Universalism and Particular Redemption

[Mark Quayle]

The church has always taught by grace through faith, as the foundation, the beginning of a journey to salvation. Never faith alone. So the church taught at Trent:

"...none of those things that precede justification, whether faith or works, merit the grace of justification."

It's all grace, and yet grace thast can be resisted. It's quite evident from Genesis through all of His dealings with man that God does not force or cause man to do the right thing; He wants us to want it too, and to realize that the only way to obtain it is through Him, not of ourselves. Otherwise all the evil that man has experienced down through the centuries would be purely needless and gratuitous. Instead evil is the result of man opposing God's will, and God allowing it for a season, for His good purposes while He patiently waits for us to come to our senses and respond to His grace while turning away from the evil that causes so much harm to ourselves and others- and earns us death.

THE Church? Trent was RC. What gives?

Anyhow, the part you quote is accurate enough, if not precise, and, of course, it is self-contradictory to say that something (anything) can "merit" grace.

But what you quoted doesn't say that Grace through faith is only the beginning of a journey to salvation. One is saved, or one is not. The only way there is a "journey to salvation" is to say that one is not saved until after death.

 

[fhansen]

Not at all —it is me and what you posted. The quotes from the Catholic Catechism you posted demonstrate pretty plainly, that there is a lot of philosophical thinking not derived directly from the Bible. It almost reads like they had to come up with something in order to be the authority.

I meant that without the historic understanding of the church, based as it is on her lived experience in conjunction with the written Word which, itself, is part of that experience, then understanding that Word is a matter of private interpretation.

As far as the catechism is concerned what you’re hearing is wisdom, is the gospel explicated, which is what we all endeavor to do on these forums. That understanding is gleaned from centuries of human exposure to the gospel with numbers of saints and thinkers and theologians and regular folk contributing their own experience of that light and then the church condensing out relevant truths from it all. It’s a living faith that's understood increasingly better as we struggle to live and to define it.

 

[fhansen]

THE Church? Trent was RC. What gives?

However you want to look at it the Council of Trent's teachings were consistent with the those of the historic church.

Anyhow, the part you quote is accurate enough, if not precise, and, of course, it is self-contradictory to say that something (anything) can "merit" grace.

The church teaches that nothing we do merits grace, or eternal life, or anything-we don't even exist apart from God and He certainly doesn't need us- and yet that God nonetheless has created man such that what we do, how we respond to His grace, counts. So, for example:

"To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life." Rom 2:7

"When you were slaves to sin, you were free from the control of righteousness. What benefit did you reap at that time from the things you are now ashamed of? Those things result in death! But now that you have been set free from sin and have become slaves of God, the benefit you reap leads to holiness, and the result is eternal life. For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord." Rom 6:20-23

"Therefore, brothers and sisters, we have an obligation—but it is not to the flesh, to live according to it. For if you live according to the flesh, you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the misdeeds of the body, you will live." Rom 8:12-13

More from the catechism, on "merit" in this case:

"You are glorified in the assembly of your Holy Ones, for in crowning their merits you are crowning your own gifts." Augustine

2007 With regard to God, there is no strict right to any merit on the part of man. Between God and us there is an immeasurable inequality, for we have received everything from him, our Creator.

2008 The merit of man before God in the Christian life arises from the fact that God has freely chosen to associate man with the work of his grace. The fatherly action of God is first on his own initiative, and then follows man's free acting through his collaboration, so that the merit of good works is to be attributed in the first place to the grace of God, then to the faithful. Man's merit, moreover, itself is due to God, for his good actions proceed in Christ, from the predispositions and assistance given by the Holy Spirit.

2009 Filial adoption, in making us partakers by grace in the divine nature, can bestow true merit on us as a result of God's gratuitous justice. This is our right by grace, the full right of love, making us "co-heirs" with Christ and worthy of obtaining "the promised inheritance of eternal life."60 The merits of our good works are gifts of the divine goodness.61 "Grace has gone before us; now we are given what is due. . . . Our merits are God's gifts."62

2010 Since the initiative belongs to God in the order of grace, no one can merit the initial grace of forgiveness and justification, at the beginning of conversion. Moved by the Holy Spirit and by charity, we can then merit for ourselves and for others the graces needed for our sanctification, for the increase of grace and charity, and for the attainment of eternal life. Even temporal goods like health and friendship can be merited in accordance with God's wisdom. These graces and goods are the object of Christian prayer. Prayer attends to the grace we need for meritorious actions.

2011 The charity of Christ is the source in us of all our merits before God. Grace, by uniting us to Christ in active love, ensures the supernatural quality of our acts and consequently their merit before God and before men. The saints have always had a lively awareness that their merits were pure grace.

"After earth's exile, I hope to go and enjoy you in the fatherland, but I do not want to lay up merits for heaven. I want to work for your love alone. . . . In the evening of this life, I shall appear before you with empty hands, for I do not ask you, Lord, to count my works. All our justice is blemished in your eyes. I wish, then, to be clothed in your own justice and to receive from your love the eternal possession of yourself."63

Man's main job is to get on board with God, and remain on board, following Him and His will daily to the best extent we can, and getting back on board if we slip off. He'll always work to keep us there but still will simply not force that issue at the end of the day.

But what you quoted doesn't say that Grace through faith is only the beginning of a journey to salvation. One is saved, or one is not. The only way there is a "journey to salvation" is to say that one is not saved until after death.

As Scripture affirms in different places, we're saved, being, saved, and will be saved. Either way we work our our salvation, we make our calling and election sure. It ain't over till God gives His judgment. The idea that we're saved all at once, with no concern about compromising and losing our justified state, is a wholly novel notion.

 

[fhansen]

Notice how easy it is to lapse into the vague, poetic sounding, Arminian-style thinking. It reads like a Christian meme on Facebook.

I haven’t read a great deal of poetry but maybe you should-since I at least know that nothing I wrote sounds like much more than a rather practical understanding of how things work in the faith. You simply aren’t particularly disposed towards the fuller truth at this point and so reach to diversions and excuses for failing to grasp it.

You left out of your reference to "work out your salvation", the phrase "with fear and trembling," and a Reformed favorite, "for it is God who works in you both to will and to do according to his good pleasure". This does not at all say that man can work to accomplish his redemption. It means that whoever is saved must work accordingly.

What you fail to understand is that it’s both/and, a cooperative effort, not because God needs man’s cooperation for anything but simply because He desires it-for our own highest good. Again…and again…and again, He wouldn’t bother putting man in this pigsty of a world, relatively speaking, alienated from Him with centuries of awful human experiences of evil stemming from the awful treatment of one human by another, if not for the benefit, over time, that such evil can bestow upon us: that of our learning to hate it so that we might be all the more easily persuaded to shun it and, like prodigals, run to the true Good when He calls. Otherwise we’re back to the puppet show, regardless of any desire to protest against the concept-and evil being gratuitously caused on God’s part.

And we are told plainly, elsewhere, (Eph 2:8) that Salvation, Grace and Faith is not of works.

Grace and faith, or more accurately grace, the source of faith and any other gifts, can always be resisted. That ability to say “no” to God is the only reason that evil can exist, and the only reason that man needs revelation, the gospel, so that he can know what his obligations towards God are. Man cannot justify himself; that’s purely gratuitous even though he can refuse it. But once justified, once made just, he must now walk in that justice, now with grace, with God, at his side. If we enter and remain in that fellowship, all things are possible. He’ll put His law in our minds and write in on our hearts.

 

[Clare73]

Your post is a logical contradiction

Only when you don't know all the Biblical facts.
The will is governed by the disposition, what one prefers.

Free will is the power to voluntarily choose what one prefers without external force or constraint.

God works in our disposition, which governs our will, disposing us to prefer his will (Exodus 14:17,
Exodus 23:27; Deuteronomy 2:25, Deuteronomy 2:30; Joshua 11:20; John 6:37; etc., etc., etc.
And man choosing what he prefers therefore, without external force or constraint, willingly chooses God's will, the very definition of "free will."

 

[Clare73]

The church has always taught by grace through faith, as the foundation, the beginning of a journey to salvation.

The journey is to the holiness/sanctification of salvation, not to salvation itself, which is permanently once and forever.

Never faith alone.

And so you are in contradiction of Scripture, where salvation and justification are by faith alone, necessarily separate from faith's good works (Ephesians 2:8-9; Romans 3:21, Romans 3:28, Romans 9:30; Galatians 2:16, Galatians 3:11), for the sake of God's purpose against boasting.
It is the faith which saves and justifies, not faith's good works.

For salvation is the Lord's! His and his alone, man contributes nothing, so that there can be nothing about which man could possibly boast (Romans 4:2; 1 Corinthians 1:29; Ephesians 2:9), for God does not give nor share his glory with another.

So the church taught at Trent:

"...none of those things that precede justification, whether faith or works, merit the grace of justification."

It's all grace, and yet grace thast can be resisted.

But grace is not resisted because its very nature is God's work in the disposition giving him to prefer God's will, and man doesn't resist what he prefers, he chooses what he prefers.

It's quite evident from Genesis through all of His dealings with man that
God does not force or cause man to do the right thing;

Are you sure about that?

See Exodus 14:17, Exodus 23:27; Deuteronomy 2:25, Deuteronomy 2:30; Joshua 11:20; etc.

He wants us to want it too,

And he doesn't just want us to want it, he causes us to want it (see immediately above).

and to realize that the only way to obtain it is through Him, not of ourselves. Otherwise all the evil that man has experienced down through the centuries would be purely needless and gratuitous. Instead evil is the result of man opposing God's will, and God allowing it for a season, for His good purposes while He patiently waits for us to come to our senses and respond to His grace while turning away from the evil that causes so much harm to ourselves and others- and earns us death.

 

[Clare73]

I haven’t read a great deal of poetry but maybe you should-since I at least know that nothing I wrote sounds like much more than a rather practical understanding of how things work in the faith. You simply aren’t particularly disposed towards the fuller truth at this point and so reach to diversions and excuses for failing to grasp it.
What you fail to understand is that it’s both/and, a cooperative effort, not because God needs man’s cooperation for anything but simply because He desires it-for our own highest good.

The "co-operative effort" is in sanctification, not in salvation and justification (Romans 3:21, 28).
Salvation and justification is of God, and God alone, so that man can have absolutely nothing about which he could boast (Romans 4:2; 1 Corinthians 1:29; Ephesians 2:9).
Man "cooperates" in obedience through the Holy Spirit which leads to righteousness of sanctification (not the righteousness of justification) leading to holiness (Romans 6:16, Romans 6:19).

The NT presents:
righteousness of justification - by faith alone, apart from faith's good works--no boasting possible!

righteousness of sanctification - through faith's good works by/in the Holy Spirit (Philippians 2:13).

Again…and again…and again, He wouldn’t bother putting man in this pigsty of a world, relatively speaking, alienated from Him with centuries of awful human experiences of evil stemming from the awful treatment of one human by another, if not for the benefit, over time, that such evil can bestow upon us: that of our learning to hate it so that we might be all the more easily persuaded to shun it and, like prodigals, run to the true Good when He calls. Otherwise we’re back to the puppet show, regardless of any desire to protest against the concept-and evil being gratuitously caused on God’s part.
Grace and faith, or more accurately grace, the source of faith and any other gifts, can always be resisted. That ability to say “no” to God is the only reason that evil can exist, and the only reason that man needs revelation, the gospel, so that he can know what his obligations towards God are. Man cannot justify himself; that’s purely gratuitous even though he can refuse it. But once justified, once made just, he must now walk in that justice, now with grace, with God, at his side. If we enter and remain in that fellowship, all things are possible. He’ll put His law in our minds and write in on our hearts.

 

[fhansen]

The "co-operative effort" is in sanctification, not in salvation and justification (Romans 3:21, 28).

I see you're back, #3, still opposing Scripture, the whole counsel of the Christian Church east and west from day one, and the ECFs-being a bit off-based and unwilling to listen to sound and balanced teachings. Anyway, over and over again the bible instructs that we must live out the faith, put to death the deeds of the flesh, invest our talents, etc. Without holiness no one will see the Lord (Heb 12:4). That's what we truly know. We cannot predict that we will preservere, that we will run the race to its completion.

"But now that you have been set free from sin and have become slaves of God, the fruit you get leads to sanctification and its end, eternal life. For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord." Rom 6:22-23

 

[Clare73]

I see you're back, #3, still opposing Scripture, the whole counsel of the Christian Church east and west from day one, and the ECFs-being a bit off-based and unwilling to listen to sound and balanced teachings. Anyway, over and over again the bible instructs that we must live out the faith, put to death the deeds of the flesh, invest our talents, etc. Without holiness no one will see the Lord (Heb 12:4).

How is that not the sanctification of which I spoke, which is not to be confused with salvation?

That's what we truly know. We cannot predict that we will preservere, that we will run the race to its completion.

Except for that part guaranteeing the eternal inheritance to the born again (2 Corinthians 1:22,
2 Corinthians 5:5; Ephesians 1:14).

"But now that you have been set free from sin and have become slaves of God, the fruit you get leads to sanctification and its end, eternal life. For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord." Rom 6:22-23

 

[fhansen]

Except for that part guaranteeing the eternal inheritance to the born again (2 Corinthians 1:22,
2 Corinthians 5:5; Ephesians 1:14).

Everything's guaranteed to those who remain in Him, born out by what we do, motivated by the love He gives us. It's all free-and yet can all be thrown back in His face.

"Consider therefore the kindness and sternness of God: sternness to those who fell, but kindness to you, provided that you continue in his kindness. Otherwise, you also will be cut off." Rom 11:22

 

[Clare73]

Everything's guaranteed to those who remain in Him,

Which the born again are guaranteed to do, which is why their inheritance is guaranteed.

born out by what we do, motivated by the love He gives us. It's all free-and
yet can all be thrown back in His face.

Not when all born-again hearts are changed by the Holy Spirit to want to love, trust and obey the Father (Philippians 2:13).
Only professing (faith) Christians who are not born again (tares) throw it all back in his face.

"Consider therefore the kindness and sternness of God: sternness to those who fell, but kindness to you, provided that you continue in his kindness. Otherwise, you also will be cut off." Rom 11:22

Precisely. . .spoken to professing (faith) Christians where not all are possessing (faith) Christians (wheat).

 

[fhansen]

Not when all born-again hearts are changed by the Holy Spirit to want to love, trust and obey the Father (Philippians 2:13).
Only professing (faith) Christians who are not born again (tares) throw it all back in his face.

This is all just speculation-not born out by real life experiences, and not by Scripture according to its proper understanding- and taking into account all related passages. You've simply been influenced by a certain Reformed position on the matter.

Faith is faith, a supernatural gift or else it's not faith at all. And you've subjectively determined that you are definitively one of the elect, which isn't necessarily true to begin with, rather it's just a self-assessment. But even if a person is born again, they can still die all over again. The ones that don't, the ones who persevere, are those who end up being the elect. Meanwhile we can be a branch grafted in, and also a branch cut back off.

"If indeed they have escaped the corruption of the world through the knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, only to be entangled and overcome by it again, their final condition is worse than it was at first. It would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness than to have known it and then to turn away from the holy commandment passed on to them. Of them the proverbs are true: “A dog returns to its vomit,” and, “A sow that is washed goes back to her wallowing in the mud.” 2 Pet 2:20-22

 

[Clare73]

This is all just speculation-

Assertion without demonstration is assertion without merit.
You get to present the Scriptures in disagreement with said "speculation," that I may examine them.

not born out by real life experiences,

The human experience is not my authority for faith.

and not by Scripture according to its proper understanding- and taking into account all related passages.

And that assertion you get to Biblically demonstrate, or it is without merit.

You've simply been influenced by a certain Reformed position on the matter.

Methinks the pot is calling the kettle black.

Mine is the NT faith. . .yours is the revised NT faith.
And that "certain position" influencing me is called "the Scriptures" on which my NT faith is built.

Faith is faith, a supernatural gift or else it's not faith at all. And you've subjectively determined that you are definitively one of the elect, which isn't necessarily true to begin with, rather it's just a self-assessment.

Nope. . .it is both objectively and subjectively determined.

"THe Spirit himself testifies with our spirit that we are God's children (Romans 8:16), sons of God led by the Spirit of God (Romans 8:14).

And on the testimony of two witnesses (i.e, the Holy Spirit and my spirit), a thing is established.
(Matthew 18:16; 2 Corinthians 13:1; 1 Timothy 5:19)

But even if a person is born again, they can still die all over again.

Only if God's arm is too short (Numbers 11:23):
"All that the Father gives me (the born again) will come to me." (John 6:37)

"I shall lose none of all that he has given me." (John 6:39)

The ones that don't, the ones who persevere, are those who end up being the elect.

Except for the fact that they don't "end up" being the elect, they start out being the elect:

"Those God foreknew (knew in love, for his purpose--as in Jacob, Romans 9:11),
he also predestined to be conformed to the likeness of his Son" (Romans 8:29),
choosing them by his grace--before the foundation of the world (Ephesians 1:4),
before the beginning of time (2 Timothy 1:9), and them not "ending up" being the elect.
Mine is the NT faith.

Meanwhile we can be a branch grafted in, and also a branch cut back off.

We can be in the kingdom (like wheat), but not of the kingdom (like tares). (Matthew 13:24-30)

"If indeed they have escaped the corruption of the world through the knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, only to be entangled and overcome by it again,
their final condition is worse than it was at first. It would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness than to have known it and then to turn away from the holy commandment passed on to them. Of them the proverbs are true:
“A dog returns to its vomit,” and, “A sow that is washed goes back to her wallowing in the mud.” 2 Pet 2:20-22

Thereby showing themselves to be tares, not wheat, but which do look alike.

 

[disciple Clint]

How so?

Because God being in control of necessarily means man has no free will?

Well yes, if God is controlling everything I do, then I have no free will

 

[ozso]

However you want to look at it the Council of Trent's teachings were consistent with the those of the historic church.

The church teaches that nothing we do merits grace, or eternal life, or anything-we don't even exist apart from God and He certainly doesn't need us- and yet that God nonetheless has created man such that what we do, how we respond to His grace, counts. So, for example:

"To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life." Rom 2:7

"When you were slaves to sin, you were free from the control of righteousness. What benefit did you reap at that time from the things you are now ashamed of? Those things result in death! But now that you have been set free from sin and have become slaves of God, the benefit you reap leads to holiness, and the result is eternal life. For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord." Rom 6:20-23

"Therefore, brothers and sisters, we have an obligation—but it is not to the flesh, to live according to it. For if you live according to the flesh, you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the misdeeds of the body, you will live." Rom 8:12-13

More from the catechism, on "merit" in this case:

"You are glorified in the assembly of your Holy Ones, for in crowning their merits you are crowning your own gifts." Augustine

2007 With regard to God, there is no strict right to any merit on the part of man. Between God and us there is an immeasurable inequality, for we have received everything from him, our Creator.

2008 The merit of man before God in the Christian life arises from the fact that God has freely chosen to associate man with the work of his grace. The fatherly action of God is first on his own initiative, and then follows man's free acting through his collaboration, so that the merit of good works is to be attributed in the first place to the grace of God, then to the faithful. Man's merit, moreover, itself is due to God, for his good actions proceed in Christ, from the predispositions and assistance given by the Holy Spirit.

2009 Filial adoption, in making us partakers by grace in the divine nature, can bestow true merit on us as a result of God's gratuitous justice. This is our right by grace, the full right of love, making us "co-heirs" with Christ and worthy of obtaining "the promised inheritance of eternal life."60 The merits of our good works are gifts of the divine goodness.61 "Grace has gone before us; now we are given what is due. . . . Our merits are God's gifts."62

2010 Since the initiative belongs to God in the order of grace, no one can merit the initial grace of forgiveness and justification, at the beginning of conversion. Moved by the Holy Spirit and by charity, we can then merit for ourselves and for others the graces needed for our sanctification, for the increase of grace and charity, and for the attainment of eternal life. Even temporal goods like health and friendship can be merited in accordance with God's wisdom. These graces and goods are the object of Christian prayer. Prayer attends to the grace we need for meritorious actions.

2011 The charity of Christ is the source in us of all our merits before God. Grace, by uniting us to Christ in active love, ensures the supernatural quality of our acts and consequently their merit before God and before men. The saints have always had a lively awareness that their merits were pure grace.

"After earth's exile, I hope to go and enjoy you in the fatherland, but I do not want to lay up merits for heaven. I want to work for your love alone. . . . In the evening of this life, I shall appear before you with empty hands, for I do not ask you, Lord, to count my works. All our justice is blemished in your eyes. I wish, then, to be clothed in your own justice and to receive from your love the eternal possession of yourself."63

Man's main job is to get on board with God, and remain on board, following Him and His will daily to the best extent we can, and getting back on board if we slip off. He'll always work to keep us there but still will simply not force that issue at the end of the day.
As Scripture affirms in different places, we're saved, being, saved, and will be saved. Either way we work our our salvation, we make our calling and election sure. It ain't over till God gives His judgment. The idea that we're saved all at once, with no concern about compromising and losing our justified state, is a wholly novel notion.

And of course the tenant of universal redemption is that the will be saved category applies to all.

 

[disciple Clint]

Only when you don't know all the Biblical facts.
The will is governed by the disposition, what one prefers.

Free will is the power to voluntarily choose what one prefers without external force or constraint.

God works in our disposition, which governs our will, disposing us to prefer his will (Exodus 14:17,
Exodus 23:27; Deuteronomy 2:25, Deuteronomy 2:30; Joshua 11:20; John 6:37; etc., etc., etc.
And man choosing what he prefers therefore, without external force or constraint, willingly chooses God's will, the very definition of "free will."

OK and then you get back to the problem of God being responsible for all sin, If God is controlling man then man is not responsible for sin, God is. Can you see how that is not possible?

 

[ozso]

Well yes, if God is controlling everything I do, then I have no free will

It's a bit confusing because while God obviously doesn't control every aspect of what we do, at the same time God is in control of everything. And is in control of our final outcome whatever that will be. Or put another way, when we die, we're no longer in control according to the majority belief. People are either sent to heaven or sent to hell. And especially with hell, after death people are sent there whether they want to be or not. They have absolutely no choice or any kind of free will whatsoever in the matter.

 

[disciple Clint]

It's a bit confusing because while God obviously doesn't control every aspect of what we do, at the same time God is in control of everything. And is in control of our final outcome whatever that will be. Or put another way, when we die, we're no longer in control according to the majority belief. People are either sent to heaven or sent to hell. And especially with hell, after death people are sent there whether they want to be or not. They have absolutely no choice or any kind of free will whatsoever in the matter.

And especially with hell, after death people are sent there whether they want to be or not.

I believe that anyone who goes to hell sent themselves there, they got there because that IS where they wanted to go. They were free to accept Jesus at anytime during their live and they refused to do so, they refused a free gift of eternal life, they wanted hell and not eternal life with God.

 

[ozso]

I believe that anyone who goes to hell sent themselves there, they got there because that IS where they wanted to go. They were free to accept Jesus at anytime during their live and they refused to do so, they refused a free gift of eternal life, they wanted hell and not eternal life with God.

That doesn't apply to everyone. Or even most throughout the course of history. As someone challenging my faith once pointed out, it was mighty convenient for me to be born where the only correct religion is so extremely prevalent. Would I be a Christian if I had been born where that wasn't the case?

 

[fhansen]

That doesn't apply to everyone. Or even most throughout the course of history. As someone challenging my faith once pointed out, it was mighty convenient for me to be born where the only correct religion is so extremely prevalent. Would I be a Christian if I had been born where that wasn't the case?

And yet is being a Christian enough anyway? What does that even necessarily mean, just “being a Christian”? What if some guy who can’t know God as well as I can and has never heard the law nonetheless obeys the law regarding his neighbor much better than I do because like some Good Samaritan he loves better than I do? I’d rather be in his shoes when we meet God I think.

But then again, if salvation is universal I guess it really doesn’t much matter; either there is no criteria by which we’re judged or God will eventually bring everyone around to His POV and to value His love anyway by the end of the day. But if the former is true, or if election without regard to man’s will is true, then it really makes me wonder, why all the drama? Why all the evil down through the centuries? Why allow evil to ever have its day at all? Why would Jesus need to come, let alone come to suffer for our sakes? Why would man need any revelation, any knowledge? Why not just put everyone in heaven at the beginning and get it done?