Universal reconciliation

[SarahsKnight]

When it comes to the final fate of other sinners...well, this old sinner only wants to drop whatever stones might be hiding in my own pockets...and pray that God might have mercy on us all...
​

I "find no fault" in that attitude Barrd.

I don't think any of us should.


... Well, Westboro probably would, though.

 

[Hillsage]

I don't think any of us should.
... Well, Westboro probably would, though.

Oh no Sarah, My answer really is wrong, because I've been to their website and 'they believe the bible'. Why, they even have smart lawyers in the family who quote 'the bible' on their website. Why, I almost 'converted' when I read their really, really smart answers for treating homosexuals like they do....NOT. So much for degree-d theology from those devoid of the Spirit of truth...IMO. I hope I haven't infracted any rules here, since they are Westboro BAPTIST.

 

[Der Alte]

"Footstool never means 'temple' or 'dwelling place.' "
-- Der Alter

......................

No? Then what does God mean when He repeatedly says throughout the Bible...

"Sit thou at my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool"?

....and what does King David mean when he said for us to worship at God's "footstool"?
(Psalm 99:5 and 132:7)

I notice how you totally ignored the definitions of the Hebrew words for footstool that I posted, which I am reposting here. If God's enemies are God or the Messiah's footstool, how does that make "footstool" mean temple or dwelling place?

Were God's enemies, God's footstool at the time David wrote the Psalms? No, they had not been defeated and still are not God's footstool! In the two sets of definitions below "footstool" is never defined as "temple" or "dwelling place," either literally or figuratively

From Strong's Concordance!

הֲדֹם hădôm had-ome'
From an unused root meaning to stamp upon; a foot stool: - [foot-] stool.

כֶּבֶשׁ kebesh keh'-besh
From H3533; a footstool (as trodden upon): - footstool.

רֶגֶל regel reh'-gel
From H7270; a foot (as used in walking); by implication a step; by euphemism the pudenda: - X be able to endure, X according as, X after, X coming, X follow, ([broken-]) foot ([-ed, -stool]), X great toe, X haunt, X journey, leg, + + possession, time.​

From Brown, Driver, Briggs Lexicon of OT Hebrew.

רגל regel
BDB Definition:
1) foot
1a) foot, leg
1b) of God (anthropomorphic)
1c) of seraphim, cherubim, idols, animals, table
1d) according to the pace of (with preposition)
1e) three times (feet, paces)
Part of Speech: noun feminine

הדם hădôm
BDB Definition:
1) stool, footstool
Part of Speech: noun masculine
A Related Word by BDB/Strong’s Number: from an unused root meaning to stamp upon
Same Word by TWOT Number: 474

כּבשׁ kebesh
BDB Definition:
1) footstool
Part of Speech: noun masculine
A Related Word by BDB/Strong’s Number: from H3533
Same Word by TWOT Number: 951a​

 

[TheBarrd]

It doesn't just "seem" more merciful...it 'IS' more merciful.

But that couldn't be. Because if Jesus didn't save the world, then he must have 'missed the mark' according to orthodox thinking....and, if you 'think' about it...even annihilationist thinking. And if Jesus 'missed the mark' why that would make Him a sinner, and that really is a dilemma.

Now that sounds like the majority of non Spirit led/guided Christianity, in their theological conclusions.....IMO.

1CO 2:9 But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him. 10 But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God.

Colossians 1:20 And, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things unto himself; by him, I say, whether they be things in earth, or things in heaven.

What 'things' may I ask, needed to be 'reconciled in heaven'?

I "find no fault" in that attitude Barrd.

Thank you, Hillsage.
Darned if you haven't got me nearly convinced that Universalism might be the Lord's "final answer".

 

[TheBarrd]

I don't think any of us should.


... Well, Westboro probably would, though.

I wonder what God thinks of Westboro Baptists?

 

[SarahsKnight]

You know, Sir Barrd, for a long time I worried that God was exactly like the one that cultish and hateful-sounding people like Westboro church members believed in, that they were somehow the ones in the right, with "the truth" and all on their side, but after some times spent dealing with my sickness (which I believe was scrupulosity, sometimes called "the doubting disease") that caused me to worry about things like this, I finally managed to come to the conclusion that, you know what? Who cares? They could be right, and then again they could not, and the Bible has enough support to make God out to be entirely different than the TULIP Calvinist kind of one who, as I remember one of the Phelps' family members saying on camera, created us all just to damn and torture most of us for eternity, and there was literally nothing we could do about it, because Jesus came to save literally only a distinct few, so that the few could praise Him for liking them enough to save them and glorying in the eternal torment of the rest because they believe it is also His glory to doom them to something like that.

And finally I managed to just settle everything this way: you know what? If it's somehow true, there's nothing I could have done about it anyway. This would mean that what I believed to be the Holy Spirit to be guiding me in my heart all this time was a lie and a deception that God predestined me to because He created me to hate me. And again, this kind of God is fatalsitic, so what could I have done or do to change it? I might as well go on living and thinking He is better than that, because if it is wrong, I was literally predestined to it, so I am in fact doing His will, if His will is indeed to hate and throw most of humanity into hell, as the people of Westboro and some other extremists like that believe (not all Calvinists, mind you; just the ones who take the theology to the extreme). And guess what? There's more than enough evidence in the Bible and in my conscience to indicate that He is in fact not like that at all. And I might as well go on hoping and believing in it. Again, if it isn't the Holy Spirit in my conscience but some deceiving demon, then I suppose that whole thing with testing the spirits in 1 John 4 wasn't meant to be taken at face value, and that somehow demons can actually acknowledge Jesus Christ as having come in the flesh to save us, after all. Wouldn't make much sense, though, seeing as verse 2 there straight up says any spirit that acknowledges this is from God, and any spirit that does not is not from God.


Honestly, if universal reconciliation turns out to be true, I totally admit I will take some pleasure in seeing haters like Westboro look on helplessly as those whom they were so eager to insult and condemn enter the Kingdom of Heaven before themselves, sputtering and pouting in disbelief that they ended up being wrong: "B - B - But, ... Gooooood! What about the hellfire and worms gnawing at those wretched homosexuals alive as they scream and lament forever and ever while we get to watch and point with glee?"

And then Jesus would probably turn to them and be like, "What, seriously? What's the matter with you guys? You might need some rehabilitation in that lake of fire over there."



But hey, at least there I am saying that, as much as I dislike the people of Westboro, I still wouldn't wish for eternal torment to befall them. Of course I wouldn't. I wouldn't even wish it on my worst enemy, ... or Hitler, seeing as he is the most famous subject to decide the ultimate fate on in discussions of UR vs. ECT vs. annihilationism. Hey, everybody wants justice (their version of it) for everyone else who did bad stuff in their life, but themselves. Let's be honest with ourselves, guys. Nearly all of us are consistently like that or have experienced a moment or two of such glaring pride in ourselves. And some people can come up with all the verses they want to try to justify their judgments all for the sake of finger-pointing upon others, but the fact of the matter remains that self-righteous BS was exactly the kind of thing that Jesus constantly got onto the Pharisees for in His time. He most certainly did admonish the adulterous woman to go and sin no more, but I totally don't remember Him ever getting up in the faces of she and other sinners like her. Just the guys who were obviously do-gooders only for show.


Sorry, kind of went off on a lot of aimless tangents there. But I think I've always been kind of obsessive-compulsive like that.

 

[TheBarrd]

You know, Sir Barrd, for a long time I worried that God was exactly like the one that cultish and hateful-sounding people like Westboro church members believed in, that they were somehow the ones in the right, with "the truth" and all on their side, but after some times spent dealing with my sickness (which I believe was scrupulosity, sometimes called "the doubting disease") that caused me to worry about things like this, I finally managed to come to the conclusion that, you know what? Who cares? They could be right, and then again they could not, and the Bible has enough support to make God out to be entirely different than the TULIP Calvinist kind of one who, as I remember one of the Phelps' family members saying on camera, created us all just to damn and torture most of us for eternity, and there was literally nothing we could do about it, because Jesus came to save literally only a distinct few, so that the few could praise Him for liking them enough to save them and glorying in the eternal torment of the rest because they believe it is also His glory to doom them to something like that.

And finally I managed to just settle everything this way: you know what? If it's somehow true, there's nothing I could have done about it anyway. This would mean that what I believed to be the Holy Spirit to be guiding me in my heart all this time was a lie and a deception that God predestined me to because He created me to hate me. And again, this kind of God is fatalsitic, so what could I have done or do to change it? I might as well go on living and thinking He is better than that, because if it is wrong, I was literally predestined to it, so I am in fact doing His will, if His will is indeed to hate and throw most of humanity into hell, as the people of Westboro and some other extremists like that believe (not all Calvinists, mind you; just the ones who take the theology to the extreme). And guess what? There's more than enough evidence in the Bible and in my conscience to indicate that He is in fact not like that at all. And I might as well go on hoping and believing in it. Again, if it isn't the Holy Spirit in my conscience but some deceiving demon, then I suppose that whole thing with testing the spirits in 1 John 4 wasn't meant to be taken at face value, and that somehow demons can actually acknowledge Jesus Christ as having come in the flesh to save us, after all. Wouldn't make much sense, though, seeing as verse 2 there straight up says any spirit that acknowledges this is from God, and any spirit that does not is not from God.


Honestly, if universal reconciliation turns out to be true, I totally admit I will take some pleasure in seeing haters like Westboro look on helplessly as those whom they were so eager to insult and condemn enter the Kingdom of Heaven before themselves, sputtering and pouting in disbelief that they ended up being wrong: "B - B - But, ... Gooooood! What about the hellfire and worms gnawing at those wretched homosexuals alive as they scream and lament forever and ever while we get to watch and point with glee?"

And then Jesus would probably turn to them and be like, "What, seriously? What's the matter with you guys? You might need some rehabilitation in that lake of fire over there."



But hey, at least there I am saying that, as much as I dislike the people of Westboro, I still wouldn't wish for eternal torment to befall them. Of course I wouldn't. I wouldn't even wish it on my worst enemy, ... or Hitler, seeing as he is the most famous subject to decide the ultimate fate on in discussions of UR vs. ECT vs. annihilationism. Hey, everybody wants justice (their version of it) for everyone else who did bad stuff in their life, but themselves. Let's be honest with ourselves, guys. Nearly all of us are consistently like that or have experienced a moment or two of such glaring pride in ourselves. And some people can come up with all the verses they want to try to justify their judgments all for the sake of finger-pointing upon others, but the fact of the matter remains that self-righteous BS was exactly the kind of thing that Jesus constantly got onto the Pharisees for in His time. He most certainly did admonish the adulterous woman to go and sin no more, but I totally don't remember Him ever getting up in the faces of she and other sinners like her. Just the guys who were obviously do-gooders only for show.


Sorry, kind of went off on a lot of aimless tangents there. But I think I've always been kind of obsessive-compulsive like that.

I would rather be found like the publican, crying for mercy, than the Pharisee, thanking God that he was 'better than other men'.
There is nothing in that scripture to indicate that the Pharisee was not, indeed, doing all the things he was telling God about.
But Jesus let us know which man was justified before God...and it wasn't the self-righteous Pharisee...

Edit:
Just so that you know, it is not "Sir Barrd"....rather it is "Lady Barrd".

 

[Der Alte]

I wonder what God thinks of Westboro Baptists?

Luk 19:41 And when he was come near, he beheld the city, and wept over it,

Mat 23:37 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!​

 

[SarahsKnight]

Edit:
Just so that you know, it is not "Sir Barrd"....rather it is "Lady Barrd".

Oh, I beg your pardon, Lady Barrd. It's like I never even bothered to look at the gender symbol next to your avatar this whole time, and just immediately assumed you were male simply because of the name that sounds like "bard" (which is what a singer of male gender in so much fantasy fiction is called, right?). My apologies.

 

[brixken7]

"I notice how you totally ignored the definitions of the Hebrew words for footstool that I posted, which I am re-posting here."
--Der Alter
................

You cannot use definitions for "footstool" from Strong's Concordance or Young's Concordance because they only give a LITERAL meaning. The term "footstool" most often has a figurative meaning, as a colloquialism, metaphor, or idiom, so you cannot find its definition in a concordance of the Bible. In fact, I personally never found even a Bible dictionary that defined it -- even tried to define it. God has hidden it quite well. So the answer is:

You have to focus on how the word is repeatedly used in the Bible.

That is sometimes the best way to find the true definition of a Greek word or term since the so-called Greek experts don't always agree. So, what is YOUR definition of the term "footstool"?

Haven't heard that yet.
_________________________________________

"If God's enemies are God or the Messiah's footstool, how does that make "footstool" mean temple or dwelling place?"
-- Der Alter
................

We know the term "feet" means "one's person.
So logically where you place you feet -- on a footstool -- is where you live. It's your "dwelling place"!

Back in ancient Israel, God chose to dwell in the tabernacle (or temple) in Zion, He "desired it for his habitation" (Psalm 132:13; KJV), "as His dwelling place" (same verse, Concordant version). Thus we read...

"We will go into his tabernacle: we will worship at His footstool" (verse 7), meaning His dwelling place.
__________________________________________

"Were God's enemies, God's footstool at the time David wrote the Psalms? No, they had not been defeated and still are not God's footstool!
--Der Alter
..............

That's true. But this Footstool Prophecy does eventually include everyone, which is why God repeats this prophecy throughout the Bible over and over. Now, we Christians were at one time 'enemies' of Christ, but we are now the temple of God (II Corinthians 6:16); we are where God dwells (same verse). God's temple on this earth was His footstool (Isaiah 66:1) and now His people, on this earth, are His "footstool" (Matthew 5:35; Acts 7:49).

Likewise, the world with its billions of inhabitants, is counted as Christ enemy (James 4:4), but they too will become Christ's dwelling place, His footstool, when God pours out His holy spirit upon "all flesh" (Joel 2:28) at the Great White Throne judgment!

 

[TheBarrd]

*peeking around the door*

So, have you guys reached a general consensus yet? Figured God out, yet?

I'm reminded of an old saying"

If you want to make God laugh, tell Him your plans.

To this I would add,

If you want to make Him double over with helpless hilarity....tell Him His plans...

 

[TheBarrd]

A bunch of sinners, gathered on the internet, in a Christian forum...

Sitting around arguing about the final fate of "the wicked".

Just think about that for a couple of seconds. Think about that "great cloud of witnesses" watching.

Just imagine what a show we are for them....

 

[TheBarrd]

Oh, I beg your pardon, Lady Barrd. It's like I never even bothered to look at the gender symbol next to your avatar this whole time, and just immediately assumed you were male simply because of the name that sounds like "bard" (which is what a singer of male gender in so much fantasy fiction is called, right?). My apologies.

Actually I took my name from my Welsh grandmother, who was a story teller, herself. It is my "pen name".
While most of the bards you read about in those fantasy fiction tales you are talking about are male, there are also female bards as well.

In any case, I am quite definitely female.

 

[brixken7]

*peeking around the door*

So, have you guys reached a general consensus yet? Figured God out, yet?

I'm reminded of an old saying"

If you want to make God laugh, tell Him your plans.

To this I would add,

If you want to make Him double over with helpless hilarity....tell Him His plans...

............................

....and your point?

 

[Der Alte]

"I notice how you totally ignored the definitions of the Hebrew words for footstool that I posted, which I am re-posting here."
--Der Alter

Repeating this because you continue to ignore the bulk of my posts.

You cannot use definitions for "footstool" from Strong's Concordance or Young's Concordance because they only give a LITERAL meaning. The term "footstool" most often has a figurative meaning, as a colloquialism, metaphor, or idiom, so you cannot find its definition in a concordance of the Bible. In fact, I personally never found even a Bible dictionary that defined it -- even tried to define it.

Who made you the expert in Hebrew? Can you tell me the meaning of this?
דברי חכמים בנחת נשׁמעים מזעקת מושׁל בכסילים׃

I did not quote from Young's because that is a Greek Concordance. I quoted from Brown, Driver, Briggs [BDB] lexicon of Old Testament Greek. One of, if not, the most highly renowned Hebrew lexicons available
And you are wrong because had you bothered to read there were figurative meanings listed but not dwelling or temple. If a Bible dictionary or lexicon does not translate "footstool" as "dwelling" or "temple" that is because the only place it exists is in your mind.

God has hidden it quite well. So the answer is:

You have to focus on how the word is repeatedly used in the Bible.

That is sometimes the best way to find the true definition of a Greek word or term since the so-called Greek experts don't always agree. So, what is YOUR definition of the term "footstool"?

Haven't heard that yet.

I don't make up my own definitions! I gave you the ONLY credible definitions when I quoted BDB

We know the term "feet" means "one's person.
So logically where you place you feet -- on a footstool -- is where you live. It's your "dwelling place"!

Total nonsense! The word "feet' is used figuratively in the OT but not for person! It is a euphemism for male reproductive organs.

Back in ancient Israel, God chose to dwell in the tabernacle (or temple) in Zion, He "desired it for his habitation" (Psalm 132:13; KJV), "as His dwelling place" (same verse, Concordant version). Thus we read...

"We will go into his tabernacle: we will worship at His footstool" (verse 7), meaning His dwelling place.

You have no, zero, none scriptural or lexical evidence for this conclusion.

That's true. But this Footstool Prophecy does eventually include everyone, which is why God repeats this prophecy throughout the Bible over and over. Now, we Christians were at one time 'enemies' of Christ, but we are now the temple of God (II Corinthians 6:16); we are where God dwells (same verse). God's temple on this earth was His footstool (Isaiah 66:1) and now His people, on this earth, are His "footstool" (Matthew 5:35; Acts 7:49).

Repeating the same nonsense over and over does not make it true. Temple is not footstool and footstool is not temple or dwelling place.

Likewise, the world with its billions of inhabitants, is counted as Christ enemy (James 4:4), but they too will become Christ's dwelling place, His footstool, when God pours out His holy spirit upon "all flesh" (Joel 2:28) at the Great White Throne judgment!

Repetitious nonsense.Dwelling place is not footstool. Here is every NT verse which refers to footstool. None of them can be interpreted as meaning dwelling or temple.

Mat_5:35 Nor by the earth; for it is his footstool: neither by Jerusalem; for it is the city of the great King.

Mat_22:44 The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand, till I make thine enemies thy footstool?

Mar_12:36 For David himself said by the Holy Ghost, The LORD said to my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand, till I make thine enemies thy footstool.

Luk_20:43 Till I make thine enemies thy footstool.

Act_2:35 Until I make thy foes thy footstool.

Act_7:49 Heaven is my throne, and earth is my footstool: what house will ye build me? saith the Lord: or what is the place of my rest?

Heb_1:13 But to which of the angels said he at any time, Sit on my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool?

Heb_10:13 From henceforth expecting till his enemies be made his footstool.

Jas_2:3 And ye have respect to him that weareth the gay clothing, and say unto him, Sit thou here in a good place; and say to the poor, Stand thou there, or sit here under my footstool:​

The definitions of the 2 words translated footstool in the NT.

πούς pous
Thayer Definition:
1) a foot, both of men or beast
1a) often in the orient, one put his foot on vanquished
1b) of disciples listening to their teacher’s instruction are said to be at his feet

υποποδιον hupopodion
Thayer Definition:
1) a footstool
1a) to make one a footstool of one’s feet, i.e. to subject, to reduce under one’s power
1b) metaphorically taken from the practice of conquerors who placed their feet on the necks of their conquered enemies
Part of Speech: noun neuter
A Related Word by Thayer’s/Strong’s Number: from a compound of G5259 and G4228​

Note the metaphorical meaning in 1b.

 

[TheBarrd]

............................

....and your point?

My point, Brix, is what I've been saying all along.
We can argue this stuff out till our fingers fall off from typing.
We might even come to some kind of agreement...although I'm not holding my breath.
When the great and terrible day of the Lord gets here...and it will, eventually..God is going to do whatever it is that He has planned to do...

Whatever that is, I am sure that it will be right and just.

And I'd be willing to bet my last Jesus fish bumper sticker that it will be something that none of us ever even imagined...

My point is that, instead of arguing about something we cannot possibly know...we ought to simply trust in God.

 

[brixken7]

[quote=TheBarrd;67396817]My point, Brix, is what I've been saying all along.
We can argue this stuff out till our fingers fall off from typing.
We might even come to some kind of agreement...although I'm not holding my breath.
When the great and terrible day of the Lord gets here...and it will, eventually..God is going to do whatever it is that He has planned to do...

Whatever that is, I am sure that it will be right and just.

And I'd be willing to bet my last Jesus fish bumper sticker that it will be something that none of us ever even imagined...

My point is that, instead of arguing about something we cannot possibly know...we ought to simply trust in God.[/quote]
.............................................

Mmm. Why do you feel the ultimate fate of billions of unsaved men, women, and children is something "we cannot possibly know"?

And if that is the way you truly feel, then why do you devote so much time to this thread?

 

[Hillsage]

Thank you, Hillsage.
Darned if you haven't got me nearly convinced that Universalism might be the Lord's "final answer".

I'm just putting ideas in your head, but it is the Spirit of truth which can make them revelation truth in your heart. But the only way for us to receive truth from the Spirit, we must hang on loosely to the lies we presently believe. But the religious spirit forces most to cling so tightly to their lies the Spirit is quenched.

1TH 5:19 Quench not the Spirit.

Therefore, I have a new signature line.

 

[TheBarrd]

[quote=TheBarrd;67396817]My point, Brix, is what I've been saying all along.
We can argue this stuff out till our fingers fall off from typing.
We might even come to some kind of agreement...although I'm not holding my breath.
When the great and terrible day of the Lord gets here...and it will, eventually..God is going to do whatever it is that He has planned to do...

Whatever that is, I am sure that it will be right and just.

And I'd be willing to bet my last Jesus fish bumper sticker that it will be something that none of us ever even imagined...

My point is that, instead of arguing about something we cannot possibly know...we ought to simply trust in God.

.............................................

Mmm. Why do you feel the ultimate fate of billions of unsaved men, women, and children is something "we cannot possibly know"?


And if that is the way you truly feel, then why do you devote so much time to this thread?

[/QUOTE]

As to the first point, it seems ludicrous to me that a bunch of sinners sits here, day after day, debating the fate of sinners.
Should we not be praying that He will have mercy on us all?

As to the second, the answer is simple.
I'm bored...

 

[brixken7]

"Mmm. Why do you feel the ultimate fate of billions of unsaved men, women, and children is something "we cannot possibly know"? And if that is the way you truly feel, then why do you devote so much time to this thread?"
-- brixken7
.................

"As to the first point, it seems ludicrous to me that a bunch of sinners sits here, day after day, debating the fate of sinners.
Should we not be praying that He will have mercy on us all?
As to the second, the answer is simple.
I'm bored..."
-- TheBarrd
.................

As to your question, "Should we not be praying that (God) will have mercy on us all?" -- the answer is NO. Definitely NOT. That's an insult to the character of God. He already says in His Word that He delights in mercy (Micah 7:18)!

Do you know anyone that does that?
God says He does!
Do you believe Him?

He does not retain His anger (Micah 7:18; Psalm 103:9; Isaiah 57:16) and His mercy does not cease with one's death, but it continues "for the eon(s)" (Psalm 136; Concordant version). "He is kind unto the unthankful and to the evil" (Luke 6:35).

"For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that He might have mercy upon all" (Romans 11:32). Both Jews and Gentiles.

"The Lord is good to all, and His tender mercies are over all His works" (Psalm 145:9).

Thus, we read that "All thy works shall praise thee, O Lord; and thy saints shall bless thee" (verse 10)!