Universal reconciliation

[brixken7]

"But they, Israel and Judah, would not hear and obey,their will, vs. God’s will, So God destroyed them, vs. 14. "-- Der Alter

Yes, Der Alter, they resisted Christ's will, but they will not be able to resist God's will, "and so all Israel shall be saved" (Romans 11:26).

Note, verse 14, God said He will NOT have pity, will NOT spare, and will NOT have mercy but destroy them. -- Der Alter

That was thousands of years ago. But ultimately God will have mercy "upon all" (Romans 11:32). Indeed, "The Lord is good to all: and His tender mercies are over all His works" (Psalm 145:9).

"All thy works shall praise thee, O Lord; and thy saints shall bless thee" (verse 10)!

"According to Jesus there will be no conversion at the throne."
-- Der Alter

That's true, Der Alter, there will be no conversions at Christ's Second Coming, which is what Christ is speaking of in Matthew 25:31-46:

Mat 25:31 "When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, then he will sit on his glorious throne.
32 Before him will be gathered all the nations, and he will separate people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats.
33 And he will place the sheep on his right, but the goats on the left.
. . .
41 "Then he will say to those on his left, 'Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.
42 For I was hungry and you gave me no food, I was thirsty and you gave me no drink,
43 I was a stranger and you did not welcome me, naked and you did not clothe me, sick and in prison and you did not visit me.'
44 Then they also will answer, saying, 'Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and did not minister to you?'
45 Then he will answer them, saying, 'Truly, I say to you, as you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to me.'
46 Andthese will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life."
​

Their ultimate salvation here is not at stake.
Notice, that they are punished for their evil works, not for rejecting Christ as their savior, per se. And just as one cannot gain salvation through good works, one cannot, ultimately, lose their salvation through their evil works (witness King David).

"Eternal punishment" does not sound like universal reconciliation."
-- Der Alter

You're quoting a mistranslation.

"Your proof text Job 33:29 does not say what you think it does. God only saves in this life, not after death." -- Der Alter

If what you say here is true, then very few people will be ever be saved: most people --- BILLIONS of people --- will burn, supposedly, throughout eternity. That's your 'gospel', one in which Satan is ultimately triumphant.

 

[TheBarrd]

"But they, Israel and Judah, would not hear and obey,their will, vs. God’s will, So God destroyed them, vs. 14. "-- Der Alter

Yes, Der Alter, they resisted Christ's will, but they will not be able to resist God's will, "and so all Israel shall be saved" (Romans 11:26).

Note, verse 14, God said He will NOT have pity, will NOT spare, and will NOT have mercy but destroy them. -- Der Alter

That was thousands of years ago. But ultimately God will have mercy "upon all" (Romans 11:32). Indeed, "The Lord is good to all: and His tender mercies are over all His works" (Psalm 145:9).

"All thy works shall praise thee, O Lord; and thy saints shall bless thee" (verse 10)!

"According to Jesus there will be no conversion at the throne."
-- Der Alter

That's true, Der Alter, there will be no conversions at Christ's Second Coming, which is what Christ is speaking of in Matthew 25:31-46:

Mat 25:31 "When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, then he will sit on his glorious throne.
32 Before him will be gathered all the nations, and he will separate people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats.
33 And he will place the sheep on his right, but the goats on the left.
. . .
41 "Then he will say to those on his left, 'Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.
42 For I was hungry and you gave me no food, I was thirsty and you gave me no drink,
43 I was a stranger and you did not welcome me, naked and you did not clothe me, sick and in prison and you did not visit me.'
44 Then they also will answer, saying, 'Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and did not minister to you?'
45 Then he will answer them, saying, 'Truly, I say to you, as you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to me.'
46 Andthese will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life."
​

Their ultimate salvation here is not at stake.
Notice, that they are punished for their evil works, not for rejecting Christ as their savior, per se. And just as one cannot gain salvation through good works, one cannot, ultimately, lose their salvation through their evil works (witness King David).

"Eternal punishment" does not sound like universal reconciliation."
-- Der Alter

You're quoting a mistranslation.

"Your proof text Job 33:29 does not say what you think it does. God only saves in this life, not after death." -- Der Alter

If what you say here is true, then very few people will be ever be saved: most people --- BILLIONS of people --- will burn, supposedly, throughout eternity. That's your 'gospel', one in which Satan is ultimately triumphant.

I have often wondered whether those who insist on eternal torture really realize what they are saying. I mean, have they REALLY thought about it?
All those souls, tortured through eternity...while a mere handful achieve bliss?

Is this truly God's will? His eternal plan??

Is it truly "love me or burn in hell forever"???

 

[Der Alte]

Yeah, I doubt that there will be any "melting eyeballs" myself...but the guy I was talking to was very sure. You could almost see him rubbing his hands together in anticipation.

Now, I don't claim to speak for God, of course...I would never dare to presume to do so!...however, if it were up to me, anyone who could enjoy watching such horror would be the first in line to have their eyeballs melted.

Yeah...that might make it impossible to see the suffering...

That sounds like a reasonable remedy to me. The only account in the Bible of what happens after death, does not mention any melting eyeballs. The rich man evidently still had eyes, he could see Abraham and Lazarus, he could experience thirst and torment and he evidently had a tongue. And that story does not indicate that everyone who is comforted after death will be able to see those in the rich man's situation. When Stephen was being stoned he saw heaven opened up and the Son at the right hand of the Father, but scripture does not indicate that is the norm for everyone.

 

[James Is Back]

I have often wondered whether those who insist on eternal torture really realize what they are saying. I mean, have they REALLY thought about it?
All those souls, tortured through eternity...while a mere handful achieve bliss?

Is this truly God's will? His eternal plan??

Is it truly "love me or burn in hell forever"???

I wish people would get out of this mindset that God Himself torture's people in hell or He sends people to hell. That is not true.

People send themselves to hell. Sort of like a judge who sentences a murderer to prison or death. Now did that judge send that murderer to prison or death or did the murderer send himself to prison or death?

One of God's attributes is His divine Justice. Much like a judge that sentences someone to prison or death, God will sentence those who don't accept His Son's offer of Salvation.

 

[TheBarrd]

That sounds like a reasonable remedy to me. The only account in the Bible of what happens after death, does not mention any melting eyeballs. The rich man evidently still had eyes, he could see Abraham and Lazarus, he could experience thirst and torment and he evidently had a tongue. And that story does not indicate that everyone who is comforted after death will be able to see those in the rich man's situation. When Stephen was being stoned he saw heaven opened up and the Son at the right hand of the Father, but scripture does not indicate that is the norm for everyone.

I suspect that the rich man and Lazarus story is a parable.
You take that story out of the "hell theology" and there really isn't much left.

As for me, as I've said...when I decided to follow Jesus, it was understood that I would trust Him. Whatever He has planned for the afterlife...and I do not presume to know what that may be, as there are verses that support just about every opinion I've ever heard...except, of course, the "melting eyeball" theory...whatever He does have planned will be just and perfect.

Let us, then, simply trust in Him...and stop trying to scare people into church with insane tales of "melting eyeballs".
Rather, let us focus on the love of God, which is what draws men to Christ in the first place...

 

[Der Alte]

Yes, Der Alter, they resisted Christ's will, but they will not be able to resist God's will, "and so all Israel shall be saved" (Romans 11:26).

That was thousands of years ago. But ultimately God will have mercy "upon all" (Romans 11:32). Indeed, "The Lord is good to all: and His tender mercies are over all His works" (Psalm 145:9).

"All thy works shall praise thee, O Lord; and thy saints shall bless thee" (verse 10)!

Out-of-context proof-texting! How many times did the psalmist mention God's punishment? Not everyone is a saint. Psalm 9:17, 16:19, 18:5, 55:15, 86:13, 116:3, 139:8, 35:7, 40:2, 88:4, 6, 143:7.

So in your theology when God says "I will not pity, I will not have mercy, I will not spare but destroy them." Jesus can come along a few thousand years later and revoke what God Himself said? You failed to notice that Jeremiah 13:1-14 is clearly about God's will and I believe you said God's will, will always be done.

That's true, Der Alter, there will be no conversions at Christ's Second Coming, which is what Christ is speaking of in Matthew 25:31-46:

Where does scripture speak of two judgments, the one in Matt 25 and the great white throne judgment in Revelation?

Their ultimate salvation here is not at stake.
Notice, that they are punished for their evil works, not for rejecting Christ as their savior, per se. And just as one cannot gain salvation through good works, one cannot, ultimately, lose their salvation through their evil works (witness King David).

Was their ultimate salvation at stake for those who went away into Eternal Life? So when does God say the eternal punishment is supposed to end? About the same time when the eternal life ends?

"Eternal punishment" does not sound like universal reconciliation."
-- Der Alter

You're quoting a mistranslation.

I don't quote mistranslations! I read both Biblical languages.

κόλασις, , εώ, hJ punishment (so Hippocr. +; Diod. S. 1, 77, 9; 4, 44, 3; Aelian , V.H. 7, 15; Dit., Syll. 2 680, 13; LXX ; Philo , Leg. ad Gai. 7, Mos. 1, 96; Jos. , Ant. 17, 164; Sib. Or. 5, 388).

1. lit. k. uJpomevnein undergo punishment GOxy 6; deinai; k. (4 Macc 8:9 ) MPol 2:4; hJ ejpivmono" k. long-continued torture ibid. kakai; k. tou` diabovlou IRo 5:3. Of the martyrdom of Jesus PK 4 p. 15, 34. The smelling of the odor arising fr. sacrifices ironically described as punishment, injury (
s. kolavzw ) Dg 2:9.
2. of divine retribution ( Diod. S. 3, 61, 5; 16, 61, 1; Epict. 3, 11, 1; Dio Chrys. 80[30], 12; 2 Macc 4:38 al. in LXX ; Philo , Spec. Leg. 1, 55; 2, 196; Jos. , Ant. 1, 60 al. ): w. aijkismov" 1 Cl 11:1. Of eternal damnation ( w. qavnato" ) Dg 9:2 ( Diod. S. 8, 15, 1 k. ajqavnato" ). Of hell: tovpo" kolavsew" AP 6:21 (Simplicius in Epict. p. 13, 1 eij" ejkei`non to;n tovpon aiJ kolavsew" deovmenai yucai; katapevmpontai). ajpevrcesqai eij" k. aijwvnion go away into eternal punishment Mt 25:46 ; MPol 11:2 ( k. aij. as Test. Reub. 5:5, Ash. 7:5; Celsus 8, 48). rJuvesqai ejk th`" aijwnivou k. rescue fr. eternal punishment 2 Cl 6:7. th;n aijwvnion k. ejxagoravzesqai buy one’s freedom fr. eternal pun. MPol 2:3. kakai; k. tou` diabovlou IRo 5:3. k. tino" punishment for someth. (Ezk 14:3 , 4 , 7 ; 18:30 ; Philo , Fuga 65 aJmarthmavtwn k.) e[cein kovlasivn tina th`" ponhriva" aujtou` Hs 9, 18, 1. oJ fovbo" kovlasin e[cei fear has to do with punishment 1J 4:18 ( cf. Phil o, In Flacc. 96 fovbo" kolavsew" ). M-M. *

Bauer, Arndt, Gingrich and Danker lexicon of NT Greek online

G2851 κόλασις kolasis
Thayer Definition:
1) correction, punishment, penalty
Part of Speech: noun feminine
A Related Word by Thayer’s/Strong’s Number: from G2849
Citing in TDNT: 3:816, 451
​

If what you say here is true, then very few people will be ever be saved: most people --- BILLIONS of people --- will burn, supposedly, throughout eternity. That's your 'gospel', one in which Satan is ultimately triumphant

Wrong God will triumph. What more could God have done beside sending His only Son that mankind might be saved? God is not responsible for the numbers of people who willingly, knowingly reject Him

 

[Der Alte]

I suspect that the rich man and Lazarus story is a parable.
You take that story out of the "hell theology" and there really isn't much left.

As for me, as I've said...when I decided to follow Jesus, it was understood that I would trust Him. Whatever He has planned for the afterlife...and I do not presume to know what that may be, as there are verses that support just about every opinion I've ever heard...except, of course, the "melting eyeball" theory...whatever He does have planned will be just and perfect.

Let us, then, simply trust in Him...and stop trying to scare people into church with insane tales of "melting eyeballs".
Rather, let us focus on the love of God, which is what draws men to Christ in the first place...

Every early church father, all of whom were native Greek speakers, who quoted the story of Lazarus and the rich man, considered it to be factual.

Irenaeus Against Heresies Book II Chapter XXXIV.-Souls Can Be Recognised in the Separate State, and are Immortal Although They Once Had a Beginning.
Ireneaeus, 120-202 AD, was a disciple of Polycarp, who was a disciple of John.

1. The Lord has taught with very great fulness, that souls not only continue to exist, not by passing from body to body, but that they preserve the same form [in their separate state] as the body had to which they were adapted, and that they remember the deeds which they did in this state of existence, and from which they have now ceased,-in that narrative which is recorded respecting the rich man and that Lazarus who found repose in the bosom of Abraham. In this account He states that Dives [=Latin for rich] knew Lazarus after death, and Abraham in like manner, and that each one of these persons continued in his own proper position, and that [Dives] requested Lazarus to be sent to relieve him-[Lazarus], on whom he did not [formerly] bestow even the crumbs [which fell] from his table. [He tells us] also of the answer given by Abraham, who was acquainted not only with what respected himself, but Dives also, and who enjoined those who did not wish to come into that place of torment to believe Moses and the prophets, and to receive the preaching of Him who was to rise again from the dead. By these things, then, it is plainly declared that souls continue to exist that they do not pass from body to body, that they possess the form of a man, so that they may be recognised, and retain the memory of things in this world; moreover, that the gift of prophecy was possessed by Abraham, and that each class of souls] receives a habitation such as it has deserved, even before the judgment.

ANF01. The Apostolic Fathers with Justin Martyr and Irenaeus | Christian Classics Ethereal Library

Clement of Alexandria [A.D. 153-193-217] The Instructor [Paedagogus] Book 1 Chaper 11

On the Resurrection. But he figuratively designates the vulgar rabble, attached to ephemeral pleasure, flourishing for a little, loving ornament, loving praise, and being everything but truth-loving, good for nothing but to be burned with fire. “There was a certain man,” said the Lord, narrating, “very rich, who was clothed in purple and scarlet, enjoying himself splendidly every day.” This was the day. “And a certain poor man named Lazarus was laid at the rich man’s gate, full of sores, desiring to be filled with the crumbs which fell from the rich man’s table.” This is the grass. Well, the rich man was punished in Hades, being made partaker of the fire; while the other flourished again in the Father’s bosom.

Tertullian A Treatise On The Soul [A.D. 145-220.] Part First

In hell the soul of a certain man is in torment, punished in flames, suffering excruciating thirst, and imploring from the finger of a happier soul, for his tongue, the solace of a drop of water. Do you suppose that this end of the blessed poor man and the miserable rich man is only imaginary? Then why the name of Lazarus in this narrative, if the circumstance is not in (the category of) a real occurrence? But even if it is to be regarded as imaginary, it will still be a testimony to truth and reality. For unless the soul possessed corporeality, the image of a soul could not possibly contain a finger of a bodily substance; nor would the Scripture feign a statement about the limbs of a body, if these had no existence.

The Epistles Of Cyprian (A.D. 200-258) Epistle 54 To Cornelius, Concerning Fortunatus And Felicissimus, Or Against The Heretics

A good man out of the good treasure bringeth forth good things; and an evil man out of the evil treasure bringeth forth evil things.” Whence also that rich sinner who implores help from Lazarus, then laid in Abraham’s bosom, and established in a place of comfort, while he, writhing in torments, is consumed by the heats of burning flame, suffers most punishment of all parts of his body in his mouth and his tongue, because doubtless in his mouth and his tongue he had most sinned.

Methodius Fragments On The History Of Jonah (A.D. 260-312)

But souls, being rational bodies, are arranged by the Maker and Father of all things into members which are visible to reason, having received this impression. Whence, also, in Hades, as in the case of Lazarus and the rich man, they are spoken of as having a tongue, and a finger, and the other members; not as though they had with them another invisible body, but that the souls themselves, naturally, when entirely stripped of their covering, are such according to their essence.​

 

[TheBarrd]

Every early church father, all of whom were native Greek speakers, who quoted the story of Lazarus and the rich man, considered it to be factual.

Irenaeus Against Heresies Book II Chapter XXXIV.-Souls Can Be Recognised in the Separate State, and are Immortal Although They Once Had a Beginning.
Ireneaeus, 120-202 AD, was a disciple of Polycarp, who was a disciple of John.

1. The Lord has taught with very great fulness, that souls not only continue to exist, not by passing from body to body, but that they preserve the same form [in their separate state] as the body had to which they were adapted, and that they remember the deeds which they did in this state of existence, and from which they have now ceased,-in that narrative which is recorded respecting the rich man and that Lazarus who found repose in the bosom of Abraham. In this account He states that Dives [=Latin for rich] knew Lazarus after death, and Abraham in like manner, and that each one of these persons continued in his own proper position, and that [Dives] requested Lazarus to be sent to relieve him-[Lazarus], on whom he did not [formerly] bestow even the crumbs [which fell] from his table. [He tells us] also of the answer given by Abraham, who was acquainted not only with what respected himself, but Dives also, and who enjoined those who did not wish to come into that place of torment to believe Moses and the prophets, and to receive the preaching of Him who was to rise again from the dead. By these things, then, it is plainly declared that souls continue to exist that they do not pass from body to body, that they possess the form of a man, so that they may be recognised, and retain the memory of things in this world; moreover, that the gift of prophecy was possessed by Abraham, and that each class of souls] receives a habitation such as it has deserved, even before the judgment.

ANF01. The Apostolic Fathers with Justin Martyr and Irenaeus | Christian Classics Ethereal Library

Clement of Alexandria [A.D. 153-193-217] The Instructor [Paedagogus] Book 1 Chaper 11

On the Resurrection. But he figuratively designates the vulgar rabble, attached to ephemeral pleasure, flourishing for a little, loving ornament, loving praise, and being everything but truth-loving, good for nothing but to be burned with fire. “There was a certain man,” said the Lord, narrating, “very rich, who was clothed in purple and scarlet, enjoying himself splendidly every day.” This was the day. “And a certain poor man named Lazarus was laid at the rich man’s gate, full of sores, desiring to be filled with the crumbs which fell from the rich man’s table.” This is the grass. Well, the rich man was punished in Hades, being made partaker of the fire; while the other flourished again in the Father’s bosom.

Tertullian A Treatise On The Soul [A.D. 145-220.] Part First

In hell the soul of a certain man is in torment, punished in flames, suffering excruciating thirst, and imploring from the finger of a happier soul, for his tongue, the solace of a drop of water. Do you suppose that this end of the blessed poor man and the miserable rich man is only imaginary? Then why the name of Lazarus in this narrative, if the circumstance is not in (the category of) a real occurrence? But even if it is to be regarded as imaginary, it will still be a testimony to truth and reality. For unless the soul possessed corporeality, the image of a soul could not possibly contain a finger of a bodily substance; nor would the Scripture feign a statement about the limbs of a body, if these had no existence.

The Epistles Of Cyprian (A.D. 200-258) Epistle 54 To Cornelius, Concerning Fortunatus And Felicissimus, Or Against The Heretics

A good man out of the good treasure bringeth forth good things; and an evil man out of the evil treasure bringeth forth evil things.” Whence also that rich sinner who implores help from Lazarus, then laid in Abraham’s bosom, and established in a place of comfort, while he, writhing in torments, is consumed by the heats of burning flame, suffers most punishment of all parts of his body in his mouth and his tongue, because doubtless in his mouth and his tongue he had most sinned.

Methodius Fragments On The History Of Jonah (A.D. 260-312)

But souls, being rational bodies, are arranged by the Maker and Father of all things into members which are visible to reason, having received this impression. Whence, also, in Hades, as in the case of Lazarus and the rich man, they are spoken of as having a tongue, and a finger, and the other members; not as though they had with them another invisible body, but that the souls themselves, naturally, when entirely stripped of their covering, are such according to their essence.​

I seriously doubt if people would take much pleasure in being in "Abraham's bosom" if they could hear and see people just across the way, being tortured in the flames, and hear them crying for a "drop of water"...well, except for that bunch who just can't wait to watch the melting eyeballs...they'd be gathered on the edge of the dividing chasm, eagerly watching the show...hey, maybe they'll get so excited, they'll all fall in? I wonder how long they'd fall before they finally hit the bottom...

I don't know what to think about the church fathers you mentioned, all agreeing that this is a "real" account. I just can't see it, myself.

Once again, however, I do not presume to speak for God. He has not appointed me to make such decisions...for which I am extremely grateful.
No, all He has asked of me is to trust Him, and that is what I shall do.

 

[Der Alte]

I seriously doubt if people would take much pleasure in being in "Abraham's bosom" if they could hear and see people just across the way, being tortured in the flames, and hear them crying for a "drop of water"...well, except for that bunch who just can't wait to watch the melting eyeballs...they'd be gathered on the edge of the dividing chasm, eagerly watching the show...hey, maybe they'll get so excited, they'll all fall in? I wonder how long they'd fall before they finally hit the bottom...

Nothing in scripture says that the experience of Lazarus and the rich man is the norm for everyone. As Stephen was dying he saw heaven opened and and the Son at the Father's right hand. I don't know of that happening to anyone else. It is not the norm for everyone

I don't know what to think about the church fathers you mentioned, all agreeing that this is a "real" account. I just can't see it, myself.

Once again, however, I do not presume to speak for God. He has not appointed me to make such decisions...for which I am extremely grateful.
No, all He has asked of me is to trust Him, and that is what I shall do.

That is all God asked of any of us. But we are also supposed to "go into all the world teaching all that that Jesus taught baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit." There are some who believe that everyone who ever lived will be saved no matter what I can't do that when Jesus taught this.

• "Eternal punishment, Mt 25:46"
• "the fire of hell where the fire is not quenched and the worm does not die, Mk 9:43-48" and
• "cast into a fiery furnace where there will be wailing and gnashing of teeth,” Mt 13:42, 50
• “better for him [a person who offends a little one] that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and that he were drowned in the depth of the sea. Mt 18:6
• “it had been good for him [the one who betrays Jesus] if he had not been born.” Mat 26:24​

These teachings reaffirmed and sanctioned the existing Jewish view of eternal hell. In Matt. 18:6, 26:24, see above, Jesus teaches that there is a fate worse than death or nonexistence. A fate worse than death is also mentioned in Heb 10:28-31.

 

[TheBarrd]

Nothing in scripture says that the experience of Lazarus and the rich man is the norm for everyone. As Stephen was dying he saw heaven opened and and the Son at the Father's right hand. I don't know of that happening to anyone else. It is not the norm for everyone

So, you think God tailors heaven and hell for each individual?
I don't think I've ever heard that idea before...

That is all God asked of any of us. But we are also supposed to "go into all the world teaching all that that Jesus taught baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit." There are some who believe that everyone who ever lived will be saved no matter what I can't do that when Jesus taught this.

• "Eternal punishment, Mt 25:46"
• "the fire of hell where the fire is not quenched and the worm does not die, Mk 9:43-48" and
• "cast into a fiery furnace where there will be wailing and gnashing of teeth,” Mt 13:42, 50
• “better for him [a person who offends a little one] that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and that he were drowned in the depth of the sea. Mt 18:6
• “it had been good for him [the one who betrays Jesus] if he had not been born.” Mat 26:24​

These teachings reaffirmed and sanctioned the existing Jewish view of eternal hell. In Matt. 18:6, 26:24, see above, Jesus teaches that there is a fate worse than death or nonexistence. A fate worse than death is also mentioned in Heb 10:28-31.

Do you suppose it is necessary when witnessing to someone to tell them about hell? Why or why not?

 

[Der Alte]

So, you think God tailors heaven and hell for each individual?
I don't think I've ever heard that idea before...

No! But the experiences are not the same for all people.

Do you suppose it is necessary when witnessing to someone to tell them about hell? Why or why not?

No!! But at some point in the learning process the verses I cited in my previous post and others must be taught/discussed.

 

[James Is Back]

No!! But at some point in the learning process the verses I cited in my previous post and others must be taught/discussed.

This. I don't agree with the fire and brimstoners but I also don't agree with preaching 100% love either. There needs to be a counterbalance between preaching hell and preaching love.

 

[Der Alte]

This. I don't agree with the fire and brimstoners but I also don't agree with preaching 100% love either. There needs to be a counterbalance between preaching hell and preaching love.

I preached the first time in 1977. Since then I have preached in 4 states and 2 countries. I have only heard one sermon about hell and I preached it about 20 years ago, "Lessons from Hell university."

 

[TheBarrd]

Once again, let me start out by saying that I do not have the first clue what God has planned for His final disposition. None.
However, there are verses that support annihilation, and verses that support universalism as well.
Der Alter tells us of a sermon he called "Lessons from Hell university"...
But seriously, once the doomed sinner is in hell, isn't it too late for lessons?
Which is sorta the point. I mean, punishment has a purpose, which is to deter further sinful behavior, right? There seems little point in eternal punishment...the doomed sinner may feel sorrow at this point for his sins...but what good does that do? He is doomed, forever. Annihilation seems more merciful...
Then there are those verses that tell us that Jesus came to save the world. That would seem to be pretty inclusive...unless all the doomed sinners are visitors from another planet...

What I do know is that eye has not seen, ears have not heard...we can't even imagine what God has in store for those who love Him.
I've even heard good, kind, and loving Christians express the hope that God might at some point receive Satan, who once was a beloved and beautiful angel, back again. And who is to say that it would be impossible? Nothing is impossible to God.

When it comes to the final fate of other sinners...well, this old sinner only wants to drop whatever stones might be hiding in my own pockets...and pray that God might have mercy on us all...

 

[brixken7]

[FONT=&quot]What will God do with Christ's enemies?[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]In the Bible the term "feet" is often used in a metaphorical way to mean "one's person"; i.e., it's used synonymously for the man himself. A classic example found in both the Old and New Testaments is found in Psalm 8:6 in reference to mankind:[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]"Thou made him to have dominion over the works of thy hands; [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]thou has put all things under his feet."[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]This same expression "under his feet" is also used in a prophecy concerning Christ and his enemies. It's a prophecy found in I Corinthians 15:25 and 27; Ephesians 1:22; and Hebrews 2:8, and its meaning is crystal clear. God has given "all power," meaning all authority in heaven and in earth, to Christ (Matthew 28:18). And eventually we will see "all" under his rule -- but we don't see this "yet" (Hebrews 2:8). Nevertheless, this is a very important prophecy that we as Christians can take comfort in. Unfortunately, however, it is nearly always confused with what is, arguably, a still greater prophecy, the Footstool Prophecy:[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]"The Lord" [/FONT][FONT=&quot](God the Father) [FONT=&quot]"said unto my Lord" [/FONT](Christ)[FONT=&quot], 'Sit thou at my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool.'"[/FONT][/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot](Psalm 110:1, KJV; see also Mark 12:36; Luke 20:43; Acts 2:35; Hebrews 1:13, 10:13, CV). The reader should note that God tells us no less than 6 times in the Bible that He will makes Christ's enemies Christ's "footstool." Now 6 is the number of man (Revelation 13:18), man having been created on the sixth day of the week. This would indicate that this prophecy concerns MAN, what God will do with mankind![/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]In addition to this, some Greek manuscripts also repeat this prophecy of Christ's "footstool" in Matthew 22:44 (see e.g., the KJV), making a total of 7 times in which this prophecy can be found in the Bible! And 7 is God's number of completeness and perfection, which means this prophecy points to the completion and the perfection of the work of God! How foolish, therefore, to ignore this oft-repeated prophecy! But God takes pleasure in hiding things (Proverbs 25:2), and He has caused this major prophecy to be written in a veiled language which, seemingly, no one has taken the trouble of deciphering. Obviously to understand its meaning, we will have to understand the meaning of a word that is completely unfamiliar to us in biblical terminology: the word "footstool."[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]In order to resolve the issue, I examined more than 10 different Bible dictionaries for their definition of the word "footstool." And while none of them gave a precise definition, a few of them noted that this term was often used in reference to God's temple--which is true. There are 4 times in the Old Testament in which this term is substituted for the word "temple." Here's an example:[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]"How hath the Lord...cast down from heaven unto the earth the beauty of Israel, and remembered not his footstool in the day of his anger!"[/FONT][FONT=&quot][/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot](Lamentations 2:1; see also in I Chronicles 28:2; Psalm 99:5, 132:7). So with this term "footstool" actually synonymous with God's temple, the most logical way to define "footstool" is to define the word "temple." And this is easy. The temple was a "dwelling place" (I Kings 8:13; II Chronicles 6:2; Matthew 23:21). This, then, is the meaning of "footstool." It's a "dwelling place"![/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]So what does God mean, then, when He repeatedly says that He will make Christ's enemies his "dwelling place"? How can Christ "dwell" within his enemies?![/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]There is only one possible answer. And anyone who is really familiar with the Bible has already guessed it: God is going to place Christ's spirit, which is the spirit of God (Romans 8:9), within Christ's enemies. Thus, Christ will be "in" them, even as he is now "in" God's saints (verse 10). In other words, Christ's enemies will then become the temple of God, even as God's saints are already His temple, His dwelling place upon this earth (II Corinthians 6:16)! [FONT=&quot](Note: This is why God calls this earth His "footstool" in Matthew 5:35.)[/FONT][/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]What we've uncovered here from the Scriptures is proof that all of Christ's enemies will become converted through the indwelling of God's holy spirit. Not a one of his past, present, or future enemies will be left unconverted! As a result, all of mankind will no longer be at odds with their Maker, and God shall have kept His promise to make Christ's enemies "at peace with him" (Proverbs 16:7, CV)![/FONT]

 

[Der Alte]

. . . In order to resolve the issue, I examined more than 10 different Bible dictionaries for their definition of the word "footstool." And while none of them gave a precise definition, a few of them noted that this term was often used in reference to God's temple--which is true. There are 4 times in the Old Testament in which this term is substituted for the word "temple." Here's an example:

"How hath the Lord...cast down from heaven unto the earth the beauty of Israel, and remembered not his footstool in the day of his anger!"

(Lamentations 2:1; see also in I Chronicles 28:2; Psalm 99:5, 132:7). So with this term "footstool" actually synonymous with God's temple, the most logical way to define "footstool" is to define the word "temple." And this is easy. The temple was a "dwelling place" (I Kings 8:13; II Chronicles 6:2; Matthew 23:21). This, then, is the meaning of "footstool." It's a "dwelling place"! . . .

Nonsense! "Footstool" never means "temple" or "dwelling place." It is real easy to claim that "a few of them [Bible dictionaries] noted that this term was often used in reference to God's temple--.'" but you have not identified any credible sources. There are three Hebrew words translated "footstool," listed below. None of them ever mean "dwelling place." or "temple."

From Strong's Concordance!

הֲדֹם hădôm had-ome'
From an unused root meaning to stamp upon; a foot stool: - [foot-] stool.

כֶּבֶשׁ kebesh keh'-besh
From H3533; a footstool (as trodden upon): - footstool.

רֶגֶל regel reh'-gel
From H7270; a foot (as used in walking); by implication a step; by euphemism the pudenda: - X be able to endure, X according as, X after, X coming, X follow, ([broken-]) foot ([-ed, -stool]), X great toe, X haunt, X journey, leg, + [bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse], + possession, time.​

From Brown, Driver, Briggs Lexicon of OT Hebrew.

רגל regel
BDB Definition:
1) foot
1a) foot, leg
1b) of God (anthropomorphic)
1c) of seraphim, cherubim, idols, animals, table
1d) according to the pace of (with preposition)
1e) three times (feet, paces)
Part of Speech: noun feminine

הדם hădôm
BDB Definition:
1) stool, footstool
Part of Speech: noun masculine
A Related Word by BDB/Strong’s Number: from an unused root meaning to stamp upon
Same Word by TWOT Number: 474

כּבשׁ kebesh
BDB Definition:
1) footstool
Part of Speech: noun masculine
A Related Word by BDB/Strong’s Number: from H3533
Same Word by TWOT Number: 951a​

 

[Der Alte]

Once again, let me start out by saying that I do not have the first clue what God has planned for His final disposition. None.
However, there are verses that support annihilation, and verses that support universalism as well.
Der Alter tells us of a sermon he called "Lessons from Hell university"...
But seriously, once the doomed sinner is in hell, isn't it too late for lessons? ...

I didn't say "Lessons in Hell university" but "Lessons from Hell University." Don't you think we can learn from the mistakes of others, rather than making the same mistakes ourselves? "there are verses that support annihilation, and verses that support universalism as well." Did Jesus ever teach about either one?

• "Eternal punishment, Mt 25:46"
• "the fire of hell where the fire is not quenched and the worm does not die, Mk 9:43-48" and
• "cast into a fiery furnace where there will be wailing and gnashing of teeth,” Mt 13:42, 50
• “better for him [a person who offends a little one] that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and that he were drowned in the depth of the sea. Mt 18:6
• “it had been good for him [the one who betrays Jesus] if he had not been born.” Mat 26:24​

Jesus' teachings reaffirmed and sanctioned the existing Jewish view of eternal hell. In Matt. 18:6, 26:24, see above. Twice, Jesus teaches that there is a fate worse than death or nonexistence. A fate worse than death is also mentioned in Heb 10:28-31.

 

[brixken7]

"Footstool never means 'temple' or 'dwelling place.' "
-- Der Alter
......................

No? Then what does God mean when He repeatedly says throughout the Bible...

"Sit thou at my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool"?

....and what does King David mean when he said for us to worship at God's "footstool"?
(Psalm 99:5 and 132:7)

[FONT=&quot][/FONT]

 

[Norah63]

Light will always win out over darkness.
I choose the winning side!

 

[Hillsage]

Annihilation seems more merciful...

It doesn't just "seem" more merciful...it 'IS' more merciful.

Then there are those verses that tell us that Jesus came to save the world.

But that couldn't be. Because if Jesus didn't save the world, then he must have 'missed the mark' according to orthodox thinking....and, if you 'think' about it...even annihilationist thinking. And if Jesus 'missed the mark' why that would make Him a sinner, and that really is a dilemma.

What I do know is that eye has not seen, ears have not heard...we can't even imagine what God has in store for those who love Him.

Now that sounds like the majority of non Spirit led/guided Christianity, in their theological conclusions.....IMO.

1CO 2:9 But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him. 10 But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God.

I've even heard good, kind, and loving Christians express the hope that God might at some point receive Satan, who once was a beloved and beautiful angel, back again. And who is to say that it would be impossible? Nothing is impossible to God.

Colossians 1:20 And, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things unto himself; by him, I say, whether they be things in earth, or things in heaven.

What 'things' may I ask, needed to be 'reconciled in heaven'?

When it comes to the final fate of other sinners...well, this old sinner only wants to drop whatever stones might be hiding in my own pockets...and pray that God might have mercy on us all...

I "find no fault" in that attitude Barrd.