Universal reconciliation

[brixken7]

Yeah...
Well, you guys have fun arguing about it.
Me, I think I'll just wait for God.

.............................................................


"Prove all things"
(I Thessalonians 5:21).

 

[Timothew]

The bottom line is this:
At the end of the day, God is gonna do it His way.
We can sit here and debate about it, till the last trump sounds...
Eternal torment?
Annihilation?
Temporary punishment?
Universal salvation for all?

And maybe we might even manage to come to an agreement...

But in the end what we think about it isn't gonna matter a hill of beans.
God is gonna do whatever He has already decided to do...and it'll be right and perfect, even if it is something we never even thought of.
I promise....

It doesn't seem that difficult to figure out, the Bible says that the wicked shall be destroyed. From that I know that the wicked shall be destroyed.

 

[brixken7]

It doesn't seem that difficult to figure out, the Bible says that the wicked shall be destroyed. From that I know that the wicked shall be destroyed.

.....................

It's not that simple.The Bible says "He destroys" (both) "the PERFECT and the WICKED."
(Job 9:22)

"Error, like straw on the surface will flow;
he that would find the truth must dive below."

You must "search" (Proverbs 25:2).

 

[Timothew]

.....................

It's not that simple.The Bible says "He destroys" (both) "the PERFECT and the WICKED."
(Job 9:22)

"Error, like straw on the surface will flow;
he that would find the truth must dive below."

You must "search" (Proverbs 25:2).

Job was speaking from his despair. God goes on to prove that he doesn't destroy the righteous along with the wicked.

Here is the account of Abraham in Genesis (ESV)

So the men turned from there and went toward Sodom, but Abraham still stood before the LORD. Then Abraham drew near and said, “Will you indeed sweep away the righteous with the wicked? Suppose there are fifty righteous within the city. Will you then sweep away the place and not spare it for the fifty righteous who are in it? Far be it from you to do such a thing, to put the righteous to death with the wicked, so that the righteous fare as the wicked! Far be that from you! Shall not the Judge of all the earth do what is just?”​

It is easy to understand that the wicked are destroyed and those who put their faith in God will inherit eternal life. It is only difficult if someone wants to find an objection to this.

 

[TheBarrd]

Forgive me, but it seems to me that, when I decided that I would follow Him, it was understood that I would trust Him. He is completely in charge of the situation, and I completely trust that whatever His "final disposition" will be, it will be right and perfect. I suspect that it will be something that we have not yet even imagined.
Meantime, all we can really do is speculate. What lies beyond the veil has not been revealed to us, and that's just the way that it is...

I know in Whom I have believed...

 

[Hillsage]

Timothew

Job was speaking from his despair. God goes on to prove that he doesn't destroy the righteous along with the wicked.

Just exactly what was God going to do...had not Abraham intervened? Did not God allow many innocent Israelites to die in the battle for Ai, after loosing no one in the battle of Jericho, just because of the sin of one man...Achan?

And, as I've said before; Since becoming a 'new man' in Christ my old man was crucified and is dead, or might I even say...destroyed?

JUD 1:5 I will therefore put you in remembrance, though ye once knew this, how that the Lord, having saved the people out of the land of Egypt, afterward destroyed them that believed not.

According to your POV, will those in the verse above, not be in any resurrection or judgment, because they were already "destroyed"?

I think there's more to be learned concerning this whole subject...obviously. And in the end UR works best for me.

 

[brixken7]

"It is easy to understand that the wicked are destroyed and those who put their faith in God will inherit eternal life." -- Timothew
...................................

"Those who put THEIR FAITH in God" are saved?

No, actually salvation is a matter of...
God giving us faith (Ephesians 2:8)[FONT=&quot]

[FONT=&quot]God giving us righteousness. (Isaiah 54:17; Romans 5:17; Philippians 3:9)[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]God granting us repentance. (Acts 11:18; Romans 2:4; II Timothy 2:25)[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]God drawing us to Christ. (John 6:44)[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]God granting us belief in Christ. (Acts 13:48;18:27; Philippians 1:29)[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]God sealing us with His spirit. (Ephesians 1:13)[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]God putting us in His church. (Acts 2:47)[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]God working in us. (Isaiah 26:12; Philippians 1:6; 2:13; Hebrews 13:21)[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]God keeping us saved. (Psalm 37:23-24; Proverbs 2:8; II Thessalonians 3:3; I Peter 1:5; Jude 24)[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Of God saving us, through His grace and mercy. (II Timothy 1:9; Titus 3:5)[/FONT]
[/FONT][FONT=&quot]

[/FONT]

 

[SarahsKnight]

Forgive me, but it seems to me that, when I decided that I would follow Him, it was understood that I would trust Him. He is completely in charge of the situation, and I completely trust that whatever His "final disposition" will be, it will be right and perfect. I suspect that it will be something that we have not yet even imagined.
Meantime, all we can really do is speculate. What lies beyond the veil has not been revealed to us, and that's just the way that it is...

I know in Whom I have believed...

In general I agree with you, Barrd. Perhaps we should just try to trust, and let everything fall into place.

But unfortunately I have seen for myself the damage caused by the eternal Dante's Inferno torment doctrine that has prevailed for so long, so I forget what you have perhaps wisely put forth here as advice and I become zealous to prove that God is "not a torturer". It depends on the individual's circumstances, really, whether they are inclined to care so much about certain theologies floating around about the Lord. ... Which I suppose is the basic reason right there why I am open to universal reconcilation even if I don't personally agree with it, as it would certainly explain the general confusion over God's word right now which has often resulted in much evil done in the past throughout the world, ending in our being revealed something grand for our own good and God's truest glory in the end, if, that is, we can take to heart that His glory and will is to have all men saved and bow before Him willingly.

 

[TheBarrd]

In general I agree with you, Barrd. Perhaps we should just try to trust, and let everything fall into place.

But unfortunately I have seen for myself the damage caused by the eternal Dante's Inferno torment doctrine that has prevailed for so long, so I forget what you have perhaps wisely put forth here as advice and I become zealous to prove that God is "not a torturer". It depends on the individual's circumstances, really, whether they are inclined to care so much about certain theologies floating around about the Lord. ... Which I suppose is the basic reason right there why I am open to universal reconcilation even if I don't personally agree with it, as it would certainly explain the general confusion over God's word right now which has often resulted in much evil done in the past throughout the world, ending in our being revealed something grand for our own good and God's truest glory in the end, if, that is, we can take to heart that His glory and will is to have all men saved and bow before Him willingly.

I do see your point...there are far to many dealers in "fire insurance"...trying to terrify people into church. Poor, gullible fools who think that as long as they drop their money in the plate, they are safe from "the wrath of a righteous God", and never hearing about the Lord who died for them while they were yet sinners...never experiencing fellowship with the Lord of Love. You are right, of course, that doctrine has not truly led anyone into faith in the Prince of Peace, only caused fear and suffering.
Yes, it is a very sad situation...still, I feel that the very best solution is to teach people to simply trust in Him. He loves us so much that He left His glory in Heaven to come to earth in a human body...(talk about slumming)...He walked as a Man among men for three years, teaching us how to walk in love...and then He went to the cross for us. Surely He has more than earned our trust, and our love, not to mention our worship...all of which He was entitled to from the beginning. Whatever He chooses as our final destiny will be right and perfect.

1Co_2:9 But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him.

 

[Timothew]

"It is easy to understand that the wicked are destroyed and those who put their faith in God will inherit eternal life." -- Timothew
...................................

"Those who put THEIR FAITH in God" are saved?

No, actually salvation is a matter of...
God giving us faith (Ephesians 2:8)[FONT=&quot]

[FONT=&quot]God giving us righteousness. (Isaiah 54:17; Romans 5:17; Philippians 3:9)[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]God granting us repentance. (Acts 11:18; Romans 2:4; II Timothy 2:25)[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]God drawing us to Christ. (John 6:44)[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]God granting us belief in Christ. (Acts 13:48;18:27; Philippians 1:29)[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]God sealing us with His spirit. (Ephesians 1:13)[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]God putting us in His church. (Acts 2:47)[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]God working in us. (Isaiah 26:12; Philippians 1:6; 2:13; Hebrews 13:21)[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]God keeping us saved. (Psalm 37:23-24; Proverbs 2:8; II Thessalonians 3:3; I Peter 1:5; Jude 24)[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Of God saving us, through His grace and mercy. (II Timothy 1:9; Titus 3:5)[/FONT]
[/FONT][FONT=&quot]

[/FONT]

That is what "putting your faith in God" consists of. The point is that God's people will inherit eternal life, and those who reject God will not inherit eternal life. Since they do not have eternal life, they will perish. John 3:16

 

[Timothew]

Just exactly what was God going to do...had not Abraham intervened? Did not God allow many innocent Israelites to die in the battle for Ai, after loosing no one in the battle of Jericho, just because of the sin of one man...Achan?

And, as I've said before; Since becoming a 'new man' in Christ my old man was crucified and is dead, or might I even say...destroyed?

JUD 1:5 I will therefore put you in remembrance, though ye once knew this, how that the Lord, having saved the people out of the land of Egypt, afterward destroyed them that believed not.

According to your POV, will those in the verse above, not be in any resurrection or judgment, because they were already "destroyed"?

No. Remember when Jesus said that the dead will be resurrected? The righteous dead will be resurrected to life, and the unrighteous will be resurrected to judgment. That is when the wicked will be completely destroyed. Does this help clear things up? We can trust God to know who the wicked are and who are not wicked. When Abraham asked "will not the Judge of all the earth do right?" The answer is "Yes, God will do right." There weren't any righteous people in Sodom. (Except perhaps Lot, who was being spared all along)

 

[Hillsage]

No. Remember when Jesus said that the dead will be resurrected? The righteous dead will be resurrected to life, and the unrighteous will be resurrected to judgment. That is when the wicked will be completely destroyed. Does this help clear things up?

"Completely destroyed"???? Now where does that 'theological' term come from? But I'll go will it, I'm not completely destroyed yet either. We all, as Christians, will still go through the judgment of fire...just like the believer in 1Cor 3:15. This is consistent principle of God IMO, for "When His judgments are in the earth the inhabitants of the world will learn righteousness." Isa 26:9 and His final judgments will produce final righteousness for all...to the glory of God. IMO.

We can trust God to know who the wicked are and who are not wicked.

Yes we can, and we can be assured that He will 'consume the wicked' for our "God is a consuming fire". And when the wickedness is consumed He will justify them with His imputed righteousness, even as He justified us while we were yet sinners. IMO.

When Abraham asked "will not the Judge of all the earth do right?" The answer is "Yes, God will do right." There weren't any righteous people in Sodom. (Except perhaps Lot, who was being spared all along)

Then he would have been inconsistent in releasing unrighteous people with Lot. And if his wife was righteous 'looking back' seems a pretty trite sin to be killed for. Especially when "Christians" of today get to live with many worse sins to their discredit...IMO. All those judgments, harsh though they seem only go to show God's displeasure with sin...not sinners. And just like he saved us when we didn't deserve it, so shall He save them who didn't deserve it either...IMO.

I'll still stick with the God whose plan for ALL was FOR ALL, just not all in 'this age'. Many are those who will not be Christ's here, but they will be "Christ's at His coming."

 

[Timothew]

"Completely destroyed"???? Now where does that 'theological' term come from? But I'll go will it, I'm not completely destroyed yet either. We all, as Christians, will still go through the judgment of fire...just like the believer in 1Cor 3:15. This is consistent principle of God IMO, for "When His judgments are in the earth the inhabitants of the world will learn righteousness." Isa 26:9 and His final judgments will produce final righteousness for all...to the glory of God. IMO.

Yes we can, and we can be assured that He will 'consume the wicked' for our "God is a consuming fire". And when the wickedness is consumed He will justify them with His imputed righteousness, even as He justified us while we were yet sinners. IMO.

Then he would have been inconsistent in releasing unrighteous people with Lot. And if his wife was righteous 'looking back' seems a pretty trite sin to be killed for. Especially when "Christians" of today get to live with many worse sins to their discredit...IMO. All those judgments, harsh though they seem only go to show God's displeasure with sin...not sinners. And just like he saved us when we didn't deserve it, so shall He save them who didn't deserve it either...IMO.

I'll still stick with the God whose plan for ALL was FOR ALL, just not all in 'this age'. Many are those who will not be Christ's here, but they will be "Christ's at His coming."

Don't you remember when Jesus said "On that day many will say to me, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?’ And then will I declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from me, you workers of lawlessness.’"
(Matthew 7:22-23 ESV)
When Christ returns, there will be some who will still have rejected him. He said so himself.

God knows who to save. God knows the heart of Lot's wife, it is not for us to decide. The point of the destruction of Sodom is that it shows what the coming judgment will bring to the wicked, just as Peter wrote in his second letter. (also Jude)

Concerning "complete destruction", why do you object to that?
"But transgressors shall be altogether destroyed;
the future of the wicked shall be cut off." Psalm 37:38
This complete destruction proves that the wicked will not be eternally tortured by God as the unstable claim, but it also proves that transgressors will be "altogether destroyed", not just partially destroyed.

I would like to believe with you that everyone will repent and avoid the coming destruction. The Lord does not wish that any would perish, and neither do I, but some people refuse to repent and the Bible says that they bring destruction on themselves. (2 Peter 3:9, 2 Peter 2:1)

 

[brixken7]

"Don't you remember when Jesus said "On that day many will say to me, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?’ And then will I declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from me, you workers of lawlessness.’"
(Matthew 7:22-23 ESV)
When Christ returns, there will be some who will still have rejected him. He said so himself." -- Timothew
.................

Actually, when Christ returns there will also be billions of people who never even heard of Him!
And countless insane people!
And millions of innocent children!
Are all of these people worthy of your so-called 'eternal' destruction?
What will happen to them?

"Concerning "complete destruction", why do you object to that?
"But transgressors shall be altogether destroyed;
the future of the wicked shall be cut off." Psalm 37:38
This complete destruction proves that the wicked will not be eternally tortured by God as the unstable claim, but it also proves that transgressors will be "altogether destroyed", not just partially destroyed." -- Timothew

Yes, the "wicked" will be completely destroyed as Peter indicates. But the scripture you gave is not saying that. It more accurately reads, "Yet transgressors, they will be exterminated together."

However, unless Christ comes soon, you and I will be completely destroyed also -- by the first death. God destroys EVERYONE -- either "twice" or "thrice" (Job 33:29; original Hebrew).

"I would like to believe with you that everyone will repent and avoid the coming destruction. The Lord does not wish that any would perish, and neither do I, but some people refuse to repent and the Bible says that they bring destruction on themselves. (2 Peter 3:9, 2 Peter 2:1)"
-- Timothew

God is able to humble everyone (Daniel 4:37).
And He is the One Who is ultimately responsible for people's repentance (Acts 11:18; Romans 2:4; II Timothy 2:25).

God will have mercy upon all (Romans 11:32; Psalm 145:9)! And save all (I Timothy 2:4)!

 

[brixken7]

"Don't you remember when Jesus said "On that day many will say to me, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?’ And then will I declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from me, you workers of lawlessness.’"
(Matthew 7:22-23 ESV)
When Christ returns, there will be some who will still have rejected him. He said so himself." -- Timothew
.................

Actually, when Christ returns there will also be billions of people who never even heard of Him!
And countless insane people!
And millions of innocent children!
Are all of these people worthy of your so-called 'eternal' destruction?
What do you think will happen to them?

"Concerning "complete destruction", why do you object to that?
"But transgressors shall be altogether destroyed;
the future of the wicked shall be cut off." Psalm 37:38
This complete destruction proves that the wicked will not be eternally tortured by God as the unstable claim, but it also proves that transgressors will be "altogether destroyed", not just partially destroyed." -- Timothew

Yes, the "wicked" will be completely destroyed as Peter indicates. But the scripture you gave is not saying that. It more accurately reads, "Yet transgressors, they will be exterminated together."

However, unless Christ comes soon, you and I will be completely destroyed also -- by the first death. God destroys EVERYONE -- either "twice" or "thrice" (Job 33:29; original Hebrew).

"I would like to believe with you that everyone will repent and avoid the coming destruction. The Lord does not wish that any would perish, and neither do I, but some people refuse to repent and the Bible says that they bring destruction on themselves. (2 Peter 3:9, 2 Peter 2:1)"
-- Timothew

God is able to humble everyone (Daniel 4:37).
And He is the One Who is ultimately responsible for people's repentance (Acts 11:18; Romans 2:4; II Timothy 2:25).

God will have mercy upon all (Romans 11:32; Psalm 145:9)! And save all (I Timothy 2:4)!

 

[SarahsKnight]

Actually, when Christ returns there will also be billions of people who never even heard of Him!
And countless insane people!
And millions of innocent children!
Are all of these people worthy of your so-called 'eternal' destruction?
What will happen to them?

Easy there, Brixken. Look at it this way; at least he's not promoting their eternal torture. Eternal destruction is still far more merciful.

 

[brixken7]

Easy there, Brixken. Look at it this way; at least he's not promoting their eternal torture. Eternal destruction is still far more merciful.

....................................

This is true, of course.
But it's not what you want for your loved ones, is it.
More importantly, it's not biblical.

 

[SarahsKnight]

No, of course it isn't something I would want for them. Or anyone.

 

[TheBarrd]

Who truly believes that a merciful God...the God Who assures us that He is love...that this God will send millions of innocent men, women, and children to be tortured for eternity, or to eternal annihilation, just for being born in the wrong place?
On the other hand, will they share in the rewards earned by those who have faithfully followed Christ...some through horrible persecution...even to their own martyrdom?
And what of people who lived truly wicked lives...people who have caused untold pain and suffering? Does not justice demand some sort of punishment for them?
I do not know how He will handle it...however, I am completely convinced that He will have an elegant, and totally fair and right solution, and that everyone will be happy...there will be no tears, or any regrets...

That is why I say these kind of debates are a total waste of time.
Rather, we ought to simply trust Him...He is far more able to know what is right and just than we are...

 

[brixken7]

Who truly believes that a merciful God...the God Who assures us that He is love...that this God will send millions of innocent men, women, and children to be tortured for eternity, or to eternal annihilation, just for being born in the wrong place?
On the other hand, will they share in the rewards earned by those who have faithfully followed Christ...some through horrible persecution...even to their own martyrdom?
And what of people who lived truly wicked lives...people who have caused untold pain and suffering? Does not justice demand some sort of punishment for them?
I do not know how He will handle it...however, I am completely convinced that He will have an elegant, and totally fair and right solution, and that everyone will be happy...there will be no tears, or any regrets...

That is why I say these kind of debates are a total waste of time.
Rather, we ought to simply trust Him...He is far more able to know what is right and just than we are...

.......................................

"Rather, we ought to simply trust Him" -- TheBarrd

That's right...and that also means trusting in what He actually says in His Word. As a consequence, we don't have to wonder much as to what God will do with a very wicked person. We have as an example the conversion of Saul who became the apostle Paul -- who described himself as the "chief" of sinners, or some such thing. Look at all the suffering God put him through! There is even indication that he was killed at least once by stoning. God will indeed repay everyone "according to their works." But this has absolutely nothing to do with their ultimate salvation, which is not based upon THEIR works -- but God's (lest any man boast).