Universalism and Particular Redemption

[Jeff Saunders]

I believe that post of Wendy's was originally directed to me. My answer defended the role of man's will in his salvation, according to God's sovereign discretion. In ancient church teachings man can’t possibly turn himself to God; he cannot find God, but he can still refuse to be found by Him, refuse to come to Him when He calls or open the door when He knocks. Man can also shut the door later, refusing to remain in Him, turning back away; man can say “no” to God. If God’s will is always done, why do we pray that it be done on earth as it is in heaven? Or why is God patiently waiting for us to come to Him, not wanting any to perish as per 2 Pet 3:9 if not for the possibility of our not being saved? What’s the hold-up, other than man's will?

And if salvation is universal as the OP maintains, then for what possible reason would God submit humans to centuries of pain, evil, victimization, sin? Why not just put everyone in heaven if that’s the idea anyway, without regard to man’s will as it were? And why would I even care if I blasphemed, if salvation is universal?? In truth, nothing will separate us from the love of God except for our own lack of love in return, our own failure to respond in faith, hope, and love. Man’s the wildcard, always has been; that’s what allowed Adam to fall to begin with: by the abuse of the good gift of his freedom.

And that's why we need revelation and grace, revelation in order to know God and His will, and then grace in order to be capable of believing in and obeying it, obeying Him now, as Adam refused to do back in the day. But He won't force the issue; that's why evil exists to begin with.

I will give a try why there is evil and all the human suffering that sin has caused. Gods desire is to have a creation that is in fellowship with him by choice because that is the greatest form of love. He could have made robots with no choice but that was not his heart. The best way for that to happen is to let his creation experience life that has gone against his love, all the suffering and pain have a purpose. Do you not think that if God did not have a purpose why would he create satan knowing what he would do , it did not take him by surprise. But he has a plan that is why we are told Jesus was crucified before the foundation of the earth, that was Gods plan all along. At the end of the age when Jesus hands over the creation to the Father and death is conquered, all of creation will be able to see what sin and going against Gods love is like and will say never again. Then as it says in 1Cor 15 God will be all in all . So for rest of eternity all his creation will love him out of choice and he will have perfect unity and all things will be made new the old is gone behold everything is new, no more sin.

 

[Mark Quayle]

I don’t understand the two wills of God I have read the Bible many times and can not find one place it talks about God having two wills. Is he at odds with himself?

It is only a way to help understand how at one time the Bible says his will is being disobeyed, and at another time it says his will cannot be obstructed, and other such 'apparent' contradictions. It it just saying that the two different types of references to God's will are referring to two different things. It by no means holds the same force doctrinally as such things as the Sovereignty of God or Salvation by Grace.

 

[fhansen]

I will give a try why there is evil and all the human suffering that sin has caused. Gods desire is to have a creation that is in fellowship with him by choice because that is the greatest form of love. He could have made robots with no choice but that was not his heart. The best way for that to happen is to let his creation experience life that has gone against his love, all the suffering and pain have a purpose. Do you not think that if God did not have a purpose why would he create satan knowing what he would do , it did not take him by surprise. But he has a plan that is why we are told Jesus was crucified before the foundation of the earth, that was Gods plan all along. At the end of the age when Jesus hands over the creation to the Father and death is conquered, all of creation will be able to see what sin and going against Gods love is like and will say never again. Then as it says in 1Cor 15 God will be all in all . So for rest of eternity all his creation will love him out of choice and he will have perfect unity and all things will be made new the old is gone behold everything is new, no more sin.

Yes

 

[Jeff Saunders]

It is only a way to help understand how at one time the Bible says his will is being disobeyed, and at another time it says his will cannot be obstructed, and other such 'apparent' contradictions. It it just saying that the two different types of references to God's will are referring to two different things. It by no means holds the same force doctrinally as such things as the Sovereignty of God or Salvation by Grace.

To me it seems like the people who don’t like the idea that “ that it’s Gods will none should parish but all come to repentance “ 2 Pet3:9 . Need to have two wills in order for this to fit into the idea that God loses most of his creation to satan

 

[Der Alte]

To me it seems like the people who don’t like the idea that “ that it’s Gods will none should parish but all come to repentance “ 2 Pet3:9 . Need to have two wills in order for this to fit into the idea that God loses most of his creation to satan

Please show me one vs, 2 or more would be better, where Jesus, Himself, or God the Father, Himself, states unequivocally that all mankind, the righteous and unrighteous alike will be saved, no matter what or words to that effect.
Meanwhile will you please give me your understanding of the following passage.
.....When I first heard the Calvinist proof text about a leopard not able to change his spots, nor the Ethiopian his skin, I needed to see the context. I found that God was speaking to the king and queen of Israel not, necessarily all of mankind, Jer 13:18.
Note this passage from Jeremiah. God said “I have caused to cleave” That word is הדבקתי/ha’dabaq’thi. It is in the perfect or completed sense. God’s express will, clearly stated, for the whole house of Israel and Judah, to cling to God as a belt clings to a man’s waist.
It was done, finished, completed, in God’s sight, and, according to some arguments, nothing man can do will cause God’s will to not be done. But they, Israel and Judah, would not hear and obey, their will, vs. God’s will, So God destroyed them, vs. 14.
…..This passage very much speaks to God’s sovereign will, and man’s free will and agency. God stated very clearly what His will was, in terms that cannot be misunderstood. But, because the Israelites and Judeans would not hear, and obey, God destroyed them, instead of them being unto God, “for a people, and for a name, and for a praise, and for a glory, vs. 10.”

Jer 13:1 Thus saith the LORD unto me, Go and get thee a linen girdle, and put it upon thy loins, and put it not in water.
2 So I got a girdle according to the word of the LORD, and put it on my loins.
3 And the word of the LORD came unto me the second time, saying,
4 Take the girdle that thou hast got, which is upon thy loins, and arise, go to Euphrates, and hide it there in a hole of the rock.
5 So I went, and hid it by Euphrates, as the LORD commanded me.
6 And it came to pass after many days, that the LORD said unto me, Arise, go to Euphrates, and take the girdle from thence, which I commanded thee to hide there.
7 Then I went to Euphrates, and digged, and took the girdle from the place where I had hid it: and, behold, the girdle was marred, it was profitable for nothing.
8 Then the word of the LORD came unto me, saying,
9 Thus saith the LORD, After this manner will I mar the pride of Judah, and the great pride of Jerusalem.
10 This evil people, which refuse to hear my words, which walk in the imagination of their heart, and walk after other gods, to serve them, and to worship them, shall even be as this girdle, which is good for nothing.
11 For as the girdle cleaveth to the loins of a man, so have I caused to cleave [הדבקתי/ha’dabaq’thi] unto me the whole house of Israel and the whole house of Judah, saith the LORD; that they might be unto me for a people, and for a name, and for a praise, and for a glory: but they would not hear.
· · ·
14 And I will dash them one against another, even the fathers and the sons together, saith the LORD: I will not pity, nor spare, nor have mercy, but destroy them.​

Note, verse 14, God said “I will NOT have pity, will NOT spare, and will NOT have mercy but destroy them.”
This does not sound like Universal Reconciliation to me. Also we have this passage in the N.T.

Matthew 7:21-23
(21) Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
(22) Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
(23) And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.​

When Jesus says "never" does He really mean someday? Where does Jesus say by and by He willl say to those in this passage "I now know you welcome come on in?'
And OBTW feel free to try to tell me what these two passages really mean.

 

[Clare73]

I don’t understand the two wills of God I have read the Bible many times and
can not find one place it talks about God having two wills. Is he at odds with himself?

See Deuteronomy 29:29.

 

[Jeff Saunders]

Please show me one vs, 2 or more would be better, where Jesus, Himself, or God the Father, Himself, states unequivocally that all mankind, the righteous and unrighteous alike will be saved, no matter what or words to that effect.
Meanwhile will you please give me your understanding of the following passage.
.....When I first heard the Calvinist proof text about a leopard not able to change his spots, nor the Ethiopian his skin, I needed to see the context. I found that God was speaking to the king and queen of Israel not, necessarily all of mankind, Jer 13:18.
Note this passage from Jeremiah. God said “I have caused to cleave” That word is הדבקתי/ha’dabaq’thi. It is in the perfect or completed sense. God’s express will, clearly stated, for the whole house of Israel and Judah, to cling to God as a belt clings to a man’s waist.
It was done, finished, completed, in God’s sight, and, according to some arguments, nothing man can do will cause God’s will to not be done. But they, Israel and Judah, would not hear and obey, their will, vs. God’s will, So God destroyed them, vs. 14.
…..This passage very much speaks to God’s sovereign will, and man’s free will and agency. God stated very clearly what His will was, in terms that cannot be misunderstood. But, because the Israelites and Judeans would not hear, and obey, God destroyed them, instead of them being unto God, “for a people, and for a name, and for a praise, and for a glory, vs. 10.”

Jer 13:1 Thus saith the LORD unto me, Go and get thee a linen girdle, and put it upon thy loins, and put it not in water.
2 So I got a girdle according to the word of the LORD, and put it on my loins.
3 And the word of the LORD came unto me the second time, saying,
4 Take the girdle that thou hast got, which is upon thy loins, and arise, go to Euphrates, and hide it there in a hole of the rock.
5 So I went, and hid it by Euphrates, as the LORD commanded me.
6 And it came to pass after many days, that the LORD said unto me, Arise, go to Euphrates, and take the girdle from thence, which I commanded thee to hide there.
7 Then I went to Euphrates, and digged, and took the girdle from the place where I had hid it: and, behold, the girdle was marred, it was profitable for nothing.
8 Then the word of the LORD came unto me, saying,
9 Thus saith the LORD, After this manner will I mar the pride of Judah, and the great pride of Jerusalem.
10 This evil people, which refuse to hear my words, which walk in the imagination of their heart, and walk after other gods, to serve them, and to worship them, shall even be as this girdle, which is good for nothing.
11 For as the girdle cleaveth to the loins of a man, so have I caused to cleave [הדבקתי/ha’dabaq’thi] unto me the whole house of Israel and the whole house of Judah, saith the LORD; that they might be unto me for a people, and for a name, and for a praise, and for a glory: but they would not hear.
· · ·
14 And I will dash them one against another, even the fathers and the sons together, saith the LORD: I will not pity, nor spare, nor have mercy, but destroy them.​

Note, verse 14, God said “I will NOT have pity, will NOT spare, and will NOT have mercy but destroy them.”
This does not sound like Universal Reconciliation to me. Also we have this passage in the N.T.

Matthew 7:21-23
(21) Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
(22) Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
(23) And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.​

When Jesus says "never" does He really mean someday? Where does Jesus say by and by He willl say to those in this passage "I now know you welcome come on in?'
And OBTW feel free to try to tell me what these two passages really mean.

I feel like we have been down this road once before but I will go over it again. First off only those who bow to Jesus will be saved, those who are unrighteous are no different than you or me before we bent our knee to Jesus and confessed him in our heart. I also believe that God pursues us our true self not our physical body (they all die anyway) and I can find no place that says God stops pursuing us after this body dies. But we do know that he did pursue those from Adam to the last person to die under the old covenant. Because Jesus himself said no man comes to the Father except through me, so all those who followed God before Jesus had to accept him after there mortal body had died or there are multiple ways to the Father and Jesus is a liar. This is the framework that I understand the Bible to be saying. Now the verses you have asked for Rom 11:32 For God has committed them all to disobedience, that He might have mercy on them all. If creating people for eternal torture is mercy I guess I don’t understand mercy. John 13:3 /John 3:35 Hebrews 1:2 say the Father has given all things into Jesus hands or he is the heir of all things. John 6 38-39 Jesus said I came down from heaven not to do mine own will but the will of Him that sent me and this is the Fathers will which has sent me, That of all which he has given me I should lose nothing, but raise it up again at the last day. So Jesus gets 100% of what he paid for. John 4:42 Jesus is The Christ , the savior of the world. Not the potential savior. 1John 2:2 Jesus is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the world. I think that covers everyone. 1 Tim 2:3-6 This is good and acceptable in the sight of God our savior, who will have all men to be saved, and come to the knowledge of the truth. Gods will is always done. 1Tim4:9 … because we trust in the living God , who is the savior of all men, especially of those who believe. This one I know is a tough one because God makes a distinction between all men and those who are believers. Phil 2:10 Every knee shall bow of those in heaven, and those on earth, and those under the earth, and that every tongue shall confess that Jesus is Lord to the glory of God the Father. You should read that one in the Greek it’s not a forceful thing it is a willing thing even a joyful thing.Col1:19-22 God was pleased to have all fullness dwell in him and through Him to reconcile to Himself All things on earth or in heaven by Jesus. Again all things not a small fraction of things. Acts 3:21 In Jesus Christ is the restoration of all things , which God has spoken by the mouth of all His holy prophets since the world began. I hope you are getting the picture there are more Rom5:18 /2 Pet 3;9 / 2 Cor5:19-20 / Gal 3:8/ John 12:32 /2Cor 5:14 and that is just New Testament . For me I got tired of trying to explain all these away and remember all the correct answers th make them sound not as they sound it is so obvious as to what the Fathers heart is but until you understand the True Nature and Love of God this makes no sense. Once you experience the Love of God and see him as he is you can’t understand that not only is God not going to torture people forever but that he can’t. His nature is Love and he can do no unloving act, I don’t care how many times I hear that God sending people to hell is a loving act that is straight out of the devil. He is not a God who has love as one of his qualities, love is his essence. Everything he does is love he can do nothing else. I know this is hard to understand if you see God as the angry guy who has all this wrath and he has to take it out on someone so he killed his son so he could save a small fraction of his creation. God is bigger than sin, satan and he wins in the end . 1Cor15 the last enemy to be conquered is death and then Jesus hands all things back to God and God will be all I all , God can’t be all in all as long as he has to torture most of his creation. So yes Jesus will lose none not one.

 

[Jeff Saunders]

See Deuteronomy 29:29.

I do not get how this is talking about 2 wills of God. This verse is talking about God has kept some thins secret till the time they are revealed. He even tells us when talking to the disciples that even the prophets long to look into the things that were taking place in Jesus. The things that are revealed are so we can obey what God wants. That why God said Prov 25:2 It is the glory of God to conceal a matter and the glory of a king to search out a matter. This verse doesn’t talk about the secret will of God that’s a made up thing to explain away verses like It’s Gods will that none parish and others . God has one will he is not at odds with himself . That is man making God in his own image.

 

[Jeff Saunders]

Actually God did not create satan, He created a being who rebelled and wanted to be like God who fell from heaven and was cast our from his rebellion and became satan. Everything God created was good and satan is the absence of everything good.

Did not God know that satan would rebel and he created him anyway, satans rebellion was not a surprise (nothing can surprise God) so maiGos had a bigger plan in mind and satan is just a tool that God uses to get what he wills in the end.

 

[Der Alte]

I feel like we have been down this road once before but I will go over it again. First off only those who bow to Jesus will be saved, those who are unrighteous are no different than you or me before we bent our knee to Jesus and confessed him in our heart. I also believe that God pursues us our true self not our physical body (they all die anyway) and I can find no place that says God stops pursuing us after this body dies. But we do know that he did pursue those from Adam to the last person to die under the old covenant. Because Jesus himself said no man comes to the Father except through me, so all those who followed God before Jesus had to accept him after there mortal body had died or there are multiple ways to the Father and Jesus is a liar. This is the framework that I understand the Bible to be saying. Now the verses you have asked for Rom 11:32 For God has committed them all to disobedience, that He might have mercy on them all. If creating people for eternal torture is mercy I guess I don’t understand mercy. John 13:3 /John 3:35 Hebrews 1:2 say the Father has given all things into Jesus hands or he is the heir of all things. John 6 38-39 Jesus said I came down from heaven not to do mine own will but the will of Him that sent me and this is the Fathers will which has sent me, That of all which he has given me I should lose nothing, but raise it up again at the last day. So Jesus gets 100% of what he paid for. John 4:42 Jesus is The Christ , the savior of the world. Not the potential savior. 1John 2:2 Jesus is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the world. I think that covers everyone. 1 Tim 2:3-6 This is good and acceptable in the sight of God our savior, who will have all men to be saved, and come to the knowledge of the truth. Gods will is always done. 1Tim4:9 … because we trust in the living God , who is the savior of all men, especially of those who believe. This one I know is a tough one because God makes a distinction between all men and those who are believers. Phil 2:10 Every knee shall bow of those in heaven, and those on earth, and those under the earth, and that every tongue shall confess that Jesus is Lord to the glory of God the Father. You should read that one in the Greek it’s not a forceful thing it is a willing thing even a joyful thing.Col1:19-22 God was pleased to have all fullness dwell in him and through Him to reconcile to Himself All things on earth or in heaven by Jesus. Again all things not a small fraction of things. Acts 3:21 In Jesus Christ is the restoration of all things , which God has spoken by the mouth of all His holy prophets since the world began. I hope you are getting the picture there are more Rom5:18 /2 Pet 3;9 / 2 Cor5:19-20 / Gal 3:8/ John 12:32 /2Cor 5:14 and that is just New Testament . For me I got tired of trying to explain all these away and remember all the correct answers th make them sound not as they sound it is so obvious as to what the Fathers heart is but until you understand the True Nature and Love of God this makes no sense. Once you experience the Love of God and see him as he is you can’t understand that not only is God not going to torture people forever but that he can’t. His nature is Love and he can do no unloving act, I don’t care how many times I hear that God sending people to hell is a loving act that is straight out of the devil. He is not a God who has love as one of his qualities, love is his essence. Everything he does is love he can do nothing else. I know this is hard to understand if you see God as the angry guy who has all this wrath and he has to take it out on someone so he killed his son so he could save a small fraction of his creation. God is bigger than sin, satan and he wins in the end . 1Cor15 the last enemy to be conquered is death and then Jesus hands all things back to God and God will be all I all , God can’t be all in all as long as he has to torture most of his creation. So yes Jesus will lose none not one.

Posting your view or the views of others, scholars etc. does not really address my post. I need for some scholars with letters after their names to address 2 or more of my conclusions and show how my conclusions are wrong with credible, verifiable, lexical, grammatical etc. evidence anything I posted is incorrect.
I have been active at this forum since late Dec. '98 or early Jan '99. I can't remember every conversation I have had. But I take your post to mean you can't show me even one verse where Jesus, Himself or God, the Father, Himself says unequivocally that they will save all mankind, the righteous and unrighteous alike, no matter what or words to that effect.
I have seen the arguments you posted multiple times by different people. By quoting selective verses out-of-context anyone can make the Bible say almost anything. Exaggerated example. Psalm 14:1 and 53:1 says "there is no God."
I heard another one somewhere "then Judas went and hanged himself" "Jesus said 'go thou and do likewise.'"

 

[Clare73]

I do not get how this is talking about 2 wills of God. This verse is talking about God has kept some thins secret till the time they are revealed. He even tells us when talking to the disciples that even the prophets long to look into the things that were taking place in Jesus. The things that are revealed are so we can obey what God wants. That why God said Prov 25:2 It is the glory of God to conceal a matter and the glory of a king to search out a matter. This verse doesn’t talk about the secret will of God that’s a made up thing to explain away verses like It’s Gods will that none parish and others . God has one will he is not at odds with himself . That is man making God in his own image.

It speaks of a revealed will of God and a secret will of God.

 

[Jeff Saunders]

I have been active at this forum since late Dec. '98 or early Jan '99. I can't remember every conversation I have had. But I take your post to mean you can't show me even one verse where Jesus, Himself or God, the Father, Himself says unequivocally that they will save all mankind, the righteous and unrighteous alike, no matter what or words to that effect.
I have seen the arguments you posted multiple times by different people. By quoting selective verses out-of-context anyone can make the Bible say almost anything. Exaggerated example. Psalm 14:1 and 53:1 says "there is no God."
I heard another one somewhere "then Judas went and hanged himself" "Jesus said 'go thou and do likewise.'"

I think this is the classic case of the pot calling the kettle black. The verses I gave are not out of context and if you really read my post you have just proved my point until you know and understand the Love of God you can’t know what these things. I have been praying that the Holy Spirit will show you his true love and you will see that Jesus is the savior of the world just as he said he is.I am sure when you get to the Father in his kingdom then you will see . I understand where you are coming from because I too was very religious but had no idea how wide how deep how marvelous is the love of God. I pray that God will open your eyes so you can see till then enjoy your religious traditions and I will keep seeking God as he is not as men have made him out to be.

 

[Jeff Saunders]

It speaks of a revealed will of God and a secret will of God.

I think it is a stretch to get there from that verse but even if God has a secret will, I think that using Gods secret will to explain away what the Bible clearly says in black and white is his will is just another way to get around what God has clearly said. Examples in Rom11:32 “For God has committed them all to disobedience, that He might have mercy on all.” So we know God does not have mercy on them all only a small fraction so man makes up work arounds like the first all is everyone, the second all is only the elect or God has mercy on all he has given us a world to live in food ext everyone gets that, but most go to a eternal torture chamber for ever but he still had mercy when they were alive. Can you see the gyrations we have to do to make things fit? 1Tim4:9-11 … because we trust in the living God ,who is the savior of all men, especially of those who believe. Now it can’t mean what it says God has a secret will the “savior to all men we know is the elect or he is the potential savior, and to emphasize that he just says the same thing twice by saying “especially those who believe “ both times it talks of the elect or those God knows will follow him. That is the secret. Phil2:10-11 “every knee shall bow of those in heaven, and those on earth, and those under the earth. And that every tongue should confess that Jesus is Lord to the glory of God the Father.” The secret will of God is that he is going to force all people to admit he is God before he throws them into the lake of fire. But the verses in the Greek are such that each person will joyfully, willingly, gladly bow there knee and confess him as Lord. The same thing that I had to do and that scripture says preceded each of our conversion. There are many more that is the very thing that drove me to Christian Universal Redemption, I got tired of all the work around I had to do. I could not keep going the way I was going I understand Gods love and felt it deeply and got tired of trying to explain away the obvious so that it would fit into my man made tradition. Then I find out that if you translate one word differently aionios and it’s form from eternal to of the age or eon which is a good translation then I no longer had to do all these gyrations to these verses. If the lake of fire is a refinery and doesn’t go on forever but is a time that God uses to strip away all that man has built to stay away from God and when each person sees God for who he is and feels his love they to will do what I did and bend the knee and confess with there mouth that Jesus is Lord. Then all will follow Jesus some it may take a long time but no one can resist Gods love forever (that is one thing the Calvinist do get correct) By the way English gets it word eon from the very word that has been translated eternal in most Bibles. Now I read the Bible with that set of glasses and I can say Jesus is the savior of the world, and it really is Gods will that none will be lost forever. What a love story , not only is Jesus going to get 100% of what he paid for but God is greater than sin, satan doesn’t win the majority of creation. God really does Love his creation and had a plan to save it from the foundation of the earth. Wow what a God we serve. I know it sounds too good to be true but we serve the God of the impossible.

 

[Jeff Saunders]

Ae you sure you aren't part of what men have made him out to be?

Yes I am sure ,I have been on the side of the fence you are now on I taught it for years. But now I have a peace and Love like I have never had before and have such a desire for my fellow humans to be part of this glorious offer that Jesus has given us to be part of his family not just a subject of his rule. I will never go back to empty teaching of men ( I will still have error but we all do) I will follow Jesus as he is a God of love and light. And will serve him till He comes back or this mortal body dies. I pray that someday you to will see God as he is.

 

[Jesus is YHWH]

Posting your view or the views of others, scholars etc. does not really address my post. I need for some scholars with letters after their names to address 2 or more of my conclusions and show how my conclusions are wrong with credible, verifiable, lexical, grammatical etc. evidence anything I posted is incorrect.
I have been active at this forum since late Dec. '98 or early Jan '99. I can't remember every conversation I have had. But I take your post to mean you can't show me even one verse where Jesus, Himself or God, the Father, Himself says unequivocally that they will save all mankind, the righteous and unrighteous alike, no matter what or words to that effect.
I have seen the arguments you posted multiple times by different people. By quoting selective verses out-of-context anyone can make the Bible say almost anything. Exaggerated example. Psalm 14:1 and 53:1 says "there is no God."
I heard another one somewhere "then Judas went and hanged himself" "Jesus said 'go thou and do likewise.'"

Amen

 

[Jeff Saunders]

Amen

Once again I took a screen shot from writing of David Bentley Hart , he has letters after his name and is a Greek scholar, if you will not even consider what he is saying but simply write it off well you have ended the conversation I do hope you will at least read it who knows you might even learn something.

 

[Clare73]

I think it is a stretch to get there from that verse but even if God has a secret will, I think that using Gods secret will to explain away what the Bible clearly says in black and white is his will is just another way to get around what God has clearly said.

Assertion without Biblical demonstration is without Biblical merit.

God's "desire" and God's "will" are not the same thing.
What he desires is revealed to us, but is not necessarily what he wills/decrees. (Deuteronomy 29:29)
What God desired, and revealed to Pharaoh, "Let my people go," was not what he willed/decreed for Pharaoh, as explained to Moses before Moses even left Midian for Egypt, "I will harden his heart so that he will not let them go." (Exodus 4:21) Which secret will/decree God later made clear to Pharaoh:
"I raised you up for this very purpose, that I might display my power in you and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth." (Exodus 9:16; Romans 9:17)

 

[Clare73]

Yes I am sure ,I have been on the side of the fence you are now on I taught it for years. But now I have a peace and Love like I have never had before and have such a desire for my fellow humans to be part of this glorious offer that
Jesus has given us to be part of his family not just a subject of his rule.

We are always both in the Kingdom of God. . .and which are in no way in conflict with taking Scripture at its word that unbelief results in eternal death.

I will never go back to empty teaching of men ( I will still have error but we all do) I will follow Jesus as he is a God of love and light. And will serve him till He comes back or this mortal body dies. I pray that someday you to will see God as he is.

Which is as he is in his word written, as distinct from the notions of man.

 

[Clare73]

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[Jeff Saunders]

Assertion without Biblical demonstration is without Biblical merit.

God's "desire" and God's "will" are not the same thing.
What he desires is revealed to us, but is not necessarily what he wills/decrees. (Deuteronomy 29:29)
What God desired, and revealed to Pharaoh, "Let my people go," was not what he willed/decreed for Pharaoh, as explained to Moses before Moses even left Midian for Egypt, "I will harden his heart so that he will not let them go." (Exodus 4:21) Which secret will/decree God later made clear to Pharaoh:
"I raised you up for this very purpose, that I might display my power in you and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth." (Exodus 9:16; Romans 9:17)

So let me get this straight you serve a God who has a desire but it is at odds with his will is he so weak as to be able to not get what he desires? I am sorry for you, I serve a God who desires all men to be saved and the Bible clearly states that His will is that none parish,His will will happen and He is powerful enough to get both his desire and his will they are the same. Even Jesus says that a house divided against itself will fall.