Universal reconciliation

[TheBarrd]

Jesus did seem to have another fate altogether in mind for His enemies:

Luk 19:27 But those mine enemies, which would not that I should reign over them, bring hither, and slay them before me.

 

[brixken7]

That's a sweet thought, surely.
However, what do you do with verses like:

Mat_25:46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal. or:
Luk_3:17 Whose fan is in his hand, and he will throughly purge his floor, and will gather the wheat into his garner; but the chaff he will burn with fire unquenchable. or:
Mat_10:28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.
Just to give you a few?

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It all depends on what translation of the Bible you use. Many good translations of the Bible never once speak of "hell" or "eternal" punishment.

"In His book “God’s Methods with Man” the Rev. G. Campbell Morgan says this about the word “eternal”:

“Let me say to Bible students that we must be very careful how we use the word “eternity.” We have fallen into great error in our constant use of that word. There is no word in the whole Book of God corresponding with our “eternal,” which, as commonly used among us, means absolutely without end. The strongest Scripture word used with reference to the existence of God, is–“unto the ages of the ages,” which does not literally mean eternally. Let us remember however that the self-same word, which is thus used in connection with the existence of God, is also applied to the loss of the human soul. Men have divided the Church, separated from each other, and persecuted one another, upon a thought conveyed by an English word which has no equivalent in the Bible.”
-- George Campbell Morgan

As for the term "unquenchable," it only means no human will stop it.


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[TheBarrd]

"There is one caveat to what I just posted, and that is this:

If anyone believes -- and many do -- that in someway they can contribute to their salvation, they need to repent of that and ask for God's mercy. That is because salvation is ENTIRELY of God's works and His mercy. Yes, it's entirely HIS love and HIS mercy and HIS works that saves us. --brixken7
​

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Really!
Well that's great!
But this raises an important question. If you truly believe salvation is entirely the work of God, then HOW could you possibly have any doubts that He will save everyone (?) -- since it is clearly His stated will to to so (e.g., I Timothy 2:4).

What I said, I will continue to say.
We need not...indeed, we should not...argue about these things. These are things that belong strictly to God...we are not given any say in these matters, and we are not asked for our opinions.

What I think, for what little that may be worth, is that, when the time comes, what God will do will be something totally awesome, that no one ever even imagined. His "final answer" to these burning questions that seem to eat us up alive will be so flawless, and so elegant....and so endearingly simple...that we will be completely amazed that we never thought of it ourselves.
Till that time comes, there is very little use in arguing about it, as our foolish arguments will not serve to so much as bend a single blade of grass.

What I say is, believe in Jesus Christ, obey His commandments, love one another in deed and in truth...and trust Him to do what is right and just.

What other choices do we actually have????

 

[richard373]

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It all depends on what translation of the Bible you use. Many good translations of the Bible never once speak of "hell" or "eternal" punishment.

"In His book “God’s Methods with Man” the Rev. G. Campbell Morgan says this about the word “eternal”:

“Let me say to Bible students that we must be very careful how we use the word “eternity.” We have fallen into great error in our constant use of that word. There is no word in the whole Book of God corresponding with our “eternal,” which, as commonly used among us, means absolutely without end. The strongest Scripture word used with reference to the existence of God, is–“unto the ages of the ages,” which does not literally mean eternally.
-- George Campbell Morgan



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I think this is an important point. The Bible clearly refers to "ages" rather than eternity. And a central theme of Paul in particular is God's desire for reconciliation of the world; for those who can discern it he is indicating that salvation for the world is to be achieved through His chosen people, it is not exclusively for His chosen people:o. Yet the apostle makes it equally clear (along with every other writer of Scripture) that the wicked are to punished (2Thes1:8); so does Jesus but He (our Judge) also emphasises that the standard of judgement applied to men and women will correspond with human standards(Mt6:14; 7:2) which infers that they cannot be eternal in magnitude - which is not to say that they are still to be avoided at all costs.

 

[SarahsKnight]

That's a good point, Richard. Never thought of it that way.

 

[Der Alte]

I think this is an important point. The Bible clearly refers to "ages" rather than eternity. And a central theme of Paul in particular is God's desire for reconciliation of the world; for those who can discern it he is indicating that salvation for the world is to be achieved through His chosen people, it is not exclusively for His chosen people:o. Yet the apostle makes it equally clear (along with every other writer of Scripture) that the wicked are to punished (2Thes1:8); so does Jesus but He (our Judge) also emphasises that the standard of judgement applied to men and women will correspond with human standards(Mt6:14; 7:2) which infers that they cannot be eternal in magnitude - which is not to say that they are still to be avoided at all costs.

The writer may "imply" but only the reader can "infer." Where does Jesus say that God's punishment must correspond with human standards?

Aionio's" - A Lexical Survey

Nine language sources cited. Fourteen total references! 1. NAS Hebrew-Aramaic and Greek Dictionaries, 2. Thayer’s Lexicon, 3. Vine’s Expository of Biblical Words, 3 references, 4. Louw-Nida Greek English Lexicon of the NT based on Semantic Domains, 2 references, 5. Theological Dictionary of the New Testament, 6. Abridged Greek lexicon, Liddell-Scott, 7. Enhanced Strong’s Lexicon, 3 references, 8. Bauer, Arndt, Gingrich, Danker Greek English Lexicon of the NT and other Early Christian Literature, 9. Concise Greek-English Dictionary of the NT.

Aion, Aionios and the lexicons:
166. αιωνιος aionios; from 165; agelong, eternal:— eternal(66), eternity(1), forever(1).

Thomas, Robert L., Th.D., General Editor, New American Standard Hebrew-Aramaic and Greek Dictionaries,​

166 aionios- αιωνιος
1) without beginning and end, what has always been and always will be
2) without beginning
3) without end, never to cease, everlasting

---Thayers​

2. &#945;&#953;&#969;&#957;&#953;&#959;&#962; aionios [166] "describes duration, either undefined but not endless, as in <Rom. 16:25; 2 Tim. 1:9; Titus 1:2>; or undefined because endless as in <Rom. 16:26>, and the other sixty-six places in the NT.

"The predominant meaning of &#945;&#953;&#969;&#957;&#953;&#959;&#962; , that in which it is used everywhere in the NT, save the places noted above, may be seen in <2 Cor. 4:18>, where it is set in contrast with proskairos, lit., `for a season,' and in <Philem. 15>, where only in the NT it is used without a noun. Moreover it is used of persons and things which are in their nature endless, as, e. g., of God, <Rom. 16:26>; of His power, <1 Tim. 6:16>, and of His glory, <1 Pet. 5:10>; of the Holy Spirit, <Heb. 9:14>; of the redemption effected by Christ, <Heb. 9:12>, and of the consequent salvation of men, <5:9>, as well as of His future rule, <2 Pet. 1:11>, which is elsewhere declared to be without end, <Luke 1:33>; of the life received by those who believe in Christ, <John 3:16>, concerning whom He said, `they shall never perish,' <10:28>, and of the resurrection body, <2 Cor. 5:1>, elsewhere said to be `immortal,' <1 Cor. 15:53>, in which that life will be finally realized, <Matt. 25:46; Titus 1:2>.

&#945;&#953;&#969;&#957;&#953;&#959;&#962; is also used of the sin that `hath never forgiveness,' <Mark 3:29>, and of the judgment of God, from which there is no appeal, <Heb. 6:2>, and of the fire, which is one of its instruments, <Matt. 18:8; 25:41; Jude 7>, and which is elsewhere said to be `unquenchable,' <Mark 9:43>.
"The use of &#945;&#953;&#969;&#957;&#953;&#959;&#962; here shows that the punishment referred to in <2 Thes. 1:9>, is not temporary, but final, and, accordingly, the phraseology shows that its purpose is not remedial but retributive."

From Notes on Thessalonians, by Hogg and Vine, pp 232, 233. (from Vine's Expository Dictionary of Biblical Words) (Copyright (C) 1985, Thomas Nelson Publishers)​

67.96 &#945;&#953;&#969;&#957;&#953;&#959;&#962; aji>vdio", on; aijwvnio", on: pertaining to an unlimited duration of time - ‘eternal.’
aji>vdio"ò h{ te aji>vdio" aujtou` duvnami" kai; qeiovth" ‘his eternal power and divine nature’ Ro 1.20.
aijwvnio"ò blhqh`nai eij" to; pu`r to; aijwvnion ‘be thrown into the eternal fire’ Mt 18.8; tou` aijwnivou qeou` ‘of the eternal God’ Ro 16.26.

The most frequent use of &#945;&#953;&#969;&#957;&#953;&#959;&#962; in the NT is with zwhv ‘life,’ for example, i{na pa`" oJ pisteuvwn ejn aujtw/` e[ch/ zwh;n aijwvnion ‘so that everyone who believes in him may have eternal life’ Jn 3.15. In combination with zwhv there is evidently not only a temporal element, but also a qualitative distinction. In such contexts, &#945;&#953;&#969;&#957;&#953;&#959;&#962; evidently carries certain implications associated with &#945;&#953;&#969;&#957;&#953;&#959;&#962; in relationship to divine and supernatural attributes. If one translates ‘eternal life’ as simply ‘never dying,’ there may be serious misunderstandings, since persons may assume that ‘never dying’ refers only to physical existence rather than to ‘spiritual death.’ Accordingly, some translators have rendered ‘eternal life’ as ‘unending real life,’ so as to introduce a qualitative distinction.

Louw, Johannes P. and Nida, Eugene A., Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament based on Semantic Domains, (New York: United Bible Societies) 1988, 1989.​

&#945;&#953;&#969;&#957;&#953;&#959;&#962; aionios. An adjective meaning “eternal,” and found in the LXX in Pss. 24; 77:5; Gen. 21:33, aionios in the NT is used 1. of God (Rom. 16:26), 2. of divine possessions and gifts (2 Cor. 4:18; Heb. 9:14; 1 Pet. 5:10; 1 Tim. 6:16; 2 Th. 2:16, and 3. of the eternal kingdom (2 Pet. 1:11), inheritance (Heb. 9:15), body (2 Cor. 5:1), and even judgment (Heb. 6:2, though cf. Mt. 18:8; 2 Th. 1:9, where the sense is perhaps “unceasing”).

Kittel, Gerhard, and Friedrich, Gerhard, Editors, The Theological Dictionary of the New Testament, Abridged in One Volume, (Grand Rapids, Michigan: William B. Eerdmans Publishing Company) 1985.​

&#945;&#953;&#969;&#957;&#953;&#959;&#962; aionios ", ov and a, ov, lasting for an age (aion 3), Plat.: ever-lasting, eternal, Id.

Liddell, H. G., and Scott, Abridged Greek-English Lexicon, (Oxford: Oxford University Press) 1992.​

166 aionios { ahee-o’-nee-os} &#945;&#953;&#969;&#957;&#953;&#959;&#962; from 165; TDNT - 1:208,31; adj
AV - eternal 42, everlasting 25, the world began + 5550 2, since the world began + 5550 1, for ever 1; 71
GK - 173 { aionios }
1) without beginning and end, that which always has been and always will be
2) without beginning
3) without end, never to cease, everlasting

Enhanced Strong’s Lexicon, (Oak Harbor, WA: Logos Research Systems, Inc.) 1995.​

CL The Gk. word &#945;&#953;&#969;&#957; aion, which is probably derived from aei, … It thus appeared appropriate to later philosophers to use the word both for the dim and distant past, the beginning of the world, and for the far future, eternity (e.g. Plato, Tim. 37d).

Plato [c. 423 – 347 BCE](Timoeus, ed. Steph. 3, 37, or ed. Baiter, Orell. et Winck. 712) says, speaking of the universe: …The nature therefore of the animal (living being) was eternal (aionios, before aidios), and this indeed it was impossible to adapt to what was produced (to genneto, to what had a beginning); he thinks to make a moveable image of eternity (aionos), and in adoring the heavens he makes of the eternity permanent in unity a certain eternal image moving in number, … And after unfolding this, he says (p. 38): "But these forms of time imitating eternity (aiona), and rolling round according to number, have had a beginning (gegonen).... For that pattern exists for all eternity (panta aiona estin on), but on the other hand, that which is perpetual (dia telous) throughout all time has had a beginning, and is, and will be." … Aion is what is properly eternal, in contrast with a divine imitation of it in ages of time, the result of the creative action of God which imitated the uncreate as nearly as He could in created ages.. ]

In Plato the term is developed so as to represent a timeless, immeasurable and transcendent super-time, an idea of time in itself. Plutarch and the earlier Stoics appropriate this understanding, and from it the Mysteries of Aion, the god of eternity, could be celebrated in Alexandria, and gnosticism could undertake its own speculations on time.
* * *

NIDNTT Colin Brown​

Wherefore neither in place are things there formed by nature; nor does time cause them to grow old: neither is there any change of anything of those things which are arranged beyond the outermost orbit; but unchangeable, and subject to no influence, having the best and most independent life, they continue for all eternity (aiona). … According to the same word (logon) the completeness of the whole heaven, and the completeness which embraces all time and infinitude is aion, having received this name from existing for ever (apo tou aei einai), immortal (athanatos, undying), and divine." In 10 he goes on to shew that that beginning to be (genesthai) involves the not existing always, which I refer to as shewing what he means by aion. He is proving the unchangeable eternity of the visible universe. That is no business of mine; but it shews what he means by eternity (aion). It cannot be aidion and genesthai at the same time, when, as in Plato, aidios is used as equivalent to aionios​

 

[Der Alte]

Philo c. 25 BCE – c. 50 CE , the sentence is in De Mundo, 7, en aioni de oute pareleluthen ouden, oute mellei, alla monon iphesteken. Such a definition needs no explanation: in eternity nothing is passed, nothing is about to be, but only subsists. This has the importance of being of the date and Hellenistic Greek of the New Testament, as the others give the regular, and at the same time philosophical force of the word, aion, aionios. Eternity, unchangeable, with no 'was' nor 'will be,' is its proper force, that it can be applied to the whole existence of a thing, so that nothing of its nature was before true or after is true, to telos to periechon. But its meaning is eternity, and eternal. … That is, things that are for a time are put in express contrast with aionia, which are not for a time, be it age or ages, but eternal. Nothing can be more decisive of its positive and specific meaning.

0166 aionios &#945;&#953;&#969;&#957;&#953;&#959;&#962; without beginning or end, eternal, everlasting
LEH lxx lexicon
UBS GNT Dict. # 169 (Str#166)
aionios eternal (of quality rather than of time); unending, everlasting, for all time
&#945;&#953;&#969;&#957;&#953;&#959;&#962; (iva Pla., Tim. 38b; Jer 39:40; Ezk 37:26; 2 Th 2:16; Hb 9:12; as v.l. Ac 13:48; 2 Pt 1:11; Bl-D. §59, 2; Mlt.-H. 157), on eternal (since Hyperid. 6, 27; Pla.; inscr., pap., LXX; Ps.-Phoc. 112; Test. 12 Patr.; standing epithet for princely, esp. imperial power: Dit., Or. Index VIII; BGU 176; 303; 309; Sb 7517, 5 [211/2 ad] kuvrio" aij.; al. in pap.; Jos., Ant. 7, 352).
1. without beginning crovnoi" aij. long ages ago Ro 16:25; pro; crovnwn aij. before time began 2 Ti 1:9; Tit 1:2 (on crovno" aij. cf. Dit., Or. 248, 54; 383, 10).
2. without beginning or end; of God (Ps.-Pla., Tim. Locr. 96c qeo;n t. aijwvnion; Inscr. in the Brit. Mus. 894 aij. k. ajqavnato"; Gen 21:33; Is 26:4; 40:28; Bar 4:8 al.; Philo, Plant. 8; 74; Sib. Or., fgm. 3, 17 and 4; PGM 1, 309; 13, 280) Ro 16:26; of the Holy Spirit in Christ Hb 9:14. qrovno" aij. 1 Cl 65:2 (cf. 1 Macc 2:57).
3. without end (Diod. S. 1, 1, 5; 5, 73, 1; 15, 66, 1 dovxa aij. everlasting fame; in Diod. S. 1, 93, 1 the Egyptian dead are said to have passed to their aij. …keep someone forever Phlm 15 (cf. Job 40:28). …On the other hand of eternal life (Maximus Tyr. 6, 1d qeou` zwh; aij.; Diod. S. 8, 15, 3 life meta; to;n qavnaton lasts eij" a{panta aijw`na; Da 12:2; 4 Macc 15:3; PsSol 3, 12; Philo, …carav IPhld inscr.; doxavzesqai aijwnivw/ e[rgw/ be glorified by an everlasting deed IPol 8:1. DHill, Gk. Words and Hebr. Mngs. ’67, 186-201. M-M.

Bauer, Walter, Gingrich, F. Wilbur, and Danker, Frederick W., A Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament and Other Early Christian Literature, (Chicago: University of Chicago Press) 1979.​

BIBLE STUDY MANUALS - AIONIOS -- AN IN DEPTH STUDY

&#945;&#953;&#969;&#957;&#953;&#959;&#962;
• Strong's - Greek 165

• NRSV (the uses of the word in various contexts in the NRSV text):
again, age, course, end, eternal, forever, permanent, time, world, worlds

• CGED (A Concise Greek-English Dictionary of the New Testament, by Barclay M. Newman, New York: United Bible Societies, 1993, page 5):
age; world order; eternity (ap aion or pro aion, from the beginning; eis aion, and the strengthened form eis tous aion, ton aion, always, forever);

• The New International Dictionary of New Testament Theology [NIDNTT], Volume 3 (edited by Colin Brown, Grand Rapids, Michigan: Zondervan, 1978, page 827, 830):

In Plato the term [aion] is developed so as to represent a timeless, immeasurable and transcendent super-time, an idea of time in itself. Plutarch and other earlier Stoics appropriate this understanding, and from it the Mysteries of Aion, the god of eternity, could be celebrated in Alexandria, and gnosticism could undertake its own speculations on time.

The statements of the Johannine [John, 1 John, 2 John, 3 John] writings, … reveal a strong inclination to conceive of a timeless, because post-temporal, eternity… As in the OT [Old Testament], these statements reveal the background conviction that God's life never ends, i.e. that everything belonging to him can also never come to an end…

aion - &#945;&#953;&#969;&#957; - age, world
A. "for ever, an unbroken age, perpetuity of time, eternity; the worlds, universe; period of time, age."

Enhanced Strong’s Lexicon, (Oak Harbor, WA: Logos Research Systems, Inc.) 1995, [Online] Available: Logos Library System.

• aionion, aionios – &#945;&#953;&#969;&#957;&#953;&#959;&#957;, &#945;&#953;&#969;&#957;&#953;&#959;&#962; - eternal
B. "aionios," the adjective corresponding, denoting eternal. It is used of that which in nature is endless, as, e.g., of God, (Rom. 16:26), His power, (1 Tim. 6:16), His glory, (1 Pet. 5:10), the Holy Spirit, (Heb. 9:14), redemption, (Heb. 9:12), salvation, (5:9), life in Christ, (John 3:16), the resurrection body, (2 Cor. 5:1), the future rule of Christ, (2 Pet. 1:11), which is declared to be without end, (Luke 1:33), of sin that never has forgiveness, (Mark 3:29), the judgment of God, (Heb. 6:2), and of fire, one of its instruments, (Matt. 18:8; 25:41; Jude 7)."
i. Rom. 16:26 - " . . .according to the commandment of the eternal God. . ."
ii. 1 Tim. 6:16 - ". . . To Him be honor and eternal dominion! Amen."
iii. 1 Pet. 5:10 - " . . . who called you to His eternal glory in Christ,"
iv. Mark 3:29 - " . . . never has forgiveness, but is guilty of an eternal sin."
v. etc.

SOURCE: Vine, W. E., Vine’s Expository Dictionary of Old and New Testament Words, (Grand Rapids, MI: Fleming H. Revell) 1981, Available: Logos Library System.

• "describes duration, either undefined but not endless, as in Rom. 16:25; 2 Tim. 1:9; Tit. 1:2; or undefined because endless as in Rom. 16:26, and the other sixty–six places in the N.T.
A. Rom. 16:25 - " . . which has been kept secret for long ages past,"
B. Rom 16:26 - ". . . according to the commandment of the eternal God,"
C. 2 Tim. 1:9 - ". . . which was granted us in Christ Jesus from all eternity,"
D. Titus 1:2 - "the hope of eternal life, which God, who cannot lie, promised" long ages ago"

SOURCE: Vine, W. E., Vine’s Expository Dictionary of Old and New Testament Words, (Grand Rapids, MI: Fleming H. Revell) 1981, [Online] Available: Logos Library System)

• Eis tous aionios ton aionion – &#949;&#953;&#962; &#964;&#959;&#965;&#962; &#945;&#953;&#969;&#957;&#945;&#962; &#964;&#969;&#957; &#945;&#953;&#969;&#957;&#953;&#969;&#959;&#957; - Forever and Ever, Lit. "into the age of the ages"
A. "unlimited duration of time, with particular focus upon the future - ‘always, forever, forever and ever, eternally."
B. Phil. 4:20 - ". . .to our God and Father be the glory forever and ever."
C. Rev. 19:3 - " . . .Her smoke rises up forever and ever."
D. Rev. 20:20 - "And the devil who deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are also; and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever."

SOURCE: Louw, Johannes P. and Nida, Eugene A., Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament based on Semantic Domains, (New York: United Bible Societies) 1988, 1989, Available: Logos Library System.​

What do Greek dictionaries say about "aionion" | Christian Apologetics and Research Ministry

 

[richard373]

The writer may "imply" but only the reader can "infer." Where does Jesus say that God's punishment must correspond with human standards?

"The judgements you give are the judgements you shall get, and the standard you use will be the standard used for you" (JC -Mt7:2). The One who spoke those words should know - He will be doing the judging for the Father judges no one but has committed all judgement to the Son (Jn5:22). I don't know about you but however badly someone sins against me I do not regard them as deserving eternal torment. As for the love that defines God's character (1Jn4:8) it must be in accordance with love as Scripture defines it (1Cor13:4-5) - compassionate beyond measure yet not devoid of wrath, hating cruelty and injustice and determined to punish it severely in those who do not repent of it. Yet His punishments will be seen to be right and just by all just men (Rev19:1,2), and those whose spirits are in union with Christ and (like Paul) have His mind (1Cor2:16) may already discern these things.

 

[OldShepherd]

N.T.

 

[TheBarrd]

N.T.

Of course. I wish I'd thought of that....

 

[Der Alte]

"The judgements you give are the judgements you shall get, and the standard you use will be the standard used for you" (JC -Mt7:2). The One who spoke those words should know - He will be doing the judging for the Father judges no one but has committed all judgement to the Son (Jn5:22).

Man can only judge other men temporally not eternally. Jesus is talking about the temporal judgment men will get when they judge other men.

I don't know about you but however badly someone sins against me I do not regard them as deserving eternal torment.

Irrelevant! You are not God. You are trying to substitute finite, fallible human reasoning for the infinite, infallible judgment of God.

As for the love that defines God's character (1Jn4:8) it must be in accordance with love as Scripture defines it (1Cor13:4-5) - compassionate beyond measure yet not devoid of wrath, hating cruelty and injustice and determined to punish it severely in those who do not repent of it. Yet His punishments will be seen to be right and just by all just men (Rev19:1,2), and those whose spirits are in union with Christ and (like Paul) have His mind (1Cor2:16) may already discern these things.

"compassionate beyond measure yet not devoid of wrath, hating cruelty and injustice" I can't find these words in the verses you listed.

Concerning "compassionate beyond measure yet not devoid of wrath, hating cruelty and injustice" Note this passage from Jeremiah. God said “I have caused to cleave” That word is &#1492;&#1491;&#1489;&#1511;&#1514;&#1497;/ha’dabaq’thi. It is in the perfect or completed sense. God’s will, expressly stated, for the whole house of Israel and Judah, not just an elect, predestined, chosen, few, was for all of Israel and all of Judah to cling to God as a belt clings to a man’s waist. It was done, finished, completed, in God’s sight, and, according to some arguments presented, nothing man can do will cause God’s will to not be done. But they, Israel and Judah, would not hear and obey, their will, vs. God’s will, So God destroyed them, vs. 14.

This passage very much speaks to God’s sovereign will, and man’s free will and agency. God stated very clearly what His will was, in terms that cannot be misunderstood. But, because the Israelites would not hear, and obey, God destroyed them, instead of them being unto God, “for a people, and for a name, and for a praise, and for a glory, vs. 10.”

Jer 13:1 Thus saith the LORD unto me, Go and get thee a linen girdle, and put it upon thy loins, and put it not in water.
2 So I got a girdle according to the word of the LORD, and put it on my loins.
3 And the word of the LORD came unto me the second time, saying,
4 Take the girdle that thou hast got, which is upon thy loins, and arise, go to Euphrates, and hide it there in a hole of the rock.
5 So I went, and hid it by Euphrates, as the LORD commanded me.
6 And it came to pass after many days, that the LORD said unto me, Arise, go to Euphrates, and take the girdle from thence, which I commanded thee to hide there.
7 Then I went to Euphrates, and digged, and took the girdle from the place where I had hid it: and, behold, the girdle was marred, it was profitable for nothing.
8 Then the word of the LORD came unto me, saying,
9 Thus saith the LORD, After this manner will I mar the pride of Judah, and the great pride of Jerusalem.
10 This evil people, which refuse to hear my words, which walk in the imagination of their heart, and walk after other gods, to serve them, and to worship them, shall even be as this girdle, which is good for nothing.
11 For as the girdle cleaveth to the loins of a man, so have I caused to cleave [&#1492;&#1491;&#1489;&#1511;&#1514;&#1497;/ha’dabaq’thi] unto me the whole house of Israel and the whole house of Judah, saith the LORD; that they might be unto me for a people, and for a name, and for a praise, and for a glory: but they would not hear.
[size=-1]• • •[/size]
14 And I will dash them one against another, even the fathers and the sons together, saith the LORD: I will not pity, nor spare, nor have mercy, but destroy them.​

Note, verse 14, God said He will NOT have pity, will NOT spare, and will NOT have mercy but destroy them.

 

[richard373]

Man can only judge other men temporally not eternally. Jesus is talking about the temporal judgment men will get when they judge other men..

But as Jesus well knew, many do not receive such a temporal judgement from men. The Pharisees were revered and respected by many - their judgements of others were harsh and hypocritical. Their comeuppance will not be from man but God. Likewise God has promised to be merciful to those who show mercy: that unequivocally refers to God's judgement not man's.

Irrelevant! You are not God. You are trying to substitute finite, fallible human reasoning for the infinite, infallible judgment of God.

I am not God but Jesus is: “Have I been with you so long and yet you have not known Me, Philip? He who has seen Me has seen the Father” (Jn14:9). The incarnate Word came in part to reveal God's compassionate nature and intelligible justice to the World He loves and wishes to heal. I seek to apply the principles of justice and kindness that Jesus Himself demonstrated - not as "the compassionate face of God" but the express image of His Father - the God who is Love.

This passage very much speaks to God’s sovereign will, and man’s free will and agency. God stated very clearly what His will was, in terms that cannot be misunderstood. But, because the Israelites would not hear, and obey, God destroyed them, instead of them being unto God, “for a people, and for a name, and for a praise, and for a glory, vs. 10.”

And this is surely right and just. The people who were privileged to be called His own knew His will and yet deliberately disobeyed it. Their destruction is just but it is not opposed to the enlightened human reasoning of those who have the mind of Christ.

“I AM who I am: the God of tenderness and compassion, slow to anger, rich in faithful love and constancy, maintaining his faithful love to thousands, forgiving fault crime and sin, yet letting nothing go unchecked, punishing the parent’s fault in the children and in the grandchildren unto the third and fourth generation (Ex34:6-7NJB)

This is the self portrait of the God who is to be loved and adored by His people for His intelligible justice. There is nothing opposed to sound human reason in any of the descriptions Yahweh provides for Himself or as expressed through the teaching or actions of His Son. Distortions have arisen through man's attempt to unravel the complexities of Holy Scripture, especially regarding the mystery of providence, and that task continues.

 

[Der Alte]

But as Jesus well knew, many do not receive such a temporal judgement from men.

Whether one "accepts" it or not men temporally judges them.

The Pharisees were revered and respected by many - their judgements of others were harsh and hypocritical. Their comeuppance will not be from man but God. Likewise God has promised to be merciful to those who show mercy: that unequivocally refers to God's judgement not man's.

Is this a fact? What happened to the Pharisees ca. 70 AD?

I am not God but Jesus is: “Have I been with you so long and yet you have not known Me, Philip? He who has seen Me has seen the Father” (Jn14:9). The incarnate Word came in part to reveal God's compassionate nature and intelligible justice to the World He loves and wishes to heal. I seek to apply the principles of justice and kindness that Jesus Himself demonstrated - not as "the compassionate face of God" but the express image of His Father - the God who is Love.

I was not discussing what you seek to apply but God's judgment

And this is surely right and just. The people who were privileged to be called His own knew His will and yet deliberately disobeyed it. Their destruction is just but it is not opposed to the enlightened human reasoning of those who have the mind of Christ.

Not sure how, if at all, this addresses the topic "universal reconciliation."

“I AM who I am: the God of tenderness and compassion, slow to anger, rich in faithful love and constancy, maintaining his faithful love to thousands, forgiving fault crime and sin, yet letting nothing go unchecked, punishing the parent’s fault in the children and in the grandchildren unto the third and fourth generation (Ex34:6-7NJB)

This is the self portrait of the God who is to be loved and adored by His people for His intelligible justice. There is nothing opposed to sound human reason in any of the descriptions Yahweh provides for Himself or as expressed through the teaching or actions of His Son. Distortions have arisen through man's attempt to unravel the complexities of Holy Scripture, especially regarding the mystery of providence, and that task continues.

I still don't see how this addresses the topic.

 

[richard373]

I still don't see how this addresses the topic.

You are quite right, not all my points directly address that issue, neither am I claiming that Scripture positively affirms absolute universal reconciliation, which would anyway oppose the current understanding of my adopted church ( ). I am simply demonstrating that God's character as it is revealed in Scripture and especially in the person of His Son indicates that the Godhead is truly compassionate and loving as human beings generally understand those terms . That does have a bearing on these issues in that we can be sure that the divine Glory will not act against His own Nature when He determines the eternal fate of those created in His own image, albeit an image that has been defiled through the disobedience of our first parents.

 

[richard373]

Further to the above which was posted very late last night (UK) by which time I'd rather forgotten why I came on to this thread in the first place (a senior moment). That had been to argue that although Scripture (and my adopted Church) do not positively affirm absolute universal reconciliation, they do support the concept that God's plan is to reconcile the world to Himself through His chosen people rather than merely to deliver that chosen and sanctified band (His royal priesthood) and them alone from eternal torment, as I previously had understood the matter as a Calvinist. The earlier communications with DA were to try to show that God&#8217;s character truly is loving and compassionate in the sense those qualities are understood by human beings, indeed understood and experienced in measure by those who through elective grace already participate in the divine nature (2Pet1:4). Such qualities are certainly more conducive to reconciling than banishing or tormenting any who are willing to be brought to their senses and submit to the Lordship of Christ, and according to that same apostle (if taken literally), that can occur after physical death (e.g. 1Pet3:19,20; 1Pet4:6). Paul also places emphasis on God&#8217;s broader reconciliatory purposes but I will need to look back through the thread to see what scriptures have been produced thus far to support the case.

 

[brixken7]

[FONT=&quot]God "...will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth" [/FONT][FONT=&quot](I Timothy 2:4).[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]That's pretty tough to believe, isn't it. [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]And the original Greek doesn't say God merely "hopes" to save all, it says He is "willing" to save all, meaning God is [/FONT][FONT=&quot]ready, eager, and prepared to do this! Not at all reluctant! This fact is born out in Isaiah 53:10, for a great many translations tell us that God "was pleased" to sacrifice His son for us all.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]"All" would include all young children who have ever lived, all the [FONT=&quot]mentally deficient, [/FONT]all the insane who have ever lived, all of the billions of people who, not knowing God, have worshipped false gods, and "all" would even include those who have led extremely wicked lives. So are all of these multiple billions of His creation actually going to learn the truth and be saved as God claims?[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]In most people's minds that's indeed very hard to believe -- even for most professing Christians. But as the evangelist Paul Finkenbinder (aka, Hermano Pablo) stated many years ago:[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]"Pessimism is sin."[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]For proof of this he gave the example of how the Israelites who had been sent to spy out the Promised Land, came back with a very gloomy, pessimistic report. You can read of this in Numbers 13:25-33. Basically, their message was that the land promised by God was impossible to take because of its "strong" defenders and "very great" walled cities. What God had promised them, they considered unachievable and absolutely impossible to obtain! To them there was NO WAY that Israel could enter and take the land that God had promised them! [/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]But this lack of faith in God's promise had very serious repercussions, even more serious than their constant complaining after leaving Egypt, and even more serious than their idolatrous worshipping of their molten calf! The Bible clearly states that it was this lack of faith, this unbelief -- and the unbelief of those who heard their message -- that resulted in God (in the Person of Christ) not granting to them entrance into this Promised Land (Hebrews 3:18-19; 4:6,11). Today, in much the same negative vein, we hear religious leaders and Bible teachers claim that God is incapable of bringing us all into the Promised Land. And like the reasoning of old, it's usually based upon a faulty premise that we cannot count on God to do it all, so it's up to us.[/FONT][FONT=&quot]
[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Some even claim that God has no desire to save everyone, or that He is hampered by man's supposed "free will" and needs "our permission" to save us! The result is the same. The pessimism and unbelief that existed amongst God's people in ancient Israel, is prevalent today throughout the modern churches, churches composed of people who likewise claim the 'Promised Land' -- be it heaven or a New Earth -- will not be attainable for most people!
[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]The truth is that if we want God to save us in this life, then we need to trust in Him, have faith in Him, rely upon Him, and most of all -- love and BELIEVE Him. Our salvation is dependent upon it.[/FONT]

 

[Der Alte]

God "...will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth" (I Timothy 2:4).

That's pretty tough to believe, isn't it.
And the original Greek doesn't say God merely "hopes" to save all, it says He is "willing" to save all, meaning God is ready, eager, and prepared to do this! Not at all reluctant! This fact is born out in Isaiah 53:10, for a great many translations tell us that God "was pleased" to sacrifice His son for us all.

"All" would include all young children who have ever lived, all the mentally deficient, all the insane who have ever lived, all of the billions of people who, not knowing God, have worshipped false gods, and "all" would even include those who have led extremely wicked lives. So are all of these multiple billions of His creation actually going to learn the truth and be saved as God claims?

In most people's minds that's indeed very hard to believe -- even for most professing Christians. But as the evangelist Paul Finkenbinder (aka, Hermano Pablo) stated many years ago:

"Pessimism is sin."

For proof of this he gave the example of how the Israelites who had been sent to spy out the Promised Land, came back with a very gloomy, pessimistic report. You can read of this in Numbers 13:25-33. Basically, their message was that the land promised by God was impossible to take because of its "strong" defenders and "very great" walled cities. What God had promised them, they considered unachievable and absolutely impossible to obtain! To them there was NO WAY that Israel could enter and take the land that God had promised them!

But this lack of faith in God's promise had very serious repercussions, even more serious than their constant complaining after leaving Egypt, and even more serious than their idolatrous worshipping of their molten calf! The Bible clearly states that it was this lack of faith, this unbelief -- and the unbelief of those who heard their message -- that resulted in God (in the Person of Christ) not granting to them entrance into this Promised Land (Hebrews 3:18-19; 4:6,11). Today, in much the same negative vein, we hear religious leaders and Bible teachers claim that God is incapable of bringing us all into the Promised Land. And like the reasoning of old, it's usually based upon a faulty premise that we cannot count on God to do it all, so it's up to us.

Some even claim that God has no desire to save everyone, or that He is hampered by man's supposed "free will" and needs "our permission" to save us! The result is the same. The pessimism and unbelief that existed amongst God's people in ancient Israel, is prevalent today throughout the modern churches, churches composed of people who likewise claim the 'Promised Land' -- be it heaven or a New Earth -- will not be attainable for most people!

The truth is that if we want God to save us in this life, then we need to trust in Him, have faith in Him, rely upon Him, and most of all -- love and BELIEVE Him. Our salvation is dependent upon it.

My previous post this thread on this point.

Man can only judge other men temporally not eternally. Jesus is talking about the temporal judgment men will get when they judge other men.

Irrelevant! You are not God. You are trying to substitute finite, fallible human reasoning for the infinite, infallible judgment of God.

"compassionate beyond measure yet not devoid of wrath, hating cruelty and injustice" I can't find these words in the verses you listed.

Concerning "compassionate beyond measure yet not devoid of wrath, hating cruelty and injustice" Note this passage from Jeremiah. God said “I have caused to cleave” That word is &#1492;&#1491;&#1489;&#1511;&#1514;&#1497;/ha’dabaq’thi. It is in the perfect or completed sense. God’s will, expressly stated, for the whole house of Israel and Judah, not just an elect, predestined, chosen, few, was for all of Israel and all of Judah to cling to God as a belt clings to a man’s waist. It was done, finished, completed, in God’s sight, and, according to some arguments presented, nothing man can do will cause God’s will to not be done. But they, Israel and Judah, would not hear and obey, their will, vs. God’s will, So God destroyed them, vs. 14.

This passage very much speaks to God’s sovereign will, and man’s free will and agency. God stated very clearly what His will was, in terms that cannot be misunderstood. But, because the Israelites would not hear, and obey, God destroyed them, instead of them being unto God, “for a people, and for a name, and for a praise, and for a glory, vs. 10.”

Jer 13:1 Thus saith the LORD unto me, Go and get thee a linen girdle, and put it upon thy loins, and put it not in water.
2 So I got a girdle according to the word of the LORD, and put it on my loins.
3 And the word of the LORD came unto me the second time, saying,
4 Take the girdle that thou hast got, which is upon thy loins, and arise, go to Euphrates, and hide it there in a hole of the rock.
5 So I went, and hid it by Euphrates, as the LORD commanded me.
6 And it came to pass after many days, that the LORD said unto me, Arise, go to Euphrates, and take the girdle from thence, which I commanded thee to hide there.
7 Then I went to Euphrates, and digged, and took the girdle from the place where I had hid it: and, behold, the girdle was marred, it was profitable for nothing.
8 Then the word of the LORD came unto me, saying,
9 Thus saith the LORD, After this manner will I mar the pride of Judah, and the great pride of Jerusalem.
10 This evil people, which refuse to hear my words, which walk in the imagination of their heart, and walk after other gods, to serve them, and to worship them, shall even be as this girdle, which is good for nothing.
11 For as the girdle cleaveth to the loins of a man, so have I caused to cleave [&#1492;&#1491;&#1489;&#1511;&#1514;&#1497;/ha’dabaq’thi] unto me the whole house of Israel and the whole house of Judah, saith the LORD; that they might be unto me for a people, and for a name, and for a praise, and for a glory: but they would not hear.
[size=-1]• • •​

14 And I will dash them one against another, even the fathers and the sons together, saith the LORD: I will not pity, nor spare, nor have mercy, but destroy them.​

Note, verse 14, God said He will NOT have pity, will NOT spare, and will NOT have mercy but destroy them.[/SIZE]

 

[richard373]

[FONT=&quot]God "...will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth" [/FONT][FONT=&quot](I Timothy 2:4).[/FONT]


[FONT=&quot]"All" would include all young children who have ever lived, all the [FONT=&quot]mentally deficient, [/FONT]all the insane who have ever lived, all of the billions of people who, not knowing God, have worshipped false gods, and "all" would even include those who have led extremely wicked lives. So are all of these multiple billions of His creation actually going to learn the truth and be saved as God claims?[/FONT]

I may share some of your optimism with regard to the long term (we discussed) or at least keep an open mind about it - but when referring to the "extremely wicked", I have no doubt (from Scripture) that such are to be punished severely in order to satisfy the retributive aspect of God's justice. That cannot be satisfied by a blanket pardon which can be provided (if God so wishes, and as you say He does so wish) with regard to our offences against Himself thanks to the atonement of His Son. But He has promised in OT and NT to vindicate and AVENGE His persecuted people and will not go back on His promise. There is a "wrath to come" and people must be urged to flee from it to the safety and security that is only to be found "in Christ". You may not be denying that - having reviewed the Tentmaker (UR) forum I am confused by absolute universalists' position on post-mortem punishment other than the fact that it could never be eternal, concerning which I happily concur. R.

 

[Norah63]

I haven't followed along on this thread for a while. The footstool thing kind of made me drift off.
Do any think that the US will be the religion of the future? It seems to be the most believed by many young people, along with the idea of predestination. Leads to a safe and unfettered life?
There would be no need for forums if we all could agree, so this topic is on the unorthodox part. Many here use this area for a way to 'straighten out' the lds and others that they see as not fitting in. (just my opinion). so if everyone eventually does fit in, will we be pleased, or unsettled? Man's (woman's) ego is a fragile thing.
comparing it to the plans God may have for us may be more than we can understand at this point in time.
Anyway, I'm enjoying and learning from all of you, thanks!

 

[brixken7]

I may share some of your optimism with regard to the long term (we discussed) or at least keep an open mind about it - but when referring to the "extremely wicked", I have no doubt (from Scripture) that such are to be punished severely in order to satisfy the retributive aspect of God's justice. That cannot be satisfied by a blanket pardon which can be provided (if God so wishes, and as you say He does so wish) with regard to our offences against Himself thanks to the atonement of His Son. But He has promised in OT and NT to vindicate and AVENGE His persecuted people and will not go back on His promise. There is a "wrath to come" and people must be urged to flee from it to the safety and security that is only to be found "in Christ". You may not be denying that - having reviewed the Tentmaker (UR) forum I am confused by absolute universalists' position on post-mortem punishment other than the fact that it could never be eternal, concerning which I happily concur. R.

...................................................

If a person wants a real-life example of what God has in mind concerning the future punishment of the 'wicked,' then one only has to look at the example of Saul, who became the apostle Paul. Remember, he called himself "the chief of sinners" (I Timothy 1:15).

We should not doubt that he was indeed the chief of sinners for the way he persecuted and killed the early Christians, as well as being a "blasphemer" (I Timothy 1:13). It appears to me that the old adage of "an eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth" was God's way of what you would call "retribution" for Saul. For his stoning of others -- he was stoned, at least once, and died more than once (II Corinthians 11:23), apparently from the "blows" he suffered (CLNT version). And we should note that he was not only "flogged with rods," but received 39 stripes 5 times! This is in agreement with what Christ has told us regarding future punishment, that it may well include "stripes" (Luke 12:47-48).

"Welts and injury are the scouring agents against evil, and blows purge the chambers of the inner being" (Proverbs 20:30; Concordant version).

"Punishment that hurts chases evil from the heart" (same verse; The Living Bible).

"The lips of a stupid man bring him into controversy, and his mouth calls for beatings" (Proverbs 18:6; Concordant version).

"A rod is for the back of him that is void of understanding" (Proverbs 10:13); KJV). See also Deuteronomy 25:1-3).