Universal Reconciliation

[Der Alte]

I suppose you could start here:
1 Timothy 4:10 the Saviour of all men

Just a little info, I started learning to speak Greek the year that Elvis and I were stationed in Germany and formally studied both Biblical languages about a decade after that. What does the words pas, pan etc. mean in these passages?

Romans 1:8
(8) First, I thank my God through Jesus Christ for all of you, because your faith is being reported all over the world.​

Acts 24:5
(5) "We have found this man to be a troublemaker, stirring up riots among the Jews all over the world. He is a ringleader of the Nazarene sect

Romans 10:18
(18) But I ask: Did they not hear? Of course they did: "Their voice has gone out into all the earth, their words to the ends of the world."

Revelation 18:23
(23) The light of a lamp will never shine in you again. The voice of bridegroom and bride will never be heard in you again. Your merchants were the world's important people. By your magic spell all the nations were led astray.

Luke 12:30
(30) For all these things do the nations of the world seek after: and your Father knoweth that ye have need of these things.

John 12:19
(19) The Pharisees therefore said among themselves, Perceive ye how ye prevail nothing? behold, the world is gone after him.

Acts 19:27
(27) So that not only this our craft is in danger to be set at nought; but also that the temple of the great goddess Diana should be despised, and her magnificence should be destroyed, whom all Asia and the world worshippeth.

Colossians 1:6
(6) Which is come unto you, as it is in all the world; and bringeth forth fruit, as it doth also in you, since the day ye heard of it, and knew the grace of God in truth:

​

Still waiting for credible, verifiable, historical evidence that "world" does not mean the entire planet.

 

[John Hyperspace]

Still waiting for credible, verifiable, historical evidence that "world" does not mean the entire planet.

I'll go ahead and let you do that by posting:

John 1:29 The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world.

John 12:47 And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.

Looks like universal reconciliation is right again? "Save the world"? Or, does world not mean the entire planet?

John 12:19 The Pharisees therefore said among themselves, Perceive ye how ye prevail nothing? behold, the world is gone after him.

 

[DrBubbaLove]

I suppose you could start here:

1 Timothy 4:10 the Saviour of all men

Is the lifeguard at the beach not suppose to save all people, so the lifeguard of all men on his beach?

 

[DrBubbaLove]

Not that I know of. The scripture is pretty clear there are vessels of wrath.

OK good. Then how does UR explain having two groups of people meeting different ends that serve very different purpose for God, when there are really only one group of people all serving the same purpose?
What Wrath is shown if everyone gets Mercy?
What Power of God can be said demonstrated if it is claimed never to be demonstrated?
What destruction can be said to occur as a demonstration of Power and Wrath, if it is true no one experiences what ever that is understood to mean?

Since nothing was remarked on my statements about the real harm UR does God's reputation is there agreement on that point or was the suggestion any opposed to UR ruin His reputation an unsupportable claim?

 

[Albion]

So you're changing "Saviour of all" to "only some".

If I were doing that, I'd have said so.

you're wanting me to believe a person can be called "Saviour" and not save; which is not what the word means.

Whew. Where did I ever say anything like that?

For the record, if anyone at all is saved by God, God is a Savior.

But I should also make this point: You have pegged your entire argument to the idea that you can translate these several words from the original language...but that almost no one else in the whole Christian world, all the Bible scholars and linguists and theologians for almost two thousand years of whatever Christian denomination, can.

How do you account for something so remarkable...and why would we here think that--if given the choice between the two sides--good sense says to take yours rather than that of the overwhelming majority of Christian scholars?? This is NOT like faith vs works or Scripture vs traditions. You know, religious controversies that have actually divided Christians for centuries.

 

[vinsight4u]

/nvm

 

[vinsight4u]

/nvm

 

[vinsight4u]

/nvm

 

[Der Alte]

I'll go ahead and let you do that by posting:
John 1:29 The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world.
John 12:47 And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Looks like universal reconciliation is right again? "Save the world"? Or, does world not mean the entire planet?
John 12:19 The Pharisees therefore said among themselves, Perceive ye how ye prevail nothing? behold, the world is gone after him.

I'm still waiting for credible, verifiable, historical evidence that shows the world, the whole world, all the world, the ends of the earth etc. does not mean the entire planet, in the passages below? Unsupported assumptions/presuppositions are not credible evidence.

John 12:19 The Pharisees therefore said among themselves, Perceive ye how ye prevail nothing? behold, the world is gone after him.
Romans 1:8
(8) First, I thank my God through Jesus Christ for all of you, because your faith is being reported all over the world.
Acts 24:5
(5) "We have found this man to be a troublemaker, stirring up riots among the Jews all over the world. He is a ringleader of the Nazarene sect
Romans 10:18
(18) But I ask: Did they not hear? Of course they did: "Their voice has gone out into all the earth, their words to the ends of the world."
Revelation 18:23
(23) The light of a lamp will never shine in you again. The voice of bridegroom and bride will never be heard in you again. Your merchants were the world's important people. By your magic spell all the nations were led astray.
Luke 12:30
(30) For all these things do the nations of the world seek after: and your Father knoweth that ye have need of these things.
John 12:19
(19) The Pharisees therefore said among themselves, Perceive ye how ye prevail nothing? behold, the world is gone after him.
Acts 19:27 There is danger not only that our trade will lose its good name, but also that the temple of the great goddess Artemis will be discredited; and the goddess herself, who is worshiped throughout the province of Asia and the world, will be robbed of her divine majesty."
Colossians 1:6 that has come to you. In the same way, the gospel is bearing fruit and growing throughout the whole world—just as it has been doing among you since the day you heard it and truly understood God's grace. ​

Once while I was researching the context of a "proof text" of a certain group I ran across this passage.
Note this passage from Jeremiah. God said “I have caused to cleave” That word is הדבקתי/ha’dabaq’thi. It is in the perfect or completed sense. God’s will, expressly stated, for the whole house of Israel and Judah, was for all of Israel and all of Judah to cling to God as a belt clings to a man’s waist. It was done, finished, completed, in God’s sight, and, according to some arguments presented, nothing man can do will cause God’s will to not be done. But they, Israel and Judah, would not hear and obey, their will, vs. God’s will, So God destroyed them, vs. 14.
God stated very clearly what His will was, in terms that cannot be misunderstood. But, because the Israelites would not hear, and obey, God destroyed them, instead of them being unto God, “for a people, and for a name, and for a praise, and for a glory, vs. 10.”

Jeremiah 13:1-14
1 Thus saith the LORD unto me, Go and get thee a linen girdle, and put it upon thy loins, and put it not in water.
2 So I got a girdle according to the word of the LORD, and put it on my loins.
3 And the word of the LORD came unto me the second time, saying,
4 Take the girdle that thou hast got, which is upon thy loins, and arise, go to Euphrates, and hide it there in a hole of the rock.
5 So I went, and hid it by Euphrates, as the LORD commanded me.
6 And it came to pass after many days, that the LORD said unto me, Arise, go to Euphrates, and take the girdle from thence, which I commanded thee to hide there.
7 Then I went to Euphrates, and digged, and took the girdle from the place where I had hid it: and, behold, the girdle was marred, it was profitable for nothing.
8 Then the word of the LORD came unto me, saying,
9 Thus saith the LORD, After this manner will I mar the pride of Judah, and the great pride of Jerusalem.
10 This evil people, which refuse to hear my words, which walk in the imagination of their heart, and walk after other gods, to serve them, and to worship them, shall even be as this girdle, which is good for nothing.
11 For as the girdle cleaveth to the loins of a man,
so have I caused to cleave [הדבקתי/ha’dabaq’thi] unto me the whole house of Israel and the whole house of Judah, saith the LORD; that they might be unto me for a people, and for a name, and for a praise, and for a glory: but they would not hear.
· · ·
14 And I will dash them one against another, even the fathers and the sons together, saith the LORD: I will not pity, nor spare, nor have mercy, but destroy them.​

Although God said "have I caused to cleave [הדבקתי/ha’dabaq’thi] unto me the whole house of Israel and the whole house of Judah that they might be unto me for a people, and for a name, and for a praise, and for a glory: Note, verse 14, God said I will not pity, nor spare, nor have mercy, but destroy them

 

[claninja]

OK good. Then how does UR explain having two groups of people meeting different ends that serve very different purpose for God, when there are really only one group of people all serving the same purpose?
What Wrath is shown if everyone gets Mercy?
What Power of God can be said demonstrated if it is claimed never to be demonstrated?
What destruction can be said to occur as a demonstration of Power and Wrath, if it is true no one experiences what ever that is understood to mean?

Since nothing was remarked on my statements about the real harm UR does God's reputation is there agreement on that point or was the suggestion any opposed to UR ruin His reputation an unsupportable claim?

I'm not arguing for universalism here, but when reading through Romans 9 I don't see any mention of eternal bliss or torment after death for the vessels of mercy and wrath, respectively. Unless, you can point it out with specific verses, I don't see any mention of afterlife in Romans 9 at all. Based on the text, it appears to be about God's sovereign election for earth bound purposes. Isaac was the chosen seed, not Ishmael. Jacob was chosen over Esau. God rose up pharaoh and then hardened his heart. If the context of all these examples that paul gives are earthbound, I would argue that so are the vessels of mercy and wrath. The jews (those who rejected Christ)/ vessels of wrath were about to be cut off (70 AD) and church (believing jews and gentiles) /vessels of mercy was about to be grafted in. Christ predicts this and paul talks about this in Romans 11.

 

[vinsight4u]

/nvm

 

[claninja]

The vessels of mercy are prepared unto glory.

I'd say that's a possible explanation.

So here is what your basically saying then if wrath means hell and glory means heaven:

After death, the predestined vessels of wrath (ANYONE who God molded into unbelief) are in the eternal fires of hell in order to make known how good God is to the predestined vessels of mercy (those who God molded into belief) in eternal heaven (glory).

Again, that is possible, but based on the surrounding texts, I'd argue the unbelieving jews are the vessels of wrath, the destruction is done by the roman army in 70 AD and this made known to the remnant, believing jews and gentiles who" fled to the mountains". Paul clearly states in Romans 11 the unbelieving jews would be cut off and the gentiles grafted in. "that hardness in part to Israel hath happened till the fulness of the nations may come in". Some of the jews were not happy about the inclusion of gentiles into God's promises.

So again, if you can show me where the text of Romans 9 SPECIFICIALLY talks about the eternal destinies of men post death, that would be greatly appreciated. Again I'm NOT trying to argue for universalism

 

[DrBubbaLove]

I'm not arguing for universalism here, but when reading through Romans 9 I don't see any mention of eternal bliss or torment after death for the vessels of mercy and wrath, respectively. Unless, you can point it out with specific verses, I don't see any mention of afterlife in Romans 9 at all. Based on the text, it appears to be about God's sovereign election for earth bound purposes. Isaac was the chosen seed, not Ishmael. Jacob was chosen over Esau. God rose up pharaoh and then hardened his heart. If the context of all these examples that paul gives are earthbound, I would argue that so are the vessels of mercy and wrath. The jews (those who rejected Christ)/ vessels of wrath were about to be cut off (70 AD) and church (believing jews and gentiles) /vessels of mercy was about to be grafted in. Christ predicts this and paul talks about this in Romans 11.

A nice thought perhaps. Indeed true that Romans does not tell us what destruction means.
The problem I have with such discussions is that it undermines the context in which the verse is given, especially from a view that insists God has to totally forgive/overlook/not see all sin. I do not see that supported when the writers pens something like before the verse already given:

"I will shew mercy to whom I will shew mercy, and I will feel compassion for whom I will feel compassion."​

And the following that with the idea that some will have mercy and others destruction, makes no sense to me as simply a temporal demonstration of God's Power, it is either true He is Just, Love, Mercy, and Power or not. I do not see one trait as having to bow to another to suit my idea of a human father's love for his child.

And the same passage goes on before making the statement in question. Stating that we are talking about a pot whose heart is hardened to the Pot Maker and never changes. Rather anticipating in my view of a question what about Love and Mercy, a question is then asked is really valid for the pot to ask "why have thou (God - Pot Maker) made me this way" and the answer is given the pot has no right as the Maker can make one for honor just as He can make one for dishonor. If none are made for real dishonor in any temporal sense, then I fail to see what the point is pretending there is any dishonor that could be of any consequence. Because the writer would have to be understood as God making someone's heart hard, only temporarily to demonstrate a point. UR also dissolves any sense of talking about predestination as every one has the exact same destination. Yet most of us believe in some form of predestination.

And the answer to whether the pot made for destruction asking of God why make me with a hardened heart, this is given:

Or has not the potter authority over the clay, out of the same lump to make one vessel to honour, and another to dishonour?"​

Furthermore I only copied the first part of the sentence and not the closing part:

vessels of mercy, which he had before prepared for glory, us, whom he has also called, not only from amongst the Jews, but also from amongst the nations?​

Which if am to accept UR, God calls everyone AND eventually gives everyone the gift of faith to just be able to respond to that call. So the idea of being "before prepared for glory" as being understood before the Potter even molded the creature is instantly dissolved into thin air if I am suppose to understand the Potter before He made anybody decided not only is everyone made for glory, but everyone will make it to have glory. So what if if a pot doesn't get it as soon as another pot.
Cannot see in this UR view any lasting distinction, much less real dishonor, between two groups of pots if there is no real distinction to be known by God alone before He made us and also no lasting dishonor for anybody.
Leaving this with the closing thoughts of Romans 9 which also make no sense if there is no real and eternal sense of destruction. No sting of death for that matter or need to win a victory over that if no one is eternally separated from God.

"And according as Esaias said before, Unless the Lord of hosts had left us a seed, we had been as Sodom, and made like even as Gomorrha."
​

And the writer goes in the next part of the letter to confirm we are talking about salvation here. Which makes no sense to speak of in just a temporal sense, especially when he asks and shows people who will be saved (have been shown Mercy) and those who will not be saved (shown God's Wrath).

 

[claninja]

The problem I have with such discussions is that it undermines the context in which the verse is given, especially from a view that insists God has to totally forgive/overlook/not see all sin.

And the following that with the idea that some will have mercy and others destruction, makes no sense to me as simply a temporal demonstration of God's Power, it is either true He is Just, Love, Mercy, and Power or not. I do not see one trait as having to bow to another to suit my idea of a human father's love for his child.And the same passage goes on before making the statement in question.

So if destruction is not eternal, that means God overlooks sin? What about israel? they got punished with destruction multiple times in the OT due to their sins, and dishonored a lot. I would argue God did not overlook their sin.

If none are made for real dishonor in any temporal sense, then I fail to see what the point is pretending there is any dishonor that could be of any consequence. Because the writer would have to be understood as God making someone's heart hard, only temporarily to demonstrate a point. UR also dissolves any sense of talking about predestination as every one has the exact same destination. Yet most of us believe in some form of predestination.

I think this is what you are saying, correct me if i'm wrong:
If no one is made for dishonor here on earth, then dishonor doesn't mean anything.
Not really following you with that one, sorry.
Also, you keep bringing up UR. I'm not arguing for or against that. There are much better verses than romans 9 that are against UR like 2 Thess 1:9, where paul uses the phrase eternal destruction. No eternal destruction is mentioned in Romans 9.

And the writer goes in the next part of the letter to confirm we are talking about salvation here.

his supplication in romans 10 is for the salvation of israel specifically.

 

[DrBubbaLove]

So if destruction is not eternal, that means God overlooks sin? What about israel? they got punished with destruction multiple times in the OT due to their sins, and dishonored a lot. I would argue God did not overlook their sin.

No, overlooking or not being able to "see" is a rather uniquely Protestant sort of expression - at least many Baptists - probably others. But am not sure am qualified to address an answer to someone who appears to want to suggest this life represents a reality where everyone receives complete Justice/Punishment/Wrath for their sins - whether Christian or not [clarifying - such that everyone is immediately happy in the next life eternally]. The only real vision of the next life God Himself gave us in person depicts two opposing fates, eternal happiness and eternal suffering. Convenient in this case because both examples directly addressed are Jewish men, but Jesus gave no reason for me to think that there were not "other people" besides Jews already in the same two places. Properly speaking we would call those departed souls.

So any punishment they are now said to be getting (as He depicted it) cannot be complete because until the resurrection of all the dead, those souls are not experience punishment as the complete human that did the deed. Justice would rather demand the entire human experience the punishment, because a human did the "crime" being punished

As I cannot imagine this being true for most of us including myself, then for me the balance of whatever is punishment should come my way for my wicked deeds must be handed out in the next life since it was lacking or maybe incomplete in this one. If that is true of myself, and I can imagine people more wicked than me, am unclear why I should think Justice would demand anything different.

I think this is what you are saying, correct me if i'm wrong:
If no one is made for dishonor here on earth, then dishonor doesn't mean anything.
Not really following you with that one, sorry.

We are made to love, serve and know God. Because we were made to do that, it would only be doing that in the fullest sense which would make us most happy/greatest joy. Because of our own nature and the earth being corrupted by sin, this life currently presents significant barriers/limits on our ability both to do that and also be happy. Just one example, even the holiest among us can suffer horribly. Anyway, the point being this life itself as it currently is, presents a barrier or limit to our fully living as we were made to live, certainly in respect to being full of joy and sharing in His eternal Happiness.
So no, in that regard we cannot consider a discussion of Saint Paul directed at people he says are called by God, answered the call and saved by God's Mercy are experiencing eternal happiness already, at least not in any rational full sense of His eternal Happiness/Joy.
And Saint Paul contrasts those Christians with unrighteous people, people not called. In mentioning the Jews he correctly points out some of them are righteous too, but others not - so those unrighteous Jews will not all reap what was offered as a special Grace to just that race of humans either.

So by the time we start to consider the "vessels of wrath" statement it seems rather odd for me to look at that as just a temporary condition in this life (temporal) for any unrighteous people. Especially in light of the way Jesus Himself depicted the fate of unrighteous people.

So yeah, if the tea pot is made for dishonor - it is addressing the fact that God knew before He made any of us how we would serve the purpose for which He made mankind. So the unrighteous have the same purpose but do not serve it and He knows no matter how all the contingencies play out - they will never willingly serve that purpose. But He makes them anyway - which gets to the whole do they have a right to demand to know why God made them so that they could never choose to live as humans should live.

Also, you keep bringing up UR. I'm not arguing for or against that. There are much better verses than romans 9 that are against UR like 2 Thess 1:9, where paul uses the phrase eternal destruction. No eternal destruction is mentioned in Romans 9.


his supplication in romans 10 is for the salvation of israel specifically.

Am aware of your position and other verses.

The one [verse] I raised takes a different approach and is usually used to defend predestination. Just thought it much harder to twist since there is no real concept of predestination with UR because there is only one eternal destination - and an eternal destination would be the only one that really matters. Any layovers before reaching an eternal destination are only fleeting in comparison to eternity. Also because we are made to exist after each of our creation in a womb eternally, so it seems impossible to me to speak of real dishonor or predestination unless it is eternal.

IOW, If one makes it to Heaven to be so "honored" eternally, then it seems the idea of someone being dishonored some, most or even all of this life in comparison to an eternal honor they eventually receive is really no dishonor at all. A person having lived a wicked life, then said (no matter how it is imagined to occur) to be redeemed in the
life to "honor" eternally makes any dishonor for the wickedness in this life like a speck of dust. That is what I meant in saying it makes dishonor mean nothing.[/verse]

 

[vinsight4u]

/nvm

 

[vinsight4u]

/nvm

 

[vinsight4u]

/nvm

 

[DrBubbaLove]

The situation is as if - not that it is true as to God made
some people destined for wrath and others for glory.
Just that as God He would and does have the right to do
what He wants. But if a person hardens their heart over and over again and ends up dying as a non-believer, I don't see where the Scriptures show they can ever have mercy. They died in their sin. Jesus Christ is the Light -the Way - and the lake of fire is noted as - outer darkness/mist of darkness and blackness- or at least these other phrases seem to all be showing the same place. The OT tells as to some wicked after they die -they shall never see light. We were told that Judas killed himself and went to his own place. This to me sounds like his soul lived on. Man can kill the body but not the soul. There are other verses as such as 2 Timothy 2:20
that refer to vessels and honour and dishonour.

People are in hell now as to their souls in torments. Someday, they will have bodies again, yet we are told in Isaiah 66:24 that carcases are seen and their worm dieth not.
Somebody, not sure what thread posted a bunch of
comments as to what some from the days of the early church had written.....and I was amazed to see that some think the body parts get eaten and/or burned up repeatedly. The parts just keep coming back and this goes on and on for eternity. One person even told that the worm -is a fiery worm. A worm that just keeps bursting forth from the body. One thing that has bugged me for a long time is at the end of Isaiah 66 it did not say that the those viewing the wickeds heard them screaming or any sounds from them. It did say that the
ones in flesh that look upon them are abhorred. This is the time of the new earth. It seems that the inherited eternal life people will have to go at times and view the wickeds in the lake of fire area/Jordan. To inherit the kingdom, Scripture is clear that a person must have their name in /not blotted out of the book of life.

And it has to be a little more than this when we throw in Omnipotence. God would have to know when He created people who would never freely choose to be who they were made to be. Which is why they have no right in judgement to ask 'Why" or declare that "You" (God) made me this way. Part of the idea of predestination being necessary is acknowledging God not only knows how all our lives play out, He is Just and must deal with a Judgement of our life since we all tend to rebel.

That judgement is depicted as beginning to occur as soon as we die and it is completed in terms completing a Judgement in a process of making everything right/new again. So we have various ideas about predestination, several forms of which the Catholic Church teaches are acceptable and several unacceptable, along with unacceptable associated ideas like total depravity.

 

[claninja]

"The situation is as if - not that it is true as to God made
some people destined for wrath and others for glory."

Actually it is true that God destined some for destruction. The entire chapter of romans 11 talks about this. Romans 11:7-10. God elected a remnant of Israel for himself by grace and hardened the rest. Vessels of mercy vs vessels of wrath. And why does God do this? Romans 11:11 so that by their trespass, Salvation may come to the Gentiles. Romans 17:11-24 explains that God cut off the natural branches to graft in unnatural branches. God predestined all of this to happen. None of this happened by mistake. But we're not finished with the whole story yet.

"But if a person hardens their heart over and over again and dies in their sin, don't see in the scriptures anywhere where they can have mercy"

Well, I don't SEE where Romans 9 mentions specific post death eternal destinies of mankind, which is the original question. However I do SEE that God will save(take away sins) ALL of Israel Romans 11:26-27. And this is because they (Israel the elected) are beloved on account of their forefathers. Romans 11:29. And I do SEE that God has consigned all to disobedience so that he may have mercy on all. romans 11:32. If some of Israel died heardened, which a lot did in 70ad, how can God save (take away the sins of) all of Israel? ( this saving of Israel will take place after the fullness of the gentiles has completed. Has the fullness been completed yet?) so to come full circle, romans 9 is not discussing specific post death eternal destinies, only the purpose of vessels of wrath and vessels of mercy for here on earth. And if the vessels of wrath are used to bring salvation to the gentiles, how much greater will it be when the vessels of wrath are saved. I would say pretty great as Paul goes on to praise God after revealing this mystery romans 11:33-36