Universal Reconciliation

[DrBubbaLove]

"The situation is as if - not that it is true as to God made
some people destined for wrath and others for glory."

Actually it is true that God destined some for destruction. The entire chapter of romans 11 talks about this. Romans 11:7-10. God elected a remnant of Israel for himself by grace and hardened the rest. Vessels of mercy vs vessels of wrath. And why does God do this? Romans 11:11 so that by their trespass, Salvation may come to the Gentiles. Romans 17:11-24 explains that God cut off the natural branches to graft in unnatural branches. God predestined all of this to happen. None of this happened by mistake. But we're not finished with the whole story yet.

"But if a person hardens their heart over and over again and dies in their sin, don't see in the scriptures anywhere where they can have mercy"

Well, I don't SEE where Romans 9 mentions specific post death eternal destinies of mankind, which is the original question. However I do SEE that God will save(take away sins) ALL of Israel Romans 11:26-27. And this is because they (Israel the elected) are beloved on account of their forefathers. Romans 11:29. And I do SEE that God has consigned all to disobedience so that he may have mercy on all. romans 11:32. If some of Israel died heardened, which a lot did in 70ad, how can God save (take away the sins of) all of Israel? ( this saving of Israel will take place after the fullness of the gentiles has completed. Has the fullness been completed yet?) so to come full circle, romans 9 is not discussing specific post death eternal destinies, only the purpose of vessels of wrath and vessels of mercy for here on earth. And if the vessels of wrath are used to bring salvation to the gentiles, how much greater will it be when the vessels of wrath are saved. I would say pretty great as Paul goes on to praise God after revealing this mystery romans 11:33-36

The problem I have with suggesting destruction means something occurring in this life is that the wicked do not always seem to get anything approaching justice for their deeds in this life. So I have a problem suggesting Romans is talking about this life alone. Especially since this life alone is not the end of our existence. The next life is a continuation of our existence.

Few of the UR supporters I have encountered here at CF are willing to suggest Satan and his fallen angels get reconciled eventually. However to me, that outcome is the only thing that makes sense if the position is God must eventually bring all humans to eternal happiness. So if a UR supporter does properly have Satan and the fallen angels spending eternity in torment, it is difficult for me to see why they think humans who turn their backside to God in this life (a rebellion) would not get the same treatment for eternity - as vessels of destruction.

What would be the cause of a pot asking God why He had made them this way, if they really were not made to remain that way?

 

[trackstacks]

I think there are many people who just don't get it, they see no reason to believe, they don't believe there is a God or an afterlife but they don't have an ax to grind against those who do. Its hard to swallow a God who creates people just so he can deep fry them forever.

 

[Albion]

I think there are many people who just don't get it, they see no reason to believe, they don't believe there is a God or an afterlife but they don't have an ax to grind against those who do. Its hard to swallow a God who creates people just so he can deep fry them forever.

But if we state the situation correctly, how does it sound to your ears to say that there is a God who promises to save some people from out of a total population that otherwise would either be extinguished at death or suffer in the afterlife by knowing what they'd missed out on?

 

[DrBubbaLove]

I think there are many people who just don't get it, they see no reason to believe, they don't believe there is a God or an afterlife but they don't have an ax to grind against those who do. Its hard to swallow a God who creates people just so he can deep fry them forever.

As it should be hard to swallow any lie. Satan and his band of angels put themselves in "fryer" and so would any human remaining in rebellion against God through their temporal life on earth.

All I need imagine in that respect is a Just God Who would grant them their dying wish to be left alone by Him and grant it eternally.

 

[claninja]

The problem I have with suggesting destruction means something occurring in this life is that the wicked do not always seem to get anything approaching justice for their deeds in this life. So I have a problem suggesting Romans is talking about this life alone. Especially since this life alone is not the end of our existence. The next life is a continuation of our existence.

Few of the UR supporters I have encountered here at CF are willing to suggest Satan and his fallen angels get reconciled eventually. However to me, that outcome is the only thing that makes sense if the position is God must eventually bring all humans to eternal happiness. So if a UR supporter does properly have Satan and the fallen angels spending eternity in torment, it is difficult for me to see why they think humans who turn their backside to God in this life (a rebellion) would not get the same treatment for eternity - as vessels of destruction.

What would be the cause of a pot asking God why He had made them this way, if they really were not made to remain that way?

Let's look at the context of why he is writing romans 9. Romans 9:1-5 states that Paul has great sorrow for his fellow Israelites(according to flesh) and wishes he could be cut off from Christ for their sake. He says that theirs (Israelites according to flesh) is the adoption, the promises, glory, etc.... and from them came the Christ.

So the whole context of Romans 9 is about the unbelieving Jewish nation. Many of the Jews are doubting and wondering if God has failed his chosen people, as a lot of their fellow Jewish kinsman have not believed in Christ.

Israel becomes hardened (vessel of wrath) for the sake of the gentiles ( vessels of mercy)

This is why the pot ( unbelieving Jewish nation) is asking why it was it was made this way, especially if God has predetermined this.

However as romans 11 states very clearly and plainly, Israel will not be cut off forever, eventually all Israel will be saved.

Paul wanted so bad to be with christ: to live is christ to die is gain. why would he state he would be "eternally" cut off from christ for israels sake if all of Israel is going to be saved anyway?

Context is key, we cannot just pull out a verse and say eternal bliss or eternal torment, especially when those words are not even in the passages. Reading romans 9-11 in its entirety gives us a much clearer idea on what Paul is actually talking about.

 

[DrBubbaLove]

Let's look at the context of why he is writing romans 9. Romans 9:1-5 states that Paul has great sorrow for his fellow Israelites(according to flesh) and wishes he could be cut off from Christ for their sake. He says that theirs (Israelites according to flesh) is the adoption, the promises, glory, etc.... and from them came the Christ.

So the whole context of Romans 9 is about the unbelieving Jewish nation. Many of the Jews are doubting and wondering if God has failed his chosen people, as a lot of their fellow Jewish kinsman have not believed in Christ.

Israel becomes hardened (vessel of wrath) for the sake of the gentiles ( vessels of mercy)

This is why the pot ( unbelieving Jewish nation) is asking why it was it was made this way, especially if God has predetermined this.

However as romans 11 states very clearly and plainly, Israel will not be cut off forever, eventually all Israel will be saved.

Paul wanted so bad to be with christ: to live is christ to die is gain. why would he state he would be "eternally" cut off from christ for israels sake if all of Israel is going to be saved anyway?

Context is key, we cannot just pull out a verse and say eternal bliss or eternal torment, especially when those words are not even in the passages. Reading romans 9-11 in its entirety gives us a much clearer idea on what Paul is actually talking about.

Since Saint Paul is writing to Christians, and principally non-Jewish Christians, personally I would think to properly construct any context framework it must start with that audience in mind. An audience very much aware of who Saint Paul is/was and who they are as vessels of mercy (regardless if they are Jewish converts to Christianity or Gentile.

In that context his compassionate expressions become what they are, a proper expression of a very personal and very compassionate concern for all souls. A concern that goes beyond personal concern for his own self. Which is what laying down one's own life in sacrifice for the lives of others is all about. Even if the desire to save others meant destruction of self - which it finally did for Saint Paul.

Context is key. Which is why seeing Israel as being the only people said to be vessels of wrath is flawed. Saint Paul in the same passage admits "not all" of those children of Abraham have been vessels of wrath, only those whose hearts have been hardened to the extent of never ceasing to attempt to rebel against Him.

Similarly Satan and all the fallen angels are also vessels of wrath, as opposed to angels who remained faithful to God, vessels of mercy. At least to the extent we know He made all angels knowing whether they would rebel or not, and those He knew would rebel anyway. They have no right to ask of Him either why did He make them that way (able to rebel).

 

[vinsight4u]

/nvm

 

[vinsight4u]

/nvm

 

[vinsight4u]

/nvm

 

[sdowney717]

There is no universal reconciliation, we are only reconciled by the applied blood of the Lamb.
The blood of a lamb was put over the doorpost in Egypt by believing jews during the 'passover' so the destroying angel would pass by that house.

In Acts 13, the apostles tell the blaspheming jews this, that they reject eternal life for themselves...
which means they wont have eternal life, no reconciliation for unbelievers.

44 On the next Sabbath almost the whole city came together to hear the word of God. 45 But when the Jews saw the multitudes, they were filled with envy; and contradicting and blaspheming, they opposed the things spoken by Paul. 46 Then Paul and Barnabas grew bold and said, “It was necessary that the word of God should be spoken to you first; but since you reject it, and judge yourselves unworthy of everlasting life, behold, we turn to the Gentiles. 47 For so the Lord has commanded us:

‘I have set you as a light to the Gentiles,
That you should be for salvation to the ends of the earth.’”

48 Now when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad and glorified the word of the Lord. And as many as had been appointed to eternal life believed.

Which means some were not appointed to eternal life, which means they will not be reconciled to God and are destined for hell.

 

[claninja]

Since Saint Paul is writing to Christians, and principally non-Jewish Christians, personally I would think to properly construct any context framework it must start with that audience in mind. An audience very much aware of who Saint Paul is/was and who they are as vessels of mercy (regardless if they are Jewish converts to Christianity or Gentile.

In that context his compassionate expressions become what they are, a proper expression of a very personal and very compassionate concern for all souls. A concern that goes beyond personal concern for his own self. Which is what laying down one's own life in sacrifice for the lives of others is all about. Even if the desire to save others meant destruction of self - which it finally did for Saint Paul.

Context is key. Which is why seeing Israel as being the only people said to be vessels of wrath is flawed. Saint Paul in the same passage admits "not all" of those children of Abraham have been vessels of wrath, only those whose hearts have been hardened to the extent of never ceasing to attempt to rebel against Him.

Similarly Satan and all the fallen angels are also vessels of wrath, as opposed to angels who remained faithful to God, vessels of mercy. At least to the extent we know He made all angels knowing whether they would rebel or not, and those He knew would rebel anyway. They have no right to ask of Him either why did He make them that way (able to rebel).

Sure lets say he is writing to 99 gentiles and 1 Jew in the context of Romans 9.

Romans 9:1-18 is about Gods divine election of certain peoples, Isaac, Jacob, pharaoh...for certain purposes.

Then romans 9:19-23 is about vessels of wrath and mercy. And Gods divine purpose for making them that way.

Then right after that, Romans9: 24-33 is about the inclusions of the gentiles and stumbling of the Jews.

There is your context. where is heaven or hell mentioned in there? Please cite specific verse and not personal thought . No one is arguing that there are not other vessels of wrath in other parts of the Bible. But these verses are specifially talking about Israel in the context of why some of them have hardened. We can't just stop at romans 9 and say look heaven and hell. WE MUST READ ON THROUGH ROMANS 11.

Yes, you are correct not all children of Abraham are vessels of wrath. God keeps himself a remnant just like in the times of Elijah. Paul explains this in romans 11. Paul himself is one of them. But he also says a partial hardening of Israel (vessels of wrath) has happened for the sake of the Gentiles (vessels of mercy).

"Hearts never ceasing to rebel against him"

please show me in romans 9-11 where it says this, because romans 11 states the exact opposite. That all Israel wi be saved. This is a revealed mystery! And how glorious it is!!

And finally Paul doesn't just say he would die for his fellow kinsman, he would be cut off from christ for them. So does that mean eternal hell or just temporary?

 

[ToBeLoved]

Yes, you are correct not all children of Abraham are vessels of wrath. God keeps himself a remnant just like in the times of Elijah. Paul explains this in romans 11. Paul himself is one of them. But he also says a partial hardening of Israel (vessels of wrath) has happened for the sake of the Gentiles (vessels of mercy).

The children of Abraham are EVERYONE who believes in Christ through faith

 

[claninja]

The children of Abraham are EVERYONE who believes in Christ through faith

Yes, you are correct.

Paul is explaining why a lot of Israel has a rejected christ and why the Gentiles are now included in Gods promises . Romans 11:28: as far as the gospel, they (Jews) are enemies for their sake (Gentiles), but as election, they (Jews) are beloved on account of the forefathers (Abraham, Isaac, Jacob).
God harderened Israel for the sake of the Gentiles. But Israel will not remained hardened forever. God will save all of Israel.

 

[DrBubbaLove]

Sure lets say he is writing to 99 gentiles and 1 Jew in the context of Romans 9.

Romans 9:1-18 is about Gods divine election of certain peoples, Isaac, Jacob, pharaoh...for certain purposes.

Then romans 9:19-23 is about vessels of wrath and mercy. And Gods divine purpose for making them that way.

Then right after that, Romans9: 24-33 is about the inclusions of the gentiles and stumbling of the Jews.

There is your context. where is heaven or hell mentioned in there? Please cite specific verse and not personal thought . No one is arguing that there are not other vessels of wrath in other parts of the Bible. But these verses are specifially talking about Israel in the context of why some of them have hardened. We can't just stop at romans 9 and say look heaven and hell. WE MUST READ ON THROUGH ROMANS 11.

Yes, you are correct not all children of Abraham are vessels of wrath. God keeps himself a remnant just like in the times of Elijah. Paul explains this in romans 11. Paul himself is one of them. But he also says a partial hardening of Israel (vessels of wrath) has happened for the sake of the Gentiles (vessels of mercy).

"Hearts never ceasing to rebel against him"

please show me in romans 9-11 where it says this, because romans 11 states the exact opposite. That all Israel wi be saved. This is a revealed mystery! And how glorious it is!!

And finally Paul doesn't just say he would die for his fellow kinsman, he would be cut off from christ for them. So does that mean eternal hell or just temporary?

Saint Paul is expressing the depth of love for his fellow Jews, nothing more. And being willing to sacrifice everything, EVERYTHING is a proper expression of love.

The fact God Himself depicts Jews in torment in the next life as result of personal judgement of this life should be enough for one to say when speaking of God making us, the only life that matters in an eternal one. By comparison to eternity this life is puff of wind. As the Apostles were fond of reminding us, if there is no afterlife fate based on this life, then our faith is in vain.

Am unclear on the concept of God selecting a group of people to be created temporarily wicked compared to others created for a perfection of faith to have them made righteous/justisfied/reconciled/saved. It creates two groups of people created for different purpose rather than one purpose - to know, serve, love God.

If this two groups of people were true, then the pot would have a right to demand WHY God created Him that way and not a better way. God would also be understood as not doing His very Best in creating them the way they are. Their wickedness becomes something we can lay at God's feet directly, rather than anything God could hold against them.

 

[DrBubbaLove]

Sure lets say he is writing to 99 gentiles and 1 Jew in the context of Romans 9.

Romans 9:1-18 is about Gods divine election of certain peoples, Isaac, Jacob, pharaoh...for certain purposes.

Then romans 9:19-23 is about vessels of wrath and mercy. And Gods divine purpose for making them that way.

Then right after that, Romans9: 24-33 is about the inclusions of the gentiles and stumbling of the Jews.

There is your context. where is heaven or hell mentioned in there? Please cite specific verse and not personal thought . No one is arguing that there are not other vessels of wrath in other parts of the Bible. But these verses are specifially talking about Israel in the context of why some of them have hardened. We can't just stop at romans 9 and say look heaven and hell. WE MUST READ ON THROUGH ROMANS 11.

Yes, you are correct not all children of Abraham are vessels of wrath. God keeps himself a remnant just like in the times of Elijah. Paul explains this in romans 11. Paul himself is one of them. But he also says a partial hardening of Israel (vessels of wrath) has happened for the sake of the Gentiles (vessels of mercy).

"Hearts never ceasing to rebel against him"

please show me in romans 9-11 where it says this, because romans 11 states the exact opposite. That all Israel wi be saved. This is a revealed mystery! And how glorious it is!!

And finally Paul doesn't just say he would die for his fellow kinsman, he would be cut off from christ for them. So does that mean eternal hell or just temporary?

As to what Romans 9-11 should be understood as saying, am thinking the man who wrote words like these (bold added):

"We know that God passes unerring judgement upon such lives; 3 and dost thou, friend, think to escape God’s judgement, thou who dost blame men for living thus, and art guilty of the same acts thyself?
He will award to every man what his acts have deserved; eternal life to those who have striven for glory, and honour, and immortality, by perseverance in doing good; 8 the retribution of his anger to those who are contumacious, rebelling against truth and paying homage to wickedness."​

And there is more in the opening of Romans along these same lines, all of which explains the writers position regarding the eternal fate of Christians verses Jews or verses Jewish Christians or Gentile Christians. As far as being happy or not in eternity, the positions of all those people the writer views as being the same, as either eternal suffering or eternal happiness as judged by God for deeds of this life.

And that intro to Romans to me is incompatible with the suggestion the Romans 9-11 is focused on this brief life only to the omission of any real judgement and attempting to suggest the wicked are wicked because God made them wicked for another purpose than those He makes righteous in this life. The writer rather insists regardless of Jew, Jewish Christian or Gentile Christian, the eternal fate (happiness or suffering) of everyone rests on living a life that passes God final judgement for our honor and glory.

 

[claninja]

Saint Paul is expressing the depth of love for his fellow Jews, nothing more. And being willing to sacrifice everything, EVERYTHING is a proper expression o"f love.

Romans 9:3 "For I could wish that myself were accursed from Christ for my brethren, my kinsmen according to the flesh". So this does NOT mean Paul is wishing to go to eternal hell instead of his fellow israelites?

As the Apostles were fond of reminding us, if there is no afterlife fate based on this life, then our faith is in vain.

Absolutely agree! If there is no resurrection of the dead then:
1 Corinthians 15:19 "If in this life only we have hope in Christ, we are of all men most miserable."

Am unclear on the concept of God selecting a group of people to be created temporarily wicked compared to others created for a perfection of faith to have them made righteous/justisfied/reconciled/saved. It creates two groups of people created for different purpose rather than one purpose - to know, serve, love God.

Ah, so much goodness in Romans 11. As you can see below, 2 groups of people: unbelieving Israel and the Gentiles. One group created as a vessel of destruction for for the sake of the vessel of mercy. Israel falls and is cast away that salvation and riches may come to the gentiles. Israel has been blinded for the sake of the gentiles. And how long will unbelieving Israel remain fallen, cast away, and blinded? eternally? everlasting? forever? forever and ever?

NO! temporarily: until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in

verse 11-12: I say then, Have they (unbelieving Israel) stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy. Now if the fall of them be the riches of the world, and the diminishing of them the riches of the Gentiles; how much more their (unbelieving Israel) fulness?

Verse 15: For if the casting away of them (unbelieving Israel) be the reconciling of the world , what shall the receiving of them be, but life from the dead?

Verse 25-26:
For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob

Verse 28: As concerning the gospel, they (unbelieving Israel) are enemies for your (gentiles) sakes: but as touching the election, they (unbelieving Israel) are beloved for the fathers' sakes.

If this two groups of people were true, then the pot would have a right to demand WHY God created Him that way and not a better way. God would also be understood as not doing His very Best in creating them the way they are. Their wickedness becomes something we can lay at God's feet directly, rather than anything God could hold against them.

What? Those created for temporal destruction in this life followed by everlasting joy in the next life have a right to demand why God created them, but those created for temporal destruction in this life followed by eternal destruction in the next do not? That's a very interesting view.

 

[claninja]

The problem I have with suggesting destruction means something occurring in this life is that the wicked do not always seem to get anything approaching justice for their deeds in this life.

1 Corinthians 5:5 "To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus."

 

[DrBubbaLove]

Romans 9:3 "For I could wish that myself were accursed from Christ for my brethren, my kinsmen according to the flesh". So this does NOT mean Paul is wishing to go to eternal hell instead of his fellow israelites?

No, I don't think any Apostle wanted to go to Hell.

Ah, so much goodness in Romans 11. As you can see below, 2 groups of people: unbelieving Israel and the Gentiles. One group created as a vessel of destruction for for the sake of the vessel of mercy. Israel falls and is cast away that salvation and riches may come to the gentiles. Israel has been blinded for the sake of the gentiles. And how long will unbelieving Israel remain fallen, cast away, and blinded? eternally? everlasting? forever? forever and ever?

NO! temporarily: until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in

verse 11-12: I say then, Have they (unbelieving Israel) stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy. Now if the fall of them be the riches of the world, and the diminishing of them the riches of the Gentiles; how much more their (unbelieving Israel) fulness?

Verse 15: For if the casting away of them (unbelieving Israel) be the reconciling of the world , what shall the receiving of them be, but life from the dead?

Verse 25-26:
For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob

Verse 28: As concerning the gospel, they (unbelieving Israel) are enemies for your (gentiles) sakes: but as touching the election, they (unbelieving Israel) are beloved for the fathers' sakes.

yes this is a UR claim. I do not see that claim based on Romans 9-11 consistent with what is written in the first 8 chapters.

What? Those created for temporal destruction in this life followed by everlasting joy in the next life have a right to demand why God created them, but those created for temporal destruction in this life followed by eternal destruction in the next do not? That's a very interesting view.

Apples and oranges. My view we are all grapes (Jews and Gentiles=everyone), made with the same purpose and same choices. The view as presented is muddled in that many of the Israelites were declared righteous before Jesus day and initially most of the early Christian Church were converted Jews. So it is not like all Jews rejected God.

We were all created humans. God made us to share in His Eternal Happiness, which means we can only be truly happy doing that. Sin presents an obstacle to that existence, which is why we live in the world as it is now and why we die.

If nothing else happens to us, we would die in a state eternally unable to exist in the state He made us all to exist in, and it is only our choices in this life (starting with Adam) that gets us to that point (so no ability to blame God for making us able to make those choices, even to our own destruction).

So I said, in that view the pot who has made poor choices in this life (whether experiencing fully the temporal punishment for those choices or not) has no ability or right to ask God why He made them that way. God did not make them wicked, they made themselves wicked. (we all do in fact and so our lives abhorrent to Him as CS Lewis points out in the Problem of Pain).

In a view as presented in prior replies in this thread, one that says some people are made by God (for His Glory it was claimed) to be temporarily wicked and will receive no eternal punishment for that wickedness - only a temporal punishment. IOW God creates them same as everyone else but in some manner forces them be bad during this lifetime to demonstrate something (unclear to me what God needs them to be bad for). Those people would have a right to ask Him why He chose them to be bad and not righteous like other people.

So my point was the Roman's verses with the whole pot asking God why comments makes no sense in that view, because if I understood the point God did in fact make them do evil (hardens all the hearts) so He owes them an answer for why. It also rather begs the question for some of the lives of the wicked who seemingly suffer nothing like the lives of some of the righteous if at all.

 

[DrBubbaLove]

1 Corinthians 5:5 "To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus."

OK, we all die. So the position is the wicked person partying and living happy doing so their entire life gets to die (without seemingly having been punished for his deeds).
So that God will then save that person later in the next life. So when in that persons life with the imbalance of unpunished wicked deeds does Justice for those deeds get restored?

Is the position saying they get roasted for the proper cooking time after death to restore the balance of Justice and then they get saved?

 

[DrBubbaLove]

I think there are many people who just don't get it, they see no reason to believe, they don't believe there is a God or an afterlife but they don't have an ax to grind against those who do. Its hard to swallow a God who creates people just so he can deep fry them forever.

It is actually the wrong way to look at the situation. We all have the same choices. God knows the choices we will all make. He knows before He makes us who will respond in faith to His call. He gives those the Gift of Grace for that faith to be nurtured and it can endure for some of those to a positive eternal outcome (or not in the belief of some Christians). We are all born in a state that is hostile to a positive eternal outcome, so those who do not endure or will never respond in this life remain by their own choice in direct rebellion when they die.
The paradox is imaginary as it results as soon as our Creator decides to make rational creatures with the freedom to not choose to be what he made them to be. Not from His Creative act, but from the creative acts of those creatures - in willfully attempting of the making themselves something they are not. The punish of the reprobate then is giving them what they desired most in this life - their will be done - not His. And leaving them to that, essentially alone, is imagined a large part of what creates their eternal suffering. It is an eternal deprivation of what would otherwise be their eternal happiness and glory.

So a person that will never choose God is putting himself in the fryer so to speak when this life is over. The criminal before the judge does not get to say, you made me this way how can you sentence me - because the criminal freely chose to be that way - which is what they are being sentenced for.