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Universal reconciliation

TheBarrd

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"Mmm. Why do you feel the ultimate fate of billions of unsaved men, women, and children is something "we cannot possibly know"? And if that is the way you truly feel, then why do you devote so much time to this thread?"
-- brixken7
.................


"As to the first point, it seems ludicrous to me that a bunch of sinners sits here, day after day, debating the fate of sinners.
Should we not be praying that He will have mercy on us all?
As to the second, the answer is simple.
I'm bored..."
-- TheBarrd
.................

As to your question, "Should we not be praying that (God) will have mercy on us all?" -- the answer is NO. Definitely NOT. That's an insult to the character of God. He already says in His Word that He delights in mercy (Micah 7:18)!

Do you know anyone that does that?
God says He does!
Do you believe Him?

He does not retain His anger (Micah 7:18; Psalm 103:9; Isaiah 57:16) and His mercy does not cease with one's death, but it continues "for the eon(s)" (Psalm 136; Concordant version). "He is kind unto the unthankful and to the evil" (Luke 6:35).

"For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that He might have mercy upon all" (Romans 11:32). Both Jews and Gentiles.

"The Lord is good to all, and His tender mercies are over all His works" (Psalm 145:9).

Thus, we read that "All thy works shall praise thee, O Lord; and thy saints shall bless thee" (verse 10)!

:clap:

Luk 18:10 Two men went up into the temple to pray; the one a Pharisee, and the other a publican.
Luk 18:11 The Pharisee stood and prayed thus with himself, God, I thank thee, that I am not as other men are, extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even as this publican.
Luk 18:12 I fast twice in the week, I give tithes of all that I possess.
Luk 18:13 And the publican, standing afar off, would not lift up so much as his eyes unto heaven, but smote upon his breast, saying, God be merciful to me a sinner. Luk 18:14 I tell you, this man went down to his house justified rather than the other: for every one that exalteth himself shall be abased; and he that humbleth himself shall be exalted.


You do it your way...
And I will do it His way.
 
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brixken7

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There is one caveat to what I just posted, and that is this:

If anyone believes -- and many do -- that in someway they can contribute to their salvation, they need to repent of that and ask for God's mercy. That is because salvation is ENTIRELY of God's works and His mercy.
Yes, it's entirely HIS love and HIS mercy and HIS works that saves us.


:clap:
 
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TheBarrd

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There is one caveat to what I just posted, and that is this:

If anyone believes -- and many do -- that in someway they can contribute to their salvation, they need to repent of that and ask for God's mercy. That is because salvation is ENTIRELY of God's works and His mercy.
Yes, it's entirely HIS love and HIS mercy and HIS works that saves us.


:clap:

That's the first thing you've said that I can agree with.
 
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DrBubbaLove

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Interesting, most Christians I have know universally hold that a person must do something (in this life) in order have eternal life. Agree we differ on what needs to be done and also the effects of various actions we say one must take.

Oh sure, we call it different things and some of us are seen by others as perhaps having too many things "to do" in order to remain in His Good Grace, but when it comes right down to it, it seems all the same to me. We are all sinners in need of His Grace, it did not come free, it is given freely but is not forced upon us.

Many of us believe once granted that Grace in this life, we frequently fall and that requires us again to act (do something) in order to recover from that fall in our relationship with Him. Here again we call it different things, but essentially it involves repenting and asking for His forgiveness. Some of us believe that a severe fall from Grace can be fatal, eternally so, if we do not act to recover from it before our death.
 
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brixken7

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"There is one caveat to what I just posted, and that is this:
If anyone believes -- and many do -- that in someway they can contribute to their salvation, they need to repent of that and ask for God's mercy. That is because salvation is ENTIRELY of God's works and His mercy. Yes, it's entirely HIS love and HIS mercy and HIS works that saves us. --brixken7
............................................................................

That's the first thing you've said that I can agree with.
......................................................................

Really!
Well that's great!
But this raises an important question. If you truly believe salvation is entirely the work of God, then HOW could you possibly have any doubts that He will save everyone (?) -- since it is clearly His stated will to to so (e.g., I Timothy 2:4).

:confused:
 
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Timothew

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Interesting, most Christians I have know universally hold that a person must do something (in this life) in order have eternal life. Agree we differ on what needs to be done and also the effects of various actions we say one must take.

Oh sure, we call it different things and some of us are seen by others as perhaps having too many things "to do" in order to remain in His Good Grace, but when it comes right down to it, it seems all the same to me. We are all sinners in need of His Grace, it did not come free, it is given freely but is not forced upon us.

Many of us believe once granted that Grace in this life, we frequently fall and that requires us again to act (do something) in order to recover from that fall in our relationship with Him. Here again we call it different things, but essentially it involves repenting and asking for His forgiveness. Some of us believe that a severe fall from Grace can be fatal, eternally so, if we do not act to recover from it before our death.

Well said. I know that you and I disagree a lot, but I whole heartedly agree with this post.
 
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Der Alte

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Really!
Well that's great!
But this raises an important question. If you truly believe salvation is entirely the work of God, then HOW could you possibly have any doubts that He will save everyone (?) -- since it is clearly His stated will to to so (e.g., I Timothy 2:4).

I already addressed and refuted this back in my [post=67378249][post #114][/post] and my [post=67380022][post #126][/post]
 
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Der Alte

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............................

EXCUSE ME. My question was addressed to "TheBarrd".

NO EXCUSE ME! This is an open forum anyone is permitted to participate in any discussion. If you want to restrict your discussion to one member, ask the mods for a formal debate.
 
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brixken7

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NO EXCUSE ME! This is an open forum anyone is permitted to participate in any discussion. If you want to restrict your discussion to one member, ask the mods for a formal debate.
......................................

Well, the discussion seems to have ended.
Everyone bored with God's emphasis on Christ's footstool?
And no one has a synonym for "footstool" other than "dwelling place"?

:)
 
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Timothew

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......................................

Well, the discussion seems to have ended.
Everyone bored with God's emphasis on Christ's footstool?
And no one has a synonym for "footstool" other than "dwelling place"?

:)

I haven't been following your argument with DA, but "footstool" means "a low stool for resting the feet on when sitting." It doesn't mean "dwelling place".
 
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brixken7

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I haven't been following your argument with DA, but "footstool" means "a low stool for resting the feet on when sitting." It doesn't mean "dwelling place".
...........................................................

Then what does it mean?
A "low stool" doesn't fit.
Here it is again:


[FONT=&quot]What will God do with Christ's enemies?[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]In the Bible the term "feet" is often used in a metaphorical way to mean "one's person"; i.e., it's used synonymously for the man himself. A classic example found in both the Old and New Testaments is found in Psalm 8:6 in reference to mankind:[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]"Thou made him to have dominion over the works of thy hands; [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]thou has put all things under his feet."[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]This same expression "under his feet" is also used in a prophecy concerning Christ and his enemies. It's a prophecy found in I Corinthians 15:25 and 27; Ephesians 1:22; and Hebrews 2:8, and its meaning is crystal clear. God has given "all power," meaning all authority in heaven and in earth, to Christ (Matthew 28:18). And eventually we will see "all" under his rule -- but we don't see this "yet" (Hebrews 2:8). Nevertheless, this is a very important prophecy that we as Christians can take comfort in. Unfortunately, however, it is nearly always confused with what is, arguably, a still greater prophecy, the Footstool Prophecy:[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]"The Lord" [/FONT][FONT=&quot](God the Father) [FONT=&quot]"said unto my Lord" [/FONT](Christ)[FONT=&quot], 'Sit thou at my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool.'"[/FONT][/FONT]

[FONT=&quot](Psalm 110:1, KJV; see also Mark 12:36; Luke 20:43; Acts 2:35; Hebrews 1:13, 10:13, CV). The reader should note that God tells us no less than 6 times in the Bible that He will makes Christ's enemies Christ's "footstool." Now 6 is the number of man (Revelation 13:18), man having been created on the sixth day of the week. This would indicate that this prophecy concerns MAN, what God will do with mankind![/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]In addition to this, some Greek manuscripts also repeat this prophecy of Christ's "footstool" in Matthew 22:44 (see e.g., the KJV), making a total of 7 times in which this prophecy can be found in the Bible! And 7 is God's number of completeness and perfection, which means this prophecy points to the completion and the perfection of the work of God! How foolish, therefore, to ignore this oft-repeated prophecy! But God takes pleasure in hiding things (Proverbs 25:2), and He has caused this major prophecy to be written in a veiled language which, seemingly, no one has taken the trouble of deciphering. Obviously to understand its meaning, we will have to understand the meaning of a word that is completely unfamiliar to us in biblical terminology: the word "footstool."[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]In order to resolve the issue, I examined more than 10 different Bible dictionaries for their definition of the word "footstool." And while none of them gave a precise definition, a few of them noted that this term was often used in reference to God's temple--which is true. There are 4 times in the Old Testament in which this term is substituted for the word "temple." Here's an example:[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]"How hath the Lord...cast down from heaven unto the earth the beauty of Israel, and remembered not his footstool in the day of his anger!"[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot](Lamentations 2:1; see also in I Chronicles 28:2; Psalm 99:5, 132:7). So with this term "footstool" actually synonymous with God's temple, the most logical way to define "footstool" is to define the word "temple." And this is easy. The temple was a "dwelling place" (I Kings 8:13; II Chronicles 6:2; Matthew 23:21). This, then, is the meaning of "footstool." It's a "dwelling place"![/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]So what does God mean, then, when He repeatedly says that He will make Christ's enemies his "dwelling place"? How can Christ "dwell" within his enemies?![/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]There is only one possible answer. And anyone who is really familiar with the Bible has already guessed it: God is going to place Christ's spirit, which is the spirit of God (Romans 8:9), within Christ's enemies. Thus, Christ will be "in" them, even as he is now "in" God's saints (verse 10). In other words, Christ's enemies will then become the temple of God, even as God's saints are already His temple, His dwelling place upon this earth (II Corinthians 6:16)! [FONT=&quot](Note: This is why God calls this earth His "footstool" in Matthew 5:35.)[/FONT][/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]What we've uncovered here from the Scriptures is proof that all of Christ's enemies will become converted through the indwelling of God's holy spirit. Not a one of his past, present, or future enemies will be left unconverted! As a result, all of mankind will no longer be at odds with their Maker, and God shall have kept His promise to make Christ's enemies "at peace with him" (Proverbs 16:7, CV)![/FONT]

:clap:
 
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Der Alte

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Then what does it mean?
A "low stool" doesn't fit.
Here it is again:

What will God do with Christ's enemies?

In the Bible the term "feet" is often used in a metaphorical way to mean "one's person"; i.e., it's used synonymously for the man himself. [Nonsense! DA] A classic example found in both the Old and New Testaments is found in Psalm 8:6 in reference to mankind:

"Thou made him to have dominion over the works of thy hands;
thou has put all things under his feet."

This same expression "under his feet" is also used in a prophecy concerning Christ and his enemies. It's a prophecy found in I Corinthians 15:25 and 27; Ephesians 1:22; and Hebrews 2:8, and its meaning is crystal clear. God has given "all power," meaning all authority in heaven and in earth, to Christ (Matthew 28:18). And eventually we will see "all" under his rule -- but we don't see this "yet" (Hebrews 2:8). Nevertheless, this is a very important prophecy that we as Christians can take comfort in. Unfortunately, however, it is nearly always confused with what is, arguably, a still greater prophecy, the Footstool Prophecy:

"The Lord" (God the Father) "said unto my Lord" (Christ), 'Sit thou at my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool.'"

(Psalm 110:1, KJV; see also Mark 12:36; Luke 20:43; Acts 2:35; Hebrews 1:13, 10:13, CV). The reader should note that God tells us no less than 6 times in the Bible that He will makes Christ's enemies Christ's "footstool." Now 6 is the number of man (Revelation 13:18), man having been created on the sixth day of the week. This would indicate that this prophecy concerns MAN, what God will do with mankind!

In addition to this, some Greek manuscripts also repeat this prophecy of Christ's "footstool" in Matthew 22:44 (see e.g., the KJV), making a total of 7 times in which this prophecy can be found in the Bible! And 7 is God's number of completeness and perfection, which means this prophecy points to the completion and the perfection of the work of God! How foolish, therefore, to ignore this oft-repeated prophecy! But God takes pleasure in hiding things (Proverbs 25:2), and He has caused this major prophecy to be written in a veiled language which, seemingly, no one has taken the trouble of deciphering. Obviously to understand its meaning, we will have to understand the meaning of a word that is completely unfamiliar to us in biblical terminology: the word "footstool."[Nonsense! DA]

In order to resolve the issue, I examined more than 10 different Bible dictionaries for their definition of the word "footstool." And while none of them gave a precise definition, a few of them noted that this term was often used in reference to God's temple--which is true. There are 4 times in the Old Testament in which this term is substituted for the word "temple." Here's an example:[Nonsense! DA]

"How hath the Lord...cast down from heaven unto the earth the beauty of Israel, and remembered not his footstool in the day of his anger!"

(Lamentations 2:1; see also in I Chronicles 28:2; Psalm 99:5, 132:7). So with this term "footstool" actually synonymous with God's temple, the most logical way to define "footstool" is to define the word "temple." And this is easy. The temple was a "dwelling place" (I Kings 8:13; II Chronicles 6:2; Matthew 23:21). This, then, is the meaning of "footstool." It's a "dwelling place"![Nonsense! DA]

So what does God mean, then, when He repeatedly says that He will make Christ's enemies his "dwelling place"? How can Christ "dwell" within his enemies?![Nonsense! DA]

There is only one possible answer. And anyone who is really familiar with the Bible has already guessed it: God is going to place Christ's spirit, which is the spirit of God (Romans 8:9), within Christ's enemies. Thus, Christ will be "in" them, even as he is now "in" God's saints (verse 10). In other words, Christ's enemies will then become the temple of God, even as God's saints are already His temple, His dwelling place upon this earth (II Corinthians 6:16)! (Note: This is why God calls this earth His "footstool" in Matthew 5:35.)

This is total nonsense that I have addressed before.

What we've uncovered here from the Scriptures is proof that all of Christ's enemies will become converted through the indwelling of God's holy spirit. Not a one of his past, present, or future enemies will be left unconverted! As a result, all of mankind will no longer be at odds with their Maker, and God shall have kept His promise to make Christ's enemies "at peace with him" (Proverbs 16:7, CV)!

More nonsense this scripture most certainly does not say what you claim here.

Pro 16:7 When a man's ways please the LORD, he maketh even his enemies to be at peace with him.​

God does not make all mankind at peace with Him, God, just because one anonymous man's ways please the Lord.

Here is what this verse really says. When a man's ways please the LORD, he [God] maketh even his [the man's] enemies to be at peace with him. [the man]

Matthew Henry Commentary

If we make it our care to be reconciled to God, and to keep ourselves in his love, he will incline those that have been envious towards us, and vexatious to us, to entertain a good opinion of us and to become our friends. God made Esau to be at peace with Jacob, Abimelech with Isaac, and David's enemies to court his favour and desire a league with Israel. The image of God appearing upon the righteous, and his particular lovingkindness to them, are enough to recommend them to the respect of all, even of those that have been most prejudiced against them.

Keil and Delitszch Commentary on the OT

properly (for הִשְׁלִים is here the causative of the transitive, Jos_10:1): He brings it about that they conclude peace with him. If God has pleasure in the ways of a man, i.e., in the designs which he prosecutes, and in the means which he employs, he shows, by the great consequences which flow from his endeavours, that, even as his enemies also acknowledge, God is with him (e.g., Gen_26:27.), so that they, vanquished in heart (e.g., 2Sa_19:9.), abandon their hostile position, and become his friends. For if it is manifest that God makes Himself known, bestowing blessings on a man, there lies in this a power of conviction which disarms his most bitter opponents, excepting only those who have in selfishness hardened themselves.​

From Strong's Concordance!

הֲדֹם hădôm had-ome'
From an unused root meaning to stamp upon; a foot stool: - [foot-] stool.

כֶּבֶשׁ kebesh keh'-besh
From H3533; a footstool (as trodden upon): - footstool.

רֶגֶל regel reh'-gel
From H7270; a foot (as used in walking); by implication a step; by euphemism the pudenda: - X be able to endure, X according as, X after, X coming, X follow, ([broken-]) foot ([-ed, -stool]), X great toe, X haunt, X journey, leg, + urine, + possession, time.​

From Brown, Driver, Briggs Lexicon of OT Hebrew.

רגל regel
BDB Definition:
1) foot
1a) foot, leg
1b) of God (anthropomorphic)
1c) of seraphim, cherubim, idols, animals, table
1d) according to the pace of (with preposition)
1e) three times (feet, paces)
Part of Speech: noun feminine

הדם hădôm
BDB Definition:
1) stool, footstool
Part of Speech: noun masculine
A Related Word by BDB/Strong’s Number: from an unused root meaning to stamp upon
Same Word by TWOT Number: 474

כּבשׁ kebesh
BDB Definition:
1) footstool
Part of Speech: noun masculine
A Related Word by BDB/Strong’s Number: from H3533
Same Word by TWOT Number: 951a​
 
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Timothew

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...........................................................
Then what does it mean?
A "low stool" doesn't fit.

I told you what a footstool is. I'm sorry that you don't like that answer.
I don't even know what point you want to prove. I'm just talking about what a footstool is, a place to rest your feet. "What does it mean?" It means "a place to rest one's feet".
 
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Timothew

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Seems simpler to see footstool as a representing the relationship, in particular of the conqueror over the vanquished, as in beneath the foot.

I agree. A footstool is something to put under your feet. The Bible says that Christ is victorious.
 
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Der Alte

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Seems simpler to see footstool as a representing the relationship, in particular of the conqueror over the vanquished, as in beneath the foot.

Such as in these verses.

Jos 10:24 And it came to pass, when they brought out those kings unto Joshua, that Joshua called for all the men of Israel, and said unto the captains of the men of war which went with him, Come near, put your feet upon the necks of these kings. And they came near, and put their feet upon the necks of them.

Mal 4:3 And ye shall tread down the wicked; for they shall be ashes under the soles of your feet in the day that I shall do this, saith the LORD of hosts.​
 
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brixken7

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I agree. A footstool is something to put under your feet. The Bible says that Christ is victorious.
....................................................


Aren't you forgetting that God has already said at least 4 times in the Scriptures that He is going to place Christ's enemies "under His feet":

I Corinthians 15:25
I Corinthians 15:27
Ephesians 1:22
Hebrews 2:8

Why would God say essentially the same thing at least 6 more times using a different term, the term "footstool":

Psalm 110:1
Matthew 22:44 (KJV)
Mark 12:36
Luke 20:43
Acts 2:35
Hebrews 1:13
Hebrews 10:13 (CLNT)

And even more intriguing -- NOT BORING -- is the fact that the term "footstool" is never used in association with punishment, not once! On the contrary. Instead, it's used in association with the worship of God, God's temple and His tabernacle! See...

I Chronicles 28:2
Psalm 99:5
Psalm 132:7
Lamentations 2:1 (compare with verse 6)

Now if the orthodox view were true, prophesying of eternal punishment and "hell" for the majority of mankind, then the multiple prophetic verses above should at least HINT of punishment -- but they don't.

As Vine's Dictionary says, the word footstool is used "metaphorically," as well as literally. Actually, it most often is used metaphorically. Basically, this is defined as one thing representing another; a symbol. But if you try to interpret "footstool" in a LITERAL fashion it will make no sense. Ancient Israel, for example, did not worship God at His "low stool." That's absurd. But they did worship God at His temple, His dwelling place (footstool) on earth. In other
[FONT=&quot]words, where you place your feet -- where you live and dwell -- that is your "footstool," metaphorically speaking, in the Bible.

[/FONT]The spirit of Christ presently dwells in his former enemies, his saints; they are God's temple on earth. And whether we believe it or not, Christ, through God's spirit, will dwell in ALL of His enemies, to the glory of God. For God will pour out His spirit "upon all flesh" (Joel 2:28) and "dwell" within them all.

:clap:
 
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TheBarrd

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....................................................


Aren't you forgetting that God has already said at least 4 times in the Scriptures that He is going to place Christ's enemies "under His feet":

I Corinthians 15:25
I Corinthians 15:27
Ephesians 1:22
Hebrews 2:8

Why would God say essentially the same thing at least 6 more times using a different term, the term "footstool":

Psalm 110:1
Matthew 22:44 (KJV)
Mark 12:36
Luke 20:43
Acts 2:35
Hebrews 1:13
Hebrews 10:13 (CLNT)

And even more intriguing -- NOT BORING -- is the fact that the term "footstool" is never used in association with punishment, not once! On the contrary. Instead, it's used in association with the worship of God, God's temple and His tabernacle! See...

I Chronicles 28:2
Psalm 99:5
Psalm 132:7
Lamentations 2:1 (compare with verse 6)

Now if the orthodox view were true, prophesying of eternal punishment and "hell" for the majority of mankind, then the multiple prophetic verses above should at least HINT of punishment -- but they don't.

As Vine's Dictionary says, the word footstool is used "metaphorically," as well as literally. Actually, it most often is used metaphorically. Basically, this is defined as one thing representing another; a symbol. But if you try to interpret "footstool" in a LITERAL fashion it will make no sense. Ancient Israel, for example, did not worship God at His "low stool." That's absurd. But they did worship God at His temple, His dwelling place (footstool) on earth. In other
[FONT=&quot]words, where you place your feet -- where you live and dwell -- that is your "footstool," metaphorically speaking, in the Bible.

[/FONT]The spirit of Christ presently dwells in his former enemies, his saints; they are God's temple on earth. And whether we believe it or not, Christ, through God's spirit, will dwell in ALL of His enemies, to the glory of God. For God will pour out His spirit "upon all flesh" (Joel 2:28) and "dwell" within them all.

:clap:

That's a sweet thought, surely.
However, what do you do with verses like:

Mat_25:46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

or:

Luk_3:17 Whose fan is in his hand, and he will throughly purge his floor, and will gather the wheat into his garner; but the chaff he will burn with fire unquenchable.

or:

Mat_10:28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

Just to give you a few?
 
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