Tyndale and defying the Pope

[Skybringr]

Tyndale..

You know, Joan of Arc was burned at the stake.

Compare and contrast Joan, a definitively Catholic saint, to Tyndale.

 

[Rick Otto]

Tyndale..

You know, Joan of Arc was burned at the stake.

Compare and contrast Joan, a definitively Catholic saint, to Tyndale.

Joan had a vision & got involved in factioned regional politics within the established authority structure.
"Twenty-five years after her execution, an inquisitorial court authorized by Pope Callixtus III examined the trial, pronounced her innocent, and declared her a martyr." -Wiki
Tyndale's confrontation with the infallible Roman hierarchy was more timeless & global, if not cosmic.

 

[Rhamiel]

Joan had a vision & got involved in regional politics within the established authority structure.
"Twenty-five years after her execution, an inquisitorial court authorized by Pope Callixtus III examined the trial, pronounced her innocent, and declared her a martyr." -Wiki
Tyndale's confrontation with the infallible Roman hierarchy was more timeless & global, if not cosmic.

confrontation with Roman hierarchy?

you must be confused, it was the King of England who executed Tyndale

as others have clearly shown, there have been translations of Scripture into the vernacular that predate Tyndale, so it is not as "cosmic" as you make it out to seem

someone made a bad translation, the Church wanted to protect people from reading a corrupted version of scripture, and then the King of England killed a person who was very divisive and was harming the unity of his state

 

[Rick Otto]

I voted that Tyndale did the right thing.

I am a protestant now but I was raised in a Catholic church. I really hate these types of discussions because no one back then had clean hands and there's absolutely nothing good that can come from digging up the past with such horrible stories. I'm not going to to participate in this disccuss after this post but I think the OP really needs to be fair about this. He should read this site and want to talk about some of the atrocities they speak about too if he wants to be honest.
Biblical Evidence for Catholicism: The Protestant Inquisition: "Reformation" Intolerance and Persecution

Otherwise I suggest people forget and forgive all of these things in our past and work on unity instead of strife.

OK, except I vote we work on truth & let unity fall where it may,

 

[Rick Otto]

confrontation with Roman hierarchy?

you must be confused, it was the King of England who executed Tyndale

as others have clearly shown, there have been translations of Scripture into the vernacular that predate Tyndale, so it is not as "cosmic" as you make it out to seem

someone made a bad translation, the Church wanted to protect people from reading a corrupted version of scripture, and then the King of England killed a person who was very divisive and was harming the unity of his state

I understand confusion of church & state authority although the modus operandi & its origin is identical:
"Tyndale's translation was the first English Bible to draw directly from Hebrew and Greek texts, the first English one to take advantage of the printing press, and first of the new English Bibles of the Reformation. It was taken to be a direct challenge to the hegemony of both the Roman Catholic Church and English Laws to maintain church rulings. In 1530, Tyndale also wrote The Practyse of Prelates, opposing Henry VIII's divorce on the grounds that it contravened Scripture." -Wiki

Religious &/or political, tyranny is tyranny, and secular or religious, hierarchies are not brotherhoods.

 

[Skybringr]

I'm just going to make this simple and factual:

The Anglican communion- what is it doing right now? What does it stand for politically and ethically?
The Catholic communion- what is it doing right now? What does it stand for politically and ethically?

Compare and contrast. Joan was a mighty martyr, martyred for all the right reasons. She was canonized right before the Reformation. One does not simply compare her and Tyndale.

 

[Rick Otto]

not simply
"Apparently, it's okay to talk all the crap in the world about Catholicism and the papacy,..."
It's OK with me because I hold them accountable.

 

[Skybringr]

not simply
"Apparently, it's okay to talk all the crap in the world about Catholicism and the papacy,..."
It's OK with me because I hold them accountable.

Or at all.

While I have no doubt Tyndale is in Heaven, it certainly isn't because he opposed the Church. Any man martyred for doing what they feel is righteous in light of Christ is a remarkable act- it doesn't necessarily mean they are, however, right.

 

[Rick Otto]

Or at all.

While I have no doubt Tyndale is in Heaven, it certainly isn't because he opposed the Church. Any man martyred for doing what they feel is righteous in light of Christ is a remarkable act- it doesn't necessarily mean they are, however, right.

I don't have to be "right".
I have to be "me".

 

[Skybringr]

I don't have to be "right".
I have to be "me".

Meh..

Jeremiah 17:9
The heart is perverse above all things, and unsearchable, who can know it?

Take notice to one of Luther's quotes, which entails that he knows in his heart the Church is wrong.

The irony is almost poetic, really, from the Catholic's standpoint.

Edit: Actually, it is very poetic now that I've marinated on it a bit. It orchestrates a great deal about man in general.

 

[Rick Otto]

Meh..

Jeremiah 17:9
The heart is perverse above all things, and unsearchable, who can know it?

Take notice to one of Luther's quotes, which entails that he knows in his heart the Church is wrong.

The irony is almost poetic, really, from the Catholic's standpoint.

I do. I took it (unknowingly) to heart in first grade parochial school catechism class. I could see (in my mind's eye) swastka armbands on the nuns & priests.
The catechism books showed a long -haired bearded man in white robes with kids running & screaming joyfully towards him. In contrast, all the priests & nuns wore black, showed a minimum if any hair, and all the kids FEARED them with good reason.
Perverse hearts were ruling the day.

 

[MarkRohfrietsch]

I don't have to be "right".
I have to be "me".

Rick, there is not an question; you are indeed you.

 

[MarkRohfrietsch]

I do. I took it (unknowingly) to heart in first grade parochial school catechism class. I could see (in my mind's eye) swastka armbands on the nuns & priests.
The catechism books showed a long -haired bearded man in white robes with kids running & screaming joyfully towards him. In contrast, all the priests & nuns wore black, showed a minimum if any hair, and all the kids FEARED them with good reason.
Perverse hearts were ruling the day.

While there are still "perverse hearts"; most of those seem today, to be outside the Chruch.

 

[Skybringr]

I do. I took it (unknowingly) to heart in first grade parochial school catechism class. I could see (in my mind's eye) swastka armbands on the nuns & priests.
The catechism books showed a long -haired bearded man in white robes with kids running & screaming joyfully towards him. In contrast, all the priests & nuns wore black, showed a minimum if any hair, and all the kids FEARED them with good reason.
Perverse hearts were ruling the day.

I can pretty much guarantee you that a thousand years ago, sure, no Christian would fret too much about the extermination of Jews. They would say that God willed it. You would have done the same.

It's an uncomfortable truth, but the truth nonetheless if we are going to go there on historical values.
You would shun them the same way the most fanatical atheist would shun religion collectively.

I don't really see your point. As far as Jesus wearing white and whatnot, these are traditional Western images- white is purity (it's not racist, fanatics made it racist), angels generally having wings is rooted in Greek concept, long hair is rooted in Roman divinity (ironically), not showing hair; well that's just an Abrahamic principle from Judaism to Islam as humility.

 

[Rick Otto]

While there are still "perverse hearts"; most of those seem today, to be outside the Chruch.

I wish I had the same perspective, but I find your & my definition of "the Church" at odds.

 

[Rick Otto]

QUOTE=Skybringr; I can pretty much guarantee you that a thousand years ago, sure, no Christian would fret too much about the extermination of Jews. They would say that God willed it. You would have done the same.

Not necessarily.

It's an uncomfortable truth, but the truth nonetheless if we are going to go there on historical values.

It's not necessarily a truth & historical values are distinct from my values.

You would shun them the same way the most fanatical atheist would shun religion collectively.

I already do shun religion. I shunned it before I knew what it was because I instinctively knew it was not from God.

I don't really see your point. As far as Jesus wearing white and whatnot, these are traditional Western images- white is purity (it's not racist, fanatics made it racist), angels generally having wings is rooted in Greek concept, long hair is rooted in Roman divinity (ironically), not showing hair; well that's just an Abrahamic principle from Judaism to Islam as humility.

How ironic. That a religionist that holds a tradition of interpretive pre-eminance of authoritatively infallible interpretation, would reject tradition's imagery - even to the point of diametrically opposing it.
The lack of hair was an exception, not the rule.
Unbelievable what we are willing to blind ourselves to & redefine in order to belong.

 

[Skybringr]

historical values are distinct from my value

Well that's only because you were born in this age. In a few hundred years, society might think the same of you as you think of those a few hundred years before us. In fact, this has always been the case, it's a natural part of mankind.

I already do shun religion. I shunned it before I knew what it was because I instinctively knew it was not from God.

Divine religion is simply acknowledging that there is more to the picture then vain observation of a deity.

The anti-religion argument has always been a false dichotomy of the supernatural vs man, unless it is dealing with an explicitly vain observation, like the deist brand for example.
It's just a way to shortchange the importance of religious activity in general, in tha tone can insert whatever they like.

How ironic. That a religionist that holds a tradition of interpretive pre-eminance of authoritatively infallible interpretation, would reject tradition's imagery - even to the point of diametrically opposing it.
The lack of hair was an exception, not the rule.
Unbelievable what we are willing to blind ourselves to & redefine in order to belong.

It's called art- a human working of illustrating concepts. Unless you are saying there has been some dogmatic notion regarding the imagery of Jesus or some other such thing, the point is really moot.

The only thing granted about Jesus is that he must have looked ordinary and a lot like the disciples, as the guards who searched in Gethsemane didn't know who was Christ until he identified himself.
Which means he was apparently very Mediterranean-like, probably had no long, fine hair or light skin.

The point is that I have no delusions in these regards, I am very aware of fact.

 

[Rick Otto]

I am very aware of fact.

In your special way.
Were you aware of these facts in first grade catechism?

The art betrayed the reality. Truth will out.

Hey, thanks for the discussion, bro. I gotta rack out now. G'night, brother.

 

[Skybringr]

A clergyman hopelessly entrenched in Roman Catholic dogma once taunted Tyndale with the statement, “We are better to be without God’s laws than the Pope’s”.

"A clergyman hopelessly entrenched in Roman dogma"

.. is probably extracurricular- added to inspire protest against the Church.

The truth is that the clergyman was probably just making a threat.

 

[Rick Otto]

"A clergyman hopelessly entrenched in Roman dogma"

.. is probably extracurricular- added to inspire protest against the Church.

The truth is that the clergyman was probably just making a threat.

I would believe he'd be threatening.
I believe the Church inspired the protest.

I don't believe we make as much use of hyperbole as those guys did.