisis however is and means judgment.

Listen up Irenaeus!

His judgments ARE life

 

[Saint Steven]

The verdict on that one sin was the death sentence; the verdict on the many sins that followed was this wonderful life sentence. If death got the upper hand through one man's wrongdoing, can you imagine the breathtaking recovery life makes, sovereign life, in those who grasp with both hands this wildly extravagant life-gift, this grand setting-everything-right, that the one man Jesus Christ provides?

Here it is in a nutshell: Just as one person did it wrong and got us in all this trouble with sin and death, another person did it right and got us out of it. But more than just getting us out of trouble, he got us into life!

One man said no to God and put many people in the wrong; one man said yes to God and put many in the right.

Life sentence. I love it. Well put. (bolded above)

God replaces our death sentence with a life sentence. Priceless. Grace so rich and free.
But Orthodoxy says: "Anathema! You must pay."

Isaiah 55:1-2
“Come, all you who are thirsty,
come to the waters;
and you who have no money,
come, buy and eat!
Come, buy wine and milk
without money and without cost.
2 Why spend money on what is not bread,
and your labor on what does not satisfy?
Listen, listen to me, and eat what is good,
and you will delight in the richest of fare.

 

[Saint Steven]

In other words, Clement is saying that you must make the decision to believe in Christ while you are ALIVE on this earth. Afterwards it is too late.

I guess he didn't get the memo.

Christ went to the realm of the dead and preached to the imprisoned spirits there. And he took captivity captive when he ascended into heaven. But you say it could not happen again? Why not? Because the Damnationists declare their evil opinion? And confirm it by giving us a biased translation of the Bible. Lying scribes! Grace awaits their repentance.

 

[Shrewd Manager]

And as mentioned by Clement of Rome, (refer to the above quotation), that decision must be made this side of death.

It was awfully nice of God to send Jesus to die a painful and humiliating death so that the sins of humanity could be paid for...just to reveal a far worse fate for carnal man, whose quantum of righteousness adds up to a sticky mess of filthy old menstrual rags! Loathsome spider that he is.

They shall not taste divine mercy who in this life reject the cross? So the young rape victim leaves a suicide note professing unbelief in Jesus - hellbound! The army hero who dies unsaved while singlehandly holding back the enemy to save his platoon - hellbound! Do we find in hell a collection from the sad loser to the noble hero, All convicted for the same unforgivable crime! To be awoken from their slumber just to have Christ paraded before them before they're despatched to the mega-human bbq and grill (Gabriel, fetch the tongs would you.)

It's so patently ridiculous. Come on, THINK, use your God-given ratio to realise that you've been on a diet of the leaven of the Pharisees. Be not deceived. Even God's foolishness is wiser than man.

If you're right, then you can preen yourself while you flip me the bird as I head 'downstairs'. Hey, your neighbours need help down here, won't you get off your cloud and help me sling the poor brutalised wretches on the donkey. We can take them to the Inn on the hill to recover, I hear you have a room there. Can you help?

 

[Shrewd Manager]

Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor homosexuals, nor sodomites, nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners will inherit the kingdom of God.

If you're a 'turn or burn' kind of evangelist, then you'd be hellbound as an 'extortioner', cause you're obtaining a confession of faith under threat of eternal torture.

Truly I tell you, I'm tempted to take a test case to the secular courts to indict the 'turn or burn' gospel as unconscionable conduct contrary to consumer law. This 'buy our product or burn in hell, trust me I'm an agent of the arsonist who sells fire insurance', should really be outlawed even against heathen standards of common decency!

 

[JCFantasy23]

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