UNDER THE LAW!

[HARK!]

The law of Moses, Torah or Talmud?

Acts 15:5
Then some of the believers who belonged to the party of the Pharisees stood up and said, “The Gentiles must be circumcised and required to keep the law of Moses.”

Are you a Pharisee?

Who were the Pharisees? These were the same guys who attacked Yahshua for allegedly breaking YHWH's law; because Yahshua didn't keep their Talmud.

They were blind; and you are letting them lead your argument? Really?

The law of Moses is the Law is YHWH, is the Torah.

Saying that the Talmud is the Torah, does not make it so.

 

[Dkh587]

But now apart from the law the righteousness of God has been made known, to which the Law and the Prophets testify. rom3:21

Apart from the oral law... the law in that verse is not talking about the law of Moses/God

 

[Dkh587]

The law of Moses; Torah or Talmud?

Acts 15:5
Then some of the believers who belonged to the party of the Pharisees stood up and said, “The Gentiles must be circumcised and required to keep the law of Moses.”

Acts 15:5 is a different statement made by a different group of people, then the statement made in Acts 15:1.

Acts 15:1 is teaching salvation only if you adhere to Judaism(the oral law and all its requirements) First... it just says “certain men”. They most likely were not followers/believers of the Messiah.

Acts 15:5 is made by Pharisees who believe in the Messiah. Different group. They were teaching that Gentiles coming into the fold should be circumcised and obey the law of God... they weren’t arguing or making a statement regarding salvation...

that is why Peter spoke, and then James spoke.. they addressed the 2 different statements.

 

[HARK!]

Acts 15:9-11
He did not discriminate between us and them, for he purified their hearts by faith. 10 Now then, why do you try to test God by putting on the necks of Gentiles a yoke that neither we nor our ancestors have been able to bear? 11 No! We believe it is through the grace of our Lord Jesus that we are saved, just as they are.”

Paul spoke to the congregation on this matter when he wrote back to the Galatians on this subject.

16 having perceived that a man is not being justified by works of law, except alone through the faith of Christ Jesus, we also believe in Christ Jesus that we may be justified by the faith of Christ and not by works of law, seeing that by works of law shall no flesh at all be justified."


What law is this? Let's look at what Paul said in Romans:

(CLV) Ro 2:13
For not the listeners to law are just with God, but the doers of law shall be justified.


Now I don't believe that Paul had mental issues. Obviously "Works of Law" is something different than the Torah.

Paul kept the Torah:

(CLV) Ac 24:14
"Yet I am avowing this to you, that, according to the way which they are terming a sect, thus am I offering divine service to the hereditary God, believing all that is written, according to the law and in the prophets,

I don't see "Works of Law" mentioned in the Torah. I don't see it mentioned of it by Yahshua. Where is Paul getting this?

It is mentioned 1 time in Romans and 6 times in Galatians.

It is also mentioned in the Qumran Scrolls.

Q394 (4QMMTa) 4QHalakhic Letter
Dead Sea Scrolls Project: 4QMMT

Definition of halacha
: the body of Jewish law supplementing the scriptural law and forming especially the legal part of the Talmud
Definition of HALACHA

Paul on the Law: Galatians 2

 

[not under law]

Apart from the oral law... the law in that verse is not talking about the law of Moses/God

So that would apply here also:
Christ is the end of the law unto righteousness for everyone who believeth rom10:4

And here?
I do not set aside the grace of God, for if righteousness comes through the law Christ died in vain Gal2:21

And here?
not having a righteousness of my own that comes from the law, but that which is through faith in Christ – the righteousness that comes from God on the basis of faith Phill3:9

And here?
‘We who are Jews by birth and not sinful Gentiles 16 know that a person is not justified by the works of the law, but by faith in Jesus Christ. So we, too, have put our faith in Christ Jesus that we may be justified by faith in Christ and not by the works of the law, because by the works of the law no one will be justified/righteous. Gal2:15&16

 

[Der Alte]

You're posting a mistranslation. It's two different words.
God’s law νομονas
Christ’s law (εννομος)
I cover this chapter in depth here: Paul on the Law: 1 Corinthians 9

Wrong! They are NOT two different words. They are the same word with a different prefix.
The word for law in Greek is νομος/nomos . Nomos with prefix α which means no, not, none etc. i.e. ανομος ="without law." The other occurrence is εννομος /ennomos. It is the same word "nomos"/law with the prefix εν/en which means in, under, etc. ennomos means under the law.
Before trying to make definitive statements about Greek I suggest you consult a Greek grammar.
Herbert Weir Smyth, A Greek Grammar for Colleges, Part III: Formation of Words, COMPOUND WORDS

 

[Dkh587]

So that would apply here also:
Christ is the end of the law unto righteousness for everyone who believeth rom10:4

the law here refers to the Law of Moses/God. The Messiah is the GOAL of the Torah. The Torah teaches righteousness through faith

And here?
I do not set aside the grace of God, for if righteousness comes through the law Christ died in vain Gal2:21

this is talking about the oral law - Paul taught in Romans 2:13 that the doers of the Law of Moses will be declared righteous. He’s not contradicting himself.

And here?
not having a righteousness of my own that comes from the law, but that which is through faith in Christ – the righteousness that comes from God on the basis of faith Phill3:9

self righteousness comes through the oral law(Judaism). Paul exceeded far behind his peers in Judaism(Pharisee religion). He was blameless in their religion...

It’s a common error to think Paul isalways talking about “the law of Moses/God” when you see “the law”.

 

[not under law]

the law here refers to the Law of Moses/God. The Messiah is the GOAL of the Torah. The Torah teaches righteousness through faith



this is talking about the oral law - Paul taught in Romans 2:13 that the doers of the Law of Moses will be declared righteous. He’s not contradicting himself.



self righteousness comes through the oral law(Judaism). Paul exceeded far behind his peers in Judaism(Pharisee religion). He was blameless in their religion...

Bye

 

[Dkh587]

Bye

 

[not under law]

the law here refers to the Law of Moses/God. The Messiah is the GOAL of the Torah. The Torah teaches righteousness through faith



this is talking about the oral law - Paul taught in Romans 2:13 that the doers of the Law of Moses will be declared righteous. He’s not contradicting himself.



self righteousness comes through the oral law(Judaism). Paul exceeded far behind his peers in Judaism(Pharisee religion). He was blameless in their religion...

It’s a common error to think Paul isalways talking about “the law of Moses/God” when you see “the law”.

Sorry
Just one thing. Is the power of sin the oral law also?

The power of sin is the law 1Cor15:56

 

[Dkh587]

Sorry
Just one thing. Is the power of sin the oral law also?

The power of sin is the law 1Cor15:56

No. I didn’t say that everywhere that you see “the law” that it’s talking about the oral law...

 

[not under law]

All who sin apart from the law will also perish apart from the law, and all who sin under the law will be judged by the law. 13 For it is not those who hear the law who are righteous in God’s sight, but it is those who obey the law who will be declared righteous. 14 (Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature things required by the law, they are a law for themselves, even though they do not have the law. 15 They show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts sometimes accusing them and at other times even defending them.)
Context is a good thing, if you live under the law you must obey the law to be righteous under it-obviously. But as Paul repeatedly makes clear, you cannot be righteous by obeying the law for you would have to fully obey it for this to happen. He also makes clear the believer is not under law
Paul also states in the passage that Gentiles who do not have the law, can by nature follow the requirements of the law as it in their hearts. So, could you by nature follow Torah without knowing the law?

 

[HARK!]

Christ is the end of the law unto righteousness for everyone who believeth rom10:4

Excerpt: Paul on the Law: Romans Chapter 10

4 For Christ is the consummation of law for righteousness to everyone who is believing.

------------------------------------------------
Let's pause here.

Despite that we have gone over so far in The Book of Romans; and despite thus far, Paul has consistently said that we keep the Torah; this verse is often used by those who are looking for a way to skirt around obedience to YHWH's law.

Here is just one example pointed out early on in the foundation of this letter:

(CLV) Ro 2:13
For not the listeners to law are just with God, but the doers of law shall be justified.


Let's look at this verse very carefully.

This translation uses the word "consummation," which means marriage. The CLV purports to be a word for word translation; but most other translations use the word "end"

However, I am not presenting an argumentum ad populum.



Here is how Strong defines G5056:

•end

•termination, the limit at which a thing ceases to be (always of the end of some act or state, but not of the end of a period of time)

•the end

•the last in any succession or series

•eternal

•that by which a thing is finished, its close, issue

•the end to which all things relate, the aim, purpose

•toll, custom (i.e. indirect tax on goods)

G5056 - telos - Strong's Greek Lexicon (KJV)


Now I'm by no means saying that Strong is the final authority on this matter; but the translation is relatively consistent.

This translation is also consistent with the context of Paul's letter to the Romans.

Context is key.

Paul laid this foundation in the opening of this letter:

(CLV) Ro 1:17
For in it God's righteousness is being revealed, out of faith for faith, according as it is written: "Now the just one by faith shall be living."

What is just?

Definition of just
2a : acting or being in conformity with what is morally upright or good : righteous
b : legally correct : lawful
Definition of JUST

So those of faith will be obedient to YHWH's law, through faith.


In the very next verse Paul laid this foundation in the opening of this letter:

(CLV) Ro 1:18
For God's indignation is being revealed from heaven on all the irreverence and injustice of men who are retaining the truth in injustice,

Retaining the truth in injustice? What does this mean? Let's read through Paul's letter to find out. I already mentioned, earlier in this series, that Paul has a round about way of getting to his point. He's now getting to his point.

Just four verses earlier, in Romans 9:31, Paul introduce a new legal term to our vocabulary:

The Law of Righteousness.

It sounds righteous; doesn't it?
It's NOT!

31 Yet Israel, pursuing a law of righteousness, into a law of righteousness does not outstrip." 32 Wherefore? Seeing that it is not out of faith, but as out of law works, they stumble on the stumbling stone, 33 according as it is written: Lo! I am laying in Zion a Stumbling Stone and a Snare Rock, And the one believing on Him shall not be disgraced."

Paul is trying to get us to understand that believing that working to obedience to the law as the means of salvation, is a stumbling stone.

Yahshua's name proclaims that it is YHWH saves you. YAH shua!

By believing that you can save yourself; you have elevated yourself to YHWH.

YHWH didn't nail his righteous law (Torah) to the torture stake. He nailed The Law of Righteousness to the torture stake. It is the end of The Law of Righteousness for those who are under The Law of Faith. They will be obedient to The Spirit's Law of Life, as it lead the to be obedient to YHWH's Law (Torah).

Paul went over this in Chapter 8.


Romans 10:4 in context:

For Messiah is the end of The Law of Righteousnes, for righteousness, to everyone who is believing in the righteousness of YHWH.

Follow Yahshua, as Yahshua followed Torah.

(CLV) Ro 2:13
For not the listeners to law are just with God, but the doers of law shall be justified.

 

[HARK!]

Wrong! They are NOT two different words. They are the same word with a different prefix.
The word for law in Greek is νομος/nomos . Nomos with prefix α which means no, not, none etc. i.e. ανομος ="without law." The other occurrence is εννομος /ennomos. It is the same word "nomos"/law with the prefix εν/en which means in, under, etc. ennomos means under the law.
Before trying to make definitive statements about Greek I suggest you consult a Greek grammar.
Herbert Weir Smyth, A Greek Grammar for Colleges, Part III: Formation of Words, COMPOUND WORDS

You're not telling me anything that I haven't already investigated.

Two different words, with two different meanings. That's why Paul chose two different words.

Like I said; I covered this here: Paul on the Law: 1 Corinthians 9

P.S. En means in, most of the time; but never under.

 

[not under law]

Excerpt: Paul on the Law: Romans Chapter 10

4 For Christ is the consummation of law for righteousness to everyone who is believing.

------------------------------------------------
Let's pause here.

Despite that we have gone over so far in The Book of Romans; and despite thus far, Paul has consistently said that we keep the Torah; this verse is often used by those who are looking for a way to skirt around obedience to YHWH's law.

Here is just one example pointed out early on in the foundation of this letter:

(CLV) Ro 2:13
For not the listeners to law are just with God, but the doers of law shall be justified.


Let's look at this verse very carefully.

This translation uses the word "consummation," which means marriage. The CLV purports to be a word for word translation; but most other translations use the word "end"

However, I am not presenting an argumentum ad populum.



Here is how Strong defines G5056:

•end

•termination, the limit at which a thing ceases to be (always of the end of some act or state, but not of the end of a period of time)

•the end

•the last in any succession or series

•eternal

•that by which a thing is finished, its close, issue

•the end to which all things relate, the aim, purpose

•toll, custom (i.e. indirect tax on goods)

G5056 - telos - Strong's Greek Lexicon (KJV)


Now I'm by no means saying that Strong is the final authority on this matter; but the translation is relatively consistent.

This translation is also consistent with the context of Paul's letter to the Romans.

Context is key.

Paul laid this foundation in the opening of this letter:

(CLV) Ro 1:17
For in it God's righteousness is being revealed, out of faith for faith, according as it is written: "Now the just one by faith shall be living."

What is just?

Definition of just
2a : acting or being in conformity with what is morally upright or good : righteous
b : legally correct : lawful
Definition of JUST

So those of faith will be obedient to YHWH's law, through faith.


In the very next verse Paul laid this foundation in the opening of this letter:

(CLV) Ro 1:18
For God's indignation is being revealed from heaven on all the irreverence and injustice of men who are retaining the truth in injustice,

Retaining the truth in injustice? What does this mean? Let's read through Paul's letter to find out. I already mentioned, earlier in this series, that Paul has a round about way of getting to his point. He's now getting to his point.

Just four verses earlier, in Romans 9:31, Paul introduce a new legal term to our vocabulary:

The Law of Righteousness.

It sounds righteous; doesn't it?
It's NOT!

31 Yet Israel, pursuing a law of righteousness, into a law of righteousness does not outstrip." 32 Wherefore? Seeing that it is not out of faith, but as out of law works, they stumble on the stumbling stone, 33 according as it is written: Lo! I am laying in Zion a Stumbling Stone and a Snare Rock, And the one believing on Him shall not be disgraced."

Paul is trying to get us to understand that believing that working to obedience to the law as the means of salvation, is a stumbling stone.

Yahshua's name proclaims that it is YHWH saves you. YAH shua!

By believing that you can save yourself; you have elevated yourself to YHWH.

YHWH didn't nail his righteous law (Torah) to the torture stake. He nailed The Law of Righteousness to the torture stake. It is the end of The Law of Righteousness for those who are under The Law of Faith. They will be obedient to The Spirit's Law of Life, as it lead the to be obedient to YHWH's Law (Torah).

Paul went over this in Chapter 8.


Romans 10:4 in context:

For Messiah is the end of The Law of Righteousnes, for righteousness, to everyone who is believing in the righteousness of YHWH.

Follow Yahshua, as Yahshua followed Torah.

(CLV) Ro 2:13
For not the listeners to law are just with God, but the doers of law shall be justified.

You would have to say, that if gentiles are required to follow Torah, Christ's disciples/the early church gave gentiles a licence to sin. Acts15:19 could not avoid that being true. God's laws are not arbitrary, you cannot pick and choose which ones you follow and which ones you don't. Acts15:19 was not the reality anyway, years later, the Jerusalem church confirmed to Paul they were still not requiring Gentiles to follow any more laws than was asked in Acts ch15(Acts21:25) So the NT church must have given gentiles a licence to sin their whole lives if some peoples views are correct

 

[Dkh587]

All who sin apart from the law will also perish apart from the law, and all who sin under the law will be judged by the law. 13 For it is not those who hear the law who are righteous in God’s sight, but it is those who obey the law who will be declared righteous. 14 (Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature things required by the law, they are a law for themselves, even though they do not have the law. 15 They show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts sometimes accusing them and at other times even defending them.)
Context is a good thing, if you live under the law you must obey the law to be righteous under it-obviously. But as Paul repeatedly makes clear, you cannot be righteous by obeying the law for you would have to fully obey it for this to happen. He also makes clear the believer is not under law
Paul also states in the passage that Gentiles who do not have the law, can by nature follow the requirements of the law as it in their hearts. So, could you by nature follow Torah without knowing the law?

No. Obviously, humans have some sort of awareness of right and wrong, but it at a very basic level - for example, most Gentiles eat pork - there is no conviction that what they’re doing is abominable to God.

You could compare their basic conscious, and awareness that there is some sort of “right and wrong” principle in the universe it to a fuzzy radio.

They don’t have the full signal, but a tiny bit is coming through here and there.

obviously, murdering is wrong, but there is more to the law of God than murdering. Paul said that the Gentiles without the law of Moses perish... it doesn’t matter that they might have an inkling of morality.

the law of God/Moses is full of things that you have to learn by reading it... Gentiles don’t know 90% of it.. most Christians don’t even know it...

 

[not under law]

No. Obviously, humans have some sort of awareness of right and wrong, but it at a very basic level - for example, most Gentiles eat pork - there is no conviction that what they’re doing is abominable to God.

You could compare their basic conscious, and awareness that there is some sort of “right and wrong” principle in the universe it to a fuzzy radio.

They don’t have the full signal, but a tiny bit is coming through here and there.

obviously, murdering is wrong, but there is more to the law of God than murdering. Paul said that the Gentiles without the law of Moses perish... it doesn’t matter that they might have an inkling of morality.

Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature things required by the law, they are a law for themselves, even though they do not have the law. 15 They show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts,

 

[HARK!]

You would have to say, that if gentiles are required to follow Torah, Christ's disciples/the early church gave gentiles a licence to sin. Acts15:19 could not avoid that being true. God's laws are not arbitrary, you cannot pick and choose which ones you follow and which ones you don't. Acts15:19 was not the reality anyway, years later, the Jerusalem church confirmed to Paul they were still not requiring Gentiles to follow any more laws than was asked in Acts ch15(Acts21:25) So the NT church must have given gentiles a licence to sin their whole lives if some peoples views are correct

Paul was not giving those new to the faith, a "license to sin" anymore than YHWH was giving Abraham a "license to sin" As we mature in our faith we learn obedience which perfects our faith. Abraham was circumcised many years after coming to faith; yet Paul circumcised Timothy, shortly after his coming to faith.

 

[Dkh587]

Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature things required by the law, they are a law for themselves, even though they do not have the law. 15 They show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts,

I’ve never seen a pagan keep the 7th day holy.. have you? Ever had one tell you “I have this urge in my head to not work on the 7th day of the week, which btw starts at Friday on sunset. I’m not sure where this is coming from tho???”

Gentiles perish because they don’t have the law.

 

[not under law]

Paul was not giving those new to the faith, a "license to sin" anymore than YHWH was giving Abraham a "license to sin" As we mature in our faith we learn obedience which perfects our faith. Abraham was circumcised many years after coming to faith; yet Paul circumcised Timothy, shortly after his coming to faith.

You cannot change the facts I am afraid