Universal Reconciliation

[DrBubbaLove]

If he doesn't give faith to everyone that is not fair, especially if our choices have eternal consequences.

As I said, knowing what He knows, how are lives play out, even in all the possibly contingencies; this is not a question of fairness. Am not sure how it would be more fair to give everyone the same gift knowing absolutely without doubt what some of them will always do with that gift no matter how many times it is given. In fact with a gift that came at such a high price, that would not be what I would expect someone honoring or valuing that gift would do it as it is simply tossing it away.
No, the better question to me is why does is it given to someone who will only cherish it for a while before throwing it away. And the only answer making sense to me is it proves some of mankind, even though free to do so will not throw it away. So to His Glory this is done because it magnifies the reward of glory, honor, immortality of those enduring in keeping that gift.

Correct that some people demand God prove Himself to Him. But our Maker does not want the kind of Love driven by fear - as that is not the greatest sort of love to be had. Besides, He rather literally showed in His making Himself very real for people, that even if He were to make the rocks cry out there would people that would say NO, my way not Your Way. And again, we can point to Adam that had the best opportunity any of us could have and blew it anyway.
[/quote]harden
Wait, so now God does harden people into unbelief?[/quote] Not quite. They harden themselves in most cases, just as we can harden our conscious against belief, just as Adam, Judas and Saint Peter himself did to be able to do what they did.

I would allow God could interfere in human affairs for His Purpose. He did so with Abraham and Moses after him. As in for example the Egyptian Pharaoh dealing with Moses said to be "hardened" in order to fully demonstrate to His People (the FaithFul ones anyway) much as He did for Abraham, that they have been give a faith to believe in God of Might, Power and of Promise.

I think were just going in circles. So i'll just leave it at that. God bless friend. We may have different views of scripture but i know we can both agree we can be so very grateful for Christ. Happy belated easter.

Thank you for the blessing. I enjoyed the celebration of our Hope.
If we are said to be going in circles, it was not helped by may saying something and having it said I said something opposite. So if we end this, I hope at least to have made it understood the Catholic position is not that we can work to obtain faith. In fact I never really touched on what good works can do for us.

I also think some of the "circles" is just a failure to understand or want to understand a view which does not use words the same way to mean the same thing. If we do not understand first what another means by being "saved" or if they use terms like "justified" or "made righteous" or "sanctification" ....etc. then it is very easy to be running in circles. I have some advantage in that I am very familiar with both sides of this having been an evangelical most of my life.

In the end of it to, I think it presumptuous of me to assume we cannot lose something that Adam lost when he was setup far better than we are, let alone without the tendency we have to screw up. Absent God giving us something to help us avoid screwing up, am unclear how we ca be saved at all or be said to remain that way - since in my mind the Apostles did not remain that way when He needed them the most and I must view their state superior to my own, even before He Arose.

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

the Apostles did not remain that way when He needed them the most and I must view their state superior to my own, even before He Arose.

True, they were in much better position than people the last 1800 years .

Generally.

But they - the faithful Apostles and faithful disciples did learn how to live from Jesus and form the Father in heaven, and taught the other disciples likewise,
and
like millions of martyrs since them ,

they finally died/ often were tortured, arrested and executed

without at all losing their peace and righteousness and joy in CHRIST JESUS. (rare today, even or especially in "peace time" and so-called "prosperity").

Few people are disciples ,
and few are making(training) disciples of Jesus today .

When / if / you can find them, they are just like the apostles and disciples were living in the New Testament, faithful, true, set apart, sanctified lives, and living like disciples in the Bible, by sheer grace in God's Plan and Purpose in Jesus.

 

[trackstacks]

If we see a 2 year old child toddling out into the pathway of a charging rhino and we pluck the child out of the way, the child had no clue of the impending disaster. Mankind is kinda like that

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

If we see a 2 year old child toddling out into the pathway of a charging rhino and we pluck the child out of the way, the child had no clue of the impending disaster. Mankind is kinda like that

YES ! Society is the rhino !

(except rhinos are more gentle and more kind than "man-kind")

 

[vinsight4u]

/nvm

 

[vinsight4u]

/nvm

 

[SusanD.]

Universal reconciliation. No greater doctrine of love and forgiveness exists. I ask that, for a moment, let's see if the scripture supports the doctrine of universal reconciliation. I will cite verses with brief comments. Imagine for a moment that these passages are all that exist in the scripture. If these passages were the only verses in scripture, would you not walk away thinking, "It's true; universal reconciliation is clearly true"?

Now, bear in mind, I'm not saying "Then it is true" (since these are not the only passages in scripture); but what I am saying is that, these passages are very clear support of the doctrine.

Hi.
Whilst some of those Bible verses seem to support your view, we can look at other Bible verses that give a clearer picture that 'universal reconciliation' - meaning that everyone will be reconciled to God - cannot be the meaning. Firstly, the Bible is clear that "God so loved the world that He gave His only Son..." (John 3:16) but even reading on to the following verses, God's word tells us that not all will receive salvation (from v.18 onwards):-
"Whoever believes in Him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God. 19And this is the judgment: the light has come into the world, and people loved the darkness rather than the light because their works were evil. 20For everyone who does wicked things hates the light and does not come to the light, lest his works should be exposed."
Now, one of the Bible verses you referenced, John 12:32 about drawing all unto Him, well the following verse after it clarifies that the main point of the Lord Jesus was that He was referring to the manner of death He would suffer, so the emphasis being on Him about to be hung up on the cross, therefore the words "draw all..." could be taken to mean those witnessing His crucifixion.
Further, there are numerous Bible verses that teach us God requires REPENTANCE:-
Jesus said "repent, for the kingdom of heaven is at hand" (Matthew 4:17)
Also several other references to the need for us to repent:- Matt.11:20; Mark 1:15; Mark 6:12, Luke 13:3,5; Acts 2:38; Acts 3:19.
I want to particularly highlight this:- "The times of ignorance God overlooked, but now He commands all people everywhere to repent" (Acts 17:30). Would God really bring everyone into His kingdom without the need for repentance?

Matthew 25 highlights God's judgement. The Lord Jesus particularly spoke about all nations being gathered before His throne (clearly in the context of judgement), and that God will separate the 'sheep' from the 'goats' - those who followed Christ, from those who were disobedient. Sheep follow their Shepherd, goats' behaviour is different:- What Is the Difference Between Sheep and Goats?
It is important that we take seriously what the Lord Jesus said - if He has told us about this separation, why should we interpret the Bible verses you have quoted to mean that all people will be reconciled?
Certainly God is merciful and compassionate, as shown throughout the Holy Bible, but He is also holy and a judge, also as shown in the Bible.

 

[vinsight4u]

/nvm

 

[claninja]

Matthew 25 highlights God's judgement. The Lord Jesus particularly spoke about all nations being gathered before His throne (clearly in the context of judgment), and that God will separate the 'sheep' from the 'goats' - those who followed Christ, from those who were disobedient. Sheep follow their Shepherd, goats' behavior is different:- What Is the Difference Between Sheep and Goats?
It is important that we take seriously what the Lord Jesus said - if He has told us about this separation, why should we interpret the Bible verses you have quoted to mean that all people will be reconciled? Certainly God is merciful and compassionate, as shown throughout the Holy Bible, but He is also holy and a judge, also as shown in the Bible.

First we need to look at the context of the parable of the sheep and the goats.
When will the separation occur? When the son of man comes in his glory
What is being separated and why? Sheep and goats

In Matthew 23 Jesus denounces the scribes and Pharisees and prophecies coming destruction, then states their house will be forsaken and desolate. In Matthew 24 Jesus states the house (temple) will be completely destroyed. This (temple destruction) indicates judgment on Israel, as it did in the old testament. The full end of the age and the coming of Christ in glory and power (not 2nd coming) will occur during This generation (his audience). We can verify this with other passages in the new testament. Matthew 10:23 states that the disciples will not have gone through all the towns of Israel before the son of man comes. Hebrew 9:26 states that he (Jesus) has appeared once for all at the full end of the ages to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself. The parable of the sheep and goats closely parallels the wheat and the tares. When does the harvest occur? at the full end of the age. When will Christ gather the nations? at the full end of the age. And when does the full end of the age occur? During the generation of those Christ is speaking to.

The Sheep and goats are separated based on their works performed.

Israel tried to obtain righteousness by works through the law. Hence the goat's self righteous response "Lord, when did we see thee hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and did not minister to thee? They claimed to know God and have done the works required for righteousness, But they did it without faith

The sheep have an humble response "Lord, when did we see thee hungry and feed thee, or thirsty and give thee drink? 38 And when did we see thee a stranger and welcome thee, or naked and clothe thee? 39 And when did we see thee sick or in prison and visit thee?’ Paul states in romans 9:30 That Gentiles who did not pursue righteousness have attained it, that is, righteousness through faith." Hence it makes sense when the sheep do not recognize the good works they have done for God.

This whole scene of judgment seems to imply, based on the surrounding context, when the coming of the son of man will occur, and when the full end of the age will take place, that judgment is coming for Israel, while salvation is coming to "those who are not his people, he will call his people"

 

[claninja]

Any thoughts as to what 1 Timothy 6:9 is telling us?

"But they that will be rich fall into temptation...hurtful lusts...which drown men in destruction and perdition."

Riches are fleeting. The pursuit of wealth leads to the destruction of ones life, just as drugs will destroy an addicts life.

Destruction/whole ruination doesn't necessarily have to mean eternal hell.

The Greek word for perdition is olethron. This same word is found in 1corinthians 5:5. Where Paul says to deliver one unto Satan for the DESTRUCTION of the flesh, so that the spirit may be saved on the day of the lord.

If olethron means eternal hell, then this doesn't make any sense.

 

[vinsight4u]

/nvm

 

[vinsight4u]

/nvm

 

[claninja]

Matthew 24 swtiches to referring to heaven and earth shall pass away...that day...25:1 Then shall...ten virgins...sheep...goats...everlasting punishment.

It is about dividing up the just and unjust that are still alive at the end of the world, just ahead of the new earth is soon coming. What does bug me though, is what happens to the unborn babies and children at that time?

Mathew 5:18-19
"For truly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, not an iota, not a dot, will pass from the law until all is accomplished. 19 Whoever then relaxes one of the least of these commandments and teaches men so, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but he who does them and teaches them shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven."

If heaven and earth have not passed away, then Christ has not fulfilled the law and prophets. It would also appear that Paul is the least in the kingdom of heaven as he told believers to no longer circumcise. Peter would also be least in the kingdom of heaven as he could now eat all kinds of meat.

But... the old covenant (old heaven and old earth) has passed away and we are living in the new covenant (new heaven and new earth).

And again, when will Jesus separate the sheep and goats? when the son of man comes in his glory. And when does the son of man come in his glory? During his audience's generation.

"that day" refers to destruction of temple and end of the AGE, not end of the world as a whole.

 

[claninja]

I'm not finding that word for perdition. I think of how
Jesus Christ showed that Judas was lost - none of them is lost but the son of perdition.

Not finding it? I assure you it's there. Here is a tool that I use all for greek translation of the new testament: Online Greek Interlinear Bible

 

[vinsight4u]

/nvm

 

[vinsight4u]

/nvm

 

[vinsight4u]

/nvm

 

[claninja]

'

Wow! Thanks. I have not seen that site before and the one that I have used for years is no longer available. Look again at what word was used for "perdition", as you gave us the Greek word for "destruction" in 1 Timothy 6:9.

special day to you!

No problem. I love how they set it up and with pdf. And You're absolutely right. Thank you for the correction. Apoleia is translated as perdition and olethron as destruction. My apologies. So it would appear that the person who follows after wealth will be completely and utterly destroyed (olethron) and destroyed/cut off/waste (apoleia).
So let's see if I can get it right this time, but probably not completely as I am human
So Apoleia (perdition) is eternal hell. So the perfume in matthew 26:8 was sent to eternal hell?

 

[claninja]

Step back into Matthew 24:36
"But of that day and hour knoweth no man..."

What hour is this referring to? that day
So step back to find - that day and you land at Matthew 24:35 "Heaven and earth shall pass away..."
v36 - that day

That day is when the new earth is about to come. It is the day and hour that man does not know. Now, what is the timing for the parable of the ten virgins?

Matthew 25:13
"...ye know neither the day nor the hour..."
Same scenario just given back in Matthew 24 for when heaven and earth shall pass away.

Watch the way Matthew 25 begins. It shows you need the timing for it from chapter 24 timing.

Matthew 25:1 "Then shall....ten virgins..."
At the end of Matthew 24 it is speaking of the time when there will be gnashing of teeth, This is an end of the world
scene.
The things that happen to those after the sheep and goats judgment shows - sheep - righteous/into life eternal
goats - go away into everlasting punishment

All end of the world events, not the great tribulation, or long ago scenes.

Reading Mark 13 and Luke 21 where the parables were not
given to us can help show that the time has been changed to
referring to when heaven and earth shall pass away -watch.
The people at that time - the day and hour not known to man - will need to watch.

The wise virgins could not spare any of their lamp oil, because they did not know how much they would need. They
did not know the day nor the hour when heaven and earth shall pass away and they must therefore watch.

I would say all your points would be very valid if this was about the end of the world. But this is about the full end of the age. And we know from Hebrews 9:26 that Christ came at the full end of the age to put away sin through the sacrifice of himself.

The Jews and early church had no idea when the end of Israel and the old covenant was coming (temple destruction). Your right that no one knew that day or hour, but Jesus did give them signs to watch for: where the body is, there the eagles will be gathered together, the lesson of the fig tree, armies surrounding Jerusalem...
What were the purpose of these signs to the disciples if the world has not ended yet.

Again, Matthew 5:18-19. If heaven and earth did not pass away, Jesus did not fulfill the law and prophets. And whoever relaxes even one part of the law (Paul and circumcision), they will be the least in the kingdom of heaven.

 

[claninja]

Matthew 24 as to "this generation" shall not pass till//is referring to the generation that will see the signs from heaven and earth. Jesus Christ told His generation that they would not see signs from heaven and see only the sign of Jonas.

The scribes and Pharisees were asking for a sign from Jesus. Jesus said this generation will not be given a sign, only the sign of Jonah. However, Jesus did many signs and wonders in front of his disciples and followers. So I would say that some of Jesus' generation did receive signs.

So you are saying that "this generation" does not refer to Jesus' time, but a future generation yet to come?

Jesus Christ told in Matthew 24 of wars and rumours of wars and how that part would all come to pass, but the end is not yet.
What kind of wars did Jesus mean? I believe we find that out as we keep reading the verses and find that - Nation shall rise against nation -kingdom against kingdom. This time of world war will be followed by famines, earthquakes in diverse places, pestilences - and is the time of the beginning of sorrows.
The part that came to pass ahead of this world war was - be ye not troubled.

world wars come to pass first, then this one - as to the now be troubled

Jesus gave some very vague signs to watch for lol. There were earthquakes, famines, pestilence, and wars during the time of Jesus' generation. There was also the war that destroyed the temple in 70AD along with a lot of Jews, effectively destroying the following of the law and old covenant (true Judaism) for that last 2,000+ years, if not permanently.

According to Jesus in Matthew 5:
The OT law and prophecies will remain until heaven and earth pass away. If we teach anything contrary to the OT law, we will be the least in the kingdom of heaven or not even able to enter it.

If, according to you, heaven and earth have not passed away, then the OT law still remains, and therefore, Christians since the apostles having been teaching and doing a lot of things about the law incorrectly: example circumcision not required, eating all kinds of meat, no longer sacrificing as the temple is now destroyed. This means that Christ has accomplished/fulfilled nothing in the OT law or prophecies concerning him, and we (the apostles all the way to believers in our day) shall be pitied for we shall be least in the kingdom or not even able to enter it.